Warning I will be making a lot of LoL references due to the success of the game as an esport and my personal experience.
A matchmaking system for tournaments is great and all. And I know its been in the works for a while now and you have your own reasons for doing so, but that is not what we need right now.
Right now, in free tournaments, yeah you could say that it’s a problem for new teams to get stomped by top players. But have you considered it from the top players’ point of view? It’s a great dream that these players should be matched against eachother and all, but get real! How long do you think queue times will get?
Take a look at League. When my team was rank 5 on the NA ladder premade queues took upwards of 30 minutes – 1 hour. And that’s just to find Two teams that are similarly skilled. Imagine how long it will take to find 8. And what will happen when 7 teams are queued for paids and one of them is a “top team” while the other 6 are lower ratings? Matchmaking will wait for 2 more low rating teams to throw them in a tournament and leave that one top team in queue for another hour? Not to mention GW2’s playerbase isn’t nearly as big as League’s. This is a huge concern because free tournaments are the only way to play with your team when paids aren’t popping. You know what my League team was doing when queues took more than 1 hour and noone was on to scrim? We didn’t do a 5-man normal queue. We made a smurf ranked team. Not because we wanted to stomp casuals. But because we had fun playing together and it helped tighten our coordination/communication and other necessary teamwork skills. When we wanted to improve our individual skills and compete against other individual players around our level when our teammates aren’t on? There’s a solo queue option for that.
When I heard there will be no solo queue in the works for next month I can’t tell you how upset I was. In this game communication is FAR more important than say, in League. Why? Because in League everyone in solo queue sticks to the metagame since there are no premades. You won’t normally see ad+support top and yorick/plank/etc.. bottom lane like in premade play. When you apply this to GW2, there is no minimap. You have to rely on your team to tell you where the enemy is heading, if they need help or not. If a solo queue group runs into an equally skilled premade group, sorry ANET but they have VERY little chance of winning.
Example: Even among top teams it gets difficult to organize a counter-strat for example if the enemy pulls a 1-0-4 push on you. You can’t leave your guardian on mid point because [with the current meta,] then you’re fighting 3 dps and 1 support vs 2 dps 1 support and 1 tank. While you’re fighting this uneven battle the enemy mesmer is slowly killing your mid guardian. For a solo team it would be nearly impossible to counter something like this due to lack of communication. Not to mention in solo queue its a complete dice-roll if you get a balanced team-comp or not—much like League. Sometimes you get 5ADs or 1 guy who doesn’t want to support so he picks a 2nd rAD Carry. But you know what? It’s ok because we know the enemy team has an equal chance of getting an imbalanced teamcomp since the max queue is duo (2).
A soft-matchmaking system for tournaments is OK. But please, take a look at Paid queue. It pops maybe 4 hours out of the day. There’s just no way to find 8 equally skilled teams at every hour. Finding two teams however doesn’t create this snowball effect of “There’s only 1 team other than us queued right now this queue will take hours. Let’s just go stomp frees instead while waiting for more teams to get on and queue”.
Tl;dr: Say yes to Solo and Premade single-match queues+ladder rankings. Matchmaking for tournaments should come secondary. I really don’t want to see this game die.
Edited by moderator: removed CoC infraction from the thread title
(edited by Moderator)
Please reply and show your support.
Right now, in free tournaments, yeah you could say that it’s a problem for new teams to get stomped by top players.
This is not correct. I am not good at PvP, I am only rank 11 and I went into tournaments Saturday with a complete PuG group more than half the matches we progressed to round 2, we placed 2nd multiple times and won the whole free tourney twice this weekend. That was only a few hours worth of playing but new teams forming should be able to have a lot of success just from playing as a team. There are very few “pro” teams in this game now and the majority of them stay in paids.
sPvP = entering the dead dead phase. Being someone who had over 700 hours played on this game and only having countless level 2’s as my main, I’ve put quite a lot of time into sPvP. This past week I leveled up an 80 with my entire PvP guild, because we knew this PvP was not going to be able to last… I understand that we are going for an esport model here, but in all honestly, take a step back. You are losing casual players due to bugs and lack of content, and casual players are going to be what helps start an esport community (I understand the competitive players help but they are like the 5%). From a competitive players view, I’d be much happier with the current PvP system that’s in place if there was actually an incentive to being there. Nothing is making a PvEer come to sPvP over WvW. I’m not QQing because this game just came out and not everything has got balanced, etc, but when is something going to be done to reel in PvPers..
Jumper is 100% correct.
MMR Doesn’t work when you have no population. You just end up with even longer queues, or have the present situation which puts noobs against vets and has resulted in a mass exodus of players.
Also, the fact that it takes 40 players and 45 minutes which include long downtimes between matches just to play a basic competitve match just makes the problem even worse.
Please just add single competitive matches like in GW1 and every other pvp game out there and give people the game they want.
Stop trying to force the poker tournament style monetization scheme on us. It has failed and killed the population. Just use it for special events and the rest of the time let people have a system that is actually playable.
I dont mean to be insulting, but how was this not forseen? You dont need a gaming degree or much any other to see this was not the right path to take, and that OTHER methods were working really well (like for league of legends).
i dont know if the game ran out of a budget and pushed a launch….but, look at the other mmos that presented their game before it was in an acceptable state….ya they have like 1-2 servers up. This IS where things are going if necessary actions arent taken. I’m assuming lack of resources may be the issue and if thats true….well, assuming i’m not knee deep in some game i might take a look at this game in a few months….but if there arent enough die hard players still logging on, it’ll be like when i logged back into AoC after their big expantion…it was a dead zone, so despite the neat fixes and features, i wasnt gonna waste my time. MMO’s generally get one shot…i’m not sure if this one will be any different.
they have to get rid of the tournament system imo
Yes, just ditch the tournaments when the rankings come out.
And add solo ranked ladder. All solo queue, only. No tournament garbage, just 10 players getting sorted into a one-off ranked game, where your personal ranking is based on W/L.
You can do whatever else you want, but this game’s communtity is way too small for me to find a team that wants to plays as competitively as I do for just a few hours a night. Players are either super casual or somehow have eight hours a day to dedicate to video games. I do not. This is a huge entry barrier issue. If you actually want players coming back and potentially participating in team competition down the road, solo ladders has to be priority one.
Call me when it’s ready.
Definitely agree. The current system just is not conducive to allowing players to play at their own leisure. Its basically schedule with a team when you’ll be on during prime hours and ignore the game for the rest of the time. Queue times are just too long and adding matchmaking would make it worse when using a tournament system. This system fits for daily/monthly tournaments however shouldn’t be the go to mode.
There is also very little progression that can be made when your team isn’t on.
Personally I think they can do a better job at helping allies tell what is happening across the map without the need to directly communicate as this is one of the larger barriers to solo play. The idea of matching solo/premade teams based on a combined ranking wouldn’t work because the game inherently favors team play much more. Compared to other games this difference is much higher because all the information isn’t available to a single player.
I just don’t think paids/frees are going to be accomplishing what Anet intends. As much as it might theoretically be a small increase in income, I see it going the other way where it just discourages players from returning to the game and purchasing expansions. The population won’t be there for 6/8 teams to lose the majority of their tickets each tournament. We see a temporary influx in teams each month due to the monthly achievement but it really dies down as the month goes on which is not good. Its a self-cannibalizing system that doesn’t truly represent skill.
@Jumper
Yep you definitely have a point there. Match making systems will only work the moment you actually have a larger player base. Now the problem is how do you make the player base bigger through advertisements and etc…
A better fix than ditching the tournament system is ditching the hotjoins. This would allow them to have a less segregated player base so you can split group ques and solo ques without destroying your pvp downtime.
Guild Wars 1 has been around for 7 years and it was a very popular PvP game years after its release and it was lacking a lot of features for a long time in the beginning. The pvp in Guild Wars 2 is not going to become extinct like so many people seem to think is happening.
While I do think ArenaNet could learn a lot from Riot Games because they have a successful e-sport the games are completely different and LoL has been around for over 3 years now while GW2 has only been out 3 months comparing features in either game is not a good comparison.
I just don’t think paids/frees are going to be accomplishing what Anet intends. As much as it might theoretically be a small increase in income, I see it going the other way where it just discourages players from returning to the game and purchasing expansions. The population won’t be there for 6/8 teams to lose the majority of their tickets each tournament…Its a self-cannibalizing system that doesn’t truly represent skill.
Very well said.
Punishing casual players by charging them to be farmed by a few hardcore teams has got to be one of the worst ideas ever implemented in competitive gaming.
Its how a game sells 2 million copies with promises of e-sport potential, yet only has like a hundred or so active competitive players 3 months in.
i dont care how they do it. i only see 2 ways that will work.
1. make a solo q like swtor has and randomize the maps.
2. give us an advanced option so teams can start practicing all day not just in paid
number 1 will make the main teams happy but wont make a lot of new teams come together they will stay in frees and pug so main teams will play main teams.
number 2 will make a lot of teams come together and get good then we would have more quality teams. but it would take a while so a lot of main teams wont like it cause they want something for them now.
either way like jumper said waiting 30 min to an hour is not ok. and neither is waiting 2-4 months for one of these to happen
Agree with OP.
My view is pretty much identical to most others in this thread – leave the tournament system for special events (monthly/seasonal/yearly stuff) and have single map matches between two teams or best of 3 matches between two teams as the standard, day to day style of play.
Trying to match 8 teams together is going to result in horrible queue times for pretty much everybody.
Good points jumper, here’s a long post I made on guru responding to a couple people who don’t think matchmaking and ratings would help the game:
I completely disagree with your guys opinion on the effects of adding ratings and matchmaking. Yes, if they simply added it to the current tournament system it wouldn’t do anything but create longer queues. However, if they were to implement a single match system for solo queuers and one for groups I think there would be a noticeable improvement in both the quality of matches being played and the number of matches being played.
Solo players have currently two options for SPvP, hot joins and joining free tournaments solo. Hotjoins do not play anything like a tournament match and does not help a player learn anything but the most basics features of combat. In the free tournaments the solo player is placed with random players and often faces a premade team which has a huge advantage simply due to the value of communication and cooridination in this game. This setting is also not very conducive to getting better at the game but at least the vast majority of the players in these pug groups are trying to play the game “correctly” compared to hotjoins. Even though solo queuers in free tournaments know they will lose in the first couple of rounds the vast majority of the time they still find it much more enjoyable than hotjoins.
I feel that if you segregated solo/duo players from teams you would provide a much better avenue for players to improve and hopefully make new friends which form into new teams. Solo players tend to play in more sporadic intervals and the single match system would accomodate their time constraints much better than the tournaments which can have such a wide variation in their duration.
I think ArenaNet should copy the system used by smite in which matches are launched in time intervals set to coincide with the length of matches in order to faciliate better matchmaking. For those unaware of the system, Smite, which is a MOBA style game has a normal match length of 30-45mins and they have ranked queues which occur on the hour. Since matches are much shorter in GW2 the interval would be lowered down, while I haven’t looked super closely at the average match length, I know the maximum is 15minutes, so an interval of around 10-15minutes might be ideal.
Teams emerge from players enjoying the game, striving to play better and wanting to play at a higher level, this becomes a natural evolution when you provide a solid pathway for players to progress and become interested in playing at a higher level, which I do not think the current system allows nor would it be alleviated by launching custom servers earlier. The current system has produced an extremely stratified system in which most players fall on the horrendously bad spectrum with a small group of players that are far far beyond most of their competition with very few middling teams.
The newly formed teams need to be playing one another, and not just one match out of a whole days worth of tournament queues in which they face countless pug teams and a few teams which are far beyond their level of play. This is something Jacobin and many others have touched on but there needs to be a sense of progression for players and I think individual skill progression would be much more meaningful and rewarding with a rating system and a segregated queueing system.
100% agreed, tournies are great but it doesn’t work for a sustained system, we need solo q and premade matches(bo3 perhaps).
Btw your flame armor looks sick.
A better fix than ditching the tournament system is ditching the hotjoins. This would allow them to have a less segregated player base so you can split group ques and solo ques without destroying your pvp downtime.
+1. Instead of hotjoin —> free tourney —> paid tourney, what if it was solo match —> party match —> paid tourney?
Being able to pop in and out of a PvP match fit with Anet’s original vision for the game (you can do anything you want and leave anytime you want). But it’s just not enjoyable. The only reason hotjoin servers are still populated is 1) casual PvPers feel intimidated by tournaments, or don’t even know they can join them, and 2) tournament players pop into hotjoin for a couple minutes between matches. I think that if Anet removed hotjoin with another option for jumping into a short game as a solo player, an option where
rank ones aren’t playing against rank 50s,
everyone joined the game at the beginning of the match,
players don’t switch teams,
players aren’t punished for playing well—
PvP population would skyrocket.
I sure hope that I am 100% incorrect, but I believe this single decision may be the one that ultimately cripples TPVP. You are punishing players who enjoy playing games as a single player while being part of a team. I play ridiculous amounts of PvP in games and I’ve almost always done so as a solo queuer (one major exception is in WoW where I arena’d in 2v2 for every season). I’ve had a blast doing so and I’ve done very well for myself in other games. In this game, I am forced to either meet 4-6 people and play on a schedule with them or get rolled. That is a joke.
The fact that the solo-queue option isn’t in this game isn’t even what’s the problem, the fact that it is completely being ignored and brushed aside as “not something were considering at this time” is outrageous. I hate to bring up SWG but gosh darn it feels similar.
You have people begging in unison for a few features. There is almost no resistance from the community on these specific aspects. They are then told, “nope, we got it figured out, sit back and wait while we iron out this wolf finisher animation, I think that’s what is needed right now”
Edit: am I the only one that when discussing things like this start to actually get mad? Like umadbro mad. Watching something so critical be ignored for God knows why is beyond frustrating. I need to take a break from posting, games are about fun and I am finding myself getting angry. breathe….breathe…
(edited by felivear.1536)
Just chiming in to show my support for this thread and the ideas presented so far. The time it takes to get into these games is not conducive to fun, and ultimately frustrates the players to the point of them going off and doing other things.
Duo queue is some of the most fun to be had in this game. Kinda sucks when you just run into a r35+ full premade and know you stand almost no chance.
Warning I will be making a lot of LoL references due to the success of the game as an esport and my personal experience.
A matchmaking system for tournaments is great and all. And I know its been in the works for a while now and you have your own reasons for doing so, but that is not what we need right now.
Right now, in free tournaments, yeah you could say that it’s a problem for new teams to get stomped by top players. But have you considered it from the top players’ point of view? It’s a great dream that these players should be matched against eachother and all, but get real! How long do you think queue times will get?
Take a look at League. When my team was rank 5 on the NA ladder premade queues took upwards of 30 minutes – 1 hour. And that’s just to find Two teams that are similarly skilled. Imagine how long it will take to find 8. And what will happen when 7 teams are queued for paids and one of them is a “top team” while the other 6 are lower ratings? Matchmaking will wait for 2 more low rating teams to throw them in a tournament and leave that one top team in queue for another hour? Not to mention GW2’s playerbase isn’t nearly as big as League’s. This is a huge concern because free tournaments are the only way to play with your team when paids aren’t popping. You know what my League team was doing when queues took more than 1 hour and noone was on to scrim? We didn’t do a 5-man normal queue. We made a smurf ranked team. Not because we wanted to stomp casuals. But because we had fun playing together and it helped tighten our coordination/communication and other necessary teamwork skills. When we wanted to improve our individual skills and compete against other individual players around our level when our teammates aren’t on? There’s a solo queue option for that.
When I heard there will be no solo queue in the works for next month I can’t tell you how upset I was. In this game communication is FAR more important than say, in League. Why? Because in League everyone in solo queue sticks to the metagame since there are no premades. You won’t normally see ad+support top and yorick/plank/etc.. bottom lane like in premade play. When you apply this to GW2, there is no minimap. You have to rely on your team to tell you where the enemy is heading, if they need help or not. If a solo queue group runs into an equally skilled premade group, sorry ANET but they have VERY little chance of winning.
Example: Even among top teams it gets difficult to organize a counter-strat for example if the enemy pulls a 1-0-4 push on you. You can’t leave your guardian on mid point because [with the current meta,] then you’re fighting 3 dps and 1 support vs 2 dps 1 support and 1 tank. While you’re fighting this uneven battle the enemy mesmer is slowly killing your mid guardian. For a solo team it would be nearly impossible to counter something like this due to lack of communication. Not to mention in solo queue its a complete dice-roll if you get a balanced team-comp or not—much like League. Sometimes you get 5ADs or 1 guy who doesn’t want to support so he picks a 2nd rAD Carry. But you know what? It’s ok because we know the enemy team has an equal chance of getting an imbalanced teamcomp since the max queue is duo (2).A soft-matchmaking system for tournaments is OK. But please, take a look at Paid queue. It pops maybe 4 hours out of the day. There’s just no way to find 8 equally skilled teams at every hour. Finding two teams however doesn’t create this snowball effect of “There’s only 1 team other than us queued right now this queue will take hours. Let’s just go stomp frees instead while waiting for more teams to get on and queue”.
Tl;dr: Say yes to Solo and Premade single-match queues+ladder rankings. Matchmaking for tournaments should come secondary. I really don’t want to see this game die.
Edited by moderator: removed CoC infraction from the thread title
I support you 100% on that, it’s the main reason why I tried to throw the question of the ladder-like type of queue out there. Unfortunately, it seems it won’t happen soon… but they have plans at least!
Warning I will be making a lot of LoL references due to the success of the game as an esport and my personal experience.
A matchmaking system for tournaments is great and all. And I know its been in the works for a while now and you have your own reasons for doing so, but that is not what we need right now.
Right now, in free tournaments, yeah you could say that it’s a problem for new teams to get stomped by top players. But have you considered it from the top players’ point of view? It’s a great dream that these players should be matched against eachother and all, but get real! How long do you think queue times will get?
Take a look at League. When my team was rank 5 on the NA ladder premade queues took upwards of 30 minutes – 1 hour. And that’s just to find Two teams that are similarly skilled. Imagine how long it will take to find 8. And what will happen when 7 teams are queued for paids and one of them is a “top team” while the other 6 are lower ratings? Matchmaking will wait for 2 more low rating teams to throw them in a tournament and leave that one top team in queue for another hour? Not to mention GW2’s playerbase isn’t nearly as big as League’s. This is a huge concern because free tournaments are the only way to play with your team when paids aren’t popping. You know what my League team was doing when queues took more than 1 hour and noone was on to scrim? We didn’t do a 5-man normal queue. We made a smurf ranked team. Not because we wanted to stomp casuals. But because we had fun playing together and it helped tighten our coordination/communication and other necessary teamwork skills. When we wanted to improve our individual skills and compete against other individual players around our level when our teammates aren’t on? There’s a solo queue option for that.
When I heard there will be no solo queue in the works for next month I can’t tell you how upset I was. In this game communication is FAR more important than say, in League. Why? Because in League everyone in solo queue sticks to the metagame since there are no premades. You won’t normally see ad+support top and yorick/plank/etc.. bottom lane like in premade play. When you apply this to GW2, there is no minimap. You have to rely on your team to tell you where the enemy is heading, if they need help or not. If a solo queue group runs into an equally skilled premade group, sorry ANET but they have VERY little chance of winning.
Example: Even among top teams it gets difficult to organize a counter-strat for example if the enemy pulls a 1-0-4 push on you. You can’t leave your guardian on mid point because [with the current meta,] then you’re fighting 3 dps and 1 support vs 2 dps 1 support and 1 tank. While you’re fighting this uneven battle the enemy mesmer is slowly killing your mid guardian. For a solo team it would be nearly impossible to counter something like this due to lack of communication. Not to mention in solo queue its a complete dice-roll if you get a balanced team-comp or not—much like League. Sometimes you get 5ADs or 1 guy who doesn’t want to support so he picks a 2nd rAD Carry. But you know what? It’s ok because we know the enemy team has an equal chance of getting an imbalanced teamcomp since the max queue is duo (2).A soft-matchmaking system for tournaments is OK. But please, take a look at Paid queue. It pops maybe 4 hours out of the day. There’s just no way to find 8 equally skilled teams at every hour. Finding two teams however doesn’t create this snowball effect of “There’s only 1 team other than us queued right now this queue will take hours. Let’s just go stomp frees instead while waiting for more teams to get on and queue”.
Tl;dr: Say yes to Solo and Premade single-match queues+ladder rankings. Matchmaking for tournaments should come secondary. I really don’t want to see this game die.
Edited by moderator: removed CoC infraction from the thread title
I support you 100% on that, it’s the main reason why I tried to throw the question of the ladder-like type of queue out there. Unfortunately, it seems it won’t happen soon… but they have plans at least!
supporting this anet please take 5 min to look at this im pretty sure not only us but other top players are concerned about this
I support a change to the current model as well ,I give props to Lorienda for such a well thought out system. Here’s to hoping that they at least consider a change in this direction.
It also feels kittening bad when your premade that’s in the rank 35-45s comes up vs a full pug of rank 10s in frees. Like, the other team has no chance at all.
Then you try paids, if it pops and get stomped in 1st map by some of the few real name teams out there who are naturally in queue, because if they ever want to get a paid done, they’ll be there when they pop. There’s just this massive gaping hole, enormous skill/coordination difference between teams that play the paids and teams that try every now and then and head back to frees and then the pug teams.
I guess biggest reason for all this is that the population for pvp is just so small and that’s down to Anet and their design decisions and actions.
Very valid concerns indeed, but there are multiple solutions to this problem:
- Make Matchmaking intelligently (or make an option in which players could decide themselves) decide between accuracy and duration of the search-time. In HoN (much better game than LoL btw. but lets not get into that one ^^) there was even an option in queuing where you could slide a bar around between duration and accuracy.
- By implementing an ELO-system, which is pretty standard in all competetive games, you could also easily mitigate the effect of unmatched teams (ELO-wise) by giving the winning team less points if they stomp a noob-team and the noob-team would get less points deducted. This way, even unmatched teams fighting would have a certain impact, because the better team had much more to loose and the lesser team a lot to gain.
- global queuing: GW1 had it, why not GW2? Yes, there will probably be lag-issues, but it’s better than not finding any games.
- Player-density: By adding new features like ranking-system and better eSports-features, the player-base will most likely begin to raise and maybe stabilize. GW2 has been in a natural decline in players, which shouldn’t shock anyone, but if they bring new features, ppl will most likely return.
- Changes to the Tournament-System: Yes, this tournament-style Matchmaking has several advantages, but maybe it could be beneficial to “revert” back to simple 1 team VS another team. Matchmaking could be quicker if you’d just need 2 teams instead of 8 and with ELO-system in place, you could distribute rewards according to the strength of your opposing team in relation to yours, not by how far you’ve gotten into the tournament.
Thx for the tread jumper…
(btw… how the kitten can you play so much :-? … you’re r53 ?
no job/school ?)
@power -> HON OVER LOL ^^ your right bro
back to topic:
ANET PLSSSSS, stop making new “crazy, cool” things.. just copy the good old things :-/
Take the GW1, LOL, HON, DOTA2, SC2 models and take the best ones !!!
- get rid of 8 teams tornament -> implement Gw1 daily, /monthly torne (COPY YOUR GAME….)
- make solo que possible ! (COPY LOL style – 2 different ques, for teams and SOLO)
- make ELO /MMR system based on SC2 platform
(with leagues:
bronze league -> getting bronze chest after win
.. siler, gold league -> silver . gold chest reward
- diamand – master, grandmaster league -> your getting PAID rewards !
---> EPIC SYSTEM ! just COPY IT)
- Copy HON observer ( GOD ITS SO AWESOME ! the observer getting all the stuff to watch the game.. and its fun to watch !)
- copy costemtik shop from DOTA 2 (they have so much fun, and good stuff there, you can make your hero/champion/avatar pretty much unique – and the gamedesigner getting some nice cash for it :-) – Win/Win situation)
… and more . just start coping they great models out there.. starting with your OWN -> GW 1 !
How would a solo ladder ranking work? It seems to me it would be mostly luck that wins the game for you or not. You have to hope that you not only get a good comp, but also good players. GW2 was designed so that one player couldn’t go be a hero and win games singlehandedly. So when you solo queue you have to rely on your team. How could solo ranking even mean much in this case? Wouldn’t it just show how lucky you are?
If the solo ladders are based on how many points you get in a game, that is even worse, because any idiot can just roam around dpsing already downed players and get full points for killing them. Players will begin to find every way possible to increase their ranking even if it screws over the rest of their team (like in hot join, lol@entire teams capping a point together). Basically the individual players on a team will be in competition with each other.
But again, I don’t even know if it would work either of these ways. Just a thought.
Solo ladder could just be based on W/L. Yes, there is a luck element regarding comp and who you end up with on your team, but that luck element is shared by every other solo-queuer. Initially, your ranking would be fairly volatile because of the luck element, but over a sufficiently large sample size the confidence in your ranking will increase, and your contribution to winning can be isolated as a variable, which is what your ranking ultimately would be based upon.
Single map ladder is really what we need. Like everyone else said…
How would a solo ladder ranking work? It seems to me it would be mostly luck that wins the game for you or not. You have to hope that you not only get a good comp, but also good players. GW2 was designed so that one player couldn’t go be a hero and win games singlehandedly. So when you solo queue you have to rely on your team. How could solo ranking even mean much in this case? Wouldn’t it just show how lucky you are?
If the solo ladders are based on how many points you get in a game, that is even worse, because any idiot can just roam around dpsing already downed players and get full points for killing them. Players will begin to find every way possible to increase their ranking even if it screws over the rest of their team (like in hot join, lol@entire teams capping a point together). Basically the individual players on a team will be in competition with each other.
But again, I don’t even know if it would work either of these ways. Just a thought.
I’m kind of surprised a person as solid as you are in gameplay lacks the theorycraft capability to conceive an effective system. Yes in any one particular match the teammates you end up with will have a large effect on the outcome but over enough games the only constant is your presence on the team. Company issues might be an issue in the lower skill level brackets but most people interested at playing at a competitive level are capable of playing many classes.
Yes a system which rewarded you based on glory would be bad but I don’t think anyone would ever suggest such a ludicrous system. They are working on a new state system as well which will provide better measurements of play. The game smite uses an elope system where if you perform signicantly worse than your team you gain less elope in a win and lose more during a loss. Please don’t act like viable systems can’t be implemented only because you can not envision one on your own.
I typed this on my phone so there are some weird autocorrects but it should be reasonable to read
(edited by Seether.7285)
How would a solo ladder ranking work? It seems to me it would be mostly luck that wins the game for you or not. You have to hope that you not only get a good comp, but also good players. GW2 was designed so that one player couldn’t go be a hero and win games singlehandedly. So when you solo queue you have to rely on your team. How could solo ranking even mean much in this case? Wouldn’t it just show how lucky you are?
If the solo ladders are based on how many points you get in a game, that is even worse, because any idiot can just roam around dpsing already downed players and get full points for killing them. Players will begin to find every way possible to increase their ranking even if it screws over the rest of their team (like in hot join, lol@entire teams capping a point together). Basically the individual players on a team will be in competition with each other.
But again, I don’t even know if it would work either of these ways. Just a thought.
I’m kind of surprised a person as solid as you are in gameplay lacks the theorycraft capability to conceive an effective system. Yes in any one particular match the teammates you end up with will have a large effect on the outcome but over enough games the only constant is your presence on the team. Company issues might be an issue in the lower skill level brackets but most people interested at playing at a competitive level are capable of playing many classes.
Yes a system which rewarded you based on glory would be bad but I don’t think anyone would ever suggest such a ludicrous system. They are working on a new state system as well which will provide better measurements of play. The game smite uses an elope system where if you perform signicantly worse than your team you gain less elope in a win and lose more during a loss. Please don’t act like viable systems can’t be implemented only because you can not envision one on your own.
I typed this on my phone so there are some weird autocorrects but it should be reasonable to read
I’m going to ignore the random insults and say that I agree that rankings based on wins would work over a period of time since the accuracy of the rankings is dependent on time.
The second situation is something I’m worried about being put in the game because something as ludicrous as it is currently in place: the QP ladder. Who knows what Anet will do next?
I’m sorry for the minor insult but it is very frustrating when a poster is unable to conceive a viable system on their own they believe a viable system is not possible. It happens all the times on these forums and your post happened to be the one that I decided to call out. Nothing personal.
Looks like people have forgotten this thread existed and moved the discussion to the original SotG topic. >>;
Please reply and show your support.
i agree that getting rid of kitten free tournaments is necessary and the need for a rated single-only-queue is so obvious that the ongoing ignorance of Jon & the likes is as usual astonishing
yet only because LoL’s matchmaking system is kitten doesn’t mean GW2’s has to be
Ladder based on the skill rather than grind (number of games played (or ‘wins’ collected)) is easy to make. Look at how chess players are ranked. Generally speaking: you progress by beating those ranked higher than you and you do not progress (or at least not by much) by beating those ranked lower than you (but you still have to fight such games to keep your current ranking). Players will not be able to progress by grinding noobs/newbs no matter how much they do so.
New guys who have skill will progress up fast.
To deal with inactivity just put in automatic decay in ranks if player does not play for some time (allow for reasonable amount of time without any decay (let us say few days or a week) and then start decaying them at accelerated rate if they do not play (this is to prevent someone who is ranked first to just stop playing and stay ranked high).
Yes, a ladder/rating system is nice for top tier players, but honestly I think the most important thing about it is helping lower tier players get into the game more by playing people around their own skill level.
imo it’s the lower tier players that are the most important if you want to see this game succeed. I think custom arenas are more important for top tier teams, anyway. But that won’t matter if there aren’t lots of lower tier teams out there trying that are having fun trying to get better.
Yes, a ladder/rating system is nice for top tier players, but honestly I think the most important thing about it is helping lower tier players get into the game more by playing people around their own skill level.
imo it’s the lower tier players that are the most important if you want to see this game succeed. I think custom arenas are more important for top tier teams, anyway. But that won’t matter if there aren’t lots of lower tier teams out there trying that are having fun trying to get better.
This right here. No one wants to be top tier in a game no one cares about, and getting people to care about the game involves giving players at all levels an enjoyable experience,
+1 to the two people above me.
Right now, in free tournaments, yeah you could say that it’s a problem for new teams to get stomped by top players.
This is not correct. I am not good at PvP, I am only rank 11 and I went into tournaments Saturday with a complete PuG group more than half the matches we progressed to round 2, we placed 2nd multiple times and won the whole free tourney twice this weekend. That was only a few hours worth of playing but new teams forming should be able to have a lot of success just from playing as a team. There are very few “pro” teams in this game now and the majority of them stay in paids.
In my guild of 5 players, we always win free tournies, we rofl stomp teams like yours easily. You are rank 11 meaning you have less than a total of 150 ish games. When you get 500 games plus maybe you can make a comment that is well-informed.
Right now, in free tournaments, yeah you could say that it’s a problem for new teams to get stomped by top players.
This is not correct. I am not good at PvP, I am only rank 11 and I went into tournaments Saturday with a complete PuG group more than half the matches we progressed to round 2, we placed 2nd multiple times and won the whole free tourney twice this weekend. That was only a few hours worth of playing but new teams forming should be able to have a lot of success just from playing as a team. There are very few “pro” teams in this game now and the majority of them stay in paids.
In my guild of 5 players, we always win free tournies, we rofl stomp teams like yours easily. You are rank 11 meaning you have less than a total of 150 ish games. When you get 500 games plus maybe you can make a comment that is well-informed.
Be nice. A lot of players can say the same thing about “rofl stomping” you. Relax.
That was one of the worst posts I have read and proves everything I have had to say about the joke that is so called ‘top’ players in this game.
I bet most the top players are nothing more then farmers that would be nothing if games were rated. WoW arena did it right good teams climbed up by facing other good teams and beating them. New players/ pve players making the transition to PvP faced others at their skill level and that keep a fresh growing population.
People that dont want rated matches deep down know they are not good because they have never been top at other rated games….. they are right and could not handle a non farming based system.
Yes, a ladder/rating system is nice for top tier players, but honestly I think the most important thing about it is helping lower tier players get into the game more by playing people around their own skill level.
imo it’s the lower tier players that are the most important if you want to see this game succeed. I think custom arenas are more important for top tier teams, anyway. But that won’t matter if there aren’t lots of lower tier teams out there trying that are having fun trying to get better.
Actually ladder is exactly there so that people of similar skill play each other. Good ladder system sorts people out. You cannot ‘challenge’ people who are too high above you. System should make you play one game with guy ranked ‘slightly’ above you and then one ‘slightly’ below you and so on. So you have to beat the guy below you to keep your rank (and give him the chance to progress) and then you play one game to ‘challenge’ guy above you to take his spot. This system very quickly sorts people out.
In short span of time, low skill people will be on the bottom of the ladder where they will oscillate a bit but not be able to break into mid tier. Mid skill people will be in the middle where again they will oscillate but not be able to break into top tier (until they improve). And top skill people will be at the top where they will fight each other and oscillate slightly.
—snip—
I think you posted in the wrong topic.
But thanks for the bump anyways, I guess.
(edited by Jumper.9482)
tournaments should be removed and only for big events a la WoW seasonal tournaments where qualifying teams get put in round robin pools and then ranked off that for the bracketing of the actual tourney.
Also hot join SUCKS. If Anet wants to build this game they need to make single map 5v5 matches for casuals where quitters get 30+ min deserter debuff. This is not a kittening FPS where one pro player can make-up for a 5v3 team imbalance with a couple headshots. So stop trying to make it play like one.
(edited by Sprawl.3891)
No I posted in the right place, I think you are average at best and know if a true rated system was done you would be average ranked.
I know the type seen it happen in WoW when rated Arenas came out.
In a farm based system people with a ton of time climb and mistake it for skill, rated systems remove all doubt about what teams are good and what teams/players are not.
No I posted in the right place, I think you are average at best and know if a true rated system was done you would be average ranked.
I know the type seen it happen in WoW when rated Arenas came out.
In a farm based system people with a ton of time climb and mistake it for skill, rated systems remove all doubt about what teams are good and what teams/players are not.
Well if you posted in the right place you should concern yourself less with attacking people and more on your comprehension of written material. Since you are talking about a group of people who don’t want a rated matches in a thread which contains only people in favor of a rated matches….
No one in this thread is advocating a farm based system and I think its apparent that everyone knows farm based systems are a joke and that’s why most people consider the QP leader board relatively meaningless.
^
I’m indirectly responsible on why this guy is salty. Sorry man.
In regards to LoL, one of the things that kept me playing and spending money for years was the fact that there was something to look forward to. New champions are hyped up, testing publicly, and added. Anot, it’s hard to get psyched up for ’event’s, and aesthetic changes to the mist when I’m still contemplating whether or not there is any reason for me to play spvp. Forums are always filled with doom and gloom, but the only way I can see myself dedicating time/money to GW2 is if we get our heads out of the "balance barrel’’ and start adding new and useful content such as: new professions, drastic changes to rewards, and game modes. It’s a lot to ask from a company that doesn’t charge a monthly fee, but you now what? Pvp needs a lot to bring people back and keep them playing.
this is what im scared of too… combination of quite small player base, rating and 40 players to one “game” doesnt seems to be the right way to go… i would really like to hear something about this from ANet… if they will be silent until they will be done, it can ruin the last chance of SPVP to wake up…
Yes, a ladder/rating system is nice for top tier players, but honestly I think the most important thing about it is helping lower tier players get into the game more by playing people around their own skill level.
imo it’s the lower tier players that are the most important if you want to see this game succeed. I think custom arenas are more important for top tier teams, anyway. But that won’t matter if there aren’t lots of lower tier teams out there trying that are having fun trying to get better.
Agreed. Speaking as a lower tier player, Hot Join really turned me off spvp. If you are interested in objective-based pvp, it is really an awful experience. I’m not sure what the fix is (point incentive maybe, less on killing more on holding and capping points, etc.) but it needs to happen soon.
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