Guild Wars 2

How many threads until your out of turret mesmer tears?

First of all, I’m sorry how difficult it is for you to play.

However, that is not the reason to bring back builds that promote unskilled play. You can’t just demand something to be viable just because it’s difficult for you to play. Clone death was a bad design and I’m glad it’s gone.

If I understand correctly, what you’re describing here are builds / playstyles that rely on hitting a lot of different keys rapidly, which demand a lot of manual dexterity. I can agree that this type of build shouldn’t be the sole goal of “skilled play”, which in my opinion should revolve more around making interesting/difficult decisions quickly. Honestly, the new Chronoshift mechanic for Mesmers seems like this, since players need to decide when it’s valuable to use it / trigger it / destroy it / let it live.

Unfortunately, I think Mesmer will only be second to the Elementalist when it comes to the “too many key presses” problem. The profession is based on having a lot of quick-casting abilities that are used in very narrow windows for timing. As the class gets more complicated, it’s likely to be an inevitable side effect. Still, I hope ArenaNet can design skills and abilities that don’t require rapid fire keyboarding.

As an aside, clone death mesmer had to go. It punished good play by opponents (Destroying summoned resources) and conflicted with the class design, by providing shatter-like effects without actually using a shatter skill & cooldown.

Too many key presses doesn’t mean it’s the hardest thing in the world. You have to look at it in practice and in result.

Take D/D Ele for example, they have 10 million evades via perma-vigor, burning speed, updraft. They are so tanky because they have weakness, earth 2, high protection uptime, and has easy escapes and has access to z-axis teleport.

There is absolutely no trade-off to playing D/D Ele even though they “require” you to press many buttons. And because “they don’t have many trade-offs,” D/D Ele fits in the easy and effective category and is just cancer because it forces the enemy to make harsh choices in rotations.

The root of the problem is “easy and effective.”

Aren’t most of the “esport” players not in their teens? lol

Zefrost.3425:

Aren’t most of the “esport” players not in their teens? lol

tweeensss..

Ithilwen.1529:

He was apparently beaten by a clone death
Mesmer in PvP. That comment has led to a great deal of dislike for the build.

Pretty sure I and most of everyone who encountered PU and Condi Clone Death disliked the build prior to any comment made by a dev .

What you have to understand is that builds and classes with a high skill ceiling must have a larger pay-off than for example builds like Clone Death and MM Necro. If a build that requires little mechanical skill and coordination can compete with one that does indeed require such things then it is unhealthy for the game. Very few people like being aware of the fact that they are pushing themselves to the limit to beat someone who ain’t pushing much more than half a dozen buttons per second and achieves a similar level of efficacy.

A few thoughts:

1. If you’re pressing a half-dozen buttons per second, you’re at 360 APM, which is well above a professional RTS player who is spamming actions that don’t matter. I’m assuming you mean “half a dozen buttons” (the end), but I was just amused by the irony of the wording.

2. If you have a disability in any way, and you find a build that works for you, that’s great . Kudos to you for putting in the effort. However, that doesn’t give the build a pass just because you have a disability. If it’s a build that is legitimately not good for the game because it contradicts a class’s design or is simply far too easy to be extremely effective, it should go.

3. Please don’t use bribery as a mechanism for arguing your point in game balance. Just because you have the financial stability to pour more money into the game doesn’t make you right, nor does it make your ideas good for the overall health and longevity of the game.

4. Skill-based play should not necessarily mean “press more buttons/manage more things”. Aim and timing are two other components that often crop up when discussion something as skill-based. If your opponent has an opportunity to counter-play, but you create a situation where you force them into a bad position and capitalize on it, that’s skilled play. People often associate skill with some lightning-fast reflex or flashy combo, but simple positioning, awareness, and a good sense of timing are huge when it comes to actual skill. You can always take the game to another level and attempt to force an opponent into a bad position by playing them against their ego, taunting them to make them do something stupid, etc. If you’re going to compete in an old-fashioned pistol duel though, you have to submit to the fact that reflexes are going to play a part, and if you don’t have them, you’re most likely going to lose. Here’s a secret though: that’s OK. Dueling doesn’t mean everything. In fact, it often doesn’t mean much at all.

Cogbyrn.7283:

If you’re pressing a half-dozen buttons per second, you’re at 360 APM, which is well above a professional RTS player who is spamming actions that don’t matter. I’m assuming you mean “half a dozen buttons” (the end), but I was just amused by the irony of the wording.

I do a lot more button presses than 6 per sec tbh. I always spam whatever skill I want to use at max speed and a second is pretty long. Add movement keys and right mouse button to rotate camera to that and it’s not exactly amazing.

Aktium.9506:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If you’re pressing a half-dozen buttons per second, you’re at 360 APM, which is well above a professional RTS player who is spamming actions that don’t matter. I’m assuming you mean “half a dozen buttons” (the end), but I was just amused by the irony of the wording.

I do a lot more button presses than 6 per sec tbh. I always spam whatever skill I want to use at max speed and a second is pretty long. Add movement keys and right mouse button to rotate camera to that and it’s not exactly amazing.

I’m sorry, but this is not how you are playing Guild Wars 2. And if it is, then I don’t understand why you’re doing it, because I don’t think it’s helping.

Note that one guy mentions 200 – 300 APM (or 3.5ish to 5 APS) is necessary to win a Korean Starcraft Championship.

Back to the topic: you don’t need to be doing this to be skilled at GW2. I’d argue timing is much, much more important.

I sympathise with the issues you’re raising. However, condi clone death was a bad design, and there are plenty of builds with fewer key presses in this game you can still have fun with.

A few examples: MM necro, any warrior build really, most ranger builds, venom share thief, support mantra mesmer, staff guardian, etc.

GW2 is an action-strategy game. So if you have bad reflexes, because of age or disability, you’re at a disadvantage. My advice would be to focus more on the strategic aspect, which is more important in conquest than mechanical skill.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m sorry, but this is not how you are playing Guild Wars 2. And if it is, then I don’t understand why you’re doing it, because I don’t think it’s helping.

That guy presses a lot more different buttons and with asian precision and stuff. I just tap the same 15~ keys really fast to activate skills quicker even though it’s unnecessary. I’m basically vibrating rather than tapping on my healing skill key when I need to use it.

Aktium.9506:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If you’re pressing a half-dozen buttons per second, you’re at 360 APM, which is well above a professional RTS player who is spamming actions that don’t matter. I’m assuming you mean “half a dozen buttons” (the end), but I was just amused by the irony of the wording.

I do a lot more button presses than 6 per sec tbh. I always spam whatever skill I want to use at max speed and a second is pretty long. Add movement keys and right mouse button to rotate camera to that and it’s not exactly amazing.

Some builds actually require to press 6 keys in a second. It’s actually not that hard to perform (at least on a golem) with a bit of practice. Let’s take a standard sf ele phoenix opening. Basically, you want to execute the whole combo in less than a second. The combo goes:
Pheonix -> Lighting Flash -> Air attunement -> Arcane Wave -> Air 2 -> Air 3 = 6 key presses in under a second, two of them being ground targeted to two different locations.

However, that’s really an extreme example. I played most meta builds in GW2, and that’s the only example I can think of.

edit: I can’t resist the envy of sharing this amazing video demonstrating what I just stated. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4xpjcPSDWQ&spfreload=10

There are many forms of “skill” to possess. Unfortunately, in context to GW2 combat, the term skill mostly refers to the fastest pacing, quickest reaction times, and most button presses. I on the other hand much rather have a combat system and builds that reward a wider range of pacing. That favor more deliberate, patient, and thoughtful play. The dev’s speak of adding more counter play and yet, fights already do not last long enough to have decent counter play. A couple of seconds of back and forth between combatants is not valued counter play. For Hot, it seems to be bringing into the game even more offensive capabilities. So I do not believe Hot will be more “skill” based by my definition at all.

Editing to add that clone death builds should go. Confusion should be a CC and not cause damage. Retal should be outright removed from the game. Basically anything that rewards inaction should be removed.

DeWolfe.2174:

There are many forms of “skill” to possess. Unfortunately, in context to GW2 combat, the term skill mostly refers to the fastest pacing, quickest reaction times, and most button presses. I on the other hand much rather have a combat system and builds that reward a wider range of pacing. That favor more deliberate, patient, and thoughtful play. The dev’s speak of adding more counter play and yet, fights already do not last long enough to have decent counter play. A couple of seconds of back and forth between combatants is not valued counter play. For Hot, it seems to be bringing into the game even more offensive capabilities. So I do not believe Hot will be more “skill” based by my definition at all.

Editing to add that clone death builds should go. Confusion should be a CC and not cause damage. Retal should be outright removed from the game. Basically anything that rewards inaction should be removed.

+1 yes.

also sigils

Sorel.4870:

Aktium.9506:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If you’re pressing a half-dozen buttons per second, you’re at 360 APM, which is well above a professional RTS player who is spamming actions that don’t matter. I’m assuming you mean “half a dozen buttons” (the end), but I was just amused by the irony of the wording.

I do a lot more button presses than 6 per sec tbh. I always spam whatever skill I want to use at max speed and a second is pretty long. Add movement keys and right mouse button to rotate camera to that and it’s not exactly amazing.

Some builds actually require to press 6 keys in a second. It’s actually not that hard to perform (at least on a golem) with a bit of practice. Let’s take a standard sf ele phoenix opening. Basically, you want to execute the whole combo in less than a second. The combo goes:
Pheonix -> Lighting Flash -> Air attunement -> Arcane Wave -> Air 2 -> Air 3 = 6 key presses in under a second, two of them being ground targeted to two different locations.

However, that’s really an extreme example. I played most meta builds in GW2, and that’s the only example I can think of.

edit: I can’t resist the envy of sharing this amazing video demonstrating what I just stated. Enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4xpjcPSDWQ&spfreload=10

Pressing 6 keys in under a second is different than averaging 6 keypresses per second. When the player isn’t using that burst in his video, he’s probably averaging a couple keypresses per second. Also, pressing different keys is the best way to achieve artificially increased APM.

But I think you’re right, that’s one of the few builds I have ever heard about that would require a higher number of presses in a shorter amount of time. Keypresses in this game shouldn’t even be a metric that is considered with respect to skill, in my opinion, and here’s why:

For a person who spams a skill, remove all the keypresses from the equation that did not contribute towards that skill’s activation. How many keys are you pressing per second now? Are you performing any worse by pressing the button once at the right time vs. slamming it several times for it to activate once? Objectively, you aren’t. You’re doing the exact same thing as you were.

Being able to train yourself to press 6+ buttons in a second can be useful in certain situations, but it certainly isn’t mandatory, nor an indication of skill.

EDIT – And I agree that Clone Death, based on a quick search, was a very toxic build to have in the game. I know it can feel good to find a build that works for you, but if that build punishes a player for attempting to kill clones to hinder the Mesmer, while punishing the player for not killing clones by taking condition damage from them, then the opponent has absolutely no counter-play. This is actually my problem with Confusion as a condition, which was more prominent in its display in WvW (I know this is an sPvP forum, but bear with me). When the condition would last 10+ seconds and stack up to 8 times, there was often nothing you could do after you clear it once or twice. Not attacking means you’re burning down with conditions. Attacking means you’re dying. It felt really, really dumb trying to do anything against.

In sPvP, PU didn’t seem nearly as difficult to deal with for several reasons (food/perplexity runes, namely), but the idea of punishing all of someone’s options is just awful design, imo.

Sorry for your problems, but this is not how it works in real life.

Your argument could be compared to a poor person coming and saying that he or she also deserves a business class seat because otherwise it is unfair. This is basically what you’re advocating – maintaining unfair system/build to make up for some deficiencies you or someone else may have. While it is important to not forget about people like you, it is largely more important to create a balanced and skillful game that caters to the ‘healthy’ majority. I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, merciless or indifferent, but that’s just the reality both in and outside of the game.

I’m sure there will be builds or roles that will be more fitted to your capabilities.
Leaving builds with very high payoff-to-difficulty ratio is not the way to go, because they destroy the community and are abused, paradoxically mostly by people that don’t have any health problems.

Good luck, man.

itll probably be a lot easier to press different buttons if youre not pressing hte same one 500 times lmao. bad habit and really bad if you play thief since weapon skills will q. Just stop doing it and youll probably be a decent player. even if your left hand can use JUST AWD youll be as good as most players.

Booms.3952:

itll probably be a lot easier to press different buttons if youre not pressing hte same one 500 times lmao. bad habit and really bad if you play thief since weapon skills will q.

Nonsense, mashing auto attack ten times per sec while random dodging non-stop is the best way to play any class.

As to condi -clone death counterplay: Clones do negligible damage. The counterplay is simply to focus the real Mesmer instead of mindlessly spamming AOE. The build trades on the lack of skill in other classes. Wars and Guards tend to be especially easy targets. The build attracts hate because it REQUIRES skilled play to beat.

Am I asking for special privileges? No, I’m pointing out that not everyone plays best in the rapid key press / complicated combo regime. I hope ANET will bear that in mind.

Bribery? No simple reality. “The customer is always right.” anonymous and “Give them what they want.” PT Barnum.

With respect to retaliation: I play an altruistic heal/retaliation Guardian.. two of them in fact and they work well, thank you very much. Please don’t chop that apart too, ANET.

Yes, I also play a venom share thief. She does quite well in a dungeon environment, teaching noobs the ropes, thank you very much. I can confidently post “all welcome” on lfg knowing I can add immob and dps to the party. I’m among the few that regularly takes non 80 only parties. Though I suspect ANET will destroy that too.

Ithilwen.1529:

The counterplay is simply to focus the real Mesmer instead of mindlessly spamming AOE.

I want you to list all the single target only damage skills in the game, no projectiles that can accidentally hit clones when you’re aiming for the real mesmer either. Go on.

Well, I’d say that’s part of the problem with the game in general. That aside, the reality is that most of the players spam aoe.

Ranger, War, Thief , ele ( non DD ),engi and Mesmer all have focused single target attacks that can melt a Mesmer fairly quickly. Rapid fire, bow and rifle skills, pistol skills, thief dagger skills, staff skills, engi rifle pistol and shield, multiple mesmer modes.

So, your argument doesn’t really fly.

Ithilwen.1529:

Well, I’d say that’s part of the problem with the game in general. That aside, the reality is that most of the players spam aoe.

Ranger, War, Thief , ele ( non DD ),engi and Mesmer all have focused single target attacks that can melt a Mesmer fairly quickly. Rapid fire, bow and rifle skills, pistol skills, thief dagger skills, staff skills, engi rifle pistol and shield, multiple mesmer modes.

So, your argument doesn’t really fly.

All those things you mentioned will hit clones by accident and blow them up more often than not. Your argument is the one that doesn’t fly.

Ithilwen.1529:

As to condi -clone death counterplay: Clones do negligible damage. The counterplay is simply to focus the real Mesmer instead of mindlessly spamming AOE. The build trades on the lack of skill in other classes. Wars and Guards tend to be especially easy targets. The build attracts hate because it REQUIRES skilled play to beat.

Am I asking for special privileges? No, I’m pointing out that not everyone plays best in the rapid key press / complicated combo regime. I hope ANET will bear that in mind.

Bribery? No simple reality. “The customer is always right.” anonymous and “Give them what they want.” PT Barnum.

With respect to retaliation: I play an altruistic heal/retaliation Guardian.. two of them in fact and they work well, thank you very much. Please don’t chop that apart too, ANET.

Yes, I also play a venom share thief. She does quite well in a dungeon environment, teaching noobs the ropes, thank you very much. I can confidently post “all welcome” on lfg knowing I can add immob and dps to the party. I’m among the few that regularly takes non 80 only parties. Though I suspect ANET will destroy that too.

If the customer is always right, and two customers say two opposing things, what do you do then? I personally believe a product has to be true to itself and follow its vision, while being receptive to honest feedback. Too many people hold too many different opinions of varying levels of experience for the customer to always be right.

Plus, I’ve worked in food service and am currently a consultant. Sometimes the customer is simply an idiot. I’m not saying you are, but I am very much opposed to the idea of customers always being right.

Also, if you are using the fact that you have money as a point in your argument, it’s bribery. “Do what I think is right because money” only detracts from your position, in my opinion. It says that the argument itself can’t stand on its own feet from a game mechanics perspective, so you have to dip outside the game to try to cater to their business sense.

And yes, you are asking for special privileges. You are asking for ANet to make sure there are builds in the game that are easy to play and still very effective, because you feel you have a disadvantage physically against other players. Technically you aren’t saying to give your specific account extra power or anything, but you are asking ANet to keep something in the game that helps give you a leg up, because you feel like you need the lift.

Regardless of all of this, as people have mentioned, there are ways to play to your strengths that don’t necessarily get you into reflex-matches against other players. Sometimes someone might catch you in a 1on1, like a Thief, and put you at a disadvantage. That’s OK. Maybe another time you draw a player into a disadvantageous position and kill them, or you lure someone into a bad position for a CC combo that lets you neutralize a point. There’s more to this game than reflex-dodging, though if you CAN reflex-dodge really well, it helps in a tight spot.

Plus, you found a build that fit you once already. You can do it again. All it takes is a love of your class and a love of the game.

Ithilwen.1529:

ANET has made it clear that it intends to reconfigure the combat system to promote “skill based” play. Which is to say, play which is highly interactive with one’s target.

I think that this push is misguided and here’s why;

Using myself as an example. I’m a loyal player in my 3rd year in modern Tyria. The Gem Store has gotten more of my money than I’m willing to admit. Recently I’ve begun to focus on PvP.

I’m well north of 40 and have a partially disabled left hand. I bought a Razer Naga to help offset this but it’s taking a lot of training. My reaction speed is slower than many players’. To offset this; I am running cable internet and a gaming comp. Still, it’s very difficult for me to find and press the right button fast enough to make an interrupt for example.

Until recently I played a Condi Clone death Mesmer ( not PU .) Now, an ANET dev has called this particular build “unhealthy.” He was apparently beaten by a clone death
Mesmer in PvP. That comment has led to a great deal of dislike for the build.

ANET, I’m playing with some disadvantages. So, I used my head and made a build that was well suited to me. That is not a lack of skill. It is playing to a different style that suits me.

While I appreciate that many “competitive” players are teenage males with the concomitant hand to eye coordination and reflexes. Some of us are not.

Making classes more difficult to play serves no purpose other than to stroke the egos of a small percentage of players.

Another point to consider. I’m in the demographic that likely tends to be the most loyal and have the most money to spend on a game. When the “competitive” players get bored, they move on.

In summary, making the game harder to play for it’s own sake is senseless and may well drive away some of your desirable demographic.

Make hard to play classes if you will, but leave options for the people who don’t believe that playing an ultra complicated class shows our superiority.

I have some fingers left in a desert in the middle east from back in the 90s. I simply custom ordered a controller designed just for me. There are several companies that make items for players such as us.

I prefer to spend a couple of bucks to have something that works well for me to play all professions in all game modes. Rather then complaining that they do not cater to me as a minority and degrade everyone else’s experience.

Then realistically you need to accept that power ranger should be eliminated from the game. It has the same basic objections. There really isn’t a counterplay for a one-shot kill from behind at 1200 range. Nor for a fire and forget guided missle.

I will reiterate that my argument is not primarily for condi-clone death Mesmer. I’ve started training in a Phantasm build anticipating the change.

My argument is that ANET is over emphasizing “skill” in the form of rapid button stomping and complex combos.

No, I’m not asking for special privileges so much as I’m asking not to be put out of the game.

@dancingmonkey Yes I was also in the middle east in the 90’s and yes, my disability stems partially from that. I didn’t realize custom controllers were available.. where?

Ithilwen.1529:

Then realistically you need to accept that power ranger should be eliminated from the game. It has the same basic objections. There really isn’t a counterplay for a one-shot kill from behind at 1200 range. Nor for a fire and forget guided missle.

There’s a Look Behind button you know. If a Ranger manages to sneak up on you from behind and fire off a Rapid Fire without you noticing in time to dodge then you sorta deserve to get hit. I do think the range on Longbow is far too long though. In my opinion longbow projectiles, all projectiles for that matter, should magically go poof immediately after reaching the stated range. The 2k~ range on traited LB has always been kittening dumb. Damage is fine though, it’s not that high to begin with.

I am sorry to hear the difficulty for you to play.
There WILL definitely be easier to play builds even after HoT comes out. It is just that it will probably not be mesmer.

Aktium.9506:

Ithilwen.1529:

Then realistically you need to accept that power ranger should be eliminated from the game. It has the same basic objections. There really isn’t a counterplay for a one-shot kill from behind at 1200 range. Nor for a fire and forget guided missle.

There’s a Look Behind button you know. If a Ranger manages to sneak up on you from behind and fire off a Rapid Fire without you noticing in time to dodge then you sorta deserve to get hit. I do think the range on Longbow is far too long though. In my opinion longbow projectiles, all projectiles for that matter, should magically go poof immediately after reaching the stated range. The 2k~ range on traited LB has always been kittening dumb. Damage is fine though, it’s not that high to begin with.

TBH, the OP plays memser, looking behind doesn’t help since the damaging attack to mesmer from ranger is usually the autoattack rather than the infamous 2 skill. The autoattack can hit mesmer for 2k damage if it is a critical hit.

The only way to counter play is to LOS. If it is an open field, you are basically just doomed.

Exciton.8942:

TBH, the OP plays memser, looking behind doesn’t help since the damaging attack to mesmer from ranger is usually the autoattack rather than the infamous 2 skill. The autoattack can hit mesmer for 2k damage if it is a critical hit.

The only way to counter play is to LOS. If it is an open field, you are basically just doomed.

He said one-shot kill though so I assume he means Rapid Fire. Which technically still won’t one-shot anyone. Highest Rapid Fire I’ve ever seen in sPvP was 13k. There also ain’t a lot of open fields with nowhere to LoS in sPvP either.

To OP: try playing power necro. Pretty easy to play and not a lot of buttons to push but can really be a difference maker once you get good with it. I have also heard that it’s going to get better with updates.

DrTrey.9386:

To OP: try playing power necro. Pretty easy to play and not a lot of buttons to push but can really be a difference maker once you get good with it. I have also heard that it’s going to get better with updates.

This is actually a pretty good idea, but it’s probably going to feel slow and vulnerable at first. You get past that, and you don’t often have to push buttons very quickly, especially since everything takes so long to cast anyway.

I’m not sure if you’re into the whole Necro thing, but if so, I’d be happy to give you an intro. Power Necro was and is my jam, and I was actually happy to see it hit the Necro forums and make a splash back when Leeto (I’m forgetting his name, but I think that’s it?) posted his build for sPvP and showed a bunch of videos.

What would you define as skillful playstyle?

More buttons/actions per minute is equal skill? Most people on the forums complain about eles and engis the classes that press more buttons than any other.

Zerker/squish is skillfull? People say sword+dg zerker thief was cheese and easy mode…

This is an mmorpg. Most skills are go straith to the target, you don’t have to aim shots. The ones that don’t go to the target are either cleave or aoe, on a conquest gamemode with such small nodes they are also not hard to aim. If you want a skill based game go play CS:GO, other fps or sport games. There everyone has the same class and it is 100% based on your aiming skill. If the players are not using the same 100% exactly character as the enemy one can always blame the game balance. Because mmo class balance is subjective. What may seem fair for you might look op for others.

Ithilwen.1529:

ANET has made it clear that it intends to reconfigure the combat system to promote “skill based” play. Which is to say, play which is highly interactive with one’s target.

I think that this push is misguided and here’s why;

Using myself as an example. I’m a loyal player in my 3rd year in modern Tyria. The Gem Store has gotten more of my money than I’m willing to admit. Recently I’ve begun to focus on PvP.

I’m well north of 40 and have a partially disabled left hand. I bought a Razer Naga to help offset this but it’s taking a lot of training. My reaction speed is slower than many players’. To offset this; I am running cable internet and a gaming comp. Still, it’s very difficult for me to find and press the right button fast enough to make an interrupt for example.

Until recently I played a Condi Clone death Mesmer ( not PU .) Now, an ANET dev has called this particular build “unhealthy.” He was apparently beaten by a clone death
Mesmer in PvP. That comment has led to a great deal of dislike for the build.

ANET, I’m playing with some disadvantages. So, I used my head and made a build that was well suited to me. That is not a lack of skill. It is playing to a different style that suits me.

While I appreciate that many “competitive” players are teenage males with the concomitant hand to eye coordination and reflexes. Some of us are not.

Making classes more difficult to play serves no purpose other than to stroke the egos of a small percentage of players.

Another point to consider. I’m in the demographic that likely tends to be the most loyal and have the most money to spend on a game. When the “competitive” players get bored, they move on.

In summary, making the game harder to play for it’s own sake is senseless and may well drive away some of your desirable demographic.

Make hard to play classes if you will, but leave options for the people who don’t believe that playing an ultra complicated class shows our superiority.

“Leave MY build in because I’m entitled by money”
No, there will be more build diversity when these changes come in, and I’m sure there will be another braindead trait set to use, we don’t even know what we can put together yet in full so please stop crying, I’m tired of seeing these threads from you.

OK Dears, here’s one of the best of the “skilled gameplay” players. ADVOCATING CLONE DEATH in one of those “skilled” builds. This is a current post in the Mesmer forum.. not sure how to make the snip work:

“Make sure you’re running with Debilitating dissipation in Chaos, AoE weakness is nothing to overlook. Bountiful Interruption is obvious. "

The level of hypocrisy really kittenes me off. Is Chaos Archangel a bad player? a whiner? a bad person? Is the “skilled” interrupt build “cancer?”

I don’t think most of the posters here really know what they are speaking of. Please play Mesmer and learn it before you post here claiming I’m bad. I’m sorry, y’all are just dead wrong.

I play mesmer, even condi clone death, as soon as I went up a bracket it didn’t work and I was beaten down. It happens, you rework and move on.
It does not make it good. It’s probs the worst build for conquest when you’re up against semi organised teams. Even full pugs will almost always know how to handle condiclone mesmers.

DeWolfe.2174:

snip

Editing to add that clone death builds should go. Confusion should be a CC and not cause damage. Retal should be outright removed from the game. Basically anything that rewards inaction should be removed.

Retal primarily imo, confusion I’m not so against as it can be cleansed or mitigated by using channeled abilities, and with cleanses being far more common than boon strip it’s not so big of a deal to me.

To the OP:
I understand that you may have developed your build yourself and didn’t just copy it when it started becoming popular.

The problem with clone death is that if your target simply walks away, you can’t do anything about it. Heck, they can stand still most the time, and should they not attack at all, but only use and occasional block/cleanse/heal, you won’t kill them.

Two enemies sitting on a contested point, one doing everything it can to kill, the other just doing nothing waiting for a teammate to come and kill the mesmer from range.

It’s unhealthy because the counterplay is “Sit there, cleanse, and heal”

I use a Naga as well because it allows me to use one hand just for movement, which as I understand from your post might still be difficult for you with a bum left hand. There are other classes that require even less movement than a cd mesmer (shortbow spirit ranger for example) that can still be effective and not be as “unhealthy” to the broader game (I’ll leave the argument about whether or not AI and passive procs are healthy to others).

I’m sorry they are getting rid of your preferred build, but yours is not the only one.

Have you ever heard of Aeiron or Pentakill (not gw2 but still playing competative pvp games)? I’d have a look at their youtube channels…

I’ve made my point, and so.. to bed!

Until the next post about the same thing!

Ithilwen.1529:

OK Dears, here’s one of the best of the “skilled gameplay” players. ADVOCATING CLONE DEATH in one of those “skilled” builds. This is a current post in the Mesmer forum.. not sure how to make the snip work:

“Make sure you’re running with Debilitating dissipation in Chaos, AoE weakness is nothing to overlook. Bountiful Interruption is obvious. "

The level of hypocrisy really kittenes me off. Is Chaos Archangel a bad player? a whiner? a bad person? Is the “skilled” interrupt build “cancer?”

I don’t think most of the posters here really know what they are speaking of. Please play Mesmer and learn it before you post here claiming I’m bad. I’m sorry, y’all are just dead wrong.

He advocates those traits in the context of a lockdown build. Not the actual clone death build.

These two builds here and here don’t exactly play the same way.

Ithilwen.1529:

OK Dears, here’s one of the best of the “skilled gameplay” players. ADVOCATING CLONE DEATH in one of those “skilled” builds. This is a current post in the Mesmer forum.. not sure how to make the snip work:

“Make sure you’re running with Debilitating dissipation in Chaos, AoE weakness is nothing to overlook. Bountiful Interruption is obvious. "

The level of hypocrisy really kittenes me off. Is Chaos Archangel a bad player? a whiner? a bad person? Is the “skilled” interrupt build “cancer?”

I don’t think most of the posters here really know what they are speaking of. Please play Mesmer and learn it before you post here claiming I’m bad. I’m sorry, y’all are just dead wrong.

Just so that we’re all exquisitely clear, the post that Ithilwen is referring to can be found here . Context is kind of important, everyone.

Also, way to project your argument onto another player?