Guild Wars 2

Hi.

So recently i’ve started to play soloQ, after 2 years of mostly wvw roaming (mostly cus i cba dealing with other ppl mistakes) i found it’s kinda easy to carry low elo games with D/P trickery so right now i’m 15 – 4 and currently at 97% rank with a Win rate of roughly 79% (highest in top 1000). The thing that boogles my mind is that there’s people with literally worse stats than me in every single point and are at top 300 or around that.

I don’t mind being 97% i think it’s fair as i have roughly 20 games and it should never be posible with such a few games to actually go to the highest elo, but how does someone with 9-5 W/L ratio get to be at top 300?

Would be cool if any Dev can give some insights in what terms are taken in consideration when calculating ratings on the leaderboards cus it just feels like something really unprofessional… e-sports, e-sports, E – SPORTS!

Also, i recall Anet saying there would be a Ladder system? Is that right? Any info on that?

Cheers

First thing you need to understand about elo is that win percentage is basically useless in terms of determining your skill level. What matters is the actual rating, which is obviously affected by your wins and your losses, but this carries different weight depending on who it is you are facing. Basically what elo says, is what your expected result vs your opponent will be. Lets say you play 10 matches vs the same person, and according to your elo rating system you got a 30 % chance to win against him. If you then win 3 matches and lose 7, your rating should be unaffected. If you win more, you are “overperforming” and your rating will increase and of course decrease when it’s the other way around.

What this means is basically your rating depends on who you are playing. If you are playing against the very best players and score “average” you are as good as them. If you play extremely weak players and steamroll them you will get a very high win percentage, but it may not mean that much. Your elo rating should reflect this.

That said, I am not entirely sure how the rating system in GW2 works, as there is decay, and simply playing a match (regardless if it’s a loss or win) will usually boost your ladder rank massively. Still, my point about win ratio still stands, it’s a pretty useless measurement in itself.

Is short: they do not

Suns Dusk.7201:

First thing you need to understand about elo is that win percentage is basically useless in terms of determining your skill level. What matters is the actual rating, which is obviously affected by your wins and your losses, but this carries different weight depending on who it is you are facing. Basically what elo says, is what your expected result vs your opponent will be. Lets say you play 10 matches vs the same person, and according to your elo rating system you got a 30 % chance to win against him. If you then win 3 matches and lose 7, your rating should be unaffected. If you win more, you are “overperforming” and your rating will increase and of course decrease when it’s the other way around.

What this means is basically your rating depends on who you are playing. If you are playing against the very best players and score “average” you are as good as them. If you play extremely weak players and steamroll them you will get a very high win percentage, but it may not mean that much. Your elo rating should reflect this.

That said, I am not entirely sure how the rating system in GW2 works, as there is decay, and simply playing a match (regardless if it’s a loss or win) will usually boost your ladder rank massively. Still, my point about win ratio still stands, it’s a pretty useless measurement in itself.

Yeah, i just noted my win ratio as another factor, i´m aware it’s a very relative number when it comes to deciding a place on a leaderboard. But yeah, i understand the elo/mmr mechanics, just not very well how they apply in gw2 :p

Lukin.4061:

Is short: they do not

just… this..

Ive had days where i win 8 times in a row, lose once and drop 3%. And days where i win everything and just rise 1% (usually i hover around 85-95% depending on how many games i play that day)……

Not to mention the darn boards only updates themselves once every full moon. Which doesnt help.

Alright, cheers evan.

Can’t wait for the Ladders tbh, will be a huge step forward in gw2 pvp, hopefully they come soon.

Evan Lesh.3295:

This is how they work

Your position on the leaderboards is based off your MMR, which is not a steady or linear way of tracking skill progression. This is why we are still focusing on ladders and seasons as a top priority in order to give players a more predictable way of showing skill progression over time.

Your glicko rating IS however good for matchmaking, as intended. It is used to find equal opponents for you to fight against, and becomes more or less accurate depending on the number of people playing and whether you play with the same five people every game.

The main factor in how stable your rank is depends on your MMR’s volatility, which will lower if you play many equal matches, and rise if you play less unequal matches. This is why you may not rise on the leaderboards if you play often, because your rating is only getting more accurate, not necessarily going up and down.

That makes sense, I always felt the leaderboards punish players who play more, but in turn it’s making your rating more accurate. However, the more you play the more it just feels like an uphill battle.

The longer you are away from the game, the more the system treats you like the leaderboard God. Example: randoms going 8+ months without a win, return and lose a game, given r1 (despite still 0 wins in 8+ months). Meanwhile, I can go on a 15 game winstreak within the top 25 of soloQ, and still not get r1.

It is better to look at the overall career of someone on either ladder (win/loss record and winrate). But even teamQ is somewhat inaccurate as many of the top players will pug/play with partial or joke teams and lose rank. Others will only play with serious top teams which are almost certain to win in the time they are queuing. And you also need to consider people playing alts or testing. In short, it is a flawed system.

I’m glad you’re working on ladders, but I feel compelled to point out that GW1 LAUNCHED with them NINE YEARS AGO. GW2 is only now getting them 2 years+ into the game. How many more years will have to pass before you guys finally realise you got it right the first time round and finally reimplement other abandoned GW1 features? 3 years for GvG? 4 for elimination arenas? 5 for a predictable and comprehensible “last in/first out” removal system for boons and conditions? 6 for a guild-based rating system rather than an individual one (it’s a team game after all)?

Seriously Evan, this isn’t directed at you cause you’re not management over there, but whoever made the call to throw out 7 years of GW1 pvp features and start over with nothing made a criminally bad decision and shouldn’t be in charge of an ant farm, much less a game with the sort of budget GW2 took to get made.

Evan Lesh.3295:

This is how they work

Your position on the leaderboards is based off your MMR, which is not a steady or linear way of tracking skill progression. This is why we are still focusing on ladders and seasons as a top priority in order to give players a more predictable way of showing skill progression over time.

Your glicko rating IS however good for matchmaking, as intended. It is used to find equal opponents for you to fight against, and becomes more or less accurate depending on the number of people playing and whether you play with the same five people every game.

The main factor in how stable your rank is depends on your MMR’s volatility, which will lower if you play many equal matches, and rise if you play less unequal matches. This is why you may not rise on the leaderboards if you play often, because your rating is only getting more accurate, not necessarily going up and down.

Seems like there is a difference between solo queue and team queue. The matchmaking in solo queue is horrible, but the matchmaking in team queue seems pretty good, even if it is 5 pugs vs 5 pugs (except when you match a 5 person premade with a 5 person pug)

Yeah i agree, temporary decay is very bad to show your progression because it’s so easy to reach the top of the leaderboard without playing.

I hope for Ladder and Seasons you will not use temporary decay Evan, because it’s not the right way to monitor progression because simply there is not true progression with a temporary decay.

And another thing, i don’t see many problems to show MMR for people, i mean if people know their mmr he can better understand matchmaking e their progression (in a not temporary decay ladder).

Many people do a lot of confusion between ranks and MMR because they don’t see their mmr, i’m sure a lot of people don’t know mmr exists.

Celtus.8456:

The longer you are away from the game, the more the system treats you like the leaderboard God. Example: randoms going 8+ months without a win, return and lose a game, given r1 (despite still 0 wins in 8+ months). Meanwhile, I can go on a 15 game winstreak within the top 25 of soloQ, and still not get r1.

It is better to look at the overall career of someone on either ladder (win/loss record and winrate). But even teamQ is somewhat inaccurate as many of the top players will pug/play with partial or joke teams and lose rank. Others will only play with serious top teams which are almost certain to win in the time they are queuing. And you also need to consider people playing alts or testing. In short, it is a flawed system.

I agree it’s very frustrating at times. You can play daily, have a lot of games played, and a well-above average w/l. Yet it seems impossible to make it to the top spot. Yet, someone who hasn’t played in months or just a very few games, tend just to shoot to the top immediately. I mean there’s no rewards for leaderboards anyways, so it’s not that big of a deal. However, it still seems like a slap in the face.

What Evan means is is that this game flopped to hard in pvp, so the pvp pop is quite low.

Due to this its hard/impossible to create matchups that make sense. So everyone gets matched with everyone.

It doesnt matter where u are in terms of MMR or how many games u played. You will play with ppl who just started to pvp or play.

They need ppl at Anet that have knowledge of creating and marketing a good pvp scene and developing their game based on the needs of a pvp player base. They dont have those now. Untill they realized and fixed this, pvp in this game will be in an everlasting slumber.

if the matchmaking works like that than how is it possible for a top 10 person to get queued up with 9 people that are around leaderboard rank 900-1000?

i sended it to support but no reaction maybe evan lash can say more about it….

(if you don’t believe me just, i can upload a picture if you want)

It would actually be very easy to include people from the top ranks, if the top ranks were only players who played actively and did not jump people back up to their ranks prior to any decay.

The system is so badly flawed, I honestly don’t understand how you can come up with such a system.

Lopez.7369:

Because the game’s population is so pathetic that the top 10 player’s queue would never pop if he had to wait for someone around his rating, so the game just picks up someone at rank 900 to 1,000 instead.

This is why the idea of ladders and leagues should frighten everyone as long as ArenaNet insists on sticking to conquest. Fracturing the community any further would just make the matchmaking even worse.

The problem is that Anets system isnt transparent. In other games waiting longer means you risk getting matched against lower rated ppl. Thats how it always worked in every competetive game i played.

Starting back in 2003/2004 during my Age of Mythology days: We queued for rated -> Insta pop till a minute meant you where matched against ppl within like 100 rating. Every minute you saw a message stating something like “widening search”, expanding the search another 100 rating each time that popped.

In wow something similar applied where you knew you where matched with equally rated ppl if your waiting time was short.

In GW2 you can get a pop within a minute and still get matched with ppl who have never been top 1000 while being top 50 yourself.

That combined with how the MMR works for new players/accounts…..

In no game that i played before GW2 it was possible as new player to get to the top 10 of the leaderboards within 10 games. If Anet thinks that is a good system or that its very possible to be a legit top 10 like that. It shows Anet doesnt take its own pvp very seriously.

supvil.3470:

In no game that i played before GW2 it was possible as new player to get to the top 10 of the leaderboards within 10 games.

Are you really sure you have played WoW ?
Because at the start of each xpack-season , there are some ppl that have play 10-18 games ,
reach 2100-2300 rating
and then afk for 3 months , till they get the ’’title’’

Edit: in order to get some conquest points , you have to play 7 times per week .
But for the ’’title’’ , there not a minimal game requirements

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Are you really sure you have played WoW ?
Because at the start of each xpack-season , there are some ppl that have play 10-18 games ,
reach 2100-2300 rating
and then afk for 3 months , till they get the ’’title’’

Edit: in order to get some conquest points , you have to play 7 times per week .
But for the ’’title’’ , there not a minimal game requirements

MMR doesnt get reset between seasons in WOW. So ppl who had lets say 2500 rating in season A, will get back there after approx 30-40 wins during season B. They have shown in the past that they belong at this MMR … so this isnt an issue. New accounts need way more games (esp if they play with similar experienced players).

In GW2 totally new accounts and players who had no games played during previous months get to the top 10 in EU or US after 10 games. Guys can get on lucky streaks in to the top 10. There is no such thing in WOW.

Edit @ your edit: You mean you can camp 3v3 all together and just cap in 2v2.

Edit 2: Ye , i played WOW. Both in arenas up till R1 and in RBGs up till 2.8 as you can see in the screenshot below.

Even new ppl in wow with a lucky streak can get to 2300 .
They dont have a personal MMR , but a character MMR (different characters = different rating and mmr)

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Even new ppl in wow with a lucky streak can get to 2300 .
They dont have a personal MMR , but a character MMR (different characters = different rating and mmr)

Not really no. Its literally impossible unless its a boost or with super experienced friends that are way above 2300 level. Even then its hard since most ppl at 2.3 tend to be multiseason glads during other seasons or on alts.

Hence why boosts in wow = someone else plays your character.

I know how MMR works in wow lol. I played the game since day 1 and up till MOP.

At the start fo the xpack-season , where ppl dont have the full pvp set , some new or old players can get lucky with some winning streaks , on the opponents that dont have too full pvp gear :P
Or ppl exploit the lack of balance at the start of the season :p

Or you know … a guild of firends … boosting each other …late on night ….
ermmmmm …nvm you dont heard anything from me :P

Killthehealersffs.8940:

At the start fo the xpack-season , where ppl dont have the full pvp set , some new or old players can get lucky with some winning streaks , on the opponents that dont have too full pvp gear :P
Or ppl exploit the lack of balance at the start of the season :p

Or you know … a guild of firends … boosting each other …late on night ….
ermmmmm …nvm you dont heard anything from me :P

One of the benefits of wow was the possibilitie to use addons. One of my favourites was an addon called arenahistorian. An addon that tracks your games. Of all players that i played against in 3v3 and checked out on the armoury ive literally never seen a beginner (as in hasnt played at least a couple of 100 games since patch 3.0)

And i checked 100s.

Check Eriux (Eu shaman from the Outland)
27 wins , 9 looses in 3v3 = 2509 rating (nowdays every1 can be 2500 ? :P)

Back in my days , i recalled ppl that where in the first page , with 14-20 games and 2100-2400 rating when the game lanched or a season started .
And thoses kittens kittens , went went afk for 3-4 months , so they can get the tittle and kitten their ego for the rest of the years…

Prime example:

#15charstuff

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Check Eriux (Eu shaman from the Outland)
27 wins , 9 looses in 3v3 = 2509 rating (nowdays every1 can be 2500 ? :P)

Back in my days , i recalled ppl that where in the first page , with 14-20 games and 2100-2400 rating when the game lanched or a season started .
And thoses kittens kittens , went went afk for 3-4 months , so they can get the tittle and kitten their ego for the rest of the years…

And why do you think they whent afk? Since they got boosted.

There are no new players in higher rated arenas.

So solo-que atm is a boost-machine :P
You depend from the other 4 teamates to win the match and get placed on the top of the charts :P
So we must delete it :P

Run away !!!

Killthehealersffs.8940:

So solo-que atm is a boost-machine :P
You depend from the other 4 teamates to win the match and get placed on the top of the charts :P
So we must delete it :P

Run away !!!

Difference is that in wow you always play against veterans at top tier (boosted accounts or real accounts). In GW2 (esp on the US ladders) youll play with and vs everything…no matter how high rated you are.

Boosted in wow = someone who is usually multiseason glad plays their account.

The difference in WoW and GW2 , is that person isnt forced to have a full team , in order to play rated PvP .
The fast paced (30 sec-1 min) que and its suffle system , in soloque ensure so ppl can have fun . Because its soloque ….
While the 2-10 min que in Team-arena tries to please both the solo-ers and the teams .

That why we dont have rewards based on the current Leaderboards .
Because the game is not balanced in 1v1 – nor a e-sport can be succeful with 5 strangers vs strangers.
While atm they ’’rewarding’’ TEAMS (as a game should) to external ’’events’’ , till Seasons arrives

Killthehealersffs.8940:

The difference in WoW and GW2 , is that person isnt forced to have a full team , in order to play rated PvP .
The fast paced (30 sec-1 min) que and its suffle system , in soloque ensure so ppl can have fun . Because its soloque ….
While the 2-10 min que in Team-arena tries to please both the solo-ers and the teams .

That why we dont have rewards based on the current Leaderboards .
Because the game is not balanced in 1v1 – nor a e-sport can be succeful with 5 strangers vs strangers.
While atm they ’’rewarding’’ TEAMS (as a game should) to external ’’events’’ , till Seasons arrives

The entire point of an MMR system is to seperate experienced/well practiced players from totally new players. Agreed?

The current MMR system in GW2 doesnt do that.

Youre talking about fun…..do you think i find it fun that i have to explain ppl:

- That capping an empty point with 3 is a bad
- That its possible to weapon swap (i kid you not).
- That chasing 1 thief with 4 isnt very bright
- How conquest works.
- Etc etc

Point is : bad MMR system ruins the fun of a lot of ppl. The difference in skilllevel leads to a lot of flaming and trolling.

Why battleground in WoW dont have MMR ? …..
Because :
a) they are fun
b) You dont have to w8 for an eternity to have fun
c) the competive format is Arenas ? (here it it the ’’external’’ events on the twitch)
(later on the Season will be the competive format)

Trolling and flaming : as painful as it sound and less costly , we need the LoL system where if a person get enought reported (lol you kittening noob) , he cant speak in the chat for 400 games :P

About 3 capping :
A person in order to take the Win or Loose Rewards he needs 30-40 points .
Try as a new player to try to kill an ’’unmovable’’ object such as tanks from their bases .
The simplier and most effective = try to multicap the closest base and then zergrush in the center base where you can get the rest of the points (Deal with it !)
Or try move all over the map to kill the squicy Teefs (or have some battle rather than killing the unstoppable bunker)

Edit: Try to understand something …
1 year ago , soloque had the stricked MMR criterea of teamque
Results: ppl moaned that the soloque had 6-8 min que and they where forced to face the same oponent
They called it boring
ATM AS PAINFUL YOU THINK IT IS , it adds some FLAVOR , when you face ‘’random elements’’

New ppl that join into tpvp , they dont moan about facing stronger players , but THEY HATE THE OTHER KITTEN PPL THAT ACT LIKE A BOSS AND FLAME THEM …

Edit2: going at the cinema , i will moan later :P

- Wow rated BGs have MMR … i even posted a screenshot of a rated battleground.
- Ive never heard anyone say theyd prefer short q times vs randoms over slightly longer q times that lead to quality games.

You cant join solo in rated battlegrounds in WoW.
So soloque is closiest in WoW normal bgs

About the ques : I think there is a twitch videos with the old ggs and the Top team , last summer , where they said ‘’we need more ppl to join the pvp scene , because w8ing from 8 min and facing the same oponents , and facing the same tactics creates a stale game’’
And they where right …. because facing the same old things doesnt improve you , but creates a boredom (a routine).

So using the Call of Duty analogy:
Random suffle and a ’’Noobtube’’ (cheasy specs) = more spicy life

Brb : Movie

Evan Lesh.3295:

This is how they work

Your position on the leaderboards is based off your MMR, which is not a steady or linear way of tracking skill progression. This is why we are still focusing on ladders and seasons as a top priority in order to give players a more predictable way of showing skill progression over time.

Your glicko rating IS however good for matchmaking, as intended. It is used to find equal opponents for you to fight against, and becomes more or less accurate depending on the number of people playing and whether you play with the same five people every game.

The main factor in how stable your rank is depends on your MMR’s volatility, which will lower if you play many equal matches, and rise if you play less unequal matches. This is why you may not rise on the leaderboards if you play often, because your rating is only getting more accurate, not necessarily going up and down.

tl;dr

Play less…gain more.

Esports

Killthehealersffs.8940:

About the ques : I think there is a twitch videos with the old ggs and the Top team , last summer , where they said ‘’we need more ppl to join the pvp scene , because w8ing from 8 min and facing the same oponents , and facing the same tactics creates a stale game’’
And they where right …. because facing the same old things doesnt improve you , but creates a boredom (a routine).

- The top team? Are you making things up now? Please give me the name of one team or player that prefers shorter q times vs sucky players over longer q times vs players that are closer to your own skilllevel.
- Waiting long is bad ofc…..but if we have shorter q times to get in games with hotjoin type of players its even worse.
- Ye because facing new players makes us improve right?
- What they meant was that we need more players including top tier players …. now we get matched with and against ppl that are barely better than most NPCs. Whats next? Long queuetime np…go play vs these 5 random NPCs?
- You know whats boring? Having to explain the basics 100 times. Having incredibly trollish unexperienced players in your team that just shout “deal with it” or “everyone has their own tactics” while you know or see they played 5-10 games in total.

I think you misunderstood him, Lopez: your MMR IS personal. I reckon that’s the problem, that it’s unsuitable for calculating your skill in a team game.

My suspicion is that this is also the reason you get people managing to climb to the top of the leaderboards with only a few games. Picture this: high ranked team gets a disconnect, gets beaten by a low-ranked team because of it. Result: the low-ranked team’s MMR rises hugely, because the game doesn’t take account of the 4v5. Alternatively, 1 extremely high ranked player gets teamed up with 4 complete beginners, they drag him down and he loses. Result: the opposing team gain massively in MMR, because the high-ranked player pulled his team’s average MMR up hugely.

An individual MMR system would work if the game mode was 1v1, but for something as involved as conquest, where having 1 complete beginner who doesn’t know that you don’t need 2 people to stand on a point to cap it, and with a revive system that means that a clueless person getting themselves killed can give free revives to ALL downed players in the opposing team, it means that having a bad player on your team can actually be worse than having 1 LESS player on your team, MMR is ineffective.

The only sensible and reliable system would be a TEAM-based MMR. And since each account can be in multiple guilds, a team-based rating can work without the problems we had back in GW1 with smurf guilds and the risk of tanking your guild’s rating. So come on, bring the guild back in the guild wars and give us team-based ratings and leaderboards!

Ah right, sorry, got what you meant now.

as top 10 against mostly not even top 1000 players.

As you can see this was around 9am PST = 6pm CEST in the europe server on a Wednesday. Don’t tell me me we’re so underpopulated near prime time that I get this matchup WITHIN 5 minutes of queue.

This has nothing to do with under population or a long queue. because i saw streamers get in to normal ranked matches. this is just a bad design.

http://i.imgur.com/apwuyZ9.jpg

Yes my paint skills are bad

PS: for the people interested how i made this picture with everyone on the leaderboards. its very simple add them to your friendlist and check out their ratings because they cant even be found at http://www.gw2score.com/PvP

PPS:
I didn’t want to rant about it on forums so i send it to gw2 support. but they gave me this email when i asked how this was possible:

" I do apologize for the delay in responding to this issue. The best way to have your feedback or suggestions for Guild Wars 2 reach someone in development is to post it in a public area such as our Official Forums, Twitter feed, or Facebook page. The more people who view and comment on it, the more likely developers will take notice."

so it seems they can’t communicate internally about issues that are incoming from support so that’s why I post it here now.

That’s typical, its like Anet expects the higher ranked people to be able to carry whole teams. People can say what they want about the old matchmaking system, however at least I knew the people on my team would be my skill level.

I joined 2 matches this weekend because hotjoin was, um, worse than usual... #2 Solo Arena for the moment. I’ve only got 17 games in.

I’m not even that great a team player. I just try to not do anything stupid (chasing thieves, ignoring the captures, forgetting to dodge, etc).

That explains a lot. LB are BS, at least 10 or more 4v5 daily. And those who play often get punished. While those who play once a day rise up on the LB. I just hope your ladder system it’s not as fail as this.

lol leaderboards never worked…they just reward ppl for NOT playing the game (Or playing 1-2 games every 2 days in odd times just to keep up with decay) …in order to get up you must win vs ppl above you….if ppl above you don’t play (Or only play when other dangerous teams are not around) you can only keep going vs teams that won’t push you up and you’ll eventually loose and go back down..simple as that. Just give no kittens to ladder, still better solution..i’m still being around 150 on this account while going pug in tque…so it’s not even that hard to get there if you really want to show off some worthless numbers..

Imo in any video game it is close to impossible to have an accurate leaderboard. Taking into consideration just the amount of people playing and team/solo it is very difficult. If A-Net can actually make an accurate leaderboard with the amount of people who play etc.. then they are true geniuses. Leaderboards are only accurate when you have a controlled amount of people.

Zoso.8279:

Imo in any video game it is close to impossible to have an accurate leaderboard. Taking into consideration just the amount of people playing and team/solo it is very difficult. If A-Net can actually make an accurate leaderboard with the amount of people who play etc.. then they are true geniuses. Leaderboards are only accurate when you have a controlled amount of people.

But then they’ll show how low comeptitive pvp base is…and how good they managed to kill this pvp making good players quit or just stop going seriously after they went full reterd mode caring more for casuals than competitive ones.. (april 15th patch it’s just an example)

this is not gonna happen

The absolute largest error in the leaderboard system is that it displays rating for individual players when those ratings aren’t individual at all. They are ratings that completely revolve around who that individual plays with and if “that team” is good enough to catch wins. Due to this, the leaderboard ratings are an extremely inaccurate judgment of individual skill.

These leaderboard ratings should have been named team ratings from the beginning

Trevor Boyer.6524:

The absolute largest error in the leaderboard system is that it displays rating for individual players when those ratings aren’t individual at all. They are ratings that completely revolve around who that individual plays with and if “that team” is good enough to catch wins. Due to this, the leaderboard ratings are an extremely inaccurate judgment of individual skill.

These leaderboard ratings should have been named team ratings from the beginning

Again…how can you make a team based ladder when there are actually like…maybe…five (Well…3-4 more likely) competitive teams (Those who sit on top 25-30 and never move from there) while others are just semi-arranged teams showing up and maybe disbanding a week later? This is something they should have done more than one year ago when there were many more good players and teams around…but now a team based ladder is not going to work, pvp is already too fubar for dat (Even if it would be the right way to go)…it’s just…too late. At this point the only thing that comes to mind is to totally remove ladder, or resetting it while adding non-ranked tque and soloq (Where you can go for fun) and totally removing hotjoin since it has no point already and with non-ranked tque and soloq at least ppl would learn something (Outside zerging like reterded wvsw chickens) without hurting their rank….ranked soloq and tque for ppl who want to go serious, non-ranked tque and soloq for new players and ppl testing stuff. Too bad i already know is not gonna happen…they didn’t even remove skyhammer from soloq…whan can you expect from them? lol