Guild Wars 2

Fungalfoot.7213:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Let’s brainstorm some scenarios if we did this, FOR SCIENCE!

If death shroud = survivability, and we allowed necros to have death shroud from the start, then how could that change how necros play? How would this affect certain maps and the balance of those maps? How would this affect the meta? How would this affect other classes?

Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?

Ultimately, what I’m looking for is the reasoning, and why you feel this would be a positive change for the game. I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.

Because the necromancer lacks other means to mitigate damage. We have no blocks, evades or vigor. None. Everybody else does but us.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigor

Can you explain to us how this is balanced? Right now there is no way for a necromancer to avoid being assist trained and yet we keep getting our survivability nerfed. It makes no sense.

I made a thread on that a few moments ago, check it out and give your input on how I believe it should be fixed. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Necromancer-Survivability-Explanation-Advice/first#post2474827

ronpierce.2760:

TGSlasher.1458:

Take necro base hp …. swap with elemenalist … give necro more max life force meter and 100% at start of match … everyone is now happy.

I wouldn’t go that far. Also good luck killing a bunker ele then :P

Bunker eles can be easy to beat. They take a long time, but still, pretty easy. I have run 2 builds that used to beat them, though they have both pretty much been nerfed by the same nerfs that affected the bunker build lol (good bye 100% protection, I will miss you).

JonathanSharp.7094:

So how does this relate to this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Truth-and-justice/

Are Necro’s easy to kill and need life force at the start of the game, or are they unkillable death machines?

These two threads seem to be entirely disparate and diametrically opposed.

The difference is clear.

First, that thread is a joke for the simple reason that you can archieve the same amount of invulnerability by just using any of the invulnerability/block/evade/distortion skill on any profession.
Secondly, to archieve those ~6 seconds of invulnerability you need to have Life Force. A Warrior does not need to build up adrenaline to use Endure Pain.

It’s not a special problem of the condimancer you are talking about, it’ s still the awesome stealth abuse…

Necro is a squishi target for eating shadowbomb burst? Well, all classes are…

If there is non necro, take a elementalist, take a messmer, or at least take the guardian for instant free teamfight win… You can oneshot EACH class without any problems in this current state of the game…

Stealth needs a complete rework, you cant allow teams stealth durations for more than 5 maybe 6 seconds. pre patch people QQ about about MOA, Meta used moa’ing the guardian and wip him donw instantly after this.

Nowadays moa isn’t needed anymore, stealth→oneshot→win.

Defektive.7283:

Allie Murdock.8152:

sorrow.2364:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Let’s brainstorm some scenarios if we did this, FOR SCIENCE!

If death shroud = survivability, and we allowed necros to have death shroud from the start, then how could that change how necros play? How would this affect certain maps and the balance of those maps? How would this affect the meta? How would this affect other classes?

Also, if we gave necros death shroud, should we give warriors adrenaline? Should we give thieves initiative? Should we give everyone everything they ever wanted?

Ultimately, what I’m looking for is the reasoning, and why you feel this would be a positive change for the game. I’m curious, because it’s easy to say “I want, I want” without saying why.

I think that the reason is quite simple.
Death Shroud is, by far, the most prominent source of survivability of Necromancer, while adrenaline is used only for offensive purposes (I don’t know what you meant with giving initiative on thieves, since they start the match with full initiative anyway :P).

What I’m trying to say is that to build up Life Force you are supposed to survive but, if you want to survive, you’d probably want to use Death Shroud, which is based on Life Force, which is what you want to survive for.
It is a vicious circle.

About adrenaline it is different. Adrenaline is solely for offensive purposes. You hit your enemy, you build adrenaline and then unleakittens destructive power :P

Sure sure, but if we gave you life force at the beginning of the match, how would that help you when you’re in battle? What I mean is, by the time you get into combat, have used a fear or two, have used some life steal, other life-force producing skills, etc., do you not have the life force you need to try and survive? Wouldn’t that mean you’d actually have a surplus of life force?

Don’t forget that you’re also doing tons of damage while you’re casting all those abilities. Is it really balanced to give you survivability AND glass-cannon damage all at once?

Allie,

Against a good team right in the beginning, we like to stealth ontop of their necro (or mesmer) and just 100-0 them before they can react. This is the scenario they are worried about. You’re inferring combat takes place in a slow fashion in the beginning. People get gibbed pretty quick in the first fight.

A good mesmer would simply decoy into a mass invis to disengage, a good mesmer would know the timers in which he was going to be opened on. I’m sorry but your argument is invalid. There is always two sides of the story friend.

Countless

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Dirame.8521:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

JonathanSharp.7094:

ensoriki.5789:

Take the medium of the two.
Necro’s are eating up quite a bit of damage, and putting out a significant amount that well still feels somewhat absurd for how long they’re maintaining themself with shroud.

Without that lifeshroud however it’s not really a biggie and they go down fairly quickly. So sure at the beginning of the fight they’ll go down easily after that it’s a pain.

Nods. I’m simply illustrating the fact that we often hear things from the players that are diametrically opposed. And thus, if it’s hard to do “what the players want”. This is a good example of that.

The problem with this thinking is that Deathshroud is a tool for damage, NOT A TOOL FOR MITIGATION

If you stand inside Deathshroud to eat a burst, you now have no class mechanic, no tools, and have to rebuild it all up again. No good player will ever stand inside Deathshroud for 15 seconds to eat damage unless they are built for it, because then they are wasting their best tool.

Very questionable thinking. Every good play SHOULD go into deathshroud to eat damage and stall. Whilst in Deathshroud, they should use their “best tool” till they feel the pressure is off and their heal is up.

If you’re stunlocked, or focused, that will do you no good whatsoever. Your best tool is Doom, that’s your strongest damage removal right there, a way to interrupt burst done to you, it’s also a tool for applying extra damage, interrupting heals, etc.

The best tool we have, is Deathshroud 3. It’s also very situational unfortunately, and a Scepter/Dagger Staff Necro has very little access to Life Force compared to other builds. Standing in Deathshroud to eat a burst when being focused, simply removed any of your effective tools/damage the next time you are fighting, smart players will simply get you to waste your Deathshroud, reset, then come back and kill you.

When using Deathshroud, you’re still stalling your death. The amount of times I’ve used DS to take a ton of damage just to stall till my heal was up is too many to count. Yes people will try to make you waste Deathshroud, but every second spent in DS is you staying alive longer.

Disengage (via teleport, stealth, block, evade, invuln, you name it)>facetanking.
While the former always allows you to survive for a minimum of the duration of stealth/block/evade/invuln, or the time it takes for your pursuers to catch up to you (teleport), the additional time gained by facetanking in DS is extremely relative to and greatly dependant on the type of damage tanked, number of pursuers, and lastly, the amount of DS generated beforehand, along with the DS traits and point investment into SR.
It can be said with a fair share of certainty that the odds are against the necros at the very start of the fight, which could easily be seen as the most important part of a match, also because a good team will know exactly how to maintain such head advantage.
So unless your solution is to bring spectral walk, flesh wurm, and spectral armor as to avoid getting roflstomped start-on, the argument of having double hp bar as an adequate source of damage mitigation simply doesn’t hold water.

It makes senses for them not to have LF at the start! Nercos are an attrition class meaning the longer the fight the more it should lean into there favor, being weak at the start of a fight means the opponent has a chance to kill the Nerco before they start getting the upper hand.

JonathanSharp.7094:

So how does this relate to this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Truth-and-justice/

Are Necro’s easy to kill and need life force at the start of the game, or are they unkillable death machines?

These two threads seem to be entirely disparate and diametrically opposed.

Notice how, in that clip, he is starting with about half his lifeforce. In an actual situation an ele could pull that combo off before a Necro even has the opportunity to shift to DS.

It seems like a contrived situation. It’s awesome that we have a tool like that (Though having it available to glass cannon specs may be a little too much) but it remains to be seen if that will be a common scenario.

JonathanSharp.7094:

ensoriki.5789:

Take the medium of the two.
Necro’s are eating up quite a bit of damage, and putting out a significant amount that well still feels somewhat absurd for how long they’re maintaining themself with shroud.

Without that lifeshroud however it’s not really a biggie and they go down fairly quickly. So sure at the beginning of the fight they’ll go down easily after that it’s a pain.

Nods. I’m simply illustrating the fact that we often hear things from the players that are diametrically opposed. And thus, if it’s hard to do “what the players want”. This is a good example of that.

what one could do, is switch two classes..

while this is not really the discussion, the thief can tank heavily while still dishing out massive damage, making it overly strong in 1 v 1. The necro cannot tank while it can do massive damage…. bridge the two, move necro up to medium armor, take thiefs down to light armor.

While neither choice is 100% justified, it would balance out the playing field by making necros less squishy, and making tanker thiefs less tanky.

Prysin.8542:

JonathanSharp.7094:

ensoriki.5789:

Take the medium of the two.
Necro’s are eating up quite a bit of damage, and putting out a significant amount that well still feels somewhat absurd for how long they’re maintaining themself with shroud.

Without that lifeshroud however it’s not really a biggie and they go down fairly quickly. So sure at the beginning of the fight they’ll go down easily after that it’s a pain.

Nods. I’m simply illustrating the fact that we often hear things from the players that are diametrically opposed. And thus, if it’s hard to do “what the players want”. This is a good example of that.

what one could do, is switch two classes..

while this is not really the discussion, the thief can tank heavily while still dishing out massive damage, making it overly strong in 1 v 1. The necro cannot tank while it can do massive damage…. bridge the two, move necro up to medium armor, take thiefs down to light armor.

While neither choice is 100% justified, it would balance out the playing field by making necros less squishy, and making tanker thiefs less tanky.

Thieves can’t tank for [censored] so not sure where that’s coming from. Not to mention a Necro has 2x the health of a Thief…

Defektive.7283:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Defektive.7283:

Allie,

Against a good team right in the beginning, we like to stealth ontop of their necro (or mesmer) and just 100-0 them before they can react. This is the scenario they are worried about. You’re inferring combat takes place in a slow fashion in the beginning. People get gibbed pretty quick in the first fight.

Sure, but then we’re just talking about opportunity cost. You’re dedicating a player to finding a necro to take them out, which pulls that player out of the game. Counter play is something that cannot, and should not, be prevented in the game. One could argue that it’s the whole point of competitive PvP, or what sets competitive PvP apart. You analyze, and adjust to the other teams strategies. Am I wrong?

Also, I was not inferring that combat takes place in a slow fashion. Just fyi

No no no, we’re not dedicating one player to killing a necro. We’re stealthing with 3-4 people, with 10+ seconds of stealth. Targeting the necro. Walking past their team, and gibbing him in under a second.

This is fairly common play in tPvP and is why Necros are freaking out about their survivability in the early game.

If their team comes to res, they have to sacrifice an instant res immediately, or take a ton of cleave damage early in the game.

This isn’t counter play, it’s just the way high level tPvP is if you have a thief on the enemy team.

The only real way to counter this right now is to have your squishiest players sit very far back (which is a bonus for the offensive team anyway to gib your frontline) or for you to also run stealth and see which team pops out of stealth first.

Really? Allie made an agruement about opportunity cost and having to dedicate 1 player to focus on a necro and your counter agruement is “No, we have to use 3-4 players”?

If you feel the other team is coming to gank you, why not adjust your gameplay or have your teammates around you to counter instead of asking Dev to buff your character?

Allie and Jon,

I am glad to see you guys taking an active role in discussion here. The guys from SOAC and I had a long discussion about the Necromancer changes and I also got the opportunity to talk with Xeph about the class.

The problem with the Necromancer was never damage. Sure we were a little behind the engineer, but the engineer was brought not because of damage so much as because they didn’t need to be babysat to stay alive. Now that the necro does an obscene amount of damage players are noticing the little tricks we used before we could get destroyed by a single thief with no opportunity to escape to simply survive.

The problem we have now is the Necromancer is the definition of a snowball class. If I have limited to no death shroud I am ineffective and dead. If i am alone with 20 percent or less LF and carry a stun breaker that isn’t spectral armor I am dead or if spectral armor is on cd than I am dead. There is no way for me to avoid the incoming damage and no way for me to escape the fight.

However if I can survive long enough to get 40 perecent LF, and my guardian or Ele is alive and able to keep Prot on me. I can turn into an unkillable machine. DS is extremely effective now at any point past 20 percent or at which it can outlast the amount of damage inflicted by the opponent. So in the tpvp scene where condition spam and bunkers is the meta we are snowballing team fights. Our damage is still ridiculous (nerf to terror was an extremely odd nerf when the issue is the sheer volume of condition damage combined with terror and Life Blast).

So once we get deathshroud rolling and we get hit by a non-burst class we can just sit and farm players. However if our DS runs out or Prot isn’t provided or we simply start a fight with limited ds, we are easily trained down by any semi-skilled team or player.

This creates a snowball effect in which the sheer volume of damage, the necessary changes to weakness, team protection, and the recent fix to the 200 percent damage increase when in ds creates an incredible damage dealing power machine in team fights. This creates a massive disadvantage against any team that runs any form of condition cleave or bunker approach because the necro with a large access to weakness and a full ds bar along with some protection from guard or ele will be incredibly difficult to whittle down while pumping out an obscene amount of damage.

The DS change that angers everyone is the overlay as it was our soul source of damage soaking for pve and WvWvW where the damage comes in fast and hard in greater than 10 second intervals. I used 20 percent DS to soak up 20k boss hits because I was out of energy from dodging it twice and while everyone else had recouped dodge or were able to flip to a full block I used DS to soak it all in.

TLDR: The Necro is a snowball class currently. Pre 40 percent DS they are free kills in every environment. After 40 percent DS they can farm kill and destroy teams. I watched Zomb and Gibbly destroy 3 v 1’s. The biggest hurt to the overflow is in situations where we have to play defensive and use it to defend or help escape the damage. Now if I am at 20 percent health and 20 percent LF I have no evade, escape, or method to absorb the incoming damage. Therefore I am not an attrition class I am simply a snowballing class of death.

Easy Fix: Let DS work the way it has by absorbing the damage delivered or give us a method to get out of a fight or simply allow other players to heal us in ds at a 50 percent reduction. Reduce the proc rate of Dhuumfire. Increase the amount healed in siphon and allow siphoning to heal while in ds at it’s current state, but when out of DS allow it to heal 100 percent stronger.

kai.4629:

Really? Allie made an agruement about opportunity cost and having to dedicate 1 player to focus on a necro and your counter agruement is “No, we have to use 3-4 players”?

If you feel the other team is coming to gank you, why not adjust your gameplay or have your teammates around you to counter instead of asking Dev to buff your character?

Way to take something out of context. He explained his point simply. Losing a point for 20 seconds to kill one player that can’t escape or prevent the incoming damage swings the team fight in your favor. No one goes 1 on 1 that’s just stupid. In tournament player it’s always 2 v 1 and peeling. With stability/prot/weakness you can just train a necro down as he can’t do anything to stop it, and since he is the only one able to remove that aegis/stability easily then you have just swung the team fight in your favor.

If he pops into DS, and you have any form of stun it will knock him out of ds and lock him out of his only defensive option for 10 seconds. That’s more than enough time for them to kill the necro and then return to help their bunker who is making sure the point isn’t capped.

This isn’t an opportunity cost this is a win anyway you look at it. You swapped the team fight in your favor, and removed the only player who could disable your stability easily. Now it’s just spam fest and you win because you outnumber them. There is no counter to this move.

I like your ideas Bas, although I don’t see why we should only be healed 50% while in DS. We need to work for that lifeforce, we should gain benefits from using it, not be penalized because we had to go into DS when our guardian used his full heal spell, or somebody blasted those water fields.

No other class is invulnerable to incoming buffs/heals/effects from teammates when they’re using their special abilities. Adjust the numbers after if needed, but that’s one mechanic that would help the necro survivability more.

Anastasis.7258:

I’m gonna jump out and talk about this. People knows that I play warrior, but I have also played Nerco for like 2k+ games.

What I have see is a bunch of people who doesn’t understand Nerco that complains. In my opinion, most Nercos right now will bring Epidemic, Spectral Walk, Spectral Wall, or even switch Spectral Walk to the Corrupt Boon or Plague Sigent to tournament.

If you are the Nerco who bring those skills that I just mentioned, you do not have a right situation to blame on A-Net. It’s your own choice to abandon other good skills to help yourself escape. You choose to bring skills that are powerful for team-fights, then you must be ready to get burst down because you don’t even bring defensive skills (Spectral Walk, Spectral Armor, Flesh Wurm). You complainer have to do some brainstorm before you complain. To give a full bar of Life Force is indeed too much for Nerco.

So here is the situation that somebody just said “We went into stealth, and walk to enemy team’s Nerco, and burst him down in 2 sec.” Well you probably playing against some bad Nercos or bad teams that doesn’t even cover their Nerco. And if the Nerco only brings utility for team-fight like Epidemic, or Corrupt Boon, then to get burst down in 2 sec is his fate.

So basically what I see is a bunch of Nerco want to bring all the utility skills that can kill everyone in team-fight, and also asking A-Net to give them more survivability when they don’t even run any protect skills from utilities. (same as warrior’s community, many people don’t even try and start complaining)

+1

pretty much goes for every class though

Allie Murdock.8152:

Thedenofsin.7340:

I think counter play is a great idea, but there’s an implied understanding that the counter play is bi-directional. When a ‘counter’ itself cannot be countered, is that not imbalance?

Great points! Thanks for the feedback!

Sorry to go off topic but if the development team shares this interpretation of play and counterplay, how on earth can they condone the current state of stealth?

If people want a counter to Stealth in tPvP, why not implement the mechanic that allows a person to walk over a buff that gives them the ability to see stealthed players for a short amount of time. The Reveal buff

Your team could choose who is the best choice to pick it up, whether it be a Necro who can spam the other team with marks and feel safer or another AoE capable class.

You guys know what i’m talking about.

So there is one scenario to describe the means of this thread? A necro needs lf to be able to survive a full stealth group? Do you really think you would survive if you had some lf?

Sorry, but this makes no sense. It’s counter play, and unfortunately stealth is very powerful. Even if you had lf, you would still go down, it won’t change anything…..only make necro’s even more powerful than they already are.

I think the scenario that was talked about here, with Necro dying at the start of a match, is really more of a stealth abuse problem than a Necro problem. I also don’t believe the decision to attack the Necro is based completely on ease of the kill. Sure, that factors into it, but they are also a pretty nasty part of the meta and if left alone they will have you loaded up with conditions and have their lifeforce and be much more difficult to kill. It’s kind of like “kill the healers” in games that have healers. If it wasn’t Necro being gibbed, it would be another class.

Give Necro some awesome escape mechanics and next class tPvP teams consider the easiest to gib at the start of a match will be the new target. I think the real answer here is to severely limit team stealth stacking, it just makes the most sense. All this spamming before a match begins to get the bonuses for the first fight is silly anyway, and I am not just talking about stealth here.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Sure sure, but if we gave you life force at the beginning of the match, how would that help you when you’re in battle? What I mean is, by the time you get into combat, have used a fear or two, have used some life steal, other life-force producing skills, etc., do you not have the life force you need to try and survive?

Good teams know to focus the necro instantly because the necro has no stability or lifeforce at the start. A good team will never let a necro get the lifeforce in the first place to survive, the necro will be dead.

Im casual in this game really casual and still got to 300 or so rating at one point just pugging and button mashing, the real issue is the pool of players that are actually good is very low its nothing like say WoW arena in its hayday.

So you really dont have teams exploiting how weak a necro is other then a few very top teams.

On topic, necro is the only class that must avoid fighting before it can fight. Other classes get to play instantly, warrior adren boosts damage so is not tied to the most important thing in GW2, not dying. Necros defense is tied to DS but you can’t get DS until you are in a fight, so you have to be careful not to really get in a fight at the start and hang on the outskirts, and that works fine until you run into a team of players that are actually good and focus you.

Anyway you should probably just buff Guardians more because you dont want a class meta change in a game with a pvp population too small to even have a meta.

Bas nailed it on the assessment of Necro’s current state, although I disagree with the solutions he proposes.

Necro is the prime target for insta-gib from stealth because of two things.

1) Necromancers have absolutely 0 hard mitigation at the start of a tourney. Even when the minion exploit is used to gain 30% LF that the necro shouldn’t be able to get this only delays their death by about 3/4 second against a legit stealth opener raising the time investment for a good team to about 2s.

2) Necromancer downed state is abysmal. They have a long cast, obvious animation, single target Fear on their Down State #2 and nothing else to prevent a stomp. Even Engineer is marginally better in down state. Not only can you 100-0 a necro in under 2s under optimal conditions, but they are a guaranteed stomp once downed unless your team makes a mistake.

With this particular vulnerability of Necro pointed out I feel compelled to say that the damage that they can put out is still a bit much at present, so a glaring weakness like this is warranted. Extremely careful positioning at match start is the only way to avoid the insta-gib for a Necro, and even that is only about a coin-flip at survival against good players, plus it carries the “opportunity cost” of putting your team at a temporary disadvantage until you are able to safely engage.

The content of this thread has gone on a bit of a wild tangent though by getting into stealth openers (which should also be nerfed, but this is a separate issue). I happen to be of the opinion that starting with LF is a poor solution to the problem at hand, and that giving Necromancer truly viable stun breaks and either a disengage or hard mitigation (invuln, block, evades on weapon skills, etc.) are a better solution. Every class that is not a Necromancer (yes, even Warrior, although theirs is the next worst) has access to some tool(s) with which to do this. The Necromancer’s lack of hard mitigation is the reason why it wound up balanced into the glassiest of cannons that can wipe full teams in 10s of free casting or be killed and stomped in under 5s. There is a lot of QQ about Necros on this forum still, and a lot of people crying OP. My opinion is that it is less an issue of balance (because the easiest kill should be the best raw damage dealer) and more an issue of a design choice that the players dislike. Take the Necro damage down a bit and buff their damage mitigation, and I think that even though their relative “balance” will be neutral you won’t see any more QQ about it.

After pvping a bit as a power necro, I use axe/focus, dagger/warhorn with spec walk, flesh wurm, and well of power. Bleeds = vigor so you can get it but you have to go out of your way for it just like mesmers have to for condition removal. Add lyssa runes with the golem to that. I have enough mobility/tankyness for my team to kill some of the guys focusing me without them taking any damage themselves if I have enough LF. I usually run into 3 dudes on a point ON PURPOSE and can get one down and the other two to 60% health while keeping them busy for a while so they are screwed if i have help otw. I think necros might end up being scape goats to keep multiple opponents busy for a while, but there is nothing wrong with that. I’m not as tanky as a guard, but DS can take ANY burst if you have enough LF and some toughness. Plus I can strip boons, chill, and fear so I am good at making sure the guy the team is focusing has no way out no matter what he is. Unless it is a necro like me and just trolls ppl til they stake him :P

deathshroud is fine.

cant have evrything in 1 build folks , either you do great damage , or you are a survivable character.
necro in my eye’s is best mix of both atm. ( sure they lack the ow kitten and run button. but thats it. )

and for all those neccros complaining about that they do not have vigor or invuln.

1 ) deathshroud can absorb high amounts of damage, while doing nice damage in the meanwhile.

2) vigor , sure necros don’t have it. here’s a hint , try out :
– 50% endurance on weapon swap ( sigil of energy ) ( 10 sec cooldown )
- 50% endurance on heal skill ( runes of adventure ) ( 25 sec cooldown )
- full endurance on kill ( another sigil )

now that’s an extra 2 dodges each 25 secs and another extra 2 in team-fights when some1 goes down.
Put in some deathshroud / life leach between those dodges , and you got yourself some hell of survivable build with more dodges then some other classes )

comes back to either you make a survivable build that lasts long , or you make a glasscanon build to kill fast , you cant have both. cause that would be the reason why something is Overpowered ( reason behing the thief / mesmer nerfs most patches ).

hint: spectral skills last longer and grant life force on use

Actually, Necros can drop down 20k healt in 3 or 5 secondes. Are UMBLOKABLE huge AoE damage via conditions, no including raw dmg, minions, siphon health, and self hp.

Necros just come to close and convert all boons in conditions while inflicts more and more conditions, and no has time to counter due to insane dmg.

The only way are try stay in range, but i ends stayng out of ring and no capture.
In exception of warriors, all classes still absurdly strong in close range.
Necros with perma deathshroud will become like Thieves and Mesmers, unkilable.

Way I see it, it is AoE stealth in the beginning that is the problem, not necro or deathshroud lifefoce pool. Infact, this is the only game I have played that has no counter to stealth.

VictorTroska.3725:

Way I see it, it is AoE stealth in the beginning that is the problem, not necro or deathshroud lifefoce pool. Infact, this is the only game I have played that has no counter to stealth.

This.

This is the point I was trying to get across.

Exactly. As I have pointed out many times stealth just isn’t a mechanic that fits into a serious competitive pvp, especially if there is basically no counter to it. Not in the way it’s used in high end tpvp.

I’ll just quote what Phantaram wrote about it not long ago, because it’s a fun read and it paints the picture pretty much the way it really is AND it’s also coming from an experienced tpvp player:

Quote from this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Constructive-balance-lists-go-here/first

Stealth – This is the biggest one for me and I talked about this a long time ago in the SOTG and it’s just gotten more and more out of control. If you have two sources of long stealths in your teams line up your options at any point in the game and especially at the beginning are limitless.
There HAS to be a limit on how much stealth you can get. 6-7 seconds sounds reasonable to me but even then with two sources of stealth that is 12-14 seconds which will still give you tons of options and advantages over the other team. Stealth is a REALLY tough one to balance. As it is now people are walking around the map all leisure like for 30 seconds just talking amongst themselves like “Well I dunno who do you wanna 1 shot? We’ll 1 shot jimmy, no… bob! Well actually lets not even attack this node, onward to the enemy close point! Okay we are all here? Roger Roger. 3 2 4.. I can’t count… go! success! that other team can’t counter our amazing strat lol!”