Guild Wars 2

These are the reasons that the next 1-2 months is the best time to implement a split solo/team queue:

1. The population is slightly higher now than it has been over the last several months due to some features people have waited for. As we all know, in order for things like matchmaking and split queues to function, there’s a certain minimum concurrent population.
2. Leaderboards (except for the top ~100 spots) are currently tracking only two things: wins and games you joined solo. Over time, this reality will sink in and the excitement of leaderboards will fade. Thus, quick action making leaderboards more meaningful will help Anet retain playerbase.
3. Hotjoin population has expanded due to people unable to have a full premade 24/7, but also being unwilling to solo queue. It’s not because people actually like hotjoins, although some do. These are the people who would be in a solo queue, if there were one.
4. Currently, every time someone plays in a full team, their MMR goes up by huge margins. Then, when they join solo, the experience is bad for about ten games until their MMR goes back down to pug level. This is leading people to choose only one or the other (team or solo). Even people who don’t care about the rating know matches just won’t be close and fun if they switch back and forth between team matches and pugs. Thus, puggers aren’t finding teams, because playing with a team means they have to lose all their pug matches for a while. Also, people in established teams are just logging off or hotjoining when their team’s not on, since they know they’d face the same teams pugging as they do with their full team. Both groups of people are playing less and making concurrent population even lower than it actually should be.

These are the reasons the time is now. There is a real possibility that this opportunity for Anet won’t exist 6 months from now.

The need for a solo Q cant be overstated. Nobody else of the people I premade with solo Ques. Which reduces there play time to a fraction of there game time.

There is an additional factor in play that is perhaps being ignored as well.

If you like to do both, then when you join your premade it is possible that your experiences as a solo will reduce the MMR of the team to a point that it is difficult to face a competetive match, thus you are penalizing your teammates by solo queing when they aren’t around.

I was originally opposed to splitting the que system because I didn’t think fragmenting the player base was a good idea, but the execution of the system without solo que being separated appears to be inadequate to the point of being useless unless you run with a pre-made far more often than you solo que.

It is necessary and the sooner it is done, the better it will be. That said I don’t know how signifigant a programming challenge this will be and how long is reasonable for it to be “ready”. Certainly a month is more than enough time as long as an appropriate amount of resources can be made available.

Agreed. The split is a necessity, and would be healthy for the expansion of pvp.

I think they are busy working on custom arenas and a few other high priority items. And as far as I can see, there are only a couple of PvP programmers and testers.

Laserbolt.6731:

I think they are busy working on custom arenas and a few other high priority items. And as far as I can see, there are only a couple of PvP programmers and testers.

I’m not saying I disagree (I don’t) or that I know anything about how ANet programs, but to me it seems a lot of the framework has already been laid down by hotjoins (in terms of not allowing parties). It really shouldn’t be that much of a hassle, especially if the code is at a point where all Solo Q would have to do is inherit for hotjoins, particularly, the “play now” feature and lack of party support, and then combine it with the code already in place for joining solo for tournys.
I’m guessing the harder part would be changing the servers that tourny is focused on and dedicating some to team play while others to solo only. That is probably the more extensive part.

Just my 2c on it of course, there is no fact about it.

Why is it this lesson has to be relearned every game?

This is like the 6th game in a row where I’ve come in and solo vs premade is a problem.

At what point in the MMO industry will this be baseline to design, rather than require a years worth of requests, where by the time it’s put in everyone has long since left already?

Minion of Vey.4398:

Why is it this lesson has to be relearned every game?

Not excusing it by any stretch, but if the population in PvP is too low, then having it fragmented leads to long ques which leads to people quitting, thus compounding the low population problem and quickly killing the game. Slow death gives more opportunity for profit than quick death, thus the business decision is easy.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Not excusing it by any stretch, but if the population in PvP is too low, then having it fragmented leads to long ques which leads to people quitting, thus compounding the low population problem and quickly killing the game. Slow death gives more opportunity for profit than quick death, thus the business decision is easy.

Low population isn’t a PvP problem! It is a marketing/sales problem! PvP devs have the responsibility of providing the tools and game balance necessary to facilitate a healthy, competitive PvP community with e-sports potential. That is the extent of their responsibilities. Population issues can be resolved through the appropriate department.

It’s like designing the Chess game and saying, “Oh since not many people play Chess, let’s remove a few of the pieces like the Pawns and the Rooks so the match will go by faster.” NO.

Part of the reason the population is low is because of a lack of features. Its kinda a self fulfilling prophecy at this point. I know several ppl who have quit pvp bc they cant solo Q and don’t want to wait for only premades to play.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Minion of Vey.4398:

Why is it this lesson has to be relearned every game?

Not excusing it by any stretch, but if the population in PvP is too low, then having it fragmented leads to long ques which leads to people quitting, thus compounding the low population problem and quickly killing the game. Slow death gives more opportunity for profit than quick death, thus the business decision is easy.

as it stands now, people will quit if they don’t have a team anyway.

Shar.3402:

as it stands now, people will quit if they don’t have a team anyway.

I dont know abut that
Theres more ppl whining about class imbalances + more game modes rathern that getting beaten by premades

Killthehealersffs.8940:

I dont know abut that
Theres more ppl whining about class imbalances + more game modes rathern that getting beaten by premades

The purpose of separating solo queue from team queue is to have a cleaner, more accurate matchmaking rating. It is to ensure that players truly are being paired with the appropriate teammates and opponents, which facilitates better improvement and growth in skill.

Everything that the PvP devs do should be geared towards fostering the growth of a healthy, competitive PvP scene.

Soloq should be priority 1

As Myrmidian Eudoros have said , its kinda pointess to split the ques atm .
2 months ago , top teams where yelling at the company that paid ques where too long (10-30 min) just to face the same team over and over again .
That why they removed them .
The same will happen if they split them again

They are facing 2 options here:
a) Split the ques
Once again the top teams moaning that there are not enought teams . Top teams will go on hiatus once again .
But they need top teams , so they can check the <<meta>>

Or b) Try to please the Top teams first – keep them ingame , while giving some time to create Specter mode +Custom Arenas .
Also <<force>> new teams to be created (they cant make new outfits-too costly) , neither can offer gems – but create a carrot of the stick with the ingame Leaderborard

Killthehealersffs.8940:

As Myrmidian Eudoros have said , its kinda pointess to split the ques atm .
2 months ago , top teams where yelling at the company that paid ques where too long (10-30 min) just to face the same team over and over again .
That why they removed them .
The same will happen if they split them again

They are facing 2 options here:
a) Split the ques
Once again the top teams moaning that there are not enought teams . Top teams will go on hiatus once again .
But they need top teams , so they can check the <<meta>>

Or b) Try to please the Top teams first – keep them ingame , while giving some time to create Specter mode +Custom Arenas .
Also <<force>> new teams to be created (they cant make new outfits-too costly) , neither can offer gems – but create a carrot of the stick with the ingame Leaderborard

Not true. Top teams dont fight soloqueuers because of the MMR, so the queues will be the same.

Also, soloq would bring more players to the game (lots of new players) and it would make queues shorter.

I am sorry my english sux :P

If they implant a solo/group que , soloplayers wont create or join a team , beacause there is no reward for a 5-man group que (they cant offer gems as rewards , or cool looking gear)
How many teams are playing atm ?
Can top teams (like 2 months ago) fight over and over and over the same ppl ?
Or simply go in a hiatus ?

Killthehealersffs.8940:

I am sorry my english sux :P

If they implant a solo/group que , soloplayers wont create or join a team , beacause there is no reward for a 5-man group que (they cant offer gems as rewards , or cool looking gear)
How many teams are playing atm ?
Can top teams (like 2 months ago) fight over and over and over the same ppl ?
Or simply go in a hiatus ?

Top teams play against the same top teams regardless if there is a split solo/premade queue or a combined queue. That is how competition works. You play against your competitors. If the pool of competition is limited, then that’s not the queue system’s fault – that is a population issue that can be resolved by the marketing/sales department of the game.

The goal of the PvP devs should be to help facilitate the growth of the competitive scene – in other words, forging competitive players from the ocean of casuals. By separating solo queue from team queue, all players will be matched with a more accurate, clean matchmaking rating. As a result, frustration is lessened, and players gradually improve because the playing ground is even. It’s all about developing a healthy learning environment for players.

When the environmental conditions are healthy, competition naturally grows on its own. Players improve in skill due to the accurate matchmaking, and teams are more likely to be formed. More teams equals more competition, and faster queue times at the higher rating tiers. PvP devs only need to concern themselves with game balance and providing the tools to foster the growth of a competitive scene (separated solo/team queue for more accurate matchmaking).

Lets be honest, it’s pretty plain to see. The implementation and support for a solo que is overwhelming. The lack of it, and the system of putting pug players against teams is driving people away from playing tournaments and will only be a negative impact In the long run.

I’m one of those players that has given it away until a split happens. Pugging against teams in a ranking environment is just bad practice and frustrating.

Naysayers can argue that que times will go up, but they will go up regardless if the split does t happen sooner then later anyway as the pug population in tPvP declines and moves back into hotjoin or quits all together.

Both teams and solo players need a competitive outlet Independant of each other. Until that happens its arguable that population can sustain itself.

If only the servers weren’t split NA/EU for pvp atleast. This way you wouldn’t have to be afraid for having long queues when you split solo/team.

solo queue would bring me back

Yes this must happen.

daydream.2938:

Part of the reason the population is low is because of a lack of features. Its kinda a self fulfilling prophecy at this point. I know several ppl who have quit pvp bc they cant solo Q and don’t want to wait for only premades to play.

Correct. The lack of solo Q is the major reason that drives most ppl away from sPvP.
You don’t wait for a high population to implant solo Q. You implant solo Q first to attract a high population into sPvP.

It’s important to note that matchmaking has gotten much better (remember when just getting a 5v5 was a 50/50 chance?) I’d say matchmaking is actually pretty decent right now—premades usually face premades, pugs usually face pugs. It’s just that you can’t switch from team to solo, or solo to team.

The reasons for splitting the queue is not necessarily that it would improve matchmaking, although it would probably do that. The reason is that it would allow people to queue both in teams and solo, as well as the other benefits/opportunities stated.

Regarding population: top teams did complain back when paid tournaments were 8-team. When 2-team paids were introduced they popped instantly. Good structure builds playerbase.

[quote=1829900;Rerroll.9083:]

bleh double post

Honest question: wouldn’t a soloque tourny just be the new 5v5 hotjoin? Since tournaments have become more popular recently, I think we all can say that we’ve seen some…“brave” rank 1-5’s participating. I love new players, but I wouldn’t want tournaments (soloque or otherwise) to become as easy as hotjoin. So what measures would we put in place to prevent this?

Two tables

Join as Party table = JP

Solo Queue table = SQ

JP takes into account the leaderboards MMR.

SQ takes into account the solo queue MMR.

SQ MMR isn’t visible (Devs can manipulate this code as they see fit)

The first time you solo queue, your SQ MMR = JP MMR.
In this case, if you do well with a premade, the first time you solo queue you might get a team full of players of your grouped skill level vs. another team of equal skill (who are also solo queuing), or vs. a premade of similar skill level. Further changes to MMR will be applied to the SQ table, leaving the JP/Leaderboards table intact.

Note that everything works exactly the same as it does now, just that SOLO QUEUE DOESN’T AFFECT YOUR LB MMR, players can actually do solo queue without worrying about their leaderboard rating, players that want to be in the leaderboards will be motivated to form a premade, player base wont be separated, leaderboards will have less drastic jumps in ratings, swapping between premade and solo queue will help you fight with and against players of your skill level (supposing your group skill level = solo queue level), skilled players will be rare among low level players that just solo queue, and happier players in general…

NevirSayDie.6235:

It’s important to note that matchmaking has gotten much better (remember when just getting a 5v5 was a 50/50 chance?) I’d say matchmaking is actually pretty decent right now—premades usually face premades, pugs usually face pugs. It’s just that you can’t switch from team to solo, or solo to team.

The reasons for splitting the queue is not necessarily that it would improve matchmaking, although it would probably do that. The reason is that it would allow people to queue both in teams and solo, as well as the other benefits/opportunities stated.

Regarding population: top teams did complain back when paid tournaments were 8-team. When 2-team paids were introduced they popped instantly. Good structure builds playerbase.

I’m sorry but I have to completely disagree with you. The experience I had last night very nearly has driven me to uninstall the game. I am a diehard solo que’er. Basically always have been. I admit that during certain times (like mid day or early day) the ques are somewhat decent and your chance of winning pug v pug feels about 50%.

But last night starting at 7pm i played 20 consecutive solo q matches against all premades. Multiple times i was 4v5. In all cases the premades were ranked…and i proceeded to lose 18 of the 20 matches… completely falling off the leaderboards. What was most disturbing was that I continued to face r30+ premades and would be given, at least one to two r11 to r19 players. If there is a matchmaking system…it was in no way demonstrated last night.

It is beyond frustrating to play organized comps that have bunkers for two points and roamers/dps to assist…. while you are grouped with guardians that are full dps dieing faster than a full zerker thief. Again, this is not a 1 or 2 matches thing. TWENTY straight matches…

I find time of day to be highly correlated with the frustration.. unfortunately the time of day during the week that this occurs is the only time after my day job that I can actually game. At this point… I am close to fully checking out.

No need to split the queues.

Improve the matchmaking algorithm and have two leader boards, one for team and one for solo’ers.

The team ladder has to fit in a broader picture: pvp seasons or tournaments. And it has to somewhat link to the individual ladder.

Then, with obs mode and custom arenas the pvp will finally get out of beta:p

mursie.3681:

I’m sorry but I have to completely disagree with you. The experience I had last night very nearly has driven me to uninstall the game. I am a diehard solo que’er. Basically always have been. I admit that during certain times (like mid day or early day) the ques are somewhat decent and your chance of winning pug v pug feels about 50%.

But last night starting at 7pm i played 20 consecutive solo q matches against all premades. Multiple times i was 4v5. In all cases the premades were ranked…and i proceeded to lose 18 of the 20 matches… completely falling off the leaderboards. What was most disturbing was that I continued to face r30+ premades and would be given, at least one to two r11 to r19 players. If there is a matchmaking system…it was in no way demonstrated last night.

It is beyond frustrating to play organized comps that have bunkers for two points and roamers/dps to assist…. while you are grouped with guardians that are full dps dieing faster than a full zerker thief. Again, this is not a 1 or 2 matches thing. TWENTY straight matches…

I find time of day to be highly correlated with the frustration.. unfortunately the time of day during the week that this occurs is the only time after my day job that I can actually game. At this point… I am close to fully checking out.

This.

I probably played against 3 pugs while solo queuing all weekend. Premade after fxxxx premade. Needless to say, I dropped off the leaderboards within one afternoon of soloing. In theory, I should now face either pugs or really low ranked premades. But no, I am still getting rank 30+ or 40+ premades.

Now I’d say my frustration tolerance when it comes to pvp is pretty high, but this beyond horrible matchmaking system is pushing it. Every game I go against a premade at least one person will rage in chat, someone logs off, two people will be r1-10. What’s the point? These matches are so imbalanced, I can’t even say suffering through 15 minutes of being farmed helps me to improve in any way whatsoever.

Fix this or I guarantee you will lose all of your soloers within a month.

First match of the evening:
opponent: Full guilded acolytes group. Granted, they are bad… literally they all sat in gate at beginning of match and died to my clusterbombing them from above… but even bads can beat the group i got. I’m really loving this game. I’ll keep posting these hilarious shots as the evening progresses.

because it is just to funny:

mursie.3681:

I’m sorry but I have to completely disagree with you. The experience I had last night very nearly has driven me to uninstall the game. I am a diehard solo que’er. Basically always have been. I admit that during certain times (like mid day or early day) the ques are somewhat decent and your chance of winning pug v pug feels about 50%.

But last night starting at 7pm i played 20 consecutive solo q matches against all premades. Multiple times i was 4v5. In all cases the premades were ranked…and i proceeded to lose 18 of the 20 matches… completely falling off the leaderboards. What was most disturbing was that I continued to face r30+ premades and would be given, at least one to two r11 to r19 players. If there is a matchmaking system…it was in no way demonstrated last night.

It is beyond frustrating to play organized comps that have bunkers for two points and roamers/dps to assist…. while you are grouped with guardians that are full dps dieing faster than a full zerker thief. Again, this is not a 1 or 2 matches thing. TWENTY straight matches…

I find time of day to be highly correlated with the frustration.. unfortunately the time of day during the week that this occurs is the only time after my day job that I can actually game. At this point… I am close to fully checking out.

Hmm, I’m sorry to hear that. I haven’t played much recently because I know I can only do one mode or the other (team or solo). I chose team, which means I only do PvP once a week or so when I’m on and four available people from my team are on as well.

The few times I did try solo queueing, I got some decent matches and even won a couple, but it took several matches of pure pain to get my mmr low enough for that to happen. Come to think of it, that was over a weekend, so there was probably a larger matchmaking pool to pull from so I got “lucky” in that regard.

This only confirms my belief that there is a certain window of time where instituting a solo queue is possible, and that window may close very soon. The last time I played was this past Saturday and tourneys were popping fast and there were a lot of people in hotjoin, so I think maybe there’s still enough of a population bubble to support it. Without fixing the structure of the game soon, though, the small population bubble we’re seeing will fade pretty quick.

solo queue would be great and I would happily join more games!

Kitcat.1739:

Honest question: wouldn’t a soloque tourny just be the new 5v5 hotjoin? Since tournaments have become more popular recently, I think we all can say that we’ve seen some…“brave” rank 1-5’s participating. I love new players, but I wouldn’t want tournaments (soloque or otherwise) to become as easy as hotjoin. So what measures would we put in place to prevent this?

I think it would be great to have a new alternative to hotjoin. New players don’t really improve much from playing hotjoins, so putting them into a ranked match with other people their level would be fantastic. Over time, solo queue strategies would start emerging. People might think about which point they plan to go to at the start of the game, instead of running out to a random place in between points and doing a weird 2v3 of some kind. A few ranks up, someone might volunteer to guard a point, and type in team chat when they are being attacked. None of those things are even remotely possible in a hotjoin.

In other words, a better system would make the learning curve better and thus, player retention would be better.