"Skill" and other "4 letter" sPvP concepts

"Skill" and other "4 letter" sPvP concepts

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Posted by: Soothsayer.9206

Soothsayer.9206

After reading posts in spvp since the beginning of S2, there are topics that have clearly emerged with regard to its current state of affairs. More particularly, MMR and how it effects discussions on player skill, rank, and progress. Many of these posts include people who like to let it be known to the rest of the Guild Wars sPvP community that they are “elite” and the rest of us just need to get as good as they are. They enjoy an “exclusive” status (hence wanting to keep it that way) and would have us believe that most of them “earned” their way to said status by their will to power over their teams, in some cases, and all cases, over their enemies. It begs the question, “do their statements and comments necessarily follow from their premise about skill and exclusivity?”

For example, “skill,” could have everything to do with a player’s proficiency, prowess, and ability to adapt to multiple teams, environments, and tactical circumstances all at the same time with incredible, even mind numbing success all the time, every single match, and that without exception. Having stated that somewhat tongue and cheek, I honestly believe that there are those who really can play at extremely high levels, but they are neither perfect nor are they always on top of their game. Rather, they are students of themselves, of their team(s), of their opponents, professions and environments. They are very good, even great, because they invest the time and energy to all aspects of the game and by wondering what they could do to be better individually while they are considering how they can be good for the sake of the collective whole of a team. This is what I believe about the vast majority of GW2 sPvP players or we wouldn’t be in a competitive environment to begin with. They do not feel the need to tell others how bad others are in order to let others know how “good” they, themselves are.

It is equally likely that some of those “legendary” players have found multiple ways of manipulating circumstances to their favor using the current MMR format. Whether its by their multiple accounts, professions, time of day, trolling others, even their computer gear (sorry can’t justify spending $100+ on a mouse or keyboard or $3000 on a new system – [have Asus g75w with Fios in case you are curious]- players sometimes have superior equipment but that still does not equate skill). So all of this talk about “exclusivity” with respect to “skill” is really a mirage because there are multiple ways to explain it away in this current environment without actually having to posses it. In other words, you really don’t have to be skilled, you can claim it by denigrating others who have not legitimately achieved it yet.

The other thing that is troublesome is when some talk about “carrying” your team. Anyone who has every played a competitive team sport knows that’s garbage. You can do a lot of things; primarily keep your team from losing by minimizing your errors and playing up to your potential, but you cannot “carry” an entire team, just not possible in a format geared for team rather than individual play. For example, if in sPvP you have 1 great player, 1 good player and 3 bad players versus a team of 4 good players and 1 bad player, give me the 4 good players simply based upon law of averages. No matter what that “great” player might be capable of, the numbers are just going to be stacked against him. Wait! He’s supposed to be “great,” “legendary,” even “pro” level but there are so many other things outside his control, he’s going to lose because its a team format. Let’s put this another way; 1 player = 20% (just playing up to his potential) of his team’s output, 80% is out of his control(playing up to their potential). So, if you are not on an established team, your odds of success are very low indeed if you have to “carry” a team even for 1 match. Not to mention if the other team knows who is the strength on the opposing team, they will find a way to minimize your contribution – you will be harried the entire or remainder of a match(team sports like football or basketball do this all the time).

My proposal is simply this, stop basing individual MMR on team wins/loses especially in solo que. Rather base individual MMR on other factors already being used in game which are a part of individual statistics: e.g. damage/condi-damage, players killed, etc, but not on total points in a match (I think this would penalize those who bunker/anchor for their teams – although you might be able to use defending capture points for that). So that your MMR is based on YOUR contribution rather than the success, or lack of success, of your team and its ability to win in the solo que. I always play hard in solo que, sometime I feel like a nut, sometimes I am one. If my team is substantially lower in ability(sometimes it is, and the reverse is true too because I have been on teams where I knew I was with others who are much better than me), then there should be ways of collecting those statistics and using them to gage both my skill level and my ability to contribute to a team. I know this is beset with issues, but its the only way that I can think of that keeps my MMR rating in my control, based on my contribution, and based on my current level of play rather than dependent upon others.

Finally, If the system were truly a fair mesure of skill for all, it would have to include balancing builds so that they would have multiple, viable builds and/or roles (including hard counters and built in weaknesses-might actually effect team composition if it were already so). Getting rid of certain items (e.g. amulets) because people exploit them is only a short term solution that creates a void if not properly filled with corresponding and reasonable buffs/nerfs. Furthermore, that system should also exclude externals, whether or not you can exploit mechanical features and, or even simply having a better computer apparatus; it would level the playing field for all (e.g. using standard keyboard and mouse set up – no key bindings). It would also include a way for people who seek to improve by rewarding them for good and consistant contributions (individual stats and overall rank should mean something) rather than rewarding those who think they already have it and just try to deny it to others based on false premises and assumptions or just simply grinding (well, some grinding should always be necessary, helps develop character).

Kyrie eleison…Dies irae, dies illa…Quando judex est venturus

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Posted by: Fivedawgs.4267

Fivedawgs.4267

Classic !!! Just a classic… however, on your penultimate paragraph, trust me I love the idea but in order for it to be impremented, Anet has to make it so support get point by cleaning condition and what now… but this thread is a classic..

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Posted by: Spartacus.3192

Spartacus.3192

Good post.

All stats should be used along with damage dealth etc, like Healing self/others, Boons applied self/others. Conditions cleared self/others. So as you said every style of player can be accounted for.

Your typical average gamer -
“Buff my main class, nerf everything else. "

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Posted by: Exciton.8942

Exciton.8942

No no and no. Personal statistics is a terrible terrible metric to judge performance, I could argue it is even worse than personal score.

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

But… isnt “skill” 5 letters? :/

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Posted by: Spartacus.3192

Spartacus.3192

No no and no. Personal statistics is a terrible terrible metric to judge performance, I could argue it is even worse than personal score.

I would be ineterested to hear why not? Of course i agree that personal score is useless but thats very different to personal stats. At least if there was some intelligent way to take into account the different roles people tend to play. DPS, Bruiser, Support, Bunker, etc.

Your typical average gamer -
“Buff my main class, nerf everything else. "

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Posted by: Exciton.8942

Exciton.8942

No no and no. Personal statistics is a terrible terrible metric to judge performance, I could argue it is even worse than personal score.

I would be ineterested to hear why not? Of course i agree that personal score is useless but thats very different to personal stats. At least if there was some intelligent way to take into account the different roles people tend to play. DPS, Bruiser, Support, Bunker, etc.

okay, let me give you some scenarios.

An engi contesting an enemy controlled far point, fighting 1v2. Engi’s teammates fighting a 4v3 at mid. So obviously the four teammates will gain way more personal stats compared to the engi, because they are not only in a teamfight(AOE give you more stats) but also outnumber the opposition. But can you say the engi is a worse player? I would even go as far as saying he is the actual real MVP!

Also, tanking damage is a credit? What about ppl playing profession like thief who spend most of the time evading attacks? You can’t quantify that stats.

Then on doing damage: stats heavily favors ppl playing sustain damage rather than burst damage. Burst damage roles will do way less damage than sustain damage roles in a game but that sudden pressure can put opponents off-guard. This again can’t be quantified.

As you said, there are so many different roles in the game. They just contribute in very different way that is not possible to be compared fairly by some quantified stats.

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Posted by: Spartacus.3192

Spartacus.3192

No no and no. Personal statistics is a terrible terrible metric to judge performance, I could argue it is even worse than personal score.

I would be ineterested to hear why not? Of course i agree that personal score is useless but thats very different to personal stats. At least if there was some intelligent way to take into account the different roles people tend to play. DPS, Bruiser, Support, Bunker, etc.

okay, let me give you some scenarios.

An engi contesting an enemy controlled far point, fighting 1v2. Engi’s teammates fighting a 4v3 at mid. So obviously the four teammates will gain way more personal stats compared to the engi, because they are not only in a teamfight(AOE give you more stats) but also outnumber the opposition. But can you say the engi is a worse player? I would even go as far as saying he is the actual real MVP!

Also, tanking damage is a credit? What about ppl playing profession like thief who spend most of the time evading attacks? You can’t quantify that stats.

Then on doing damage: stats heavily favors ppl playing sustain damage rather than burst damage. Burst damage roles will do way less damage than sustain damage roles in a game but that sudden pressure can put opponents off-guard. This again can’t be quantified.

As you said, there are so many different roles in the game. They just contribute in very different way that is not possible to be compared fairly by some quantified stats.

I see…..i guess its a lot more difficult when laid out like that. Thanks

Your typical average gamer -
“Buff my main class, nerf everything else. "

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Posted by: Soothsayer.9206

Soothsayer.9206

I know, it is hard to quantify everything; I wonder if its possible to have an “evasion” stat; they have stats for other types of damage mitigation (condi removal, healing, etc.). I just can’t think of another way, to keep my MMR based on my performance which neither helps or harms others (especially if I have a terrible match – hate contributing to the demise of another). Thx for the posts though! – who knows maybe Anet will come up with something better because of conversations like this one.

Test case: you have that 1 guy on your team who sits around in que, or does the most foolish things like always going far and dying, to make it worse he is talking trash about how you and your team are stinking it up but in the closing moments before the match ends, he manages to score 25-50 pts and in the process trashes your ability to win along with your MMR. Can’t tell you how many times that has happened this season, guys trolling teams, getting them rolled and so forth. Just hope Anet comes up with a way to keep guys from completely tanking my MMR – at least in that scenario I am still fighting it out and my personal stats will bear that out to a lesser degree most likely, but at least that guy’s not tanking me and the rest of our team.

Kyrie eleison…Dies irae, dies illa…Quando judex est venturus

(edited by Soothsayer.9206)

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Posted by: JTGuevara.9018

JTGuevara.9018

Not even Michael Jordan can carry 4 high school kids, but that’s what you have in our “competitive” system! If you put:

Michael Jordan
4 high school kids

vs.

LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant

Michael Jordan and his team WILL lose, NO QUESTION! It amazes me people don’t have common sense. It’s pretty much just game the system, same as last season.

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Posted by: steppres.9046

steppres.9046

Cool, you wrote all that out just to convince yourself of something you know is wrong.

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Posted by: Soothsayer.9206

Soothsayer.9206

Something else that is indicative of, and contributes to the problem rather than propounds a viable solution.

Kyrie eleison…Dies irae, dies illa…Quando judex est venturus

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Posted by: Anhomedog.7968

Anhomedog.7968

No no and no. Personal statistics is a terrible terrible metric to judge performance, I could argue it is even worse than personal score.

I would be ineterested to hear why not? Of course i agree that personal score is useless but thats very different to personal stats. At least if there was some intelligent way to take into account the different roles people tend to play. DPS, Bruiser, Support, Bunker, etc.

It all comes down to certain factors really. I caught myself watching some of Helseth’s videos on a car ride trip back from vacation recently, mostly as I really want to try shatter mesmer despite the fact that its not meta atm. One of the great points that Helseth had said came when he was discussing why he chooses the weapons and amulet that he does (at least at the time of making the video). At the time, he used GS/Sword, Torch, even though clearly the shield is almost better in every situation. He went on to explain other said things in his build that made it what it did.

So where does this all lead me? Well, he made the point that although the shield was better in almost every situation, that’s not what his build was built around, but rather it was built around taking unfair fights and ending them quickly. He also mentioned shortly after that his damage may be lower compared to a condi mesmer, or any other type of mesmer, but thats not what he was built for, he was built for high burst.

So once again, where does this all lead? Helseth had mentioned that his damage might not have gone over 300k in any given game, which is rather low, (I can hit that on my Clerics ele in a game), but he was built for burst, and that is what he thrived at.

So to relate this all back to the post…
I can understand how someone would think basing it off of damage or healing done would be a good idea, but it simply isn’t, mostly by the example that I just gave… Some people are simply not built for high amounts of damage or healing. To further say why this isn’t a good idea is because of say…Thieves! Well, at the moment they thrive on decaping and backcapping points. They may take 1 or 2 fights the entire game, but have they done anything wrong…no! How does one say that the thief didn’t do a good job because he didn’t have the damage that say a Rev had? This also leads me to my next point in that if the game based skill solely off of damage then it would encourage people to chase after one another and mindlessly kill each other, and we all know that this is not the way Conquest is supposed to be played and will only promote bad gameplay.

TL:DR – Basing it off of damage promotes people to play poorly, and doesnt exactly gauge skill because some people aren’t built for damage, healing, etc.

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Posted by: Soothsayer.9206

Soothsayer.9206

Good post, and very true if such a system existed there should be more than just damage considerations; like I said before, you don’t want to punish peoplewho don’t high damage outputs but do have other vital roles, like bunker or healer. Rather, I was putting out an idea that “individualizes” MMR based on in game statistics because in its current state, it is more than plausible to manipulate MMR because so many other things are outside of your control. So by finding a way to make it individually based in solo que, is something that might help MMR to be grounded on skill rather than pips or division. It’s a tall order indeed!

Kyrie eleison…Dies irae, dies illa…Quando judex est venturus