Guild Wars 2

Let’s start with the basics. The changes to the 50/50 win loss ratio. If one can lose pips and tiers in ruby, how does one ever progress up to diamond or above? B/c you literally lose 50% of the matches anyways. I haven’t done the math but even a 60/40 ratio would take a very long time to grind up.

Now before people troll and say get good, I’m just talking about the math here. Even if one was legendary previous seasons they are still only 1/5 of their team, thus even playing perfectly they can still at most affect 20% of the game. And playing people of = skill or around it kind of means even if you are good the enemy should also be just as good. Or even if your allies are normally decent they could be having a bad game. Point is statically it seems most will be stagnant with no hope of moving on no matter what their skill level is.

The only real solution i see is try your best to win 50% of the time and then pray like crazy for a win streak here and there for the bonus points. That or get lucky and find a decept pvp guild, but after looking for 3 seasons I haven’t even seen one advertise yet in map chat so a lot more rare than you would think.

odstninja.1468:

Let’s start with the basics. The changes to the 50/50 win loss ratio. If one can lose pips and tiers in ruby, how does one ever progress up to diamond or above? B/c you literally lose 50% of the matches anyways. I haven’t done the math but even a 60/40 ratio would take a very long time to grind up.

Now before people troll and say get good, I’m just talking about the math here. Even if one was legendary previous seasons they are still only 1/5 of their team, thus even playing perfectly they can still at most affect 20% of the game. And playing people of = skill or around it kind of means even if you are good the enemy should also be just as good. Or even if your allies are normally decent they could be having a bad game. Point is statically it seems most will be stagnant with no hope of moving on no matter what their skill level is.

The only real solution i see is try your best to win 50% of the time and then pray like crazy for a win streak here and there for the bonus points. That or get lucky and find a decept pvp guild, but after looking for 3 seasons I haven’t even seen one advertise yet in map chat so a lot more rare than you would think.

i guess i should not be surprised Anet cares more about pro league then it does addressing what has been going on with ranked

I am in diamond and play relatively casual due to work and all. It is possible just takes a lot of games OR/and high MMR. The higher MMR you have the less games you need to get to legend. Oh and btw there are quite few people in legend already.

Thing is, with time the better players will move up the divisions, lower divisions (sapphire/ruby) will be filled with ex-ambers so you can farm your way to diamond eventually even if you are not really good.

Cynz.9437:

I am in diamond and play relatively casual due to work and all. It is possible just takes a lot of games OR/and high MMR. The higher MMR you have the less games you need to get to legend. Oh and btw there are quite few people in legend already.

Thing is, with time the better players will move up the divisions, lower divisions (sapphire/ruby) will be filled with ex-ambers so you can farm your way to diamond eventually even if you are not really good.

If the matches are basically predetermined who wins 50% of the time how will you climb up later? Even if a lot of lower tier people grind up and get stuck at ruby, at the end of the day you’re still going to get a lot of those players on your team.

and again you’re 1/5 of a team, so at best you can effect 20% of what happens. That or maybe pick a super strong carry profession and hope your noobs are > than their noobs?

Is there a way to find/determine our your MMR? I apparently have a really good one because I haven’t (yet) had the 50/50 problem and kinda breezed through last season.

I think the problem last season is it was too top-heavy at the expense of frustrating players who would go 0-5 in a night. If you lose every game you’re going to give up and stop playing. The pursuit of that next tier and stringing wins together is more interesting, but much slower to progress.

Legendary and Diamond are supposed to be hard to reach and the majority of players were supposed to be sapphire or ruby.

Maybe the prizes for losing should be slightly higher so people care more about the journey than the destination.

My Problem at the moment…. I wanna touch the diamond like last season but atm I can’t…..

It’s only 50/50 right now because it pre-seeded all players based on their last season performance. Similar MMR players are placed into a winning team 50% of the time and a losing team 50% of the time, leading to the horribly frustrating experience that is the start of the season.

However as the season progresses, players from amber will progress up through the ranks. These players have lower MMR, so you will see the pro league players move to diamond, and the amber league players move to sapphire. Since you have a higher MMR than the amber players you will be consistently put on the winning team once you start getting matched with them. This will allow you to progress quickly until you catch back up with similar MMR ranked players at which point you will start getting 50/50 matches again.

By the end of the season you should be correctly placed based on your skill. It just seems frustrating because for the first few weeks you will probably make very little progress until people with lower MMR catch up to you.

Guys the season lasts until July. You weren’t seriously expecting to just blow right to the top in the early days of the season where you?

Even ruby is one of the hardest achievements in the game atm.

My experience is that it’s almost been a little too easy… AN needs to increase the amount of pips you get the longer you’re in a winstreak.

this season has been out for less than a week, it’s a bit early to be freaking out hmmm?

No it’s not if you understand how mentality works. People have played a TON of hours in that short time. You don’t “math” by days but by hours spent in those days playing ONLY that mod and trying to progress.

Arguably, at the start of the season, the population in PvP is the largest for extremely obvious reasons. As time passes things don;t “get better”. People stop playing because they either achieved what they wanted (for at least 70% that’s ruby) or give up because of frustration.

So all in all…. if things look bad now, there are absolutely no reasons they will get better as time passes. Only way they would get better is if anet drastically changes something.

Let’s do a test, go in PvP now (barely a week as u say) and ask in mapchat what are the queue times and against what people/divisions they are being matched and you will have your answer not from me..but from the people playing the game.

If ppl tell you they are ~sapph or higher…that have very big queues, and when they do queue up, they get matched against premades or much higher divisions, then that’s a clear sign the system doesn’t have a large enough active player database of people to pick players for matches. It just throws whatever vs whatever in an effort to just create a match. From what i know, the system has a chance to put you against either a +15 pip player or against a -15 pip player. I have had matches in which i as a sapphire in a pug group, paired against diamond premades. tell me how the distance from sapp to diamond is “15” and also tell me how the system that should be completely against pairing full pug against premades actually works.

ventusthunder.5067:

this season has been out for less than a week, it’s a bit early to be freaking out hmmm?

except things didn’t really get better the last 2 seasons.

Also just curious, why so many dragon emotes in amber saphire and emerald?

We are 1 week in its far from impossible. Patience grasshopper.

I’m 8 pipz from diamond with 61/123 wins which is just under 50%. It’s totally doable lol, just need effort.

Pretty sure someone did the math only need 43% win rate can go up still.

fishball.7204:

I’m 8 pipz from diamond with 61/123 wins which is just under 50%. It’s totally doable lol, just need effort.

Pretty sure someone did the math only need 43% win rate can go up still.

Shhhh you are ruining their “logic” with your facts. (I guess some people dont understand what the win streak and loss streak bonuses do.)

odstninja.1468:

ventusthunder.5067:

this season has been out for less than a week, it’s a bit early to be freaking out hmmm?

except things didn’t really get better the last 2 seasons.

Also just curious, why so many dragon emotes in amber saphire and emerald?

because… you don’t have to be good to be dragon rank?

bottom line is everyone just complains too much, play a lot and you’ll get there. i’ve been taking it easy with 40 games played, exactly midway through ruby and there’s no question at all i’ll get legendary again. it’s not hard and certainly not “impossible.”

Speaking as a person who is diamond by soloqing on thief, achieving diamond is very possible.

Rebound.3409:

Even ruby is one of the hardest achievements in the game atm.

Took me 6 days and 86 matches with a w/l ratio of 52.32% to cleanse emerald and shappire. By the way, just finished the achievements to the legendary backpack

i saw diamond on the second day while i was wvwing.

I got to diamond mainly solo queuing and had over 80% win rate. Wasn’t even playing the meta build. Obligatory get good son.

ellesee.8297:

I got to diamond mainly solo queuing and had over 80% win rate. Wasn’t even playing the meta build. Obligatory get good son.

pic or it didn’t happen. old timer.

:D

I’m curious exactly how well players are doing this season. Forums is not exactly a reliable (or healthy) way to measure people’s league sucess rate.

I’m currently halfway through Ruby myself. When I was in Sapphire and havent played, a few of my friends were already Ruby.

In my PoV, this season feels a bit easier.

I just hit diamond, it’s harder for me to progress then season 2 but still pretty easy for me. Took like 50 games with about 10 losses or so. Not sure exactly since im not logged in but around there.

Good, bad, skilled, not skilled, these things have pretty much nothing to do with your progression in leagues.

You are placed based on your MMR. if you happen to have a high MMR from previous seasons then you are almost guaranteed to have a very high win rate since you are always placed on the winning team. If you have a mid ranged MMR then you get the 50/50 matchups people are talking about since sometimes your MMR is bigger than the other people and sometimes not. If you have a low MMR, say if you just started playing last season, were able to get to diamond and started in a high league with a low MMR then your win rate this season is almost certain to be terrible since you are always placed on the losing team.

At least someone got it ^

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Good, bad, skilled, not skilled, these things have pretty much nothing to do with your progression in leagues.

You are placed based on your MMR. if you happen to have a high MMR from previous seasons then you are almost guaranteed to have a very high win rate since you are always placed on the winning team. If you have a mid ranged MMR then you get the 50/50 matchups people are talking about since sometimes your MMR is bigger than the other people and sometimes not. If you have a low MMR, say if you just started playing last season, were able to get to diamond and started in a high league with a low MMR then your win rate this season is almost certain to be terrible since you are always placed on the losing team.

I did not play season 1 or 2 so my MMR is low correct? I reached diamond. >80% win rate.

ellesee.8297:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Good, bad, skilled, not skilled, these things have pretty much nothing to do with your progression in leagues.

You are placed based on your MMR. if you happen to have a high MMR from previous seasons then you are almost guaranteed to have a very high win rate since you are always placed on the winning team. If you have a mid ranged MMR then you get the 50/50 matchups people are talking about since sometimes your MMR is bigger than the other people and sometimes not. If you have a low MMR, say if you just started playing last season, were able to get to diamond and started in a high league with a low MMR then your win rate this season is almost certain to be terrible since you are always placed on the losing team.

I did not play season 1 or 2 so my MMR is low correct? I reached diamond. >80% win rate.

He is completely wrong.

This season’s mm matches you with players with similar MMR. So low mmr players should have an advantage in terms of climbing(assuming same skill).

Win streak and breakout extra pips will make progress more easy

Yawn. Just get good. If ur mmr is 1 u can carry ur whole team urself from amber to legend in 1 week. Just practice, get good. And u can do it solo, w/o ts and w.o help. Just get good. MMR has 0 to do w/ anything. The game isn’t ruined. Ppl aren’t quitting. Its all roses for the high mmr ppl. that’s all that’s left. That’s all that matters. The rest of us don’t matter at all. We suck. We know it. We can stop pvping, a nd pveing , and wvwing, and gwing. OK? kk

ellesee.8297:

:D

thanks, been looking for more non meta battle builds, specifically builds that counter over repped meta builds like scrapper and condi reaper.

Just for curiosity, how long is the queue time in diamond? (Eu side)

I’m ruby but i don’t have really intention to play a lot to rush, Just to know.

Phil.8901:

Just for curiosity, how long is the queue time in diamond? (Eu side)

I’m ruby but i don’t have really intention to play a lot to rush, Just to know.

20 minutes…………

ellesee.8297:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Good, bad, skilled, not skilled, these things have pretty much nothing to do with your progression in leagues.

You are placed based on your MMR. if you happen to have a high MMR from previous seasons then you are almost guaranteed to have a very high win rate since you are always placed on the winning team. If you have a mid ranged MMR then you get the 50/50 matchups people are talking about since sometimes your MMR is bigger than the other people and sometimes not. If you have a low MMR, say if you just started playing last season, were able to get to diamond and started in a high league with a low MMR then your win rate this season is almost certain to be terrible since you are always placed on the losing team.

I did not play season 1 or 2 so my MMR is low correct? I reached diamond. >80% win rate.

I am not surprised.
You started with average MMR. I guess you are a good player. If you skill is higher then your MMR your win rate goes up since you might carry your team. By wining your MMr goes up. ITs a few games and thus MMR might be pushed significant.
So now you get on the better team side with about 60/40 win chance in your favor. you are still better then your MMR = another victory.
So unless you get some AFK or disconectors you win.

I even had a similar experience season 1. I played WvW roaming. Then i started PvP and learned maps and rotation in unranked. Boom no resistance first two devisions. Ruby was the first challenge.

Exciton.8942:

He is completely wrong.

This season’s mm matches you with players with similar MMR. So low mmr players should have an advantage in terms of climbing(assuming same skill).

Nope. This system, compared to s2, does try to limit the difference between teams, but is still stacking all better players on one side, creating a designated winner and designated loser team matchup.

And new players start with average MMR, not low one, and without a big history of games stabilizing it, can increase it fast if luck will place them on winner team in first few matches.

Just hit Diamond and I’m a DH to boot.

This season is more challenging, across the board. A lot of players who didn’t do great last seasons are having bigger issues this come round. But players who flew through S2 are doing relatively good in S3. My experiences so far, anywho.

This thread unfortunately doesn’t represent the populous. I’m seeing a lot of unique Diamond players currently.

Fay, much as I respect you as a Mesmer…

You stated that “if you lose all the time you deserve nothing.” Well, people play for rewards, including the intangible rewards that come from winning a match.

If there are no rewards, people won’t show up. Many people will simply cut there losses and move on if a game is made unpleasant.

The whole point of a matchmaking system is to ensure that the little league doesn’t face MLB teams. At this time… pvp matchmaking doesn’t seem to be doing that.

Based on last season, it’s never going to “level out” either. There were the same badly unbalanced matches up to the very last day.

Well I did legendary by losing less than 10 games. And I know player that did it without losing any games and in soloQ.

If you have average MMR and you soloQ then u’ll more likely have 50% winrate. So an option is to try queing with high MMR players (if you are skilled enough but stuck because of impossible matchups).

Exciton.8942:

ellesee.8297:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Good, bad, skilled, not skilled, these things have pretty much nothing to do with your progression in leagues.

You are placed based on your MMR. if you happen to have a high MMR from previous seasons then you are almost guaranteed to have a very high win rate since you are always placed on the winning team. If you have a mid ranged MMR then you get the 50/50 matchups people are talking about since sometimes your MMR is bigger than the other people and sometimes not. If you have a low MMR, say if you just started playing last season, were able to get to diamond and started in a high league with a low MMR then your win rate this season is almost certain to be terrible since you are always placed on the losing team.

I did not play season 1 or 2 so my MMR is low correct? I reached diamond. >80% win rate.

He is completely wrong.

This season’s mm matches you with players with similar MMR. So low mmr players should have an advantage in terms of climbing(assuming same skill).

Under ideal circumstances this would be true, but it relies on a number of things.

1. Sufficient players
2. Linear distribution of MMR (i.e. there are just as many high MMR players as there are mid MMR players as there are low MMR players)
3. 100% of players online at once

Unfortunately none of these things are true, although you may get a reasonable approximation at primetime. For one, I suspect the distribution of MMR is more bell curve shaped than it is linear, with the bulk of players in a mid range MMR with only a few high and low players. We can see how this works with a few thought experiments.

There is some player out there who has the highest MMR. This player will always be placed on the winning team because the matchmaking sorts the list with higher MMR players on one team and lower on another. So the top 5 players will always be on the winning team. However the top 5 players aren’t always on or even on at the same time. Players 6-10 may not have ever played at the same time as 1-5 so players 6-10are also always on the winning team unless they happen to play at the exact same time as players 1-5. But of course there are many many pvp matches going on at once and you are only matched to within 15 pips of other players. So this can be repeated over 10 or so matches at any given time. This can lead to hundreds if not thousands of players always being on the winning team. Likewise it can lead to many players always being on the losing team.

These effects can be mitigated during prime time where a larger % of the players are on at once and a closer MMR match is likely. This will normalize you towards the 50/50 rate, which may be very helpful if you find yourself constantly on the losing team.

No just diamond impossible if you are out of the favor of the Great MM god.

This is what i encounter. I get win streaks at primetime but off time i often get very bad matches due to a weak team that sometimes feel like playing their second match.
And one day i got the oposite off time winning easily. This is a clear indicator that my MMR is somewhere near average (maybe as a result from the ruby loss streak last season that ripped all pips close to diamond and stopped me playing), but my skill seems to be clearly above average. Offtime a low population grabs far spread player´s MMR and thus makes clear winners. Primtime makes close matches but i can carry / be the edge to win. Offtime no way to carry if on the short side .

I felt this season is a lot more balanced than the last one. Got quite a few losses getting to Diamond this time, about 16 losses or so. Last season I didn’t even have a dozen losses before I hit Legendary, and it was not my doing that’s for sure.

Rebound.3409:

At least someone got it ^

I get..therefore I do not play.
I passed on season one.
Did extremely well early to mid season 2..ups and downs in ruby, 50/50 in diamond.
This season I played three games and I could see by the quality of players i had been paired with the anet system has decided i am a scrub and jujst a stepping stone for other players. The system doesn’t take individual improvement into account.

This is why in ranked I started with 78% win rate, drop to 60%..eventuallydown to 51% by the end of diamond.

In any other format;
My unranked is 79%
My WvW solo’ing sits approximately at 80-ish percent.
Unranked thinks I am a demi god status. WvW thinks I am kinda a big deal. Hotjoin fears me..rank thinks I am a nub.

So, I am impossible

Cynz.9437:

I am in diamond and play relatively casual due to work and all. It is possible just takes a lot of games OR/and high MMR. The higher MMR you have the less games you need to get to legend. Oh and btw there are quite few people in legend already.

Thing is, with time the better players will move up the divisions, lower divisions (sapphire/ruby) will be filled with ex-ambers so you can farm your way to diamond eventually even if you are not really good.

Yup, I’ve reached my goal in the two previous seasons thanks to this. First season I wanted to get to ruby, I thought I was going to fail and was stuck in last tier sapphire. Went to a two week vacation, came back and climbed easily.

Next season I wanted to improve so I set Diamond as my goal. This time, I was stuck in the last tier of ruby for a few weeks, even sometimes dropping to the first tier. Again I took a break, which was this time only 3 days. What happened? Well you can guess, I succeeded in my goal. I got to diamond with relative ease.

So are you crybabies seeing a pattern here? It’s EXACTLY as Cynz described. If you can wait for even two days, you’ll notice that most of the same guys who previously kicked your butt will have moved on to the next division….

2 and 25 no 50/50 here and alot of the matches was up against triple stacked teams day before that win 1 or 2 lose 4 to 6 day before that 11 win streak 5 win streak 8 win 6 win streak when i got to sapphire over 80% wins percentage now it 30 somthing after the past 2 days so for me at this point yes impossible

Ithilwen.1529:

You stated that “if you lose all the time you deserve nothing.” Well, people play for rewards, including the intangible rewards that come from winning a match.

This is certainly true.

Ithilwen.1529:

If there are no rewards, people won’t show up. Many people will simply cut there losses and move on if a game is made unpleasant.

This is also true.

Ithilwen.1529:

The whole point of a matchmaking system is to ensure that the little league doesn’t face MLB teams. At this time… pvp matchmaking doesn’t seem to be doing that.

This is not entirely true, and worth discussing.

The matchmaking works with what it has. It will not match you with someone greater than a certain threshold away. This means that a ruby can’t be matched with an emerald, and a sapphire can’t be matched with a diamond or legendary. However, if there is a significant variance of skill within that matching threshold, you’ll end up seeing unbalanced games anyway, and this is not only ok, but it is required for this to work at all.

The whole point of a competitive league system is that stronger players move to higher leagues while weaker players stay in lower ones. The only way to accomplish this is by matching from the available pool of players, putting sometimes stronger players against sometimes weaker players, and seeing who wins. As the stronger players beat the weaker players, they eventually move out of the matching threshold and stop facing those weaker players. As time goes on, the leagues should even out and provide better matches.

Ithilwen.1529:

Based on last season, it’s never going to “level out” either. There were the same badly unbalanced matches up to the very last day.

So now we come to the issues with the system. The first issue is population. There simply aren’t enough people to reach a perfect equilibrium of skill levels. No matter what happens, your matching threshold will contain significant skill differences simply because there are so few people playing PvP, and this is not something the matchmaking can fix. It’s like giving someone a bag with 10 marbles, each a different color, and telling them to dig out 4 yellow ones. It’s simply an impossible task.

The other, and actually bigger, issue …is that players of this game demand progression. In league of legends, a 50% win rate will not cause you to progress. It will leave you at your current level in their leagues because a 50% winrate signifies that you’ve been properly placed with others of your skill level.

In GW2… a 50% winrate will guarantee that you make progress through the divisions. This has been done on purpose by Anet because GW2 players demand progression. Even if the matchmaking functioned perfectly and matched everyone with perfect skill level players, the fact that 50% winrate causes progression would result in the weaker players eventually catching up to those above them.

So. Is the implementation of these leagues perfect? No, it’s not…but expecting the matchmaking to somehow produce balanced matches with a tiny PvP population while simultaneously demanding rewards and league progression even at a 50% equilibrium is asking the PvP team to do the impossible. Ultimately, the sort of implementation we have right now is as good as it’s going to get, and even is incredibly generous to folks. You can still make progress with only a 43% winrate, you don’t even have to hit 50%! So ultimately…if you can’t manage to win 43% of the time no, you don’t deserve rewards and progression, and it’s these same people demanding that Anet provide them with rewards and progression that are the very cause of the problem they hate so much.

In theory yeah longer u play the more even the matches but past 2 seasons I’ve rarely if ever had close matches. Even this season I’d say maybe 15% of my games I made an impact.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/The-Real-Problem-With-the-Matchmaking/6172928

Those are my typical matches. Really lopsided.

The winrates don’t really bother me but PvP isn’t fun when you’re clubbing baby seals or getting destroyed by full stack of pros.

I mean ok the pop is small, the system tries but fails but my games basically feel like an RNG roll which is just bad.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Good, bad, skilled, not skilled, these things have pretty much nothing to do with your progression in leagues.

You are placed based on your MMR. if you happen to have a high MMR from previous seasons then you are almost guaranteed to have a very high win rate since you are always placed on the winning team. If you have a mid ranged MMR then you get the 50/50 matchups people are talking about since sometimes your MMR is bigger than the other people and sometimes not. If you have a low MMR, say if you just started playing last season, were able to get to diamond and started in a high league with a low MMR then your win rate this season is almost certain to be terrible since you are always placed on the losing team.

You keep telling yourself that, maybe one day it will be true.