So you want us to use Deathshroud?
Ok Defektive.7283, then answer me this. Since it is common in tPvP, you’re suggesting that the opportunity cost of focusing on the necro, as opposed to someone else on the team, or focusing on capping a point/other secondary objective is not great enough?
If so, then let me ask you this: if there was a different class that felt more threatening, would you perform the same maneuver on them instead?
What I’m seeing is – you’re establishing a threat according to your team comp, and focusing on that threat. If a necro didn’t threaten your team because of the comp that you’re running, would you still do that?
How is it not counter, when there is a specific condition that is necessary for the success of that strategy? Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re saying, but it sounds a lot like counter play to me.
You are incorrectly inferring that targets are placed based on their threat level.
Targets are generally chosen based on squishyness / ability to escape the damage train.
In the early game, capturing a point isn’t important, winning the first team fight is.
If you can eliminate key players, or even 1 player quickly enough, you have a fight in your advantage.Necromancers are PRIME targets, no matter their damage because of their complete inability to mitigate pressure or to tank it. Warriors unfortunately suffer from the same fate, we have no Z axis teleport or invulnerability unless we pop all of our utilities.
Early game:
1) Eliminate the easiest target from stealth.
2) Put the team fight in your advantage early on.
3) Switch targets to the most threatening in order to apply pressure and reduce their damage output.
4) Wipe out the remaining players
5) Capture the point.Who cares if you’re down 20-30 points in the early game if you can secure a 2 cap immediately after and hold it for 2-5 minutes.
There is no opportunity cost to doing this, only an advantage to gain if your team understands how to use stealth mechanics correctly and can point out a target who can’t avoid your damage.
I see! Thanks for explaining this with such detail!
With all that you’ve said (btw, really appreciate your objective feedback), do you agree that necros need something else to boost their survivability?
Allie do you actually play this game or do you just theory craft?
I’m trying to understand, as well as help others understand, what you are all saying.
This forum posting reveled an interesting problem I think many Devs face when balancing MMOs. Allies disconnect in knowlege between how the gamers are playing and how they think we are playing. Like stated earlier Devs will hop in game a few hours when they can to do some testing ect. but they are often unaware of the current meta because they really arnt playing the game as much as other players (also looking at forums, theorycrafting, streaming).
The example here showing that a Dev didnt even consider a whole team stealthing and killing a necro right off the bat so why would they consider that in balancing. Can we really expect the Devs to first hand experience real competitive Tpvp?
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Let’s not get carried away here. While I do have the fancy ArenaNet emblem, that does not mean that I implement or design or balance the game. I am here trying to get a full understanding of what you are all saying, so that I can relay it all to the people who know this stuff better than I do. Don’t kill the messenger!
I deleted my post. I was very rude and immature. Didn’t mean to shoot the messenger. Forgive me.
Ok Defektive.7283, then answer me this. Since it is common in tPvP, you’re suggesting that the opportunity cost of focusing on the necro, as opposed to someone else on the team, or focusing on capping a point/other secondary objective is not great enough?
If so, then let me ask you this: if there was a different class that felt more threatening, would you perform the same maneuver on them instead?
What I’m seeing is – you’re establishing a threat according to your team comp, and focusing on that threat. If a necro didn’t threaten your team because of the comp that you’re running, would you still do that?
How is it not counter, when there is a specific condition that is necessary for the success of that strategy? Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re saying, but it sounds a lot like counter play to me.
If it’s counter play, then how do you counter the counter play? You can’t unstealth a team. You cannot peel an invisible team, and if they have stability, you can’t peel them anyway. So the only viable options I am seeing are: a) send the necro somewhere else, thus introducing a numbers disadvantage, b) don’t bring a necro and bring a different profession. We’ve already established that Necromancers need a support group to keep them alive, so option “a” doesn’t seem really very viable.
Flesh Wurm would be a nice counter if it didn’t have the problems of being killable and having LOS issues.
I think counter play is a great idea, but there’s an implied understanding that the counter play is bi-directional. When a ‘counter’ itself cannot be countered, is that not imbalance?
Great points! Thanks for the feedback!
1.Why on earth they nerf’d DS?
2.The possobilitys to get life forces are almost the same.
It is like forcing players to play one build and thats the wrong way to do.
I dont like spectral grasp/axe/minion, but this is one of the best way to fill life force, which is needed to survave and/or deal dmg(of cource there is dagger, but without any defence skills it makes less sens).
I am tring really hard to understand thous changes, but it just seems like forcing all (most)necros run one build and it is exactly what we had las month.
Ok Defektive.7283, then answer me this. Since it is common in tPvP, you’re suggesting that the opportunity cost of focusing on the necro, as opposed to someone else on the team, or focusing on capping a point/other secondary objective is not great enough?
If so, then let me ask you this: if there was a different class that felt more threatening, would you perform the same maneuver on them instead?
What I’m seeing is – you’re establishing a threat according to your team comp, and focusing on that threat. If a necro didn’t threaten your team because of the comp that you’re running, would you still do that?
How is it not counter, when there is a specific condition that is necessary for the success of that strategy? Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re saying, but it sounds a lot like counter play to me.
You are incorrectly inferring that targets are placed based on their threat level.
Targets are generally chosen based on squishyness / ability to escape the damage train.
In the early game, capturing a point isn’t important, winning the first team fight is.
If you can eliminate key players, or even 1 player quickly enough, you have a fight in your advantage.Necromancers are PRIME targets, no matter their damage because of their complete inability to mitigate pressure or to tank it. Warriors unfortunately suffer from the same fate, we have no Z axis teleport or invulnerability unless we pop all of our utilities.
Early game:
1) Eliminate the easiest target from stealth.
2) Put the team fight in your advantage early on.
3) Switch targets to the most threatening in order to apply pressure and reduce their damage output.
4) Wipe out the remaining players
5) Capture the point.Who cares if you’re down 20-30 points in the early game if you can secure a 2 cap immediately after and hold it for 2-5 minutes.
There is no opportunity cost to doing this, only an advantage to gain if your team understands how to use stealth mechanics correctly and can point out a target who can’t avoid your damage.
I see! Thanks for explaining this with such detail!
With all that you’ve said (btw, really appreciate your objective feedback), do you agree that necros need something else to boost their survivability?
That’s a situation that’s not unique to necros and has more to do with stealth openers than necro survivability. Please note, I’m not saying necros don’t need a disengage mechanic.
give necros the ability to see stealthed ppl in some way.
In my own experience, knowing the enemy teams Necromancer has no or very little (if you manage to pull off the buggy pet swapping before your skills are locked out) Lifeforce makes them the primary target at the start of the fight.
Whilst they have no access to there class skills you can take full advantage of yours (attunement swapping, virtues, pets, gadgets, easy-access clones, one-heal full adrenaline and of course initiative being regened faster then it can be spammed).
Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?.
Correct me if im wrong but don’t thieves start out with full initiative?
Giving some kind of life-force pool to Necromancers would be giving them access to there unique mechanic which pretty much every other class has full access to at the start, and its not like its an accident we start off at 0% LF, any LF you have built is removed at the 10 second countdown.
Commander Ascii :: Tempest Wolves [TW] :: Sanctum of Rall :: Best Necromancer NA
The best feedback I could give right now would be to look at a very similar situation that happened with WoW arenas in Season 3/4 with warlocks (I think Season 2 had this problem too, but my brain is too old now). If someone on the dev team played WoW back then and you mention it, I’m certain they’ll have a V-8 moment on the spot.
(edited by Thedenofsin.7340)
Stealth openers are going to gib anybody, not just necros.
That’s a situation that’s not unique to necros and has more to do with stealth openers than necro survivability. Please note, I’m not saying necros don’t need a disengage mechanic.
If we peel back the onion, I’d argue the issue has more to do with the fact that stealth has no counter play.
Imagine if warriors were able to unstealth or tag players with the “Revealed” debuff – how valuable would warriors become!
Stealth openers are going to gib anybody, not just necros.
Untrue. Mesmers can go invisible/teleport. Elementalists can go mist form or RTL. Thieves just vanish. Elementalists can Elixir. Rangers can stealth now. Guardians are.. well guardians.
Unbelievable.
Finally, an ANet rep having a discussion about the Necro’s needs, and they’ve having it with players who don’t even main a Necro, in a forum where most dedicated Necros won’t even be looking…
Stealth openers? This is what is crippling Necro survivability? Really???? It couldn’t be that a Necro’s entire survivability is tied to a slow accrue/slow expend mechanic that doesn’t keep up with the pace of pvp combat? It couldn’t be compounded the fact that their complete inability to disengage a fight obliges them to stay and fight any time someone chooses to engage them regardless of whether it is tactically or situationally beneficial for the Necro or their team.
Just carry on though, I’m sure Necros will thank you for this later…
I’ve stayed at this party entirely too long
Don’t forget that you’re also doing tons of damage while you’re casting all those abilities. Is it really balanced to give you survivability AND glass-cannon damage all at once?
That depends on perspective. Do you believe glass cannon thieves with stealth and an instant 1200 meter teleport are balanced? Do you believe that scepter/dagger elementalists with the Mist Form Cantrip are balanced?
Those are prime examples of having glass cannon damage while being able to completely disengage from a fight.
Mist form has a SEVENTY-FIVE seconds cooldown, disables ALL your skills. It also takes up an utility slot.
Thieves teleport has an initiative COST and removes the thief from the fight (well, kinda)
Death shroud has a 10 seconds cooldown, allows the necro to: damage, teleport, fear, aoe damage, torment+immobilize, and depending on traits it can apply retaliation/weakness/whatever
don’t compare apples to oranges or melons.
BTW, I see a lot of complains about “necro getting gibbed from stealth openers”, but that’s a problem for every class. I’ve seen guardians getting insta-gibbed by such things….I guess the problem is with stealth stacking, not lack of survivability for class X (necro needs something to survive, but letting them start with half life force bar is not the solution, utilities are meant for stuff like that, imo.)
Yolo queue FTW [YOLO] – Desolation (EU)
Champion Magus, Genius
(edited by Shar.3402)
Let’s not forget that Necros have the highest base HP in the game.
Let’s not forget that Necros have the highest base HP in the game.
shared by warriors, both of which are regarded as the easiest kills in PvP. kinda ironic, huh?
I’ve stayed at this party entirely too long
Don’t thieves already start with Initiative… maybe that’s why I get 2 2 2 2 2 or 3 3 3 33 3 at the start of every match-up.
Thieves having to build Init from the beginning, I like that.
My fun laughs at your server pride.
Let’s not forget that Necros have the highest base HP in the game.
High hp doesn’t really mean much in this game.
Evades are the #1 source of damage reduction, and can reduce thousands of damage at once.
27k hp can stop 27k damage at once. Then you’re dead.
There’s no better attrition than 16k hp able to be healed to full over and over for 5+ minutes versus someone with 27k hp who will inevitably dwindle away after 2. That’s just how it is.
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
Unbelievable.
Finally, an ANet rep having a discussion about the Necro’s needs, and they’ve having it with players who don’t even main a Necro, in a forum where most dedicated Necros won’t even be looking…
Stealth openers? This is what is crippling Necro survivability? Really???? It couldn’t be that a Necro’s entire survivability is tied to a slow accrue/slow expend mechanic that doesn’t keep up with the pace of pvp combat? It couldn’t be compounded the fact that their complete inability to disengage a fight obliges them to stay and fight any time someone chooses to engage them regardless of whether it is tactically or situationally beneficial for the Necro or their team.
Just carry on though, I’m sure Necros will thank you for this later…
In case you aren’t aware….this is the SPVP forum. It means she’s having the conversation where everyone can comment – not just biased Necros.
[DA] Decisive Actions – Jade Quarry
Mist form has a SEVENTY-FIVE seconds cooldown, disables ALL your skills. It also takes up an utility slot.
Thieves teleport has an initiative COST and removes the thief from the fight (well, kinda)
Death shroud has a 10 seconds cooldown, allows the necro to: damage, teleport, fear, aoe damage, torment+immobilize, and depending on traits it can apply retaliation/weakness/whateverdon’t compare apples to oranges or melons.
Death Shroud has a 7 second cooldown and can only be cast once the necro actually has enough life force to use it. And it does nothing to stop you from getting gibbed at the start of a fight. Teleport and Mist form do. Therefore, for the situation we are discussing, they are far superior means of damage avoidance than Death Shroud.
apples to apples.
BTW, I see a lot of complains about “necro getting gibbed from stealth openers”, but that’s a problem for every class. I’ve seen guardians getting insta-gibbed by such things….I guess the problem is with stealth stacking, not lack of survivability for class X (necro needs something to survive, but letting them start with half life force bar is not the solution, utilities are meant for stuff like that, imo.)
You play an ele – you aren’t getting gibbed from a stealth opener. If you are, then you’re doing something wrong. You have enough escapes that a stealth opener would be wasted.
Personally I’m fine with giving Necromancers a utility slot as an escape mechanism. Here’s how I’d go about doing it:
- Flesh Wurm: Necrotic Traversal ignores line of sight and will remain available to the Necromancer until the cooldown of “Summon Flesh Wurm” has reset.
Death shroud takes up an utility slot? no, it doesn’t. Mist form does? yes. Apples to oranges. Again.
Also, you’re assuming every elementalist runs with mist form. I don’t. Phantaram doesn’t. Mogow doesn’t. Many other high profile elementalists (higher than me for sure, I’m just a random_elementalist_#1337) don’t. Yet I don’t come to the forums asking for elementalists to have better survival because I just got insta-gibbed from 4 stealth enemies.
Also, you can already start with 30% life force by swapping minion utilities, be it a bug or not, if you’re not doing that, then you’re doing something wrong.
What I see all the time, is people wanting to run glass cannon builds (be it necro, thief, warrior, whatever), and then complaining they have no survivability. It’s the same thing as an old-school warrior running with frenzy+bull’s charge+balanced stance (or whatever), running in with his one-trick-combo and then complaining he got no way to cleanse conditions (even when he could trait for remove condi on heals, run signet of stamina, etc..).
Now we see fotm necros running 30/30/10 with full offensive/cc oriented utilities (instead of say, flesh wurm to disengage, if los allows, or spectral armor), and then complaining they have no surv…
Yolo queue FTW [YOLO] – Desolation (EU)
Champion Magus, Genius
(edited by Shar.3402)
Death shroud takes up an utility slot? no, it doesn’t. Mist form does? yes. Apples to oranges.
You are compraing class mechanics with a skill…what a shame!
Does DS give Necro +15 skills? – Nope.
Can Necro use DS anytime? – Nope.
And still you are talking about one utility slot , sry but it is just funny!
Fotm build was played, because there was/is lack of survavobilty!
What is the meaning of lifEee?
(edited by Issues.5789)
Death shroud takes up an utility slot? no, it doesn’t. Mist form does? yes. Apples to oranges.
You are compraing class mechanics with a skill…what a shame!
Does DS give Necro +15 skills? – Nope.
Can Necro use DS anytime? – Nope.
And still you are talking about one utility slot , sry but it is just funny!Fotm build was played, because there was/is lack of survavobilty!
I’m not the one who brought mist form into the conversation in the first place, you might want to read the whole topic to avoid making a fool out of yourself. It is just funny!
The rest of your reply doesn’t even deserve an answer.
Yolo queue FTW [YOLO] – Desolation (EU)
Champion Magus, Genius
I first want to say thank you to Allie for coming in here and posting so much! Really appreciate being able to converse with someone at Anet and I’ve definitely noticed you’ve been posting a lot more recently.
As for Necros starting with Life Force… pretty much any practiced Necro will open up a match with a little bit of Life Force using the minion summon/switch that was mentioned before. So until this changes (if it should at all), giving all Necros Life Force at the start shouldn’t even be in consideration.
What Defektive was bringing up was a stealth opener, which is incredibly difficult to counter on any profession. Even on builds that have the ability to reset easily (Mesmers, Eles, etc.), the character being attacked has to blow vital cooldowns at the start of the match in order to survive. The stealth opener is incredibly strong and could use some sort of counter; it is not a profession-specific issue.
Back to Necros… as was brought up in the previous GW2Guru SotG, I would like to see Necros move back towards being more of an attrition class. Currently (and it even seems so with the newly implemented nerfs, though I haven’t had a chance to play today), they are able to burst just as well as a class built as a power based glass cannon. These are conditions we’re talking about! Necros simply provide too much to a teamfight and do so even if the player is relatively inexperienced. I’m very interested in seeing how today’s changes affect their play and use. I really wish that Dhuumfire had been addressed rather than Terror, but I guess we will have to wait and see.
tl;dr Necro does not need to start with Life Force as they already can. A stealth opener could use some sort of counter. I’m seriously hoping Necro damage has been toned down but they retain their strong control and presence.
jo0 Binder
Stealth openers are going to gib anybody, not just necros.
Untrue. Mesmers can go invisible/teleport. Elementalists can go mist form or RTL. Thieves just vanish. Elementalists can Elixir. Rangers can stealth now. Guardians are.. well guardians.
RTL and stealth aren’t really good counters. One of the attacks just needs to use a short immobolize.
As for the coordinated spike problem, it’s as you said, it’s because necros don’t have a strong short term damage mitigation. That doesn’t necessarily mean they need more life force as the solution.
(edited by Navzar.2938)
Why don’t you actually give us some lifeforce at the beginning of the game? If you want us to use deathshroud for some survivability give us the ability to actually USE it to survive.
It’s like a guardian saying “Yeah I’m going to bunker this point, but I’m not going to use stability until I’ve died and come back because I’ll have used enough of my skills by that time to use it”.
For the love of kittens could we get some lifeforce at the start of matches?
Just spam some random kitten on points and it’s fine, you’ll get your life force in no time, everyone does and seems to work great….you still have your 37 fears+plague and other crap for survivability, you’ll be fine for those 20 seconds…trust me…talking about openers someone going 3 on 1 in stealth at the beginning is going to explode anyone, even a bunker guardian, so being gibbed by a decent stealth opener is normal for every class, not saying is not a bad mechanic…but noone is going to survive a 3 dps spike so getting ganked is totally fine..btw if you suspect a stealth opener you can still put the kitten i mentioned above all around…low cd so you’re not going to waste so much..
(edited by Archaon.6245)
I see! Thanks for explaining this with such detail!
With all that you’ve said (btw, really appreciate your objective feedback), do you agree that necros need something else to boost their survivability?
I think that there should be a counter to stealth openers in general, instead of just focusing on giving a profession more tools to survive(not that there isn’t a problem with necro’s survivability).
I have characters of all 8 classes, but I only play Thief and Necro in sPvP. I play Thief because it’s fun and it’s the class I decided I wanted to practice in sPvP. I play Necro because it’s the most overpowered class in sPvP and sometimes I just want easy-mode kills.
So you guys are complaining that you want even more buffs so that Necros can be the best at every aspect of sPvP rather than just most of them?
Sorrow’s Furnace Commander
“You’re the mount, karka’s ride you instead, and thus they die happy!”-Colin Johanson
(edited by EnemyCrusher.7324)
ANet needed to be told that a class designed with no mobility, escapes, or ways to stop from being trained to death is a poor choice?
While the Necromancer is no doubt powerful and has a great deal of utility, it’s exactly as Defektive has said. People train down the weak link not because they’re a threat, but because fighting with a number advantage is valuable.
A great deal of the Necro’s advantage is masked by the simple fact that conditions aren’t properly balanced in this game because they’re a single-stat source of damage. But even a novice knows the Necro and Warrior are prime targets because they can’t get away.
Simply boosting deathshroud isn’t going to be enough and adjustments to it have never been enough every time they roll out. It needs a withdraw style heal. It needs a blink/swap. It needs an AE knockback. Something…
Ok Defektive.7283, then answer me this. Since it is common in tPvP, you’re suggesting that the opportunity cost of focusing on the necro, as opposed to someone else on the team, or focusing on capping a point/other secondary objective is not great enough?
If so, then let me ask you this: if there was a different class that felt more threatening, would you perform the same maneuver on them instead?
What I’m seeing is – you’re establishing a threat according to your team comp, and focusing on that threat. If a necro didn’t threaten your team because of the comp that you’re running, would you still do that?
How is it not counter, when there is a specific condition that is necessary for the success of that strategy? Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re saying, but it sounds a lot like counter play to me.
You are incorrectly inferring that targets are placed based on their threat level.
Targets are generally chosen based on squishyness / ability to escape the damage train.
In the early game, capturing a point isn’t important, winning the first team fight is.
If you can eliminate key players, or even 1 player quickly enough, you have a fight in your advantage.Necromancers are PRIME targets, no matter their damage because of their complete inability to mitigate pressure or to tank it. Warriors unfortunately suffer from the same fate, we have no Z axis teleport or invulnerability unless we pop all of our utilities.
Early game:
1) Eliminate the easiest target from stealth.
2) Put the team fight in your advantage early on.
3) Switch targets to the most threatening in order to apply pressure and reduce their damage output.
4) Wipe out the remaining players
5) Capture the point.Who cares if you’re down 20-30 points in the early game if you can secure a 2 cap immediately after and hold it for 2-5 minutes.
There is no opportunity cost to doing this, only an advantage to gain if your team understands how to use stealth mechanics correctly and can point out a target who can’t avoid your damage.
I see! Thanks for explaining this with such detail!
With all that you’ve said (btw, really appreciate your objective feedback), do you agree that necros need something else to boost their survivability?
The most effective way to do this is simply increase the amount of life force generation on skills and add some life force generation on skills that currently do not have it. Instead of gaining 2% life force on hit why not 4%? Remove the Talent the grants life force when marks are triggered and make it like that normally. I would rather have more options to generate life force and those options to be better then having to wait around for stuff to die to build up life force.
In summery
1. Increase the amount of life force gained by skills that already give you life force instead of 2% 4-7% would be nice
2. Increase the amount of skills that generate life force
3. For the sake of balance and if enough life force gain on skills is added remove the “gain life force when something dies”
Stunned Girls Can’t Say No <Hawt>
Take necro base hp …. swap with elemenalist … give necro more max life force meter and 100% at start of match … everyone is now happy.
Sophea Sladorian – Charr Ranger – [DECM] | Sea of Sorrows
Sophea Of Elements – Human Elementalist – [DECM] | Sea of Sorrows
Take necro base hp …. swap with elemenalist … give necro more max life force meter and 100% at start of match … everyone is now happy.
I wouldn’t go that far. Also good luck killing a bunker ele then :P
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
So how does this relate to this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Truth-and-justice/
Are Necro’s easy to kill and need life force at the start of the game, or are they unkillable death machines?
These two threads seem to be entirely disparate and diametrically opposed.
“Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.”
-Arthur Schopenhauer
Take the medium of the two.
Necro’s are eating up quite a bit of damage, and putting out a significant amount that well still feels somewhat absurd for how long they’re maintaining themself with shroud.
Without that lifeshroud however it’s not really a biggie and they go down fairly quickly. So sure at the beginning of the fight they’ll go down easily after that it’s a pain.
Take the medium of the two.
Necro’s are eating up quite a bit of damage, and putting out a significant amount that well still feels somewhat absurd for how long they’re maintaining themself with shroud.Without that lifeshroud however it’s not really a biggie and they go down fairly quickly. So sure at the beginning of the fight they’ll go down easily after that it’s a pain.
Nods. I’m simply illustrating the fact that we often hear things from the players that are diametrically opposed. And thus, if it’s hard to do “what the players want”. This is a good example of that.
“Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.”
-Arthur Schopenhauer
Take the medium of the two.
Necro’s are eating up quite a bit of damage, and putting out a significant amount that well still feels somewhat absurd for how long they’re maintaining themself with shroud.Without that lifeshroud however it’s not really a biggie and they go down fairly quickly. So sure at the beginning of the fight they’ll go down easily after that it’s a pain.
Nods. I’m simply illustrating the fact that we often hear things from the players that are diametrically opposed. And thus, if it’s hard to do “what the players want”. This is a good example of that.
IMO:
Their early game is weak, but once the fight is going on, they are very strong.
Take the medium of the two.
Necro’s are eating up quite a bit of damage, and putting out a significant amount that well still feels somewhat absurd for how long they’re maintaining themself with shroud.Without that lifeshroud however it’s not really a biggie and they go down fairly quickly. So sure at the beginning of the fight they’ll go down easily after that it’s a pain.
Nods. I’m simply illustrating the fact that we often hear things from the players that are diametrically opposed. And thus, if it’s hard to do “what the players want”. This is a good example of that.
The problem with this thinking is that Deathshroud is a tool for damage, NOT A TOOL FOR MITIGATION
If you stand inside Deathshroud to eat a burst, you now have no class mechanic, no tools, and have to rebuild it all up again. No good player will ever stand inside Deathshroud for 15 seconds to eat damage unless they are built for it, because then they are wasting their best tool.
Let’s brainstorm some scenarios if we did this, FOR SCIENCE!
If death shroud = survivability, and we allowed necros to have death shroud from the start, then how could that change how necros play? How would this affect certain maps and the balance of those maps? How would this affect the meta? How would this affect other classes?
Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?
Ultimately, what I’m looking for is the reasoning, and why you feel this would be a positive change for the game. I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.
There’s a big difference in how easy adrenaline and initiative get generated compared to LF.
Also, there is nothing more kitten than a Necro with zero LF. The delta in survivability alone (not to mention any of the damage abilities) is far too great.
The real question to ask YOU is…How much LF is ANET budgeting a Necro will have for a fight when doing internal balance testing? Is it zero, 50%, 100%??? How did you come to whatever figure you budgeted?
I have no idea how you can even answer those questions the way you structured things.
In short…you are playing with fire by making Necros so weak out of the gate. If you make a profession super kitten compared to everyone else, then you also have to make them super powerful later with full LF.
If this design is intentional, then congratulations…you have succeeded. However, I think it would be better overall for the game if the delta wasn’t as big. You’d have less justifiable complaints each way from people saying that Necros are OP/UP.
I just don’t understand why it’s apparently OK that we get 30 percent life force at the start of a match by killing our own minions, but it’s not OK to just give it as a default and remove the ability to get life force from minions.
Stealth openers are going to gib anybody, not just necros.
Untrue. Mesmers can go invisible/teleport. Elementalists can go mist form or RTL. Thieves just vanish. Elementalists can Elixir. Rangers can stealth now. Guardians are.. well guardians.
RTL and stealth aren’t really good counters. One of the attacks just needs to use a short immobolize.
As for the coordinated spike problem, it’s as you said, it’s because necros don’t have a strong short term damage mitigation. That doesn’t necessarily mean they need more life force as the solution.
Oh I agree! I don’t think more life force is the solution. I think a reliable disengage (i.e. one that can’t be killed) on a utility slot is the solution. If necros could really rely on Flesh Wurm as a viable disengage, and didn’t take it – well, then that’s the player’s issue and not a problem with the game.
Take the medium of the two.
Necro’s are eating up quite a bit of damage, and putting out a significant amount that well still feels somewhat absurd for how long they’re maintaining themself with shroud.Without that lifeshroud however it’s not really a biggie and they go down fairly quickly. So sure at the beginning of the fight they’ll go down easily after that it’s a pain.
Nods. I’m simply illustrating the fact that we often hear things from the players that are diametrically opposed. And thus, if it’s hard to do “what the players want”. This is a good example of that.
The problem with this thinking is that Deathshroud is a tool for damage, NOT A TOOL FOR MITIGATION
If you stand inside Deathshroud to eat a burst, you now have no class mechanic, no tools, and have to rebuild it all up again. No good player will ever stand inside Deathshroud for 15 seconds to eat damage unless they are built for it, because then they are wasting their best tool.
Very questionable thinking. Every good play SHOULD go into deathshroud to eat damage and stall. Whilst in Deathshroud, they should use their “best tool” till they feel the pressure is off and their heal is up.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ceimash
http://www.twitch.tv/ceimash
Take the medium of the two.
Necro’s are eating up quite a bit of damage, and putting out a significant amount that well still feels somewhat absurd for how long they’re maintaining themself with shroud.Without that lifeshroud however it’s not really a biggie and they go down fairly quickly. So sure at the beginning of the fight they’ll go down easily after that it’s a pain.
Nods. I’m simply illustrating the fact that we often hear things from the players that are diametrically opposed. And thus, if it’s hard to do “what the players want”. This is a good example of that.
The problem with this thinking is that Deathshroud is a tool for damage, NOT A TOOL FOR MITIGATION
If you stand inside Deathshroud to eat a burst, you now have no class mechanic, no tools, and have to rebuild it all up again. No good player will ever stand inside Deathshroud for 15 seconds to eat damage unless they are built for it, because then they are wasting their best tool.
Very questionable thinking. Every good play SHOULD go into deathshroud to eat damage and stall. Whilst in Deathshroud, they should use their “best tool” till they feel the pressure is off and their heal is up.
If you’re stunlocked, or focused, that will do you no good whatsoever. Your best tool is Doom, that’s your strongest damage removal right there, a way to interrupt burst done to you, it’s also a tool for applying extra damage, interrupting heals, etc.
The best tool we have, is Deathshroud 3. It’s also very situational unfortunately, and a Scepter/Dagger Staff Necro has very little access to Life Force compared to other builds. Standing in Deathshroud to eat a burst when being focused, simply removed any of your effective tools/damage the next time you are fighting, smart players will simply get you to waste your Deathshroud, reset, then come back and kill you.
Death shroud takes up an utility slot? no, it doesn’t. Mist form does? yes. Apples to oranges. Again.
Also, you’re assuming every elementalist runs with mist form. I don’t. Phantaram doesn’t. Mogow doesn’t. Many other high profile elementalists (higher than me for sure, I’m just a random_elementalist_#1337) don’t.
And they don’t because they have so many other on-demand damage mitigators and disengages at their disposal (not to mention down state mist form), that they don’t NEED to take the Mist Form Cantrip.
The best tool we have, is Deathshroud 3. It’s also very situational unfortunately, and a Scepter/Dagger Staff Necro has very little access to Life Force compared to other builds. Standing in Deathshroud to eat a burst when being focused, simply removed any of your effective tools/damage the next time you are fighting, smart players will simply get you to waste your Deathshroud, reset, then come back and kill you.
Very true – Scepter generates hardly any life force.
So how does this relate to this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Truth-and-justice/
Are Necro’s easy to kill and need life force at the start of the game, or are they unkillable death machines?
These two threads seem to be entirely disparate and diametrically opposed.
As you can see, the necro in the video have already a 50% full lf bar+ he use a traited with gluttony spectral armor (60s cd) to mitigate damage + Death Shroud (10s cooldown+lf requirement).
Many profession can achieve the same result with way less resources invested (as just a weapon skill or a single utility) and with a shorter cd.
So this video don’t add anything new to the discussion and no, “these two threads seem to be entirely disparate and diametrically opposed” is not true, as they are just unrelated.
(edited by Tiborb.1453)
I’m gonna jump out and talk about this. People knows that I play warrior, but I have also played Nerco for like 2k+ games.
What I have see is a bunch of people who doesn’t understand Nerco that complains. In my opinion, most Nercos right now will bring Epidemic, Spectral Walk, Spectral Wall, or even switch Spectral Walk to the Corrupt Boon or Plague Sigent to tournament.
If you are the Nerco who bring those skills that I just mentioned, you do not have a right situation to blame on A-Net. It’s your own choice to abandon other good skills to help yourself escape. You choose to bring skills that are powerful for team-fights, then you must be ready to get burst down because you don’t even bring defensive skills (Spectral Walk, Spectral Armor, Flesh Wurm). You complainer have to do some brainstorm before you complain. To give a full bar of Life Force is indeed too much for Nerco.
So here is the situation that somebody just said “We went into stealth, and walk to enemy team’s Nerco, and burst him down in 2 sec.” Well you probably playing against some bad Nercos or bad teams that doesn’t even cover their Nerco. And if the Nerco only brings utility for team-fight like Epidemic, or Corrupt Boon, then to get burst down in 2 sec is his fate.
So basically what I see is a bunch of Nerco want to bring all the utility skills that can kill everyone in team-fight, and also asking A-Net to give them more survivability when they don’t even run any protect skills from utilities. (same as warrior’s community, many people don’t even try and start complaining)
(edited by Anastasis.7258)
Ya if someone comes into a match without a stun break or with little to no damage mitigation and they get globaled by burst its their own fault.
mordran.4750, I appreciate your feedback, and understand your feelings. While I’m not entirely happy with the sense of entitlement I’m getting from your post (I could be completely wrong about that – internet makes it hard to read people, so sorry if I am), I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. If you have any specific ideas as to how you would like to see this, I’m all ears. I will say that information on design philosophy with patch notes is something we have discussed internally, and something we do want to do eventually.
Thanks for the feedback!
Why didn’t/don’t you guys use the format you previously used from GW1?
http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/developer_updates/september_2012_skill_balances.php
It would help alleviate some of the frustration players feel when something is nerfed if they knew why (it’s not always going to be the case, a lot of people will be upset regardless of why, some might be even moreso when they find out why). It also brings the devs and players closer in terms of how they think about balance and the meta. I think players would probably give more constructive feedback if the devs gave critical explanations of buffs and nerfs.
Sorry to hijack Death Shrouds thread, but the general idea applies to that. Jon’s post about the necro changes (and how all classes shouldn’t have all tools equally) is the kind of thing that is helpful for players to hear. A common trend I see with class forums is sometimes players feel like their class role is poorly defined and they don’t see the same picture that the devs see.
Let’s brainstorm some scenarios if we did this, FOR SCIENCE!
If death shroud = survivability, and we allowed necros to have death shroud from the start, then how could that change how necros play? How would this affect certain maps and the balance of those maps? How would this affect the meta? How would this affect other classes?
Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?
Ultimately, what I’m looking for is the reasoning, and why you feel this would be a positive change for the game. I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.
Because the necromancer lacks other means to mitigate damage. We have no blocks, evades or vigor. None. Everybody else does but us.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigor
Can you explain to us how this is balanced? Right now there is no way for a necromancer to avoid being assist trained and yet we keep getting our survivability nerfed. It makes no sense.
The correct answer.