Guild Wars 2

Why don’t you actually give us some lifeforce at the beginning of the game? If you want us to use deathshroud for some survivability give us the ability to actually USE it to survive.

It’s like a guardian saying “Yeah I’m going to bunker this point, but I’m not going to use stability until I’ve died and come back because I’ll have used enough of my skills by that time to use it”.

For the love of kittens could we get some lifeforce at the start of matches?

No one accumulates meter in the beginning of the game…that’s like saying a warrior should start with full 3 bars adrenaline…

Maybe a heal skill that gives 25% life force.

Not really need imo. It’s not like you’re charging in anyways…

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Maybe a heal skill that gives 25% life force.

That was where my thought process was going as well. Give 25% shroud plus an addition % for each condition consumed. Or simply grant full shroud when sacrificing.

I think that’s a really good idea! It would make sense if Necros had every tool in the game, the highest burst potential while playing a lockdown CC spam spec, the hardest to avoid damage, some of the best anti-rezzer & anti-stomper mechanics AND far more survivability.

You can have 50% life force at the start of the game when your class isn’t a broken mess.

butch.8136:

Not really need imo. It’s not like you’re charging in anyways…

That’s mostly because we simply can’t, not because we shouldn’t be able to.

Pandabro.8743:

butch.8136:

Not really need imo. It’s not like you’re charging in anyways…

That’s mostly because we simply can’t, not because we shouldn’t be able to.

That may be true. But they should give it to us in a way that you have to ‘build’ for it and not give it standard to every necro build. Because if you do it like a heal, which is nice for the start it might be imbalanced throughout the game as you just go full DS much quicker. Which wouldn’t be bad if you build your playstyle around it, for like ‘bunkering’.

Atherakhia.4086:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Maybe a heal skill that gives 25% life force.

That was where my thought process was going as well. Give 25% shroud plus an addition % for each condition consumed. Or simply grant full shroud when sacrificing.

Consume Conditions is already pretty much the most powerful heal in the game.

NO.

You should have to CHOOSE between the two. Take the condi eating heal or take the LF generating heal. You can’t have it all.

butch.8136:

Pandabro.8743:

butch.8136:

Not really need imo. It’s not like you’re charging in anyways…

That’s mostly because we simply can’t, not because we shouldn’t be able to.

That may be true. But they should give it to us in a way that you have to ‘build’ for it and not give it standard to every necro build. Because if you do it like a heal, which is nice for the start it might be imbalanced throughout the game as you just go full DS much quicker. Which wouldn’t be bad if you build your playstyle around it, for like ‘bunkering’.

Yeah I’d be fine with that. If it was added to a trait or something where you could get some lifeforce at the beginning of the game. So it’s actually possible to bunker a point at the beginning of the game.

Amaterasu.6280:

No one accumulates meter in the beginning of the game…that’s like saying a warrior should start with full 3 bars adrenaline…

Healing Surge….. Signet of Fury……

Make life force automatically regenerate up to a point when shroud isn’t active. Maybe 25%?

Here are my ideas for this whole concept of necromancers, quite frankly Anets defensive perception for this class is so flawed.

Blood Thirst- Replace Blood is Power (25 in the blood magic trait line)- Player gains benefits in Tiers from the total amount of HP is stolen. 5 second CD between each of the tiers, 10 sec CD after Tier 3 before it resets and starts at Tier 1 again
Tier 1 Steal X amount of HP- Player Gains Vigor
Tier 2 Steal Y amount of HP- Player gains Vigor and 10% Life Force
Tier 3 Steal Z amount of HP- Player gains vigor and Apply two stacks of torment to the last player you stole HP From.

Something along those lings. HP stealing is something that many builds can do and buffing this while giving us surviveability could great help diversify builds. My suggestion is probably bad, but I would love something along those lines.

Here is another. Something in the Spectral trait line. I’m not too sure on what it would replace

Vengeful Shadow- If you take 10% or more of your HP pool as damage, you gain 5% of your life force.

Amaterasu.6280:

No one accumulates meter in the beginning of the game…that’s like saying a warrior should start with full 3 bars adrenaline…

Actually Necro’s do start with deathshoud at the start of game. Kill minion… profit.

Are people REALLY asking for more necro buffs? wtf?

Death shroud is a second life bar. A necro already has 18.something thousand hps with rabid amulet (around 24k with carrion), if you let them have death shroud ready from the start, you would end up with a tanky character with something like a 30k health pool….just no.

For those comparing life force to a warrior’s adrenaline, I can only laugh…adrenaline won’t make the warrior harder to kill or pretty much “immune” to burst

Don’t waste your time Allie. Talk to the people who actually understand the game.

Allie Murdock.8152:

I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.

Well, you do the same with nerfing. So when you expect players to explain in detail why they want something you should do them the same favor and explain why you nerf things into oblivion.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Let’s brainstorm some scenarios if we did this, FOR SCIENCE!

If death shroud = survivability, and we allowed necros to have death shroud from the start, then how could that change how necros play? How would this affect certain maps and the balance of those maps? How would this affect the meta? How would this affect other classes?

Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?

Ultimately, what I’m looking for is the reasoning, and why you feel this would be a positive change for the game. I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.

Because the necromancer lacks other means to mitigate damage. We have no blocks, evades or vigor. None. Everybody else does but us.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigor

Can you explain to us how this is balanced? Right now there is no way for a necromancer to avoid being assist trained and yet we keep getting our survivability nerfed. It makes no sense.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Let’s brainstorm some scenarios if we did this, FOR SCIENCE!

If death shroud = survivability, and we allowed necros to have death shroud from the start, then how could that change how necros play? How would this affect certain maps and the balance of those maps? How would this affect the meta? How would this affect other classes?

Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?

Ultimately, what I’m looking for is the reasoning, and why you feel this would be a positive change for the game. I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.

I think that the reason is quite simple.
Death Shroud is, by far, the most prominent source of survivability of Necromancer, while adrenaline is used only for offensive purposes (I don’t know what you meant with giving initiative on thieves, since they start the match with full initiative anyway :P).

What I’m trying to say is that to build up Life Force you are supposed to survive but, if you want to survive, you’d probably want to use Death Shroud, which is based on Life Force, which is what you want to survive for.
It is a vicious circle.

About adrenaline it is different. Adrenaline is solely for offensive purposes. You hit your enemy, you build adrenaline and then unleakittens destructive power :P

Just want to point out that you can already start a match with 30% life force. Before the 10-second countdown, switch 2 of your slot skills to Bone Fiend and Shadow Fiend, and switch your elite to Flesh Golem. After the countdown starts, summon each of the minions, then change the slots back to what you really want. When each minion is despawned (as a result of you switching out of those skills), you’ll get 10% life force, more if you have Gluttony, and the skills you switch to won’t be on cooldown.

If you’re worried about not being coordinated to switch all the slots back in time you can do it with just 2 of the slots. Doing all 4 slots might be possible but I haven’t tried it.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Batmang.5421, I think it is in everyones best interest that all players consider the implications of what they are saying when they say it, regardless of their status in the scene.

mordran.4750, I appreciate your feedback, and understand your feelings. While I’m not entirely happy with the sense of entitlement I’m getting from your post (I could be completely wrong about that – internet makes it hard to read people, so sorry if I am), I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. If you have any specific ideas as to how you would like to see this, I’m all ears. I will say that information on design philosophy with patch notes is something we have discussed internally, and something we do want to do eventually.

Thanks for the feedback!

http://guildwars.com/gameplay/developer_updates/
A similar format. While you don’t need to speak on all changes.
I think you guys are aware of some that will certainly be better off when explained. Especially when there is no forewarning in an sotg.

Shar.3402:

Death shroud is a second life bar. A necro already has 18.something thousand hps with rabid amulet (around 24k with carrion), if you let them have death shroud ready from the start, you would end up with a tanky character with something like a 30k health pool….just no.

For those comparing life force to a warrior’s adrenaline, I can only laugh…adrenaline won’t make the warrior harder to kill or pretty much “immune” to burst

It’s not just a second healthpool though, there are many builds which revolve around using it for damage as well. Starting out with it basically means starting out with less than your full damage potential and having to gain it. What is so great about any of the DPS shroud builds that would make them worth that? Absolutely nothing, it’s a loss with no potential gain.

Yeah wanting the burst necros have and free deathshroud to start off a fear chain with is pretty /facepalm to be honest

I’ll nibble.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?

Thieves have initiative. Warriors don’t need adrenaline to survive an assist train.

Every profession has 2 dodges at the beginning. Other professions readily (i.e. it’s basically given to them without making undo sacrifices) have means to access one or more of: vigor, protection, invisibility, invulnerability, rapid/instantaneous movement. Necromancers have… Death Shroud, which cannot be accessed until they’ve built up enough Life Force.

The replies from Allie here are amazing (something I haven’t seen on the forums for a long time).

You guys have either REALLY cheesed her off or we are seeing a great new precedence of give and take from the devs.

Allie Murdock.8152:

sorrow.2364:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Let’s brainstorm some scenarios if we did this, FOR SCIENCE!

If death shroud = survivability, and we allowed necros to have death shroud from the start, then how could that change how necros play? How would this affect certain maps and the balance of those maps? How would this affect the meta? How would this affect other classes?

Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?

Ultimately, what I’m looking for is the reasoning, and why you feel this would be a positive change for the game. I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.

I think that the reason is quite simple.
Death Shroud is, by far, the most prominent source of survivability of Necromancer, while adrenaline is used only for offensive purposes (I don’t know what you meant with giving initiative on thieves, since they start the match with full initiative anyway :P).

What I’m trying to say is that to build up Life Force you are supposed to survive but, if you want to survive, you’d probably want to use Death Shroud, which is based on Life Force, which is what you want to survive for.
It is a vicious circle.

About adrenaline it is different. Adrenaline is solely for offensive purposes. You hit your enemy, you build adrenaline and then unleakittens destructive power :P

Sure sure, but if we gave you life force at the beginning of the match, how would that help you when you’re in battle? What I mean is, by the time you get into combat, have used a fear or two, have used some life steal, other life-force producing skills, etc., do you not have the life force you need to try and survive? Wouldn’t that mean you’d actually have a surplus of life force?

Don’t forget that you’re also doing tons of damage while you’re casting all those abilities. Is it really balanced to give you survivability AND glass-cannon damage all at once?

Allie,

Against a good team right in the beginning, we like to stealth ontop of their necro (or mesmer) and just 100-0 them before they can react. This is the scenario they are worried about. You’re inferring combat takes place in a slow fashion in the beginning. People get gibbed pretty quick in the first fight.

lettucemode.3789:

Just want to point out that you can already start a match with 30% life force. Before the 10-second countdown, switch 2 of your slot skills to Bone Fiend and Shadow Fiend, and switch your elite to Flesh Golem. After the countdown starts, summon each of the minions, then change the slots back to what you really want. When each minion is despawned (as a result of you switching out of those skills), you’ll get 10% life force, more if you have Gluttony, and the skills you switch to won’t be on cooldown.

If you’re worried about not being coordinated to switch all the slots back in time you can do it with just 2 of the slots. Doing all 4 slots might be possible but I haven’t tried it.

What he said! Necros do NOT need to start PvP matches with full Life Force, they can already generate 30% if they know what they are doing.

There’s no reason to just give Necros a full/half/any LF at the start of the match. That’s just encouraging the mindless play that everyone has been complaining of lately.

The issue resides in the Necros dependence on Life Force and Death Shroud for survivability and their inablity to sustain themselves without it. This is why Necros make horrible bunkers. They essentially have to die popping all their CDs for gaining LF before they can come back and actually be capable of fighting.

Tbh, Necros don’t need to be sitting in DS more often and for longer, they need ways to survive without it.

My suggestion: accelerate the LF gains and expenses by 2 or 3 times it’s current rate. This would make it a utility based mechanic rather than both utility and the sole source of survivability. Then you can start moving the survivability/mobility aspects of the class into the trait lines and utility skills and allow the class to be more than a team supported neutron bomb.

Allie Murdock.8152:

sorrow.2364:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Let’s brainstorm some scenarios if we did this, FOR SCIENCE!

If death shroud = survivability, and we allowed necros to have death shroud from the start, then how could that change how necros play? How would this affect certain maps and the balance of those maps? How would this affect the meta? How would this affect other classes?

Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?

Ultimately, what I’m looking for is the reasoning, and why you feel this would be a positive change for the game. I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.

I think that the reason is quite simple.
Death Shroud is, by far, the most prominent source of survivability of Necromancer, while adrenaline is used only for offensive purposes (I don’t know what you meant with giving initiative on thieves, since they start the match with full initiative anyway :P).

What I’m trying to say is that to build up Life Force you are supposed to survive but, if you want to survive, you’d probably want to use Death Shroud, which is based on Life Force, which is what you want to survive for.
It is a vicious circle.

About adrenaline it is different. Adrenaline is solely for offensive purposes. You hit your enemy, you build adrenaline and then unleakittens destructive power :P

Sure sure, but if we gave you life force at the beginning of the match, how would that help you when you’re in battle? What I mean is, by the time you get into combat, have used a fear or two, have used some life steal, other life-force producing skills, etc., do you not have the life force you need to try and survive? Wouldn’t that mean you’d actually have a surplus of life force?

Don’t forget that you’re also doing tons of damage while you’re casting all those abilities. Is it really balanced to give you survivability AND glass-cannon damage all at once?

Instead of going down this path, let me try a different approach.

Allie, did you play, or are you familiar with WoW arenas? If so, are you familiar with Warlocks, especially in the Season 3/4 timeframe?

Quick recap: Warlocks were a heavy condition class that could apply a lot of condition pressure to multiple opposing team members. They had a pet (Voidwalker) that would share the damage the warlock received, effectively acting a little like a second health bar (it also mitigated some damage). However, the warlock had no means of escape. It could not disengage or run away, and relied on his/her teammates to peel opponents off him/her in order to not get killed.

Do you see the parallel here?

While it was a powerful class, it had massive drawbacks in arenas in Season 3/4 (when I last played a lock) because opposing teams knew that, once they were able to establish an “/assist” train on the warlock, it was a matter of time before the warlock dropped. Opposing teams would burn through the pets first, then burn through the warlock. There was no real counter to this, except to run away.
So teams with warlocks basically played this meta-game where the lock had to play hide and go seek to prevent from getting walloped. Naturally this also had the effect of castrating the efficacy of the class. Ultimately it was very limiting to the class overall.

WoW later fixed warlocks by giving them “Demonic Circle/Teleport” – a ranged teleport that was also a stun breaker.

From what I can see. the situation is here is very, very similar in nature. However, here you have professions that have access to a number of knockdowns/knockbacks/stuns and have simultaneous access to stability (i.e. no peeling!). Furthermore, in the warlock case, they effectively walked into battle with a full Life force meter (VW), and still got burned down.

I think that it’s also important that keep in mind that Death Shroud is really the only readily available means of defense a Necromancer has; and it really is far inferior to other means of mitigation/disengages such as dodges, teleports, mist form and stealth.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Defektive.7283:

Allie,

Against a good team right in the beginning, we like to stealth ontop of their necro (or mesmer) and just 100-0 them before they can react. This is the scenario they are worried about. You’re inferring combat takes place in a slow fashion in the beginning. People get gibbed pretty quick in the first fight.

Sure, but then we’re just talking about opportunity cost. You’re dedicating a player to finding a necro to take them out, which pulls that player out of the game. Counter play is something that cannot, and should not, be prevented in the game. One could argue that it’s the whole point of competitive PvP, or what sets competitive PvP apart. You analyze, and adjust to the other teams strategies. Am I wrong?

Also, I was not inferring that combat takes place in a slow fashion. Just fyi

No no no, we’re not dedicating one player to killing a necro. We’re stealthing with 3-4 people, with 10+ seconds of stealth. Targeting the necro. Walking past their team, and gibbing him in under a second.

This is fairly common play in tPvP and is why Necros are freaking out about their survivability in the early game.

If their team comes to res, they have to sacrifice an instant res immediately, or take a ton of cleave damage early in the game.

This isn’t counter play, it’s just the way high level tPvP is if you have a thief on the enemy team.

The only real way to counter this right now is to have your squishiest players sit very far back (which is a bonus for the offensive team anyway to gib your frontline) or for you to also run stealth and see which team pops out of stealth first.

Defektive, maybe you can post a link to a video showing the developers just how crippling this is.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Defektive, maybe you can post a link to a video showing the developers just how crippling this is.

I have a few from last night against a number of teams, I’ll do some clips when I get home.

I think that if stealthed didn’t work the way it did, Necros wouldn’t fear for their lives so much this early in the game. Thus the conversation about their ability to prevent damage early on wouldn’t be warranted.

Defektive.7283:

Allie,

Against a good team right in the beginning, we like to stealth ontop of their necro (or mesmer) and just 100-0 them before they can react. This is the scenario they are worried about. You’re inferring combat takes place in a slow fashion in the beginning. People get gibbed pretty quick in the first fight.

This is the main reason. It’s highly possible that giving every necro some lifeforce at the beginning of the game is too much but if you ever expect a necro to be able to do any sort of bunkering they need some access to lifeforce at the beginning of the game.

There is that bug with minions but it’s really just exploiting.

The main reason we haven’t seen any bunker necros is the fact that we cannot even dream of bunkering a point without at least half our lifeforce pool. So not only do we not have much access to stability or protection but our main way of surviving is completely kitten until halfway through the first major skirmish.

I’m not saying I want dps necros to be more survivable. I simply want the option to play a meat shield if I want to.

Defektive.7283:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Defektive.7283:

Allie,

Against a good team right in the beginning, we like to stealth ontop of their necro (or mesmer) and just 100-0 them before they can react. This is the scenario they are worried about. You’re inferring combat takes place in a slow fashion in the beginning. People get gibbed pretty quick in the first fight.

Sure, but then we’re just talking about opportunity cost. You’re dedicating a player to finding a necro to take them out, which pulls that player out of the game. Counter play is something that cannot, and should not, be prevented in the game. One could argue that it’s the whole point of competitive PvP, or what sets competitive PvP apart. You analyze, and adjust to the other teams strategies. Am I wrong?

Also, I was not inferring that combat takes place in a slow fashion. Just fyi

No no no, we’re not dedicating one player to killing a necro. We’re stealthing with 3-4 people, with 10+ seconds of stealth. Targeting the necro. Walking past their team, and gibbing him in under a second.

This is fairly common play in tPvP and is why Necros are freaking out about their survivability in the early game.

If their team comes to res, they have to sacrifice an instant res immediately, or take a ton of cleave damage early in the game.

This isn’t counter play, it’s just the way high level tPvP is if you have a thief on the enemy team.

This forum posting reveled an interesting problem I think many Devs face when balancing MMOs. Allies disconnect in knowlege between how the gamers are playing and how they think we are playing. Like stated earlier Devs will hop in game a few hours when they can to do some testing ect. but they are often unaware of the current meta because they really arnt playing the game as much as other players (also looking at forums, theorycrafting, streaming).

The example here showing that a Dev didnt even consider a whole team stealthing and killing a necro right off the bat so why would they consider that in balancing. Can we really expect the Devs to first hand experience real competitive Tpvp?

Allie Murdock.8152:

Batmang.5421, I think it is in everyones best interest that all players consider the implications of what they are saying when they say it, regardless of their status in the scene.

TRUTH…JUSTICE!

lettucemode.3789:

Just want to point out that you can already start a match with 30% life force. Before the 10-second countdown, switch 2 of your slot skills to Bone Fiend and Shadow Fiend, and switch your elite to Flesh Golem. After the countdown starts, summon each of the minions, then change the slots back to what you really want. When each minion is despawned (as a result of you switching out of those skills), you’ll get 10% life force, more if you have Gluttony, and the skills you switch to won’t be on cooldown.

If you’re worried about not being coordinated to switch all the slots back in time you can do it with just 2 of the slots. Doing all 4 slots might be possible but I haven’t tried it.

Yes, but that’s really not the intended use. Now that you’ve told the developer about it, I’m sure they’ll put it at the top of their priority list of things to fix for the next patch, thus further reducing Necromancer survivability.

Defektive.7283:

Allie Murdock.8152:

sorrow.2364:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Let’s brainstorm some scenarios if we did this, FOR SCIENCE!

If death shroud = survivability, and we allowed necros to have death shroud from the start, then how could that change how necros play? How would this affect certain maps and the balance of those maps? How would this affect the meta? How would this affect other classes?

Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?

Ultimately, what I’m looking for is the reasoning, and why you feel this would be a positive change for the game. I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.

I think that the reason is quite simple.
Death Shroud is, by far, the most prominent source of survivability of Necromancer, while adrenaline is used only for offensive purposes (I don’t know what you meant with giving initiative on thieves, since they start the match with full initiative anyway :P).

What I’m trying to say is that to build up Life Force you are supposed to survive but, if you want to survive, you’d probably want to use Death Shroud, which is based on Life Force, which is what you want to survive for.
It is a vicious circle.

About adrenaline it is different. Adrenaline is solely for offensive purposes. You hit your enemy, you build adrenaline and then unleakittens destructive power :P

Sure sure, but if we gave you life force at the beginning of the match, how would that help you when you’re in battle? What I mean is, by the time you get into combat, have used a fear or two, have used some life steal, other life-force producing skills, etc., do you not have the life force you need to try and survive? Wouldn’t that mean you’d actually have a surplus of life force?

Don’t forget that you’re also doing tons of damage while you’re casting all those abilities. Is it really balanced to give you survivability AND glass-cannon damage all at once?

Allie,

Against a good team right in the beginning, we like to stealth ontop of their necro (or mesmer) and just 100-0 them before they can react. This is the scenario they are worried about. You’re inferring combat takes place in a slow fashion in the beginning. People get gibbed pretty quick in the first fight.

That has more to do with stealth openings then the progressive fashion of life force gain.

not sure if still working, but sumon bone and shadow fiends when the 10 sec countdown start, then change those skill for your desired skills and gain LF in the process. You have to be fast though

Allie Murdock.8152:

Don’t forget that you’re also doing tons of damage while you’re casting all those abilities. Is it really balanced to give you survivability AND glass-cannon damage all at once?

That depends on perspective. Do you believe glass cannon thieves with stealth and an instant 1200 meter teleport are balanced? Do you believe that scepter/dagger elementalists with the Mist Form Cantrip are balanced?

Those are prime examples of having glass cannon damage while being able to completely disengage from a fight.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Yes, but that’s really not the intended use. Now that you’ve told the developer about it, I’m sure they’ll put it at the top of their priority list of things to fix for the next patch, thus further reducing Necromancer survivability.

I don’t think that will happen. They knew about this back when they killed gaining swiftness for free by doing the switch trick with Spectral Walk. Since then it’s been months and they haven’t removed it; in addition, necros who stream have been doing it before every match for longer than they were doing the walk-swiftness thing.

At this point, either they don’t care, or the fix is rather complex and thus gets low priority.

I do not think that necros should have a 100% LF at the start of the match, but since the dev asked so “nicely” I can give a few reason that most but not all were mentioned:

Necros lack: block, evade, vigor, stability, invulnerability that other classes can get just from weapon skills and utilities.
Classes that can use their class mechanic from the start of the match – elementalist, ranger, thief, guardian, engy;
Classes that cannot use it from the start and need some preparation: mesmer, warrior, necromancer. Mesmer needs to have a clone or phantasm that is easily obtained from weapon skills or utilities, warrior needs to use healing skill or signet for 100% adrenaline and necromancer has to start summoning minions, swapping utilities just before the beginning to get that minimal amount of LF to get to use your class mechanic. Mesmer can use his class mechanic for defense, offence and CC, warrior uses his mostly for offense or CC, while with IRE trait can cleanse conditions, necro also can use his mechanic for defence and CC.

So it looks pretty neat and equal, but the problem starts when you see what classes are being focused FIRST. All the other classes even mentioned in second tier (mesmer, warrior) have other easily accessible abilities to mitigate incoming damage: evades, stealth, block, etc. Necromancer does not, so he is the first target of any group to be bursted down. And his F1 skill now does not even work in this situation with the preparation, because the amount of LF gathered is too small to take a hit.

Also about this – “Don’t forget that you’re also doing tons of damage while you’re casting all those abilities. Is it really balanced to give you survivability AND glass-cannon damage all at once?” Well first of all not every necro is build for being a glass cannon. Secondly other classes still have more survivability while being glass cannons through mobility, evades and stealth – for example shatter mesmer can mitigate quite a lot of damage if played decently.

So as you can see necromancer is the one class that does not compare to others from the class mechanic standpoint.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Ok Defektive.7283, then answer me this. Since it is common in tPvP, you’re suggesting that the opportunity cost of focusing on the necro, as opposed to someone else on the team, or focusing on capping a point/other secondary objective is not great enough?

If so, then let me ask you this: if there was a different class that felt more threatening, would you perform the same maneuver on them instead?

What I’m seeing is – you’re establishing a threat according to your team comp, and focusing on that threat. If a necro didn’t threaten your team because of the comp that you’re running, would you still do that?

How is it not counter, when there is a specific condition that is necessary for the success of that strategy? Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re saying, but it sounds a lot like counter play to me.

You are incorrectly inferring that targets are placed based on their threat level.

Targets are generally chosen based on squishyness / ability to escape the damage train.

In the early game, capturing a point isn’t important, winning the first team fight is.
If you can eliminate key players, or even 1 player quickly enough, you have a fight in your advantage.

Necromancers are PRIME targets, no matter their damage because of their complete inability to mitigate pressure or to tank it. Warriors unfortunately suffer from the same fate, we have no Z axis teleport or invulnerability unless we pop all of our utilities.

Early game:
1) Eliminate the easiest target from stealth.
2) Put the team fight in your advantage early on.
3) Switch targets to the most threatening in order to apply pressure and reduce their damage output.
4) Wipe out the remaining players
5) Capture the point.

Who cares if you’re down 20-30 points in the early game if you can secure a 2 cap immediately after and hold it for 2-5 minutes.

There is no opportunity cost to doing this, only an advantage to gain if your team understands how to use stealth mechanics correctly and can point out a target who can’t avoid your damage.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Let’s brainstorm some scenarios if we did this, FOR SCIENCE!

If death shroud = survivability, and we allowed necros to have death shroud from the start, then how could that change how necros play? How would this affect certain maps and the balance of those maps? How would this affect the meta? How would this affect other classes?

Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?

Ultimately, what I’m looking for is the reasoning, and why you feel this would be a positive change for the game. I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.

Because the necromancer lacks other means to mitigate damage. We have no blocks, evades or vigor. None. Everybody else does but us.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigor

Can you explain to us how this is balanced? Right now there is no way for a necromancer to avoid being assist trained and yet we keep getting our survivability nerfed. It makes no sense.

I understand those who enjoy the necromancer experience want to get the most from it. However there is some obvious things that are being missed here. The necromancer by default gets a very viable amount of HP pool to start. Numerous build types relating to thiefs, elementalists and guardians can run 10,500-13,000 HP. They may have blocks/evades at their disposal..but the necessity for this is because their HP pool require them to right from the start of a match when being assigned the lowest Health pools in the game. Currently the necromancer is in (Arguably) The best position to date in terms of what it can bring to a duel or node capture. Their amount of chill, Crowd control, forgiving targeting and weakness is more than enough to provide them adequate survival time to generate life force.