Guild Wars 2

Ok, so people are complaining that the matchmaker forms teams of stacked classes.

ANet says that, because you can change characters at the start of the match, preventing class stacking via the matchmaker is pointless, therefore they won’t do it.

Maybe we shouldn’t be so black and white about it?

They should modify the matchmaking system based on the assumption that most people tend not to switch classes, and most people only have small number of classes they will prefer to play.

So have a matchmaking system that doesn’t create teams of stacked classes. And if people want to change characters to stack during the match, let them – but we know that the majority of players won’t bother, so it’s not a problem most of the time.

This will increase queue times, of course. We’d have to see whether there’s any increase in match quality to make it worthwhile.

The main possible problem, is if there is a super popular OP class in the balance. People who queue with that class will face extra long queue times since they are fighting for limited team spots with lots of other people with the same class. So you’ll end up with players manipulating the system – queue as another class, change to the OP class during startup. You’d hilariously see entire teams of mixed classes all changing to the OP class, etc.

But that’s a problem with class balance, which needs to be fixed regardless. And it’s not an argument against my proposal, since not having my system still results in everyone using the OP class anyways.

This would mainly solve the double thief problem.

+1 this, it would be an improvement.

I like how you put it.

They deffinitely shouldnt be so black and white about it.

When they can see people mostly dont enjoy switching classes or class stacking, then work with that, instead of just crossng their arms and say no…

I especially like that you dont want it removed, just switched around so its mainly set up for the majority which dont want to switch and give the other the option to stack if they want.

This still doesn’t play nicely with the PvP dailies that are class specific. If those are removed (thus removing any and all incentive for loads of people to play on the same 4 classes at the same time) then this could work. But as long as those remain, they would just make the queues much longer than necessary.

yeah remove them class dailies, it cant be hard to come up with some other dailies instead, if thats whats needed.

I think it only bring annoyance and people have complained about them for as long as i have played.

Vykoz.7803:

yeah remove them class dailies, it cant be hard to come up with some other dailies instead, if thats whats needed.

I think it only bring annoyance and people have complained about them for as long as i have played.

New dailies could be:

Capture 3 nodes.
Defend 3 nodes.
Revive 3 team mates.
Kill 3 different classes.
Interacted with class mechanic.
Won a few games.

Something that can help promote good game play is what I was trying for.

Rieselle.5079:

They should modify the matchmaking system based on the assumption that most people tend not to switch classes, and most people only have small number of classes they will prefer to play.

So a subset of the population doesn’t have a mindset of playing to win. And we should construct a matchmaking and ranked system around them? Ya, bad idea.

Since double-thief is the most common example, here’s my counter. Most of those thief players are mediocre (or worse). Doubling them up only shows how bad they are compared to one or both playing a more forgiving and simple build like dragonhunter. Again, why should the matchmaking algorithm care? Eventually those bad thieves will slide down in rating (and then come to the forums and whine).

You prolly remember class stacking in pro-league when they were playing to win?

It was removed cause it wasn’t entertaining to watch and the pros said themselves it wasn’t entertaining to play.

Why should it be more fun for everyone else?

Now im not against class stacking as general, but id like if the matchmaker tried harder not to make really terrible choices, such as 2x thief on one team and none on the other.

I think it could be great with no class stacking in league, but if it cant be done due to insane queue times, cause lol 50% guard population etc, then it is not something really terrible either.

Class stacking, even if it is hated upon right now, does provide a ton more options for teamcomps.

Vykoz.7803:

You prolly remember class stacking in pro-league when they were playing to win?

Yes. The restrictions were put in place after the June 2015 patch (pre-HoT trait re-work) when d/d ele was dominating every other build. Such restrictions never existed for the 2 years prior nor did they need to exist.

The class restrictions were put in place to cover for awful game balance. The leagues needed to react quickly – must quicker than ANet has shown to be capable. However if balance was reasonable, the restrictions would not have been necessary. Once something is put in place, it’s hard to remove. With balance being questionable ever since June 2015, especially with the addition of elite specs, no one has ever thought about removing those restrictions. And pro-league is effectively dead now.

Why should it be more fun for everyone else?

There are two competing complaints:
1. <build> is overpowered and stacking it is the most reliable way to win.
2. <build> sucks when you have duplicates.

The first is a balance problem. It happens when a build is good at too many things without any clear weaknesses. It can only be addressed by hard caps (which is difficult for PUG play without hurting queue times and match quality). But it should really be addressed by out-of-cycle balance changes. The second is more about player skill and perception, but can be overcome with switches. Neither is adequately addressed by a soft cap.

Exedore.6320:

Rieselle.5079:

They should modify the matchmaking system based on the assumption that most people tend not to switch classes, and most people only have small number of classes they will prefer to play.

So a subset of the population doesn’t have a mindset of playing to win. And we should construct a matchmaking and ranked system around them? Ya, bad idea.

Since double-thief is the most common example, here’s my counter. Most of those thief players are mediocre (or worse). Doubling them up only shows how bad they are compared to one or both playing a more forgiving and simple build like dragonhunter. Again, why should the matchmaking algorithm care? Eventually those bad thieves will slide down in rating (and then come to the forums and whine).

You are so wrong on this one. You are also defending DHs climbing ranks while being terrible lol.

Shadowstep.6049:

You are so wrong on this one. You are also defending DHs climbing ranks while being terrible lol.

Thief archetype attracts players who think they’re better than they actually are. I’d say only about 25% or less of the thieves I run into actually play it well. Too many keep trying to get a kill on sometime over and over instead of giving up for a better target.

I’m not defending DH’s either. I’m simply stating that class restrictions are not the way to address balance problems. The DH problem is a low skill floor which allows many players to spam and perform disproportionately well.

Exedore.6320:

Shadowstep.6049:

You are so wrong on this one. You are also defending DHs climbing ranks while being terrible lol.

Thief archetype attracts players who think they’re better than they actually are. I’d say only about 25% or less of the thieves I run into actually play it well. Too many keep trying to get a kill on sometime over and over instead of giving up for a better target.

I’m not defending DH’s either. I’m simply stating that class restrictions are not the way to address balance problems. The DH problem is a low skill floor which allows many players to spam and perform disproportionately well.

..and your statement is based on what exact facts?

sephiroth.4217:

Vykoz.7803:

yeah remove them class dailies, it cant be hard to come up with some other dailies instead, if thats whats needed.

I think it only bring annoyance and people have complained about them for as long as i have played.

New dailies could be:

Capture 3 nodes.
Defend 3 nodes.
Revive 3 team mates.
Kill 3 different classes.
Interacted with class mechanic.
Won a few games.

Something that can help promote good game play is what I was trying for.

for mid-low game this is more terrible than class dailies, the capture dailies existed before and the result is double/triple caping of home at start
the dailies for pvp can only be a few:
points, kills (numbers no classes :i only see warrs and guards, ooh a thief, lets go chase the thief for all the map), matches, victories, top stats

Rieselle.5079:

They should modify the matchmaking system based on the assumption that most people tend not to switch classes, and most people only have small number of classes they will prefer to play.

.

Nobody ever ever should ask Anet to do something based on assumptions and people with brain tend to switch classes all the time.

Mr Godlike.6098:

Rieselle.5079:

They should modify the matchmaking system based on the assumption that most people tend not to switch classes, and most people only have small number of classes they will prefer to play.

.

Nobody ever ever should ask Anet to do something based on assumptions and people with brain tend to switch classes all the time.

In that case, a net could take a lookbon the number of people who class swap.

Also in case i am with 2 or more thiefs, it is rare that they swap (right niw in bronce, last season always ruby)

Most people don’t want to class swap, even if keeping the class is an obvious disadvantage

Tiefsee.3647:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Rieselle.5079:

They should modify the matchmaking system based on the assumption that most people tend not to switch classes, and most people only have small number of classes they will prefer to play.

.

Nobody ever ever should ask Anet to do something based on assumptions and people with brain tend to switch classes all the time.

In that case, a net could take a lookbon the number of people who class swap.

Also in case i am with 2 or more thiefs, it is rare that they swap (right niw in bronce, last season always ruby)

Most people don’t want to class swap, even if keeping the class is an obvious disadvantage

First of all placement in previous seasons doesn’t matter.

Second I have nothing personally against you dude but you shouldn’t make any assumptions based on bronze quality players.

Mr Godlike.6098:

Tiefsee.3647:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Rieselle.5079:

They should modify the matchmaking system based on the assumption that most people tend not to switch classes, and most people only have small number of classes they will prefer to play.

.

Nobody ever ever should ask Anet to do something based on assumptions and people with brain tend to switch classes all the time.

In that case, a net could take a lookbon the number of people who class swap.

Also in case i am with 2 or more thiefs, it is rare that they swap (right niw in bronce, last season always ruby)

Most people don’t want to class swap, even if keeping the class is an obvious disadvantage

First of all placement in previous seasons doesn’t matter.

Second I have nothing personally against you dude but you shouldn’t make any assumptions based on bronze quality players.

I know – i am in bronce and i just hope it is different in other divisions (the worst part of beeing in bronce, it feels like my skilly lower themselfe)

And i mentioned the previous divisions because of one reason – i know bronce doesn’t matter – but it was the same there…

Tiefsee.3647:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Tiefsee.3647:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Rieselle.5079:

They should modify the matchmaking system based on the assumption that most people tend not to switch classes, and most people only have small number of classes they will prefer to play.

.

Nobody ever ever should ask Anet to do something based on assumptions and people with brain tend to switch classes all the time.

In that case, a net could take a lookbon the number of people who class swap.

Also in case i am with 2 or more thiefs, it is rare that they swap (right niw in bronce, last season always ruby)

Most people don’t want to class swap, even if keeping the class is an obvious disadvantage

First of all placement in previous seasons doesn’t matter.

Second I have nothing personally against you dude but you shouldn’t make any assumptions based on bronze quality players.

I know – i am in bronce and i just hope it is different in other divisions (the worst part of beeing in bronce, it feels like my skilly lower themselfe)

And i mentioned the previous divisions because of one reason – i know bronce doesn’t matter – but it was the same there…

I understand – in previous seasons ranked didn’t do what should do – group people on same tier of skill. Simply put quality of matches did go up while you where climbing.

Mr Godlike.6098:

Tiefsee.3647:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Tiefsee.3647:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Rieselle.5079:

They should modify the matchmaking system based on the assumption that most people tend not to switch classes, and most people only have small number of classes they will prefer to play.

.

Nobody ever ever should ask Anet to do something based on assumptions and people with brain tend to switch classes all the time.

In that case, a net could take a lookbon the number of people who class swap.

Also in case i am with 2 or more thiefs, it is rare that they swap (right niw in bronce, last season always ruby)

Most people don’t want to class swap, even if keeping the class is an obvious disadvantage

First of all placement in previous seasons doesn’t matter.

Second I have nothing personally against you dude but you shouldn’t make any assumptions based on bronze quality players.

I know – i am in bronce and i just hope it is different in other divisions (the worst part of beeing in bronce, it feels like my skilly lower themselfe)

And i mentioned the previous divisions because of one reason – i know bronce doesn’t matter – but it was the same there…

I understand – in previous seasons ranked didn’t do what should do – group people on same tier of skill. Simply put quality of matches did go up while you where climbing.

Yup, and in those seasons i could improve – i had to if i wanted wins – the sad parr, sometimes i feel like the best player in both teams (should never happen) and other times there is someone way above my skill level in bronce (last one was a thief, really good one – but his team lost)

I just hope next season will have an improved skill rating system

megilandil.7506:

sephiroth.4217:

Vykoz.7803:

yeah remove them class dailies, it cant be hard to come up with some other dailies instead, if thats whats needed.

I think it only bring annoyance and people have complained about them for as long as i have played.

New dailies could be:

Capture 3 nodes.
Defend 3 nodes.
Revive 3 team mates.
Kill 3 different classes.
Interacted with class mechanic.
Won a few games.

Something that can help promote good game play is what I was trying for.

for mid-low game this is more terrible than class dailies, the capture dailies existed before and the result is double/triple caping of home at start
the dailies for pvp can only be a few:
points, kills (numbers no classes :i only see warrs and guards, ooh a thief, lets go chase the thief for all the map), matches, victories, top stats

People do that regardless in low skill divisions. You can tell them before match starts that you have home, and for them to go mid, yet still more than half the time at least 1 person follows you to home and tries to double cap it with you

Tiefsee.3647:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Rieselle.5079:

They should modify the matchmaking system based on the assumption that most people tend not to switch classes, and most people only have small number of classes they will prefer to play.

.

Nobody ever ever should ask Anet to do something based on assumptions and people with brain tend to switch classes all the time.

In that case, a net could take a lookbon the number of people who class swap.

Also in case i am with 2 or more thiefs, it is rare that they swap (right niw in bronce, last season always ruby)

Most people don’t want to class swap, even if keeping the class is an obvious disadvantage

easy, high thier players knows how to go in more than a class, mid low players knows one at their level, one two other in what sucks a little and in others they are just like the golem dummies on the mist
yeah the comp is not good, i can swap to x, but my playlevel in x is half my skil in class im now,¿ is beter the comp equilibrium or playing fullskill with a bad comp?

OriOri.8724:

megilandil.7506:

sephiroth.4217:

Vykoz.7803:

yeah remove them class dailies, it cant be hard to come up with some other dailies instead, if thats whats needed.

I think it only bring annoyance and people have complained about them for as long as i have played.

New dailies could be:

Capture 3 nodes.
Defend 3 nodes.
Revive 3 team mates.
Kill 3 different classes.
Interacted with class mechanic.
Won a few games.

Something that can help promote good game play is what I was trying for.

for mid-low game this is more terrible than class dailies, the capture dailies existed before and the result is double/triple caping of home at start
the dailies for pvp can only be a few:
points, kills (numbers no classes :i only see warrs and guards, ooh a thief, lets go chase the thief for all the map), matches, victories, top stats

People do that regardless in low skill divisions. You can tell them before match starts that you have home, and for them to go mid, yet still more than half the time at least 1 person follows you to home and tries to double cap it with you

see a so many times, just leave and go to mid or far, the seconds losed going close , make you an idea if the three on mid can cap it or need your asistance

I would love to see Anet try this and see what happens. Even if it’s just a small improvement, it would be a good one.

As for the daily X winner chevos, I’d rather see that replaced with a single achievement that has you simply win with 2 or more separate profs of your choice. Or better yet, if it’s possible make it 4+ wins, but every win with a different class counts for double as far as the achievement is concerned. People who prefer playing one or two profs exclusively can stick to what they are used to and still finish all their dailies, while people who want to finish the chevo with as few matches as possible can swap classes after every match and finish it faster.