Guild Wars 2

DaShi.1368:

Vapour.7348:

3 burning stacks every time it’s crossed (plus physical damage at cast) with a short 10s traited cd is probably the most powerful burning skill in the game.

With absolutely no counterpla…wait, just don’t cross the flames. Who thinks crossing flames should be a good thing?

i do it on some of my toons and some builds, intentionally run into flames, sometimes other AOE so my block activates and other abilities proc and wreck faces.

DaShi.1368:

Placing it strategically should be rewarding. It’s not really a strong skill because it can so easily be avoided. Eles who work hard to get you to go through it should be rewarded for that. Otherwise, it’s just a fire field or combo off of.

If by “placing strategically” you mean “spamming it somewhere on top of a point (doesn’t really matter where) every time it comes off of cooldown”…

It’ll come when the cele necro nerfs come.

Solori.6025:

I am all for a PU nerf.
But you can’t really say it makes that big of an impact in conquest style game modes.
There are much better traits for that.
You don’t really see PU outside of hotjoin and wvw

PU has a pretty big impact in conquest – sure, it’s not as vital as Dom or Dueling for direct combat power, but stealthing while rotating, which forces opponents out of position (because whichever way they choose, you choose the other to make their choice wrong) is a really powerful tool for winning matches. Plus, it makes it much easier to engage out of stealth with those melee range bursts.

Now, in WvW it’s a legitimately overpowered trait – and the combination with Chronomancer is downright abusive. Until that drops though I wouldn’t say its power in conquest alone warrants some sort of emergency nerf.

The Pledge bug is a much bigger deal for conquest – 1.5s per tick instead of 1.5% per tick is kind of a big difference.

Cynz.9437:

DaShi.1368:

Vapour.7348:

3 burning stacks every time it’s crossed (plus physical damage at cast) with a short 10s traited cd is probably the most powerful burning skill in the game.

With absolutely no counterpla…wait, just don’t cross the flames. Who thinks crossing flames should be a good thing?

because eles don’t have any other skill to force you out of circle~

Wrong: updraft. But it’s hardly the point, it limits your movement a lot, which can be really strong in teamfights (other knockbacks, guardians bursting in the center with you). When I see eles on point as a PU shatter mesmer, I don’t even bother to engage, it’s a loss of time.

I read a lot that ele is OP, i dont know about this always when i find an averege level ele the most times i win (yes maybe some skiils need a bigger cool down), but mesmer is out of the world permand stealth with clowns that can hit you when in stealth and OP damage

aggelos r.5387:

I read a lot that ele is OP, i dont know about this always when i find an averege level ele the most times i win (yes maybe some skiils need a bigger cool down), but mesmer is out of the world permand stealth with clowns that can hit you when in stealth and OP damage

Phantasm Berserker can shred 5k easily against tanky targets.
Phantasm Berserker can deal 0 damage in team fights.

Mesmers have… various problems across the board.

I’m still not happy with ranger owls dealing 5k damage with their active. I get it, they were getting blow up by burning but giving them 150 stat boosts across the board TWICE was not the answer.

of all the nerfs they didn’t change the actual problem.. 100% stun chance no matter what, its so stupid

Ensign.2189:

Solori.6025:

I am all for a PU nerf.
But you can’t really say it makes that big of an impact in conquest style game modes.
There are much better traits for that.
You don’t really see PU outside of hotjoin and wvw

PU has a pretty big impact in conquest – sure, it’s not as vital as Dom or Dueling for direct combat power, but stealthing while rotating, which forces opponents out of position (because whichever way they choose, you choose the other to make their choice wrong) is a really powerful tool for winning matches. Plus, it makes it much easier to engage out of stealth with those melee range bursts.

Now, in WvW it’s a legitimately overpowered trait – and the combination with Chronomancer is downright abusive. Until that drops though I wouldn’t say its power in conquest alone warrants some sort of emergency nerf.

The Pledge bug is a much bigger deal for conquest – 1.5s per tick instead of 1.5% per tick is kind of a big difference.

To be honest if anyone visits the Mesmer forums you’ll see a lot of people whining about PU and a lot of mesmer players showing, with maths, that the problem in WvW is mostly down to the torch trait the pledge.

Another thing people forget to mention when they talk about PU is mesmer lost all clone death traits which has a 2 fold effect.

1. There’s no punishment for killing clones.
2. Mesmers used to be able to disengage (certainly in WvW) better because the opponent would be crippled for a fair amount of time without cleanses.

When you factor that in the PU buff isn’t so bad and the boons aren’t exactly reliable, it’s luck if you get aegis.

ozzy.8059:

of all the nerfs they didn’t change the actual problem.. 100% stun chance no matter what, its so stupid

This is what happens when arena net is not serious about fixing problems.

The pets did not get a 150 attribute boost twice. They have always had a possible 300 stat boost when going into BM, now as with all classes half of it is made baseline and half of it is with the BM line.

The issue was that before the bug fix, the baseline part did not exist. So you would only upgrade your pet with 150 points if you went into BM. Now the baseline stat bug was fixed so you have the max 300 possible again.

they are not op, l2p and stop play berserk war/ranger

apharma.3741:

Ensign.2189:

Solori.6025:

I am all for a PU nerf.
But you can’t really say it makes that big of an impact in conquest style game modes.
There are much better traits for that.
You don’t really see PU outside of hotjoin and wvw

PU has a pretty big impact in conquest – sure, it’s not as vital as Dom or Dueling for direct combat power, but stealthing while rotating, which forces opponents out of position (because whichever way they choose, you choose the other to make their choice wrong) is a really powerful tool for winning matches. Plus, it makes it much easier to engage out of stealth with those melee range bursts.

Now, in WvW it’s a legitimately overpowered trait – and the combination with Chronomancer is downright abusive. Until that drops though I wouldn’t say its power in conquest alone warrants some sort of emergency nerf.

The Pledge bug is a much bigger deal for conquest – 1.5s per tick instead of 1.5% per tick is kind of a big difference.

To be honest if anyone visits the Mesmer forums you’ll see a lot of people whining about PU and a lot of mesmer players showing, with maths, that the problem in WvW is mostly down to the torch trait the pledge.

Another thing people forget to mention when they talk about PU is mesmer lost all clone death traits which has a 2 fold effect.

1. There’s no punishment for killing clones.
2. Mesmers used to be able to disengage (certainly in WvW) better because the opponent would be crippled for a fair amount of time without cleanses.

When you factor that in the PU buff isn’t so bad and the boons aren’t exactly reliable, it’s luck if you get aegis.

i can go nuts on clones all day, the mesmer can produce them faster then you can kill them and you are doing exactly what the mesmer wants you to do, stand next to the clones so it can shatter them. here is an example

i can put down 2 wells and the clones are still standing after this.. with more being pumped out at the same time, it takes a full life transfer to take out the clones, (as if the mesmer is going to let that happen) this is on my tanky build with 2k power 3k defence and bloodlust with 45% crit chance.

if i go full zerker may as well just afk its a free feed for the mesmer

Nova Stiker.8396:

I’m still not happy with ranger owls dealing 5k damage with their active. I get it, they were getting blow up by burning but giving them 150 stat boosts across the board TWICE was not the answer.

the ranger pets are supposed to get a total of 300 stats increase if they take the beast master specialization.

as what Chokolata explained earlier:

Chokolata.1870:

The pets did not get a 150 attribute boost twice. They have always had a possible 300 stat boost when going into BM, now as with all classes half of it is made baseline and half of it is with the BM line.

The issue was that before the bug fix, the baseline part did not exist. So you would only upgrade your pet with 150 points if you went into BM. Now the baseline stat bug was fixed so you have the max 300 possible again.

ozzy.8059:

apharma.3741:

Ensign.2189:

Solori.6025:

I am all for a PU nerf.
But you can’t really say it makes that big of an impact in conquest style game modes.
There are much better traits for that.
You don’t really see PU outside of hotjoin and wvw

PU has a pretty big impact in conquest – sure, it’s not as vital as Dom or Dueling for direct combat power, but stealthing while rotating, which forces opponents out of position (because whichever way they choose, you choose the other to make their choice wrong) is a really powerful tool for winning matches. Plus, it makes it much easier to engage out of stealth with those melee range bursts.

Now, in WvW it’s a legitimately overpowered trait – and the combination with Chronomancer is downright abusive. Until that drops though I wouldn’t say its power in conquest alone warrants some sort of emergency nerf.

The Pledge bug is a much bigger deal for conquest – 1.5s per tick instead of 1.5% per tick is kind of a big difference.

To be honest if anyone visits the Mesmer forums you’ll see a lot of people whining about PU and a lot of mesmer players showing, with maths, that the problem in WvW is mostly down to the torch trait the pledge.

Another thing people forget to mention when they talk about PU is mesmer lost all clone death traits which has a 2 fold effect.

1. There’s no punishment for killing clones.
2. Mesmers used to be able to disengage (certainly in WvW) better because the opponent would be crippled for a fair amount of time without cleanses.

When you factor that in the PU buff isn’t so bad and the boons aren’t exactly reliable, it’s luck if you get aegis.

i can go nuts on clones all day, the mesmer can produce them faster then you can kill them and you are doing exactly what the mesmer wants you to do, stand next to the clones so it can shatter them. here is an example

i can put down 2 wells and the clones are still standing after this.. with more being pumped out at the same time, it takes a full life transfer to take out the clones, (as if the mesmer is going to let that happen) this is on my tanky build with 2k power 3k defence and bloodlust with 45% crit chance.

if i go full zerker may as well just afk its a free feed for the mesmer

That is a flat out lie.

Lets say you’re using a dagger, weapon strength = 952.5

Well of Suffering has a multiplier of 3.96 which is 0.66 per pulse.
And lets say your “tanky” set up is the celestial amulet.

1560*0.66*952.5/1888 = 519 damage to a clone per pulse, non crit and not taking modifiers into account.

Clone health is 2433 in PvP which means even without crits you will kill a clone (note: it’s AoE so can kill multiple) with 1 well of suffering.

For soldiers amulet you’re looking at:

2200*0.66*952.5/1888 = 732.5

This will kill a clone in 4 hits.

Life transfer has poor scaling but still:

Soldier amulet: 2200*0.25*952.5/1888 = 277 per pulse.

It pulses 9 times in 3s and clone do not dodge so is more than capable even in a soldier build of killing clones easily and replenishing your health due to more targets and blood magic tree. You will gain more health and the advantage here.

This is also without pointing out that if anyone else joins especially with any form of cleave clones will die very fast.

Unfortunately the wiki doesn’t have a coefficient for well of corruption. Either way you should be more than capable of killing clones in a few auto attacks even in soldiers. If you’re in a support build you should be with allies (you know, to support them) in which case 2.4k health clones will die without anyone giving it a thought.

I also missed out things like self buffs of might stacks, fury, self damage modifiers, debuffs on clones like vuln, chill, etc. all of which will drastically increase your ability to kill them. Needless to say a zerker build can one shot clones with a simple crit which is not uncommon when they’re running at nearly 80% crit chance.

Problems with clones is a 100% learn to play issue.

Except its is very relevant as it gives the Mesmer the same advantage as the Thief used to have, complete initiative in a fight. The issue is that the Mesmer is much better in a team fight.

Granted, the Thief will always have a role in Conquest due to obscene mobility and stealth for back caps, the Mesmer PU trait is completely overbudged with very long stealth duration and boons to boot.

Chokolata.1870:

Mesmer PU trait is completely overbudged with very long stealth duration and boons to boot.

ah, its all right, because the mesmer does not deal backstab damage like thieves.

plus the boons obtained are very random, and have only a very short duration of 3 seconds.

Actually, the mesmer can spike far harder then the thief, and has more survivability. This is why PU is OTT.

Cynz.9437:

DaShi.1368:

OMG, comboing skills. OP! OP!

i can only dream of having same dmg, same survival, same CC, same team and same moblity all in one build on my thief or necro…..

why is it ok for ele to have it all and be very effective at it?

Well I as an ele would love to have 3 health bars and a lich form, would also love to have the same mobility and stealth as a thief so we don´t have it all…just saying,

But yeah eles need to be tunned down a bit:

->Reduce fire stacks on dagger skills
->Increase cool-down on blind on burn

That would be a first great step, from there we should see and reevaluate to see if extra nerfs are needed…

Chokolata.1870:

Actually, the mesmer can spike far harder then the thief, and has more survivability. This is why PU is OTT.

Can you show me where to find concrete numbers on this? I’m curious how mes and thief compare. Out of the top of my head for mesmer, it’s about 4.5k phantasm, 1.5k Mind stab, 1.5k mind slash, and say a 3-hit mind wrack for 5k . So I’m up to 12.5k for a good burst where most attacks crit (+2.5k for air, fire, leach), repeatable every 12-ish(?) sec (except for the phantasm, unless you alternate or use signet of the ether). I’ll verify this later, can anyone correct me on this?

Of course, if you land all of this, your opponent is probably afk…

The biggest OP thing about Mesmer is that it is a mid range character and it is the most powerful mid range character actually. This means that it’s very dynamic allows it to kite you. A Thief as example, must get near a Warrior or Guardian or anything else for that matter where as a Mesmer can stay just far enough away and kite you. It makes you chase it and there is hidden advantage to this. A good Mesmer has a lot of control of your position around a node.

I think it’ll be a while, homeslice. Gamer Up and roll mesmer.

Honestly D/D ele is so kittening bs that it kills all the fun in PvP for me. If the enemy team has 1-2 D/D eles and mine doesn’t I seriously consider just closing the game every time. It doesn’t matter how good you are with the absolutely bullkitten amounts of damage mitigation they have:
-incredible passive healing through signet of restoration
-massive amounts of blinds
-Lots of condition cleansing and stun breaks
-disengage out the wazzo
-10 stacks of stability available from one skill
-2-3 hard CC skills
-lots of burst healing from water attunement without even having to use the actual heal skill
-can just about permanently maintain vigor, regeneration, and protection. Boon hate has little to no effect at all since the boons are so easily brought back.

Lets not forget that the blinds, CC, water attuenment healibng are all AOE which help allies too

striker.3704:

Honestly D/D ele is so kittening bs that it kills all the fun in PvP for me. If the enemy team has 1-2 D/D eles and mine doesn’t I seriously consider just closing the game every time. It doesn’t matter how good you are with the absolutely bullkitten amounts of damage mitigation they have:
-incredible passive healing through signet of restoration
-massive amounts of blinds
-Lots of condition cleansing and stun breaks
-disengage out the wazzo
-10 stacks of stability available from one skill
-2-3 hard CC skills
-lots of burst healing from water attunement without even having to use the actual heal skill
-can just about permanently maintain vigor, regeneration, and protection. Boon hate has little to no effect at all since the boons are so easily brought back.

Lets not forget that the blinds, CC, water attuenment healibng are all AOE which help allies too

Jesus…all things u say here have always been a factor on ele before patch and even with all this it was falling out of meta…

Now stop saying every good thing the eles have is OP, it gets ridiculous fast and you consistantly do this in every thread.

Burning stacks are over the top and should be tone down on fire line, blind on burn is also over the top, resolve those issues and reevaluate.

Reading your posts is like reading OH GOD THIEFS ARE OP, THEY HAVE STEALTH AND ARE ABLE TO SPIKE NERF ALL REMOVES FUN…it gets old fast.

Just to remember we have the lesser health pool in the whole game, in case you forgot…

abc.5790:

Cynz.9437:

Vapour.7348:

Cynz.9437:

DaShi.1368:

The d/d ele simply isn’t as OP as you think it is. 90% of it’s damage can be mitigated just by moving around. The rest you have blocks, dodges, blinds, and cleanse for. Killing a d/d ele can be tough, but getting killed by one…I can’t remember the last time.

um those tactics may have worked before patch when it was actually possible to interrupt ele in fire w/o being perma blinded, when CDs on fire weren’t so low and burning didn#t stack and didn’t have such absurd base numbers…..

blind is close to worthless vs ele besides very few cases as most of theit dmg is aoe or channeled

oh i am sry i can count very few builds that actually have blocks and none of them are effective vs current dd ele

no cleanse in game can keep up with ele condi uptime (besides other ele ofc)

yeah it just takes at least 2 players or another ele to kill 1 ele…. balance archived guize!

My last match our ele beat 2 thieves at home and was boasting how good he was coz his HP was full. I wanted to say it was Anet’s ele programmer that was good. But seriously, I think we have a problem when one class can effortlessly beat 2 thieves and still have full HP.

i was talking about similar skill level but yeah you got the idea

I think she’s a pro girl thief

why do i get a weird feeling of being stalked

Cynz.9437:

abc.5790:

Cynz.9437:

Vapour.7348:

Cynz.9437:

DaShi.1368:

The d/d ele simply isn’t as OP as you think it is. 90% of it’s damage can be mitigated just by moving around. The rest you have blocks, dodges, blinds, and cleanse for. Killing a d/d ele can be tough, but getting killed by one…I can’t remember the last time.

um those tactics may have worked before patch when it was actually possible to interrupt ele in fire w/o being perma blinded, when CDs on fire weren’t so low and burning didn#t stack and didn’t have such absurd base numbers…..

blind is close to worthless vs ele besides very few cases as most of theit dmg is aoe or channeled

oh i am sry i can count very few builds that actually have blocks and none of them are effective vs current dd ele

no cleanse in game can keep up with ele condi uptime (besides other ele ofc)

yeah it just takes at least 2 players or another ele to kill 1 ele…. balance archived guize!

My last match our ele beat 2 thieves at home and was boasting how good he was coz his HP was full. I wanted to say it was Anet’s ele programmer that was good. But seriously, I think we have a problem when one class can effortlessly beat 2 thieves and still have full HP.

i was talking about similar skill level but yeah you got the idea

I think she’s a pro girl thief

why do i get a weird feeling of being stalked

lol. what? no

It’s just rare to see females pvp with the hardest class to master in a community with a 1:50 female to male ratio. That’s pretty cool, you know. I failed at thief

abc.5790:

Cynz.9437:

abc.5790:

Cynz.9437:

Vapour.7348:

Cynz.9437:

DaShi.1368:

The d/d ele simply isn’t as OP as you think it is. 90% of it’s damage can be mitigated just by moving around. The rest you have blocks, dodges, blinds, and cleanse for. Killing a d/d ele can be tough, but getting killed by one…I can’t remember the last time.

um those tactics may have worked before patch when it was actually possible to interrupt ele in fire w/o being perma blinded, when CDs on fire weren’t so low and burning didn#t stack and didn’t have such absurd base numbers…..

blind is close to worthless vs ele besides very few cases as most of theit dmg is aoe or channeled

oh i am sry i can count very few builds that actually have blocks and none of them are effective vs current dd ele

no cleanse in game can keep up with ele condi uptime (besides other ele ofc)

yeah it just takes at least 2 players or another ele to kill 1 ele…. balance archived guize!

My last match our ele beat 2 thieves at home and was boasting how good he was coz his HP was full. I wanted to say it was Anet’s ele programmer that was good. But seriously, I think we have a problem when one class can effortlessly beat 2 thieves and still have full HP.

i was talking about similar skill level but yeah you got the idea

I think she’s a pro girl thief

why do i get a weird feeling of being stalked

lol. what? no

It’s just rare to see females pvp with the hardest class to master in a community with a 1:50 female to male ratio. That’s pretty cool, you know. I failed at thief

Well i would rather not advertise it.
Also, each its own. I could never find any love for engi or ranger when i tried those classes. I am however glad when i have good engi on my team for example

Wickedesigns.1287:

I think it’ll be a while, homeslice. Gamer Up and roll mesmer.

Sadly, I think this is the best advice in this thread to the OP’s question.

Since the developers are either:

1.) Blind to the these issues
2.) OK with certain professions being more powerful than others or
3.) Just have no idea how to bring these professions in line

I think it best that if you want to play sPvP that you just roll one of the flavor-of-the-six-month-possibly-a-full-year professions and have fun pwning everyone with ease. I watched a Mesmer the other night whose guild tag was “kek ez pz toez”. Gotta be funny when the players are actually trolling the profession balance with their own guild tag.

Alternatively, you could just get your PvP fix from playing one of the many games that actually get balance passes, bug fixes, and actually punish people for using exploits. There are a few around.

Removing Stealth from Mesmer would fix a lot of things, this belongs to Thief just like Aegis belongs to Guardian, and then it would stop being a faceroll class in any game mode…

Cynz.9437:

abc.5790:

Cynz.9437:

abc.5790:

Cynz.9437:

Vapour.7348:

Cynz.9437:

DaShi.1368:

The d/d ele simply isn’t as OP as you think it is. 90% of it’s damage can be mitigated just by moving around. The rest you have blocks, dodges, blinds, and cleanse for. Killing a d/d ele can be tough, but getting killed by one…I can’t remember the last time.

um those tactics may have worked before patch when it was actually possible to interrupt ele in fire w/o being perma blinded, when CDs on fire weren’t so low and burning didn#t stack and didn’t have such absurd base numbers…..

blind is close to worthless vs ele besides very few cases as most of theit dmg is aoe or channeled

oh i am sry i can count very few builds that actually have blocks and none of them are effective vs current dd ele

no cleanse in game can keep up with ele condi uptime (besides other ele ofc)

yeah it just takes at least 2 players or another ele to kill 1 ele…. balance archived guize!

My last match our ele beat 2 thieves at home and was boasting how good he was coz his HP was full. I wanted to say it was Anet’s ele programmer that was good. But seriously, I think we have a problem when one class can effortlessly beat 2 thieves and still have full HP.

i was talking about similar skill level but yeah you got the idea

I think she’s a pro girl thief

why do i get a weird feeling of being stalked

lol. what? no

It’s just rare to see females pvp with the hardest class to master in a community with a 1:50 female to male ratio. That’s pretty cool, you know. I failed at thief

Well i would rather not advertise it.
Also, each its own. I could never find any love for engi or ranger when i tried those classes. I am however glad when i have good engi on my team for example

Good thieves are such a huge asset to a team. It sounds like you know your stuff. I play in NA and used to 2-3man queue with an aggressive capping thief. Map aware thieves are the best teammates IMO

Amineo.8951:

Removing Stealth from Mesmer would fix a lot of things, this belongs to Thief just like Aegis belongs to Guardian, and then it would stop being a faceroll class in any game mode…

actually i think mes do need stealth, just not as much as they have it atm
adjustment to PU and pledge would be better choice, imo

Cynz.9437:

Amineo.8951:

Removing Stealth from Mesmer would fix a lot of things, this belongs to Thief just like Aegis belongs to Guardian, and then it would stop being a faceroll class in any game mode…

actually i think mes do need stealth, just not as much as they have it atm
adjustment to PU and pledge would be better choice, imo

I don’t think they do, and even if it might be true, it’s way too powerful compared to Thief, the clones are enough in my oppinion…

While the thief will always have a role in high level organised play due to extreme mobility, it is not really OP. Annoying yes, OP no.

Mesmer on the other hand, does everything a thief can do, even if in a bit of a different way due to Portal but also provides more team utility and far more survivability.

Aside from stealth and dodges, the mesmer has great defensive boons via PU and a lot of hard invulnerabilities. Also, a lot of blinds and damage components come from passive trait procs like blinding dissipation, suggestions etc…

The main issue however is that, compared to thief, the mesmer is far safer in doing its combos and can repeat them within 15 seconds. Not only does it dictate the tempo, but it can also sustain very well against counter pressure.

Talyn Sneider.1825:

striker.3704:

Honestly D/D ele is so kittening bs that it kills all the fun in PvP for me. If the enemy team has 1-2 D/D eles and mine doesn’t I seriously consider just closing the game every time. It doesn’t matter how good you are with the absolutely bullkitten amounts of damage mitigation they have:
-incredible passive healing through signet of restoration
-massive amounts of blinds
-Lots of condition cleansing and stun breaks
-disengage out the wazzo
-10 stacks of stability available from one skill
-2-3 hard CC skills
-lots of burst healing from water attunement without even having to use the actual heal skill
-can just about permanently maintain vigor, regeneration, and protection. Boon hate has little to no effect at all since the boons are so easily brought back.

Lets not forget that the blinds, CC, water attuenment healibng are all AOE which help allies too

Jesus…all things u say here have always been a factor on ele before patch and even with all this it was falling out of meta…

Now stop saying every good thing the eles have is OP, it gets ridiculous fast and you consistantly do this in every thread.

Burning stacks are over the top and should be tone down on fire line, blind on burn is also over the top, resolve those issues and reevaluate.

Reading your posts is like reading OH GOD THIEFS ARE OP, THEY HAVE STEALTH AND ARE ABLE TO SPIKE NERF ALL REMOVES FUN…it gets old fast.

Just to remember we have the lesser health pool in the whole game, in case you forgot…

I have never complained abnout thiefs, anf I love how you haven’t refuted any of my points, you only throw out personal insults without any substance.

prove me wrong, you’re adding nothing to the thread otherwise.

Mesmers would be much easier to fight with old pu.

With the old version you needed to hurry to get behind the enemy after stealthing – which made shatters quite predictable and easy to dodge.
So instead you needed good gameplay and this also justified the high damage.

After the buff you can stealth, run behind your enemy, drink a cup of tea, remember the first 10000 digits of pi and eventually do your incredible shatter out of nowhere paired with an instant stun.

Cynz.9437:

Amineo.8951:

Removing Stealth from Mesmer would fix a lot of things, this belongs to Thief just like Aegis belongs to Guardian, and then it would stop being a faceroll class in any game mode…

actually i think mes do need stealth, just not as much as they have it atm
adjustment to PU and pledge would be better choice, imo

^ This, what PU needs is to just have it reverted back to what it was pre-patch, 50% stealth increase. There was no reason to buff it to 100%.

Lucentfir.7430:

Cynz.9437:

Amineo.8951:

Removing Stealth from Mesmer would fix a lot of things, this belongs to Thief just like Aegis belongs to Guardian, and then it would stop being a faceroll class in any game mode…

actually i think mes do need stealth, just not as much as they have it atm
adjustment to PU and pledge would be better choice, imo

^ This, what PU needs is to just have it reverted back to what it was pre-patch, 50% stealth increase. There was no reason to buff it to 100%.

It was a weird thing to buff. Did anyone even ask for it?

ozzy.8059:

apharma.3741:

Ensign.2189:

Solori.6025:

I am all for a PU nerf.
But you can’t really say it makes that big of an impact in conquest style game modes.
There are much better traits for that.
You don’t really see PU outside of hotjoin and wvw

PU has a pretty big impact in conquest – sure, it’s not as vital as Dom or Dueling for direct combat power, but stealthing while rotating, which forces opponents out of position (because whichever way they choose, you choose the other to make their choice wrong) is a really powerful tool for winning matches. Plus, it makes it much easier to engage out of stealth with those melee range bursts.

Now, in WvW it’s a legitimately overpowered trait – and the combination with Chronomancer is downright abusive. Until that drops though I wouldn’t say its power in conquest alone warrants some sort of emergency nerf.

The Pledge bug is a much bigger deal for conquest – 1.5s per tick instead of 1.5% per tick is kind of a big difference.

To be honest if anyone visits the Mesmer forums you’ll see a lot of people whining about PU and a lot of mesmer players showing, with maths, that the problem in WvW is mostly down to the torch trait the pledge.

Another thing people forget to mention when they talk about PU is mesmer lost all clone death traits which has a 2 fold effect.

1. There’s no punishment for killing clones.
2. Mesmers used to be able to disengage (certainly in WvW) better because the opponent would be crippled for a fair amount of time without cleanses.

When you factor that in the PU buff isn’t so bad and the boons aren’t exactly reliable, it’s luck if you get aegis.

i can go nuts on clones all day, the mesmer can produce them faster then you can kill them and you are doing exactly what the mesmer wants you to do, stand next to the clones so it can shatter them. here is an example

i can put down 2 wells and the clones are still standing after this.. with more being pumped out at the same time, it takes a full life transfer to take out the clones, (as if the mesmer is going to let that happen) this is on my tanky build with 2k power 3k defence and bloodlust with 45% crit chance.

if i go full zerker may as well just afk its a free feed for the mesmer

heh, thats ironic. I found my necro to be one of the hard counters to mesmers. Bunker / Lifesteal / condi transfer. I feed on clones. They heal me. not many necros play this though, when i do play my mes its a rare chance I run into 1 of them, when I do, I just avoid it for the rest of the game and go after the zerkers instead.

zerkers anything = free kill

that simple. rest of builds, depends. some stance warriors eat me up real quick while otehrs migth as well jsut stand there and afk and let me kill them. rangers for the most part are push overs because i love reflects and feedback, but once in a while i do get owned by melee rangers. necros also have another 2 builds that just take me forever to bring down, like eles, so much so that i usually die in a 2v1 or 3v1 cause help for them arrives.

vs engis, my mez is a toss up, depends on build and available CDs, some go down very quick while others can be a pain. burn FT engis in particular when they sweep, FT is a melee weapon so unaffected by my reflects and stealth doesnt mean that much due to area coverage, + they tag me to put burn stacks on me, which hurt.

Elementalist doesn’t need to be nerfed. Celestial amulet needs to be removed.

To the people that can’t for the life of them figure out why PU was buffed:

apharma.3741:

To be honest if anyone visits the Mesmer forums you’ll see a lot of people whining about PU and a lot of mesmer players showing, with maths, that the problem in WvW is mostly down to the torch trait the pledge.

Another thing people forget to mention when they talk about PU is mesmer lost all clone death traits which has a 2 fold effect.

1. There’s no punishment for killing clones.
2. Mesmers used to be able to disengage (certainly in WvW) better because the opponent would be crippled for a fair amount of time without cleanses.

When you factor that in the PU buff isn’t so bad and the boons aren’t exactly reliable, it’s luck if you get aegis.

Old PU was taken by one and only one build and that was simply because it was the easiest to reach defensive trait (most condition players wanted the minor GM for toughness to condition damage). PU pre patch AND pre nerf was also used in power builds, it wasn’t that common but it was certainly viable as you effectively gave up IP and IE for the extra survivability from the almost guaranteed aegis, protection and regen.

Post nerf it wasn’t viable due to the boons being too random and the stealth wasn’t long enough to make a difference.

nomdeplums.5780:

Elementalist doesn’t need to be nerfed. Celestial amulet needs to be removed.

This may actually be the best option: remove celestial amulet.

Ele is basically designed as a class that can do pretty much everything. However, the celestial amulet boosted it to the level that ele can do everything too well.

It would be better to have everyone in sPvP to fit into a role that does limited amount of things. Then you focus on rotation and team coordination to achieve the maximum synergy. Builds like cele DD ele really trivializes rotation and coordination. Being able to do everything well makes the whole game mode feel shallow.

Entenkommando.5208:

Mesmers would be much easier to fight with old pu.

With the old version you needed to hurry to get behind the enemy after stealthing – which made shatters quite predictable and easy to dodge.
So instead you needed good gameplay and this also justified the high damage.

After the buff you can stealth, run behind your enemy, drink a cup of tea, remember the first 10000 digits of pi and eventually do your incredible shatter out of nowhere paired with an instant stun.

LOL! I actually had an image of this Asura Mesmer all stealthed just sitting behind a point sipping on a cup of tea while all this chaos ensues around him. Then setting the cup down gently and stretching a bit to warm up before he attacks.

Exciton.8942:

nomdeplums.5780:

Elementalist doesn’t need to be nerfed. Celestial amulet needs to be removed.

This may actually be the best option: remove celestial amulet.

Ele is basically designed as a class that can do pretty much everything. However, the celestial amulet boosted it to the level that ele can do everything too well.

It would be better to have everyone in sPvP to fit into a role that does limited amount of things. Then you focus on rotation and team coordination to achieve the maximum synergy. Builds like cele DD ele really trivializes rotation and coordination. Being able to do everything well makes the whole game mode feel shallow.

I actually completely agree with this. Celestial amulet dictates a lot of what is strong because of the sheer amount of stats it gives alone. With it gone, people’s builds will be more counter-able because they will have clear weaknesses instead of covering all options.

striker.3704:

Exciton.8942:

nomdeplums.5780:

Elementalist doesn’t need to be nerfed. Celestial amulet needs to be removed.

This may actually be the best option: remove celestial amulet.

Ele is basically designed as a class that can do pretty much everything. However, the celestial amulet boosted it to the level that ele can do everything too well.

It would be better to have everyone in sPvP to fit into a role that does limited amount of things. Then you focus on rotation and team coordination to achieve the maximum synergy. Builds like cele DD ele really trivializes rotation and coordination. Being able to do everything well makes the whole game mode feel shallow.

I actually completely agree with this. Celestial amulet dictates a lot of what is strong because of the sheer amount of stats it gives alone. With it gone, people’s builds will be more counter-able because they will have clear weaknesses instead of covering all options.

There is always a clear weakness and nothing ever cover all options it just depends on how common the counter is. Are boon hate and chill common?

Chokolata.1870:

Actually, the mesmer can spike far harder then the thief, and has more survivability. This is why PU is OTT.

This isn’t true. Pound for pound a thief has better spike damage, a +4 shatter is about equal to a single backstab, but a mes has to make sure each illusion hits the target. Note each illusion separately can be mitigated with dodge, evade, block, CC, conditions etc. So a thief burst is more reliable in getting the full damage.

You are forgetting the passive procs from the trait lines. Also, aside from the shatter spike the Mesmer has sustained damage and more utility.

Chokolata.1870:

You are forgetting the passive procs from the trait lines. Also, aside from the shatter spike the Mesmer has sustained damage and more utility.

Sustained damage? Really? Mesmer sustained damage is usually from phantasms which have no place being alive for longer than 1 hit unless you’re ignoring it.

Mesmer auto also does half the damage of most other classes, funny how people forget that. So where’s this sustained damage over thief?

Also, what passive procs from traits?
I see generally the same number of passive gain X when enemy is Y or gain X when Y happens as many other classes including thief.

Chokolata.1870:

You are forgetting the passive procs from the trait lines. Also, aside from the shatter spike the Mesmer has sustained damage and more utility.

I was taking traits into consideration. How can you not? The point is a thief doesn’t have to worry about his single attack being divided into 4 smaller attacks, or put up 3 illusions in the first place. Nor can you proc air and fire sigils on shatters. As for sustain, an evade thief has on demand dodges, which no other class can boast.

nomdeplums.5780:

Elementalist doesn’t need to be nerfed. Celestial amulet needs to be removed.

I could say that mirror blade didnt need to be nerfed, since Anet already stealth nerfed fire/air sigil. Why shouldn’t Ele get the same treatment to be over-nerf?

Vague Memory.2817:

Chokolata.1870:

You are forgetting the passive procs from the trait lines. Also, aside from the shatter spike the Mesmer has sustained damage and more utility.

I was taking traits into consideration. How can you not? The point is a thief doesn’t have to worry about his single attack being divided into 4 smaller attacks, or put up 3 illusions in the first place. Nor can you proc air and fire sigils on shatters. As for sustain, an evade thief has on demand dodges, which no other class can boast.

- nah thief just has to worry to not get interrupted while gaining stealth, not get killed while trying to get behind the target and actually land backstab before stealth runs out… oh and let’s completely ignore the fact that shatter is aoe and bs is single target dmg

- you CAN proc air/fire with shatter, please don’t lie for the sake of argument

- thief with evades doesn’t have backstab…. unless they run sd/dp which is rather worthless to his team due to lack of sb support.. not to mention they would have to run acro trait line thus either dropping SA or DA which are pretty mucn mandatory atm
also evade is not sustain, you can avoid some dmg yes, but evade doesn’t give any dmg mitigation nor heals