Guild Wars 2

Evan Lesh.3295:

However, all melee attacks hit outside the visible animation for all races.

I haven’t tested the difference in melee, but here’s a very relevant section of a thread that someone linked previously (with emphasis added):

Liberis.9573:

For reference, my female Norn is about 1/4th of the max Norn size, and my Asura is as small as they get.

First, Churning Earth.
Both the animation and the aoe range circle match, and the skill does damage inside this exact area. http://i.imgur.com/SdkBjpb.png ¹ and http://i.imgur.com/PnMgdzx.png ²

Next, Drake’s Breath.
On the Norn, the animation matches up almost perfectly with the range the skill does damage at. Max Damage range: http://i.imgur.com/80FvzGv.png ³ and just ouside of range: http://i.imgur.com/efE6QMr.png ⁴

Also, yay, pretty ele animations.

Anyway, now see what happens when you compare the animation to the real range the skill has on the tiny asura:

The exact spot the Norn was standing on. http://i.imgur.com/g2VLNzf.png ⁵
The animation doesn’t even reach half the range the skill really has. Your opponents can clearly stand outside of your burning fire yet still take damage from invisible things. This shouldn’t happen in a game that is based around reading the enemy through his animations to counter them.

I also tested Lightning Whip, Ring of Earth and Frozen Burst. They behave the same as Drake’s Breath, the animation not even reaching half the range the skill really has. http://i.imgur.com/jAAq95j.png ⁶
http://i.imgur.com/EGWkQ4H.png ⁷
http://i.imgur.com/CVBBFll.png ⁸

From some further tests on the elementalists it seems skills that are either projectiles (like Dagger Fire Auto attack) or have AOE indicator circles like Ring of Fire are the same size no matter your character size. But I suspect all Skills that aren’t single target and don’t fall into the 2 mentioned categories are effected by this animation issue (like Warrior Hammer swings and cleaves like that).
Which is huge.

“Which is huge,” indeed.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Increasing streak effects contradicts a previously made statement about reducing particle in WvW and Pvp to clear up screen pollution. If I understand the built focus, it was to be a highly animated game. The effects are not important, being able to recognize which attack is which should be, and understandably so, be the main concern.

Well the main problem with “screen pollution” isn’t so much the size of the particle effects, but their density, opacity (they obscure character models), and bloom and glowy effects (hey I’m not a graphics engineer! :p ). Big explosions occlude everything around them because they’re just too bright and beautiful. What you want is less three-dimensional effects that mostly occur along the surface of the ground rather than having big blooming 3D effects. You want them to come up to the knee of in-game characters, not be big enough that some Asuras can hide inside them! You also want them to be sparser, more transparent, and less bright. The last three probably don’t even require a redesign of the effects: they’re sliders an artist can adjust in their graphics software! You can make particle effects bigger (or, in the case of Asuras, THE RIGHT SIZE) without making them give people epileptic seizures.

I can respect the asura were built with a design concept in mind. The swagger, topsy turvy effect to them is implemented well, but this only adds to the confusion of what they are doing. When this is paired that they also have unique animations quite different from the other cultures (See guardian staff channels. Human male crouches and pulses, female human levitates and pulses etc) Asura climb and swirl. It is this swirling that they also use on things like guardian hammer skills, evading and simply coming to a stop after running. The cue’s that start/finish a lot of their animations are the same.

Agreed, but that’s not necessarily a problem: casting animations doesn’t need to mean a character waving their arms around. You can have different decals and particle effects appearing around them or above their heads, and they normally do a MUCH better job of telegraphing a skill activation. Examples include the pulses around a Guardian when they use Empower, the Signet of Spite decal appearing over a necro’s head when they use the signet’s active, the little reaper thing showing up over a necro’s head when they use their downed #2 skill (or their DS3 skill, although ironically it’s an instant cast skill so having an easy to see animation doesn’t make it easier to dodge…).

These are things which the artists who worked on GW1 had MASTERED, and I have no idea why they didn’t carry that design style over. GW1 had casting bars, but honestly, you didn’t need them. The casting animations were so distinct, and so easy to see floating over the caster’s (or, in some cases, the target’s) heads, or swirling around their feet, that after a few weeks of pvping you would learn 90% of the most commonly used skills by heart without making an effort. Just watch this and I guarantee you will be able to recognise the animation for Protective Spirit within 60 seconds effortlessly.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I consider this a different problem than the readability of Asura animations. Yes, they could be fixed in the same way with many of the solutions the players have suggested. However, all melee attacks hit outside the visible animation for all races. That specific problem is not easy to solve because it is a product of us trying to create fluid combat.

Asura animations specifically, above any other problems with melee create new problems. If 4/5 races have animations that are “good-enough”, and 1/5 does not, then it isn’t something inherit to the entire design of the game, it is obvious that one specific thing is causing issues.

I can understand if melee simply looks a bit different than it acts. But when I’m in PvP and a large burst of fire is coming at me, yet noticeably stopping a distance from my model and not touching my character at all (or even very close), I should expect to not be affected by it. However this is not the case. Lets be honest here, this wouldn’t fly in PvE if a boss’s red circle was actually half of the size it needed to be, so even if you were a full body width outside of it you would die anyway, so why is this allowed in PvP?

Evan Lesh.3295:

I understand the scale issues; just making sure there weren’t some misconceptions flying around. Most melee attacks have pretty large hit areas to make the game feel better with latency. I believe they’re bigger than the animations show for every race/scale. Especially to the sides.

I can’t think of a way to fix this off the top of my head without plastering ground decals all over the place or somehow making streak effects better show the attack arc. Any other ideas?

I have one that I think can work to solve this problem and fix a pet peeve of mine at once.

As far as I know, there is no way to know the distance in units you are from a player/NPC/target-able thing other than looking for the exact moment a skill goes in and out of range. If there was an option that would give us a real-time indicator for the exact distance we are from an opponent, I think it would go a long way in helping to gauge where the “safe” distance is, regardless of the target’s race or size.

Now it’s not perfect, since it would probably require you to target whoever you are concerned about (if for no other reason than to keep from overloading the player with data), and some knowledge of that profession’s skills and skill ranges would be a must to prove useful, but I think it would be a good step in the right direction that wouldn’t require adding new effects or force some sort of character scaling/homogenization on everyone for PvP.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I consider this a different problem than the readability of Asura animations. Yes, they could be fixed in the same way with many of the solutions the players have suggested. However, all melee attacks hit outside the visible animation for all races. That specific problem is not easy to solve because it is a product of us trying to create fluid combat.

A. Do you not agree that the degree of the problem much smaller for the melee animations of other races than it is for those of Asuras?
B. Do you believe that the design decisions that led to this problem fulfil the objective of creating fluid combat?

Normalize player model sizes in SPvP. Make Norns/Charr a bit smaller, Asuras a lot bigger, etc.

By far the simplest solution.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I consider this a different problem than the readability of Asura animations. Yes, they could be fixed in the same way with many of the solutions the players have suggested. However, all melee attacks hit outside the visible animation for all races. That specific problem is not easy to solve because it is a product of us trying to create fluid combat.

Is it really that hard to make it so that skill animations (eg dragon’s breath) are the same size across all 5 races?

And again – make an option “View all enemies as humans” thats it, who wants to play as a rat can still do that, but without any advantage I would bet on a decrease of asura population…

Evan Lesh.3295:

However, all melee attacks hit outside the visible animation for all races.

As others have said: the difference between asuran hitting outside the visible animation, and any other race, is huge. It’s much harder to calculate (or guess at) a safe range to be at when your foe is doing damage almost the entire animation’s distance away from the end of said animation.

This is a huge problem and the best way to solve it would be to make an option to view all enemies as humans. As proposed already! That way one can look how they want and be whatever race they want AND still be able to see animations from enemies.

djooceboxblast.9876:

make an option to view all enemies as humans.

LOOOL

You have no clue.

If they update that feature, they have to give us a free racial change because i hate my asura avatar i want a real human one.

so what you are saying is:

“LOOOL

i only made an asura character to have an unfair advantage in pvp even though i hate asuras,

if they take that advantage away from me i demand a free race change so i can at least look pretty"

do i read it right?

You have no clue …
You miss my point.

What’s the point to have made an asura then if everyone would see me as human?

I should have make a real cute human for the begining if i had known. Asura are ugly.

Now, you hear me?

Evan Lesh.3295:

I can’t think of a way to fix this off the top of my head without plastering ground decals all over the place or somehow making streak effects better show the attack arc. Any other ideas?

Attach a “mist projection” to each character. It’d be a copy of their model, scaled to a standard size, with a monochrome transparency effect (like an Ascalonian ghost) overlaid with their normal model.

The effect would be similar to this pic. (I apologize for posting Naruto.)

you made a character you consider “ugly” and that you “hate”.

yes i think i hear you, you didn’t like asuras but made one anyway because they give a slight but unfair advantage in pvp. can’t blame you, but i wouldn’t go about saying they should compensate players for leveling the field.

…or you had another reason for making a character you dislike that i’m totally missing here but that is somehow related to how other characters perceive you (so not, for example “because i wanted to play asura personal story”). this should only apply to spvp (and maybe wvw?) anyway.

Nina.4317:

You have no clue …
You miss my point.

What’s the point to have made an asura then if everyone would see me as human?

I should have make a real cute human for the begining if i had known. Asura are ugly.

Now, you hear me?

Well, in PvP chances are you can reroll to human, fix your build, and just start playing – surely you have enough Tomes and Scrolls to unlock everything for a new character?

It still sounds like you rolled asura just for the size advantage, in which case you’re exploiting broken game mechanics and so aren’t owed anything should ANet ever fix it.

i really do like the idea of showing everyone as human
should be relatively easy (easier than scaling all races to the same size since then you would need three races to change and then people would argue that the bulky charrs dont fit ins their hitboxes…

another solution that came to my mind would be scale the weapons to the size where they actually hit the enemies…
asura with a reallllly big greatsword when he just uses sword autoattack ^^
just kidding that wouldnt work

showing all as human would be the best option

i do have 7asurans (the ranger is still missing..xD)
but ironically im doing pvp with other races guard in particular all other races^^

i dont think it is an unfair advantage
u know its that class so you know how far it will reach anyway
(firebreath is something different that DOES surprise me quite often..)
but mellee attacks.. cmon..

so it gives some sort of advantage
but only a reaaally slight one

experience will still beat a bit less experienced asuran players
and if both are equally experienced some lucky sigill procs or krits or some random things
will most likely impact the fight more than the character size

id still +1 for a option to show all as humam just so the flamewar stops
(i wont use it anyway)
but the implementation of such a thing wont hurt anyone really…
whilst it should be quite easy to add into the game

While everyone’s hopping on the asuran bandwagon, I’m going Charr. Nothing like a massive beast in your face.
Out with the rats, in with the cats.
#esports2015

The most important thing when we duel is to know their weapon type. unfortunately it is not easy to recognize asuran’s weapon type cuz they are small and their weapon also look small. just make only their weapon size bigger or show what weapon they are equipping on character info window.(when we clicked them)

Evan Lesh.3295:

I consider this a different problem than the readability of Asura animations.

I agree it is a different problem, and a much less important problem since it applies to every race. However, is something being fixed to work on the problem of the “readability of Asura animations?” This is a much larger problem that puts 1 race at a distinct advantage over other races.

Why aren’t racial abilities in PvP? For balance I assume. Asura’s tiny size is way more game breaking than any kittenty racial elite could be. Please make them large in PvP OR make their casting animations more flamboyant/obvious

Lukin.4061:

And again – make an option “View all enemies as humans” thats it, who wants to play as a rat can still do that, but without any advantage I would bet on a decrease of asura population…

This would be by far the easiest thing to implement. Probably a lot easier than scaling people up or down.

I don’t think it’s an ideal solution, as the game loses a lot of its personality, flair, and customisability. But there are many well-established precedents in competitive gaming (“Force Models” to Sarge option in Q3A and QL for instance).

If you’re gonna do that, may I suggest you take it one step further? Not only force race to human, but also force a specific armour skin for each class, to make them easy to distinguish at a glance without having to look at the target display. For instance you could force all necros to dry bones, all mesmers to heritage, and all elementalists to exalted armour, and hey presto, instantly recognisable!

I know some people would hate this (I myself think it’s not ideal), but if you make it an option you enable in settings, and it only affects what YOU see on YOUR screen, the people who don’t like it are not affected in any way.

manveruppd.7601:

I know some people would hate this (I myself think it’s not ideal), but if you make it an option you enable in settings, and it only affects what YOU see on YOUR screen, the people who don’t like it are not affected in any way.

As I said earlier in the thread: I love having my asura characters, I enjoy playing as them… but if getting to see what my foes are doing means letting people ignore my carefully chosen armour/weapon/dye set and instead view me as a standardised human, so be it.

A fairer playing field means a lot more to PvP than some customisable skins.

If you still want to keep customisation in PvP, and keep it visible to everyone: allow it for humans.
Don’t reskin any human characters, unless for some reason a weapon or armour skin is introduced that ends up breaking the game (unlikely, but possible).
Soon enough…
- anyone that cares about their appearance to others will roll humans
- anyone who just wants to look pretty to themselves will stay as they are
- anyone who continues to roll asura for their readability/targeting/animation advantages will lose their edge in competitive play.