Guild Wars 2

There isn’t anything that will destroy any meta build too hard in this list.

Sigil of Revelation will likely not be taken by condi builds. As for Warrs who always take Hydromancy they likely will opt for something like Sigil of Exposure or Doom

I like Sigil of Battle because it feels bursty. 4 stacks of Might on swap is fairly big as it fills ~16% of max Might availability in an instant. Strength is weaker though, but is a more passive option I guess.

Sigil of Revelation is simply way too small and weak to be able to do significant impacts to the already all-powerful Thief. Removal of Fire and Air sigils nerf Power builds like Thief et cetera, but Thief was already the best duelist in the game. Unfortunately this means Rev will be nerfed too.

Sigil of Doom nerf is amazing. 5 seconds down from 8 is pretty big IMO.

The passives are extremely weak though. These are my only gripes.

Bunkery builds will also face a slight nerf.

Sigil of Blood / Leeching being removed is great. It brings sustain and damage to the table at the same time which is simply OP.

Sigil of Nullification is buffed and I like it.

Overall I feel these changes will affect all builds in a somewhat negative impact, which is good for core builds. However, the change is insignificant as sigils have always been complimentary items that only help spice up a build. I like these changes although the passives need some work.

insanemaniac.2456:

it already is a thing and it has a 2 sec icd and no one uses it anyways

It still has its uses as a cover condi for condi builds that need it and don’t already have vuln access. In that regard I’d say it’s actually better here, since its biggest competitor (torment) is gone and the geo/doom combo is nerfed. Still not a great sigil, but at least worth considering for some builds.

Sigil of Energy is redundant. The classes that make use of constant Endurance already have a ton of passives/skills that keep it that way. No point for this Sigil rather than undoing a nerf for this specific problem.

I would say its for the classes and builds that dont have access to a bunch of effects that recover endurance.

OriOri.8724:

Anonymouse.4760:

Most importantly, there needs to be sigils that work well for other classes.

For example

sigil of sleight “increases damage dealt from the side or behind by 8%”
which would work nicely for a thief.

sigil of judgement “increase your damage dealt by 3% +1% for every boon you have” ( maximum of 8% )
this would work nicely for revenants

In this way you have control over the damage modifiers you receive, and aren’t at the mercy of whether or not your necro condi bombs a target or if your target is a boon heavy class or not. This promotes more reliable and less RNG gameplay.

Why is it that these sigils should be allowed up to 8%, when the other ones are capped at 5%? That’s the opposite of balance. This is creating sigils that are unquestionably better than alternatives, which is something that the balance team should strive to avoid

Their proposed two 5% passives are both bad and will never see serious play. They should be buffed to 8~10% along with adding this.

It basicaly looks like making sigils a lot less important. After that they will hardly have any imact on the build. Removing the duration sigils and acuracy is sad. Well ok i only used two, burn duration and the 30% stun duration ocasionaly …. Leeching is one of the strongest in any build that realy has an impact. I admit i use it regulary.

These changes are very bad for PVP. If the devs think that time to kill is too low you need to consider time to kill on bunkers.

Please make a poll for this one?

Why so many on swap sigils?

Some professions and specs, such as the current meta thief, use one set for combat and the other for utility. One might argue that it’s not a thief’s job to stand up and fight, but at the same time, these changes heavily favour professions and builds that involve actively swapping weapons in combat.

charchar.2149:

These changes are very bad for PVP. If the devs think that time to kill is too low you need to consider time to kill on bunkers.

Please make a poll for this one?

It’s fine if they keep TTK the same by balancing the classes, which Anet said they’ll do. I agree to a certain extent, that this will nerf dps, making it easier for players to get that last second CD effect; making fights last longer.

Then again we’ll never know what the TTK factor is, or the strength of these sigil’s effects. Regardless, we’ll need a whole season just to calculate that….

Really like the changes, Fire and Air sigils were way too powerful, Relevance sigil is just a great idea, not just against thieves but those annoying druid stealth spam as well.

Hoped they would be introduced this season though

I just really hope Anet focuses more on these kind of aggressive changes regardless of all the QQ here. There are still a few useless sigils but in general it brings much needed nerfs and new options. People simply don’t like nerfs.

Evan Lesh.3295:

For Sigil of Revelation, the purpose would be to pull people out of stealth, but not prevent it. Something like a 1/4 second reveal would accomplish that.

Why don’t you delete thieves all together? Have you even tried to play core thief in pvp? Do you realize you guys already nerfed dodges from thieves last patch, thus forcing them more into stealth and now you add EVEN MORE hardcounters to stealth? How did you even came to conclusion that adding such hardcounter easy access sigil was a good idea? Worst part, classes that would profit from such sigil are already countering thieves pretty hard (engis, wars).
Why don’t you give thieves a spell that disables enemies defensives for 6 sec on hit? Oh doesn’t sound like good idea all of sudden? So does such sigil.

STOP ADDING BRAINLESS HARDCOUNTERS TO ENTIRE CLASS MECHANIC /facepalm x100000000000

Also removing air and fire – are you trying to force us into bunker meta again? Have you not learned ANYTHING???!!!!! from season 1? At all?

Please, just please, before you actually even get an idea to nerf things, go make those classes and play them at high lvl in pvp. Common sense, where did it go?

Evan Lesh.3295:

We heavily reduced the available options, removed random chance, balanced existing sigils, and added some new options. Let us know what you think!

Heavily reduced the available sigils ? Really? Delete what little PVP content we have? Reveal sigil? Look at the thief players raging. All because someone THINKS that TTK is too low? ESO morrowind is around the corner, For Honor is out. People are looking to other games because of dev decisions like these. There’s no regard for the players, no diplomacy. We have a couple classes doing too much damage, can’t you just fix some tool tip damages, IE Thief, Warrior, DH? Rev got a tool-tip damage reduction right?

Please address TTK another way. RNG has nothing to do with AIR Fire and Blood sigil. Essentially this change would reduce build diversity. Forcing stricter Metas.

Poll please.

i agree that the sigil change reducing sigil impact might reduce diversity.
But i don´t see the revelation sigil being powerful. It´s extreamly situational and such sigils get rarely used unless the situation becomes overhelmingly often, which is a bad sign annyway.

If air/fire are being removed, all the crit-based zerk/marauder builds will need some buffing to compensate. If you can’t spike people, what’s the point in playing a burst build?

pls dont kill my hammer guard it was non-viable for so long and then mighty blow + JI was fixed and it’s been fun to play

Not liking the changes. At all.

We went from having 12 traits per line (the summer before the HoT release) to 9 traits per line, a sacriface needed for the new specialization structure which bodied the build variety.

Then we had the amulet variety butchered again because the PvP team was unable to balance the skills and traits and chose instead to cut the tanky ones. A sloppy and lazy move which reduced the build diversity even more.

Now you want to obliterate most of the sigils, despite as you said the current variety of usage is ridiculously low. And instead of buffing the unused ones your choice is to chop the number in half.

Man, at this point better to erase the sigils from the PvP and ban every build except one from every class in the game, so people notice how limited is currently the PvP: a fighting game with 7-10 characters/builds at most.

Is comical how ANet fixes any thing that causes them problems of balance (like the underwater combat): they just cut it off from the game.

Anet, if you really want to balance pvp, the sigils are not the place to do it. The core trait lines of elite specs need to be rethought out, or core trait lines looked at. No-one complains about sigils, they are needed for build diversity and taking away these is another weak sauce attempt at covering up questionable balance on the pvp side.

You are adding a sigil to reveal for example….how about removing some of the passive crap that comes with HOT trait lines instead; then the stealth those affected classes are using is much more acceptable.

You already created a poor diversity of builds by narrowing the number of trait lines to 3, from 5. Then you further decreased it by making the elite specs which all but make core classes (in the main) useless with a couple of exceptions. Now you want to lower it again?

FIX THE CORE BALANCE of the classes I think is something everyone wants…who even came up with the idea that sigils need to be changed? It certainly wasnt us, the people that play the game……

POLL PLEASE…..with some other options such as “do you think we should change sigils or attempt to revisit tool tip damage on every class?” and “What is the most obvious thing that needs to be addressed in pvp at the moment?” with some options. This way the people that play your game in pvp (do you even pvp?!?!) might actually be able to tell you the way forward. The post above touched on this perfectly….its comical the way you turn to this sort of thing to redress the balance problems the game has.

I’d actually argue that the trait rework from 5 lines you COULD put points into and also many people tried to use to broaden a build further and further so that no choice actually had any meaning behind it aside from: Maximize the effectiveness as high as possible, to three where you had to actually CHOOSE what your build does is a lot better than many people let on.

Does it need further work? Of course it does, every system needs that but it’s not as bad as you make it look.
Diversity is nice but the former scenario was a false diversity, having limitations, having to think about what you actually want your build to do is much better than trying to simply minimize risk or get every possible dmg-booster you can.

Maybe i’m biased though, from the start i only used 3 lines at most. 1 fully pushed and two more for grandmaster traits, 1 for damage, 1 for defense, 1 for utility. And you know what? My builds got a huge push out of that patch.
Again, that may be the reason i’m biased here but i think the current system is a lot more healthy than the former. All it needs is work.

cat.8975:

If air/fire are being removed, all the crit-based zerk/marauder builds will need some buffing to compensate. If you can’t spike people, what’s the point in playing a burst build?

pls dont kill my hammer guard it was non-viable for so long and then mighty blow + JI was fixed and it’s been fun to play

Anet just wants bunker meta from season 1 back because clearly whole pvp community enjoyed it sooooooo muuuuuuucchhhh!

Let’s embrace low skill gameplay and join DH/war bandwagon!!!! ChoooChooo.

Cynz.9437:

cat.8975:

If air/fire are being removed, all the crit-based zerk/marauder builds will need some buffing to compensate. If you can’t spike people, what’s the point in playing a burst build?

pls dont kill my hammer guard it was non-viable for so long and then mighty blow + JI was fixed and it’s been fun to play

Anet just wants bunker meta from season 1 back because clearly whole pvp community enjoyed it sooooooo muuuuuuucchhhh!

Let’s embrace low skill gameplay and join DH/war bandwagon!!!! ChoooChooo.

I’m sure that’s the reason Evan already said that he’ll talk to the Balance Team about the sustain some classes have.
Care to exaggerate some more?

What Sigil of Revelation will do is eliminate the use of Stealth Gyro for engineers, and Shadow Refuge for thieves. Since they are a visible sign of: “Somebody is in stealth here.”

Evan, pls consider adding 2 more On-Hit sigils. 1 for direct damage application and 1 for healing/sustain. Something like 300-500 damage for 1 target every 5 seconds, and a similar number as healing for 5 allies every 6-7 seconds. (these would be Sigils of Air and Water)

Also give the passive sigils another round of thinking. I think both of the new sigils should have an upper cap of 7-10%, so they would be situationally useful, and not just a downgrade from Sigil of Force. I also think you should keep Sigil of Force and Sigil of Bursting, and as they are. And give us Sigil of Malice, it can replace all of the previous +Condi duration sigils.

Yannir.4132:

What Sigil of Revelation will do is eliminate the use of Stealth Gyro for engineers, and Shadow Refuge for thieves. Since they are a visible sign of: “Somebody is in stealth here.”

Evan, pls consider adding 2 more On-Hit sigils. 1 for direct damage application and 1 for healing/sustain. Something like 300-500 damage for 1 target every 5 seconds, and a similar number as healing for 5 allies every 6-7 seconds. (these would be Sigils of Air and Water)

Also give the passive sigils another round of thinking. I think both of the new sigils should have an upper cap of 7-10%, so they would be situationally useful, and not just a downgrade from Sigil of Force. I also think you should keep Sigil of Force and Sigil of Bursting, and as they are. And give us Sigil of Malice, it can replace all of the previous +Condi duration sigils.

If anything they should just rework refuge at this point. The amount of hardcounters to it is absurd and doesn’t make any sense anymore.

@Evan: please add sigil of poor decisions – disables blocks, invuls, heals and immunities on enemies in area on crit hit, 9 sec CD. Since it apparently became a fashion to add sigils with hardcounter to entire class mechanic, i think such sigil would fit very well in the overall balancing picture~

Cynz.9437:

Yannir.4132:

What Sigil of Revelation will do is eliminate the use of Stealth Gyro for engineers, and Shadow Refuge for thieves. Since they are a visible sign of: “Somebody is in stealth here.”

Evan, pls consider adding 2 more On-Hit sigils. 1 for direct damage application and 1 for healing/sustain. Something like 300-500 damage for 1 target every 5 seconds, and a similar number as healing for 5 allies every 6-7 seconds. (these would be Sigils of Air and Water)

Also give the passive sigils another round of thinking. I think both of the new sigils should have an upper cap of 7-10%, so they would be situationally useful, and not just a downgrade from Sigil of Force. I also think you should keep Sigil of Force and Sigil of Bursting, and as they are. And give us Sigil of Malice, it can replace all of the previous +Condi duration sigils.

If anything they should just rework refuge at this point. The amount of hardcounters to it is absurd and doesn’t make any sense anymore.

I’d be curious what you see as hardcounter to it. Aside the obvious since it is stationary and there for any AoE will hit people hiding it. People say all the time that Stealth got nerfed hard by hard counters, but really, how many are there that are present in EVERY ROUND with your thief.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Cynz.9437:

Yannir.4132:

What Sigil of Revelation will do is eliminate the use of Stealth Gyro for engineers, and Shadow Refuge for thieves. Since they are a visible sign of: “Somebody is in stealth here.”

Evan, pls consider adding 2 more On-Hit sigils. 1 for direct damage application and 1 for healing/sustain. Something like 300-500 damage for 1 target every 5 seconds, and a similar number as healing for 5 allies every 6-7 seconds. (these would be Sigils of Air and Water)

Also give the passive sigils another round of thinking. I think both of the new sigils should have an upper cap of 7-10%, so they would be situationally useful, and not just a downgrade from Sigil of Force. I also think you should keep Sigil of Force and Sigil of Bursting, and as they are. And give us Sigil of Malice, it can replace all of the previous +Condi duration sigils.

If anything they should just rework refuge at this point. The amount of hardcounters to it is absurd and doesn’t make any sense anymore.

I’d be curious what you see as hardcounter to it. Aside the obvious since it is stationary and there for any AoE will hit people hiding it. People say all the time that Stealth got nerfed hard by hard counters, but really, how many are there that are present in EVERY ROUND with your thief.

Revs have reveal on demand and it is part of meta build, same goes for engis.
Surely meta thief runs DD but given nerfs to endurance gains last patch, thief will have to camp stealth even more. I would also highly suggest you to try to play core thief. You will know what i mean by hardcounters.
As far as frequency goes, those counters are in every match, there is always an engi and always stacks of DHs with their trap spam.

Cynz.9437:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Cynz.9437:

Yannir.4132:

What Sigil of Revelation will do is eliminate the use of Stealth Gyro for engineers, and Shadow Refuge for thieves. Since they are a visible sign of: “Somebody is in stealth here.”

Evan, pls consider adding 2 more On-Hit sigils. 1 for direct damage application and 1 for healing/sustain. Something like 300-500 damage for 1 target every 5 seconds, and a similar number as healing for 5 allies every 6-7 seconds. (these would be Sigils of Air and Water)

Also give the passive sigils another round of thinking. I think both of the new sigils should have an upper cap of 7-10%, so they would be situationally useful, and not just a downgrade from Sigil of Force. I also think you should keep Sigil of Force and Sigil of Bursting, and as they are. And give us Sigil of Malice, it can replace all of the previous +Condi duration sigils.

If anything they should just rework refuge at this point. The amount of hardcounters to it is absurd and doesn’t make any sense anymore.

I’d be curious what you see as hardcounter to it. Aside the obvious since it is stationary and there for any AoE will hit people hiding it. People say all the time that Stealth got nerfed hard by hard counters, but really, how many are there that are present in EVERY ROUND with your thief.

Revs have reveal on demand and it is part of meta build, same goes for engis.
Surely meta thief runs DD but given nerfs to endurance gains last patch, thief will have to camp stealth even more. I would also highly suggest you to try to play core thief. You will know what i mean by hardcounters.
As far as frequency goes, those counters are in every match, there is always an engi and always stacks of DHs with their trap spam.

So that’s 2 classes with an actual counter, since most other skills that apply reveal need a target (which goes totally against the point of this debuff) and you asume that every single engi/rev will use his skills in such a way that you are never able to use your stealth skills, not to mention that it’s been quite some time since i saw Shadow Refuge.
And the DH, well, yes, he’s ever present and i doubt we will see him go away.

I actually play core thief, WHEN i Play thief that is, daredevil doesn’t feel to me like it offers much aside extra evade.
Will i win against certain builds? Nope, i won’t, but it’s been that way before revealed was a thing and before Scrapper or Revenant were.

As was pointed out the sigil actually doesn’t go much beyond melee range, i even doubt that many people will use it because of that exact reason.
I for one am curious to see these changes play out, and i don’t even hate thieves, everyone playing one and actually helping their team win has my deepest respect.

Cynz.9437:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Cynz.9437:

Yannir.4132:

What Sigil of Revelation will do is eliminate the use of Stealth Gyro for engineers, and Shadow Refuge for thieves. Since they are a visible sign of: “Somebody is in stealth here.”

Evan, pls consider adding 2 more On-Hit sigils. 1 for direct damage application and 1 for healing/sustain. Something like 300-500 damage for 1 target every 5 seconds, and a similar number as healing for 5 allies every 6-7 seconds. (these would be Sigils of Air and Water)

Also give the passive sigils another round of thinking. I think both of the new sigils should have an upper cap of 7-10%, so they would be situationally useful, and not just a downgrade from Sigil of Force. I also think you should keep Sigil of Force and Sigil of Bursting, and as they are. And give us Sigil of Malice, it can replace all of the previous +Condi duration sigils.

If anything they should just rework refuge at this point. The amount of hardcounters to it is absurd and doesn’t make any sense anymore.

I’d be curious what you see as hardcounter to it. Aside the obvious since it is stationary and there for any AoE will hit people hiding it. People say all the time that Stealth got nerfed hard by hard counters, but really, how many are there that are present in EVERY ROUND with your thief.

Revs have reveal on demand and it is part of meta build, same goes for engis.
Surely meta thief runs DD but given nerfs to endurance gains last patch, thief will have to camp stealth even more. I would also highly suggest you to try to play core thief. You will know what i mean by hardcounters.
As far as frequency goes, those counters are in every match, there is always an engi and always stacks of DHs with their trap spam.

I can count on one hand the number of revs I saw in platinum last season, the only reason it’s not one finger I can count on is because I saw 2. That’s without mentioning that thief currently counters rev pretty well even without stealth.

No core build is viable, you think it’s bad on core thief? Go play core mesmer. See how much of a bad arguement that is talking about core specs?

DH are just stupid atm, likewise warriors as they didn’t fix what needed to be fixed on either of them though at least the spear is easier to dodge. Warriors need berserker burst skills to count as lvl 1 or 2 burst skills and DH needed the blocks and health regeneration toning down a bit for a marauder amulet build.

I honestly don’t think the revelation sigil will have much impact, the radius is pretty small and all it does is prevent stealth escapes at best. Stealth openers will still work as target isn’t in combat and a stealth plus 1 will usually work unless they run double revelation sigil, even then the chances of getting that reveal off on a precast backstab+steal combo is as likely to happen as ANet balancing elite specs.

Don’t get me wrong I think the sigil is a dumb solution to a dumb problem but there’s no need to start an Oscar winning performance of the end of the world. If the next expansion is like Heart of Thorns this game and company will be dead, too many cheesed off players from all aspects of the game, which is a shame as I’d like to see what the end of the story was.

Paul from PZ sums up my thoughts on the rest of the changes nicely on the front page.

LouWolfskin.3492:

not to mention that it’s been quite some time since i saw Shadow Refuge.

I actually saw one thief using it in a ranked yesterday. He was pretty bad but anyway.

Ithilwen.1529:

Wait! You’re going to give conditions on-hit?

This means, for example, that a warrior can do a massive multi hit dps burst AND inflict stacked conditions at the same time? You’re talking about nuke level damage for War and ranger.

This will more or less turbo charge damage. That’s precisely the opposite of what we need.

I’m sure that 1 extra bleed stack is going to lead to a extinction event.

Crinn.7864:

Somehow I doubt that Sigil of revelation is going to be used that much. It requires dropping a damage or cleanse sigil (which is useful against all opponents) for something that isn’t useful against all opponents.

You pick your Sigils before the match begins. Yes, it’ll be used in every Thief, Mesmer, Druid and potentially Scrapper opponent teams.

It’s not just Thief. This has a profound impact on a 3 of 9 of 4 of 9 post-HoT classes as it directly counters a significant defense/escape mechanism.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Cynz.9437:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Cynz.9437:

Yannir.4132:

What Sigil of Revelation will do is eliminate the use of Stealth Gyro for engineers, and Shadow Refuge for thieves. Since they are a visible sign of: “Somebody is in stealth here.”

Evan, pls consider adding 2 more On-Hit sigils. 1 for direct damage application and 1 for healing/sustain. Something like 300-500 damage for 1 target every 5 seconds, and a similar number as healing for 5 allies every 6-7 seconds. (these would be Sigils of Air and Water)

Also give the passive sigils another round of thinking. I think both of the new sigils should have an upper cap of 7-10%, so they would be situationally useful, and not just a downgrade from Sigil of Force. I also think you should keep Sigil of Force and Sigil of Bursting, and as they are. And give us Sigil of Malice, it can replace all of the previous +Condi duration sigils.

If anything they should just rework refuge at this point. The amount of hardcounters to it is absurd and doesn’t make any sense anymore.

I’d be curious what you see as hardcounter to it. Aside the obvious since it is stationary and there for any AoE will hit people hiding it. People say all the time that Stealth got nerfed hard by hard counters, but really, how many are there that are present in EVERY ROUND with your thief.

Revs have reveal on demand and it is part of meta build, same goes for engis.
Surely meta thief runs DD but given nerfs to endurance gains last patch, thief will have to camp stealth even more. I would also highly suggest you to try to play core thief. You will know what i mean by hardcounters.
As far as frequency goes, those counters are in every match, there is always an engi and always stacks of DHs with their trap spam.

So that’s 2 classes with an actual counter, since most other skills that apply reveal need a target (which goes totally against the point of this debuff) and you asume that every single engi/rev will use his skills in such a way that you are never able to use your stealth skills, not to mention that it’s been quite some time since i saw Shadow Refuge.
And the DH, well, yes, he’s ever present and i doubt we will see him go away.

I actually play core thief, WHEN i Play thief that is, daredevil doesn’t feel to me like it offers much aside extra evade.
Will i win against certain builds? Nope, i won’t, but it’s been that way before revealed was a thing and before Scrapper or Revenant were.

As was pointed out the sigil actually doesn’t go much beyond melee range, i even doubt that many people will use it because of that exact reason.
I for one am curious to see these changes play out, and i don’t even hate thieves, everyone playing one and actually helping their team win has my deepest respect.

Revs always use that skill, it is part of their rotation.
Engis (unless they are bad) will use this skill, especially when team is focusing thief.
Yeah, take a wild guess why people don’t use RF? Great reason why Anet should add even MORE reasons NOT to use RF…… /faceplam.
Let’s accept the state of DH and let low skill players ride easy games? You actually think this is acceptable?
Actually before reveal was a thing, core thief was viable. Then Anet started to throw reveal around like a candy which made DD mandatory on first place, at some point you just hit the wall on core thief where reveal becomes a real issue along with all other candies other classes received while Anet was too busy finding way to nerf thief yet again.
I think it is wrong and was probably worst balancing decision that has been done in this game along with making elite specs stupidly broken compared to core.

Bottom line, i find it extremely wrong to introduce spells/items that present extreme hardcounters to entire class mechanic. I have no idea why it is just thieves the balancing team targets so much as far as hardcounters go, but think about, what if started adding spells/items that prevent shatters, disable virtrues etc. It is just beyond stupid and reeks of class favoritism (or discrimination in this case).

Why remove air/blood/fire? The excuse that there be no RNG sigils is super weak. They’re hardly RNG if you have sufficient precision, as it should be. It prevents bunkers from taking them. Removing them just pushes bunker and condi meta which is absolutely garbage.

Force and 10% condi duration instead of the two 0-5% sigils should be put in.
One healing like water and one damage on hit like air or fire would also be useful unless its an intended direct damage nerf. It might be OK to remove/change condi, direct damage and healing. But i would realy replace the two permasigild with one simple power (force) and one condi duration (malice) but not bursting.

Too funny if sigil of revelation is just to counter stealth on other classes why have the stealth on the other classes.. Lmao. Oh right balance team can’t balance. NO idea why all these sigils are being thought up instead of actually balancing the game by reducing the huge damage. It doesn’t work you got people with slower computers, skills being used which you can barely react to and traits which have over tuned abilities of boosting damage. (less is more)

Is Spvp really that out of touch/no control of the balancing of the game? I heard it before but it is 100% true I feel bad.. working with nothing but playing with sigils and amulets to fix no balance lol. (Sorry before we have people say we have balance, having 1 meta build for each class wont sustain a game. .the pvp season is already proving that one.. zero hype and many opting out.

ROLLBACK CHANGES FROM JUNE 2015 TRAIT REVAMP AND GAMEPLAY TO FIX THE ISSUE. SIGILS WONT DO ANYTHING.

People forget that the change to endurance regeneration even influences the current issues as people cannot avoid the big damage (only issue for this change was the instant regeneration brought on by sigil of energy which for some reason wasn’t touched until AFTER the nerf of endurance.. why mess around with the base games balance is mind boggling… original team of gw2 knew exactly what they were doing.) You can disagree all you want he re but there was nothing wrong with the endurance for years on release until people all started to keep using sigil of energy for instant 50 endurance every 9 seconds.. on swap…..

Even the pre-release beta testing HoT Elite specs had balance compared to them being tinkered from then after their beta phase… man just look back at the first purposed Hot traits yourselves.

Please don’t remove the swap-damage component of Hydro/Geomancy, even if you nerf the damage to oblivion. One of the best applications of it was to surprise burst thieves trying to maintain blind on you and with this proposal that’s just not even possible anymore.

Sigil of Earth
On hit: Inflict Bleeding (5 Seconds)
(Cooldown: 3 Seconds)
I should do the math on how high the stack can be with 100% condi duration

Sigil of Frailty
On hit: Inflict Vulnerability (10 Seconds)
(Cooldown: 3 Seconds)
I suppose this could work for Valkyrie Necro, an extra stack is 2% crit chance.

Sigil of Strength
On hit: Gain Might (10 Seconds)
(Cooldown: 3 Second)
_On hit sigils need more options though. Why not make nullification and generosity an On Hit Sigil? the amount of boons. 1 boon strip per 3 seconds isn’t so bad. _

On-Swap:
Sigil of Agility
Gain 5 seconds of swiftness and 1 second of quickness when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
with the removal of air and fire sigils which at this point are mandatory for all power builds, more classes will be willing to use this. I noticed that this sigil hasn’t changed at all and the fact that people think this is an addition is proof that they haven’t been using this at all xD

Sigil of Doom
Your next attack after you swap to this weapon while in combat inflicts Poison (5 seconds).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Poison is annoying condition in my opinion. even with 0 Condition damage, healing is reduced by a full 33%. I really don’t like this sigil at all. I wish you’d bring back the sigil of torment though.

Sigil of Energy
Gain 25% of your endurance when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 seconds)
As opposed to vigor? I mean 25% isn’t so bad since endurance is always regenerating. At least unlike Vigor this isn’t corruptable so I think this is a good change.

Sigil of Exposure
Your next attack after you swap to this weapon while in combat inflicts 5 stacks of Vulnerability (5 Seconds).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Yeaaaah, kinda weird but I guess we’ll have to use say auto attack before our burst combo for this to be effective. If we use our burst move right after switching, we’ll get no benefit from this. I suppose it’s just a tiny change to rotation and is a good addition otherwise.

Sigil of Stagnation
Cripple nearby foes when swapping to this weapon while in combat (3 seconds, 240 Radius).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Cripple’s a pretty annoying condition. I’d like to use this, cripple can sometimes mean the difference between kiting and escape. I’d like to see this in the game.

Sigil of Hydromancy
Chill nearby foes for when you swap to this weapon while in combat (2 Seconds, 240 Radius).
(Cooldown: 9 seconds)
Chill is such a strong condition, I hope you do remove the damage

Sigil of Intelligence
Your next three attacks after swapping to this weapon while in combat have a 100% critical chance.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Not really something I used. This is kind of pointless since the on crit sigils will be removed and classes that relied on Precision procs will run loads of precision anyway. I think this sigil should just be removed

Sigil of Nullification
Your next attack after you swap to this weapon while in combat removes a Boon from your target.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
in my opinion, it’s better as an on hit sigil.

Sigil of Revelation
Reveal nearby foes when swapping to this weapon while in combat (240 Radius).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Not sure why people are complaining about this sigil. Thieves use stealth to move around the map and normally steal then burst combo anyway. They usually teleport away THEN stealth to run away. Thief can easily create distance via their dodge so I really don’t see this as a major thief.

I suppose this means that thief’s stealth skills will be harder to pull off. So to be fair to then, I think this should be an “On Swap, reveal enemies you hit”. This would reward target prediction and allow thieves to get that much needed backstab to enemies not in the fray.

Sigil of Escape
Remove immobilize from yourself when swapping to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
how about a remove chill sigil and poison as well? I really like these boon removals/condition cleanse that prioritize specific boon/conditions. I really want a boon strip prioritizing stability and resistance.

Sigil of Lethargy
Pity this will be removed. I was thinking of potential burst combos with Chrono danger time but oh well :9

Sigil of Cleansing
New: Remove 1 condition when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds) I’d imagine warriors could use this. traited, they could remove 2, also revs on legend swap. I was thinking of making it 2 condis but then thinking of warriors cleansing more condis really bothers me.

Passive
Sigil of Punishment
Deal 1% extra damage per boon on your foe. Maximum 5%.
I think you should remove the limit on this one. Keep the limit on compounding. I’m gonna miss Sigil of Paralyzation and Impact. Accuracy was removed, thank heavens for that.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Windwalker.7421:

I’m probably misunderstanding something, but I’m having a hard time making out any “goal” from these changes, aside from drastically reducing the available options…and thus continuing down a road of less build diversity.

Shaking my head in disbelief here…

O Captain! My Captain!

These are the goals from the other post:

Our high-level goals include reducing RNG gameplay, promoting counter-play, reducing raw damage output, and removing ineffective choices.

Right now we have the illusion of diversity. There are plenty of sigils that nobody uses.

I agree that the goal of reducing raw damage and RNG will be acieved. The sigils are all low powered compared to the current most used.
While there were plenty unused sigils i think there also were a good number of used one´s. E.G while i expect stun and burn duration was used, the rest not. Acuraccy was useful for some builds too. Shure if you look at meta it was low. Things like leeching and hydromancy was to outstanding.
It´s a change. At lease i see 3-4 useful for me. Options are the same for all players so OK …
And as a note. Intelligence is unchanged. It was already used in some competent builds. After removing all good competitiors this might get one of the most used.

Ithilwen.1529:

Wait! You’re going to give conditions on-hit?

This means, for example, that a warrior can do a massive multi hit dps burst AND inflict stacked conditions at the same time? You’re talking about nuke level damage for War and ranger.

This will more or less turbo charge damage. That’s precisely the opposite of what we need.

You know the sigils have an ICD right?

Thanks for the ninja nerf to engis who run elixir s and stealth gyro. :slow clap:

So I understand that there are very few sigils being used. But, I think this is a drastic change. It’s impacts on what Professions will be used in the meta will be substantial.

It’s quite literally, removing the current sigil meta throwing in something new and saying figure it out. Do we understand how the DPS redux will impact power builds? How will condi builds be impacted.

If you have a stealth class, 3 players from a team can take a 9 second cool down reveal, eliminating the defense of an entire build by just swapping weapons. That’s 3 reveals every 3 seconds potentially with just 3 characters.

Currently my opinion of this approach is that it’s rushed and not thought through enough.

I think if you are looking to make sigil changes the approach you should take is to start nerfing the overused ones, get rid of the sigils you think aren’t useful, and introduce new sigils you think would be good.

so…. bunkers it is boys…. bunkers it is.

Spartacus.3192:

Ithilwen.1529:

Wait! You’re going to give conditions on-hit?

This means, for example, that a warrior can do a massive multi hit dps burst AND inflict stacked conditions at the same time? You’re talking about nuke level damage for War and ranger.

This will more or less turbo charge damage. That’s precisely the opposite of what we need.

You know the sigils have an ICD right?

I posted about this earlier on the thread, but it got buried.

Warrior with Fast Hands stands to gain significantly from a shift to this new system where almost all sigils are on-swap. Think about the cycle of weapon swap sigils with 5 seconds recharge— you can activate a unique pair of procedures every 5 seconds, or twice as often as other classes. To a lesser extent, Revenant gains an advantage as well.

This advantage was significant before, but lessened by the fact that on-crit, on-hit, and passive sigils work better for classes that camp a weapon or lack weapon swapping.

Meanwhile, classes like Engineer and Elementalist are hit quite hard by the lack of viable on-hit and removal of on-crit sigils. These classes do not gain two sets of sigils as they just have one weapon, which limits them significantly when weapon swap sigils are prioritized. They also need to swap kits/attunements at non opportune times simply to operate in a PvP setting and activate skills.

Just to add: what are the sigil options available to a traditional Static Discharge Engineer running no kits? I know this is not a viable meta build, but it is a build that was recently buffed and would be absolutely useless in this new paradigm with regards to sigil options.

There are no interesting sigils for thief. I would like to see poison on hit sigil.

NeXeD.3042:

so…. bunkers it is boys…. bunkers it is.

They did say in this thread that when this goes live they want to ship it with cuts to sustain as well. Which is awesome, both sustain and raw damage are currently too high, would be nice to cut down on both at the same time

OriOri.8724:

NeXeD.3042:

so…. bunkers it is boys…. bunkers it is.

They did say in this thread that when this goes live they want to ship it with cuts to sustain as well. Which is awesome, both sustain and raw damage are currently too high, would be nice to cut down on both at the same time

if thats the case then good, but they better not hit all classes with sustain nerfs…. there are a few that i hardly think need that

removing leech sigils is already a sustain cut. Also no water/renewal.
Well warrior could get a shave ….. Change adrenal health to be regeneration pulse. So it won´t stack with nomal regen.

Before I begin what will probably be a lengthy and poorly formatted post, I just want to say I’m happy this is being discussed. Even if these changes go through largely unchanged I will feel like I got to voice my opinion on it at least.

I don’t dislike most of this. I like most of the weapon swap additions, I even thought the slow sigil would have been fine if reduced to 1s, I see that as comparable to other weapon swap effects. (leeching, doom, agility) I think adding a condition cleanse on swap is actually a needed addition right. I like changing might to an on hit instead of an on crit. I think the passive sigils are well designed replacements for sigil of force and are situational, which makes them interesting.

What I really don’t like about this list is the context around it, specifically that sigils not listed here would be removed. That would mean thirty-four sigils would be removed as it stands, not including sigils listed here but changed. That, to me, seems like a large amount of sigils. I understand that these changes intend to balance out and set a table more or less for the power sigils provide, and that’s admirable, but I think that can be achieved without homogenizing build options to such a degree. 34/43 sigils currently in the game would be removing 79% of our options. Even with the additional eight sigils proposed in the OP that’s still only seventeen sigil options.

Sigils that activate on critical hits are pretty important to the game in my opinion. Having certain sigil effects gated behind actually landing critical hits is something I think is both good for balance, and something that adds a lot to making builds, it makes critting more desirable than it would be otherwise. I like changing Sigil of Might to an on hit instead, as I think might stacking isn’t something that needs to be gated behind crits. But I disagree with changing Sigil of Earth to an on hit. I think having a bleed on hit that doesn’t require landing critical hits consistently (ie, taking precision or a trait that gives you crit chance) would be giving free condition damage from a sigil that to builds that currently don’t have access to. No, it wouldn’t be game breaking but it would shift more power into builds that already have plenty.

There are many classes and many builds that do not rely on weapon swapping on maximum cooldown, or that rely on weapon swaps for special purposes and so only do it rarely. These classes are going to be punished heavily by these changes. Revs, Eles, Engis and Warriors are all going to have a ton more options to utilize to full potential, while classes like Necros, Thieves and Guardians will have a majority of their options taken away, forcing them to awkwardly use on swap sigils in many cases. There should be a set amount of dps a balanced sigil can provide if proced on CD repeatedly, only differing in means of procing (on hit, on crit, or on swap) and application (direct damage, lifesteal, conditions). Sigil of Blood might leech 450 on kitten CD and Sigil of Leeching might leech 900 on a 9s CD, but over the course of 30s they will both give the same benefit if used on cooldown, so you would take the one you think will be more be more frequently procing. The idea would be sigils are not able to be abused because everyone SHOULD be able to find sigils they can proc on CD if they are playing well. If there are builds that are excluded from using this system, people will either work around it (to their disadvantage), largely ignore the sigil system, or find a build that makes better use of weapon swaps.

I think I’m going to post my own list of proposed sigils. It might be boring to read but I think it would more clearly express what I think sigils should and should not do in pvp.

just saying necro ds counts as a wep swap so it wont hurt them too much

Julius Seizure.4985:

Warrior with Fast Hands stands to gain significantly from a shift to this new system where almost all sigils are on-swap. Think about the cycle of weapon swap sigils with 5 seconds recharge— you can activate a unique pair of procedures every 5 seconds, or twice as often as other classes. To a lesser extent, Revenant gains an advantage as well.

Correct me if im wrong but I don’t see any On Swap sigils that have a 5 sec CD. All of them are 9 sec as usual.

But yes Warrior stands to gain most since they have always been able to use 4 on swap sigils and fast hands

Sigil of compounding + power necro = wow, let me give up… again…
Sigil of punishment vs necro = wow, did this exist… give up…. again…

Discapline still a main trait for warrior, sadly, I was hoping for a more open build thanks to these sigil changes. just a thought for later changes, maybe open warriors build up.

Well, I made a wall of text. Originally each section had an explanation but the post was too long, so hopeful my wall speaks for itself.
/wall of text

Chance on Crit

Sigil of Fire
75% chance: Trigger a Flameblast for (400+10% Power) Damage, 240 AoE
(CD: 5s)

Sigil of Air
75% chance: Trigger a Lightning Strike for (400+20% Power) Damage,
(CD: 5s)

Sigil of Blood
50% chance: Steal life, dealing (400+10% Power) damage and healing for (300+10% Healing Power)
(CD: 5s)

Sigil of Earth
75% chance: Cause bleeding for 5s
(CD: 5s)

Sigil of Tormenting
75% chance: Cause torment for 3s
(CD: 5s)

Chance on Hit

Sigil of Strength
50% chance: Gain Might (3 Stacks, 5 Seconds)
(CD: 10s)

Sigil of Rage
50% chance: Gain Fury (5 Seconds)
(CD: 10s)

Sigil of Nullification
50% chance: Remove a Boon from your target.
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Generosity
50% chance: Transfer a Condition to your target.
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Frailty
50% chance: Inflict Vulnerability (10 Seconds)
(CD: 5s)

Sigil of Ice
50% chance: Inflict Chill (2 Seconds)
(CD: 5s)

Sigil of Blight
50% Chance: Inflict Weakness (3 Seconds)
(CD: 5s)

On Weapon Swap

Sigil of Agility
Gain 5 seconds of swiftness and 1 second of quickness when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Battle
Gain 3 stacks of might (10 seconds) when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Energy
Gain 25% of your endurance when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Cleansing
Remove 1 condition when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Doom
Your next attack after you swap to this weapon while in combat inflicts Poison (5 seconds).
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Lethargy
Your next attack after swapping to this weapon while in combat slows your target (1 Seconds).
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Geomancy
Your next attack after you swap to this weapon while in combat inflicts 3 stacks of bleeding (5s).
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Hydromancy
Hit nearby foes when you swap to this weapon while in combat, inflicting chill (2s) and dealing (100+10% of Power) damage (240 Radius).
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Stagnation
Hit nearby foes when you swap to this weapon while in combat, inflicting cripple (3s) and dealing (100+10% of Power) damage (240 Radius).
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Leeching
Steal life from nearby foes when you swap to this weapon while in combat, dealing (100+10% of Power) damage and healing (75+10% of Healing Power) (240 Radius).
(CD: 9s)

Sigil of Intelligence
Your next three attacks after swapping to this weapon while in combat have a 100% critical chance.
(CD: 9s)

Passive

Sigil of Compounding
Deal 1% extra damage per condition applied your foe.

Sigil of Punishment
Deal 1% extra damage per Boon applied to your foe.

Sigil of Anguish
Deal 1% extra damage per Condition applied to you.

Sigil of Judgement
Deal 1% extra damage per Boon applied to you.

Sigil of Ruthlessness
Critical Hits Deal 10% extra Damage

Sigil of Smouldering
Burning deals 10% more damage

Sigil of Venom
Poison deals 10% more damage

Sigil of Agony
Bleeding deals 10% more damage

On Kill

Sigil of Cruelty
Gain a charge of +10 Ferocity each time you kill a foe, five if you kill an enemy player.

Sigil of Perception
Gain a charge of +10 Precision each time you kill a foe, five if you kill an enemy player.

Sigil of Life
Gain a charge of +10 Healing Power each time you kill a foe, five if you kill an enemy player.

Sigil of Corruption
Gain a charge of +5 Expertise each time you kill a foe, five if you kill an enemy player.

Sigil of Inspiration
Gain a charge of +5 Concentration each time you kill a foe, five if you kill an enemy player.

CMC, I’m like 80% sure you’re the reason for on crit removal since it’ll buff the kitten out of your terrible warrior. YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND BALANCE WELL ENOUGH FOR THE GAME TO BE BALANCED AFTER THIS CHANGE.

PERIOD.

This game is literally dying and a change like this would kill off PVP even more.

The ONLY way this change should happen is if you take a lot of advice from good players. I mean like get Karl and Evan into a discord with at least 10-20 good players to explain everything that would HAVE to change for balance to be healthy.

Sigils that give conditions – like exposure , needs a tick like intelligence cause it can get lose to cleave / pets / clones/ or random binding roots (ancient seeds) or something.