Guild Wars 2

1) Reduce the winning+loosing reward (havent played since the december) to 5 silver for + 5 silver for loose
2) Pushing ‘’Play Now’’ , awards you +10 silver if you win-7 if you loose + progress you title bar (ppl are actually aim to unlock the tittles faster with the Match Wins Achiv ) .
It has 10 min cd (so ppl wont quit and que up for an other) or is refresh if you stay on the match till the end . If you use auto-balance as the other ppl have said you loose the benefits (extra silver + title progression)
3) If most ppl start using the ‘’Play Now’’ > change it to an unofficial Unranked mode with 3-5 min que time
4) Or simple listen to the ideas of Deimos Tel Arin
5) Casuals will try to improve the lives of casuals . Everyone else should gives ideas at the old ggz to improve their ’’league’’ (their home)

Looking at the title of the thread made me think this was some troll mad at people for spectating. Now that I’ve read a bit, this is actually one of my bigger problems.

Recently with the 5v5 matches 1 player down really hurts the playing experience. Honestly I don’t mind a 4v5 match every so often, but most games I play turn into this. I’m not mad at the system, just the people, however I do think changing the system could help deal with the people…

I like having the ability to choose your team at the beginning to play with friends and I like being able to spectate, but perhaps if the spectators weren’t allowed to join and the players couldn’t swap teams, we wouldn’t have so many problems.

Aza.2105:

Evan Lesh.3295:

At what point are you seeing players join teams from spectator mode? Rewards are based on time played on a team, so are people forgoing partial rewards to be on the winning team?

This is not the problem.

The problem is players not wanting to lose. So they switch teams or try..not matter what the rewards are. Here is a typical example of what goes on in hotjoin:

• Everyone is new to the server, match starts and its 5v5

• In the first 2mins blue obliterates red on center point then proceed to take other points

• Two people from red quit, one goes to spectator

• Auto balance happens and some one from blue goes to red, then the guy who quit red goes to blue

• The original blue player doesn’t like being switched so he goes to spectator, its 3v5 again. Auto balance happens and another blue is forced to go to red. The original blue player returns to his team. The match is still 4v5

• Someone new joins the server and finally red team has a 5th man.

• After losing once to 3 people ganging up on him, he leaves the server. Its 4v5 again

• Match finally ends with the score of 500 to 90

This is how the typical hotjoin game plays these days. I see a lot of people say GG after the match, I’m guessing 4v5 is a good game in their eyes since 4v5 is now the standard match. Its sad because no matter what server you go to it always ends up happening.

Thank you for this ~

I can personally attest that this (and/or close variations that have the same result) is the vast majority of games since spectate came to be.

It is so sad that one of the coolest parts of the pvp game has sunk it into the gutter. It is frustrating that no one who can help has seemed to notice/care.

Edit: Another variation starts differently but ends the same – while killing the server.

• Enter a ‘full’ game that is 425-60.

• Next game starts – one guy from the winning team joins red – no one else does anything for a few seconds (up to 20+ sometimes, at which point all the spectators leave and the server dies).

• Someone unaware of the situation from the losing team joins blue (1v1).

• Another former winner immediately joins red (game usually starts about this point).

• As suckers trickle into the blue team the loop continues ad nauseum.

Evan Lesh.3295:

At what point are you seeing players join teams from spectator mode? Rewards are based on time played on a team, so are people forgoing partial rewards to be on the winning team?

Many people have answered and as you can tell (if you have not played and experienced it for yourself) there is quite a problem.

I don’t think features should be removed willy-nilly, but surely there is scope to adjust the current set up, for example by automatically assigning players to teams, not allowing players to swap teams (outside of autobalance), and preventing spectators from dropping in and out of a game (you either spectate or you play)- as others have also suggested.

Have you had time to investigate this and if so what are your thoughts?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Apologies if I’ve missed it, but I have yet to see someone suggest team-switching to spectator working the same as switching between Red and Blue. Disallow it if it would unbalance the teams. The general case is still possible, but harder. One person could move to spectator in a 5v5, but autobalance wouldn’t happen unless another player from the same team left the arena completely. Even if this doesn’t fix the problem entirely, it still makes team switching more consistent and less able to be abused. This should probably be done regardless of any other steps we could take.

I think you need to separate custom arenas (buyable) for a regular hot join servers.

Hot join servers should work like a soloqueue but with no ladder and hidden rank. In this way you can’t switch teams, you don’t have autobalance, you have similar skill level (ok, this is in theory, with a few people play this game every mmr system is an evil but an hot join designed like this can attract a lot of players) and people learn the true conquest mode.

Basically “play now” button becomes a soloqueue unranked.

The spectator mode should stay in this hot join – soloqueue unranked, people can select servers like spectators (only for spectators) to learn something.

Noone could cry about “spy possibility” because these matches are unranked so the main goal is improving and learning instead of winning (winning it’s always important and you have rank points progression but it’s not a ranked match).

For practice with friends, instant games, no brain games etc. people can use custom arenas, there are a lot of custom arenas with no password, so it’s a good place to fast practice (or Anet could add some dedicated server)

It would be an amazing step in the right directions, this game miss completely a specific “tutorial” phase o an initial/intermediate phase where people can understand how conquest works

PS U can use skyhammer and spirit watch for this hot join / soloqueue unranked and remove them from soloqueue ranked (like in teamqueue)

Evan Lesh.3295:

Apologies if I’ve missed it, but I have yet to see someone suggest team-switching to spectator working the same as switching between Red and Blue. Disallow it if it would unbalance the teams. The general case is still possible, but harder. One person could move to spectator in a 5v5, but autobalance wouldn’t happen unless another player from the same team left the arena completely. Even if this doesn’t fix the problem entirely, it still makes team switching more consistent and less able to be abused. This should probably be done regardless of any other steps we could take.

Can I make a suggestion about this theme, also if I dont believe that the problem, about which the OP wrote, exist.

It’s just an idea, but…
what if, players can only change the team in the first 2-3 minutes and, after this time, leave but cannot join a team until next round. Autobalance works further, how it does now.

PS: Do we ever get (the same or a changed version of) “Raid on the Capricorn” back?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Apologies if I’ve missed it, but I have yet to see someone suggest team-switching to spectator working the same as switching between Red and Blue. Disallow it if it would unbalance the teams. The general case is still possible, but harder. One person could move to spectator in a 5v5, but autobalance wouldn’t happen unless another player from the same team left the arena completely. Even if this doesn’t fix the problem entirely, it still makes team switching more consistent and less able to be abused. This should probably be done regardless of any other steps we could take.

Awesome thanks for considering that Evan!

I just want to clarify what you are suggesting- if the team numbers were even (say 4vs4) you could not move to spectate because you cannot swap teams in that situation either?

Also if a game is 4vs5, a player from the group with 5 could spectate, because they would also be able to team swap, but a player from the team with 4 people could not move to spectate and force an autobalance.

Is that the gist of it?

If that is the kind of thing that is a relatively easy tweak for the developers then it seems like a good move.

What do other people think? Are there any negative repercussions?

Yasha.5963:

seems like a good move.

What do other people think? Are there any negative repercussions?

Dat dev brain cells man !

report for afk , while you are in spectate gives you some time to rejoin the the match and play ?
> otherwise doesnt allow you to join the specific server again for 15 min ?
if a person ’’hops’’ servers a lot , then there will a time where 40-50% servers have blacklisted him and cant play to them (only spectate) ?

Edit: but nvm … ‘’Join Now’’ bottun will fill the empty spot if some1 goes in spectate

Evan Lesh.3295:

Apologies if I’ve missed it, but I have yet to see someone suggest team-switching to spectator working the same as switching between Red and Blue. Disallow it if it would unbalance the teams. The general case is still possible, but harder. One person could move to spectator in a 5v5, but autobalance wouldn’t happen unless another player from the same team left the arena completely. Even if this doesn’t fix the problem entirely, it still makes team switching more consistent and less able to be abused. This should probably be done regardless of any other steps we could take.

no, no, no, no, no, no.
u’ll kill off 4 vs 5 games like this.

because the team with one less player, who is being steam rolled by the other team with 5 players, cannot force an auto balance so their team gets one more player instead.

what you are suggesting is terrible.

…

please consider to do this instead:
those who enter spectator mode from red team or blue team while the match is underway, can only join back their original team after the auto balance.

for example,
red has 4 players
blue has 5 players

scores red 50 vs blue 200

john, from red, enters spectator mode so the teams become red 3 vs 5 blue in order to force an auto balance.

after 10 seconds, the teams are 4 vs 4 and someone from blue is auto balanced over.
john, who is in spectator mode, can only join back red team, his original team.

auto balance is to be used as a band aid clutch to help balance the losing team, not let the ones from the losing team switch into the winning team.

Yasha.5963:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Apologies if I’ve missed it, but I have yet to see someone suggest team-switching to spectator working the same as switching between Red and Blue. Disallow it if it would unbalance the teams. The general case is still possible, but harder. One person could move to spectator in a 5v5, but autobalance wouldn’t happen unless another player from the same team left the arena completely. Even if this doesn’t fix the problem entirely, it still makes team switching more consistent and less able to be abused. This should probably be done regardless of any other steps we could take.

Awesome thanks for considering that Evan!

I just want to clarify what you are suggesting- if the team numbers were even (say 4vs4) you could not move to spectate because you cannot swap teams in that situation either?

Also if a game is 4vs5, a player from the group with 5 could spectate, because they would also be able to team swap, but a player from the team with 4 people could not move to spectate and force an autobalance.

Is that the gist of it?

If that is the kind of thing that is a relatively easy tweak for the developers then it seems like a good move.

What do other people think? Are there any negative repercussions?

yes, there would be terrible repercussions.

have you put yourself in shoes the team of 4 players who is being steam rolled by the team of 5?

the 5 players team have no reason to enter spectator mode, while the 4 players team have more the reason to force an auto balance in order to balance up the match, especially if the 5 players team is leading in points by a large margin, and bursting down the 4 players team like there is no tomorrow.

it is extremely not healthy and not fun for the 4 players team to be steam rolled by a 5 players team.

even team matches are extremely rare in hotjoin nowadays. most games are 4 vs 5 while plenty of spectators waiting for dunno what.

just make it so that those who enter spectator mode to force an auto balance, can only join back their original team. this will be a good fix.

this will be how entering spectator mode to force auto balance should be.

i do it all the time, when someone rage quits on my team , i definitely dont want to be on the losing side so i go to spectate and wait to get on the winning team.

simple as that Anet. if you don’t penalize people for rage quitting then I will keep doing this. Sick of someone’s feelings getting hurt because their uber build just got trashed.

It is so pathetic to see people rage quit when their side is only 50 points behind.

Deimos , relax a bit :P
Let them do as they want :P
Let them create a ‘’perfect hothoin’’ as the community wants (help them for the 5v5 part) .

Later on , when ‘’that community’’ demands skyhamer or any other map to be removed from soloque , we will remind them that ‘’like as some ppl wanted to ’’force’’ others to learn faster to play the ‘’right way ’’ , its their turn to ‘’forcully learn’’ to play :P.

I dont believe the ‘’same ppl ’’ will have any objection about that can boss around other ppl about what them ‘’rightous way’’ and in the same time getting bossed too :P

Immagine this , as a game inside a game :P

Evan, the patch spectator mode was released you guys added the 2 arrows so people can choose the side they want (blue, red)

just remove this 2 arrows and add only 1 button JOIN and its “random join” only and when someone go from game to spectator mode than disable for him the “join” button for this match

simple – problem fixed^^

Removing spectator won’t change the root of the problem. The source of the problem is people attempting to get wins for achievements.

It should be possible to join either team only when they have 0 points, and then only join the team with less points (less overall player score if both teams have the same score higher than 0), and there should be a cooldown on going back to play after spectating or jumping arenas.

Otherwise people will use spectate to force autobalance, or jump arenas trying to get to one in which there’s a free slot in the winning team.

People should stick to one arena and play the rotation there instead jumping around all the time between arenas that have almost finished for wins. Switching arenas should happen because things like trying to find other people to fight against, or because your friends are in another arena. Not to rack up wins for achievements faster.

Also, It may be a good idea to replace the monthly PvP wins with something else, like playing a full match start to end on each arena once or something. This will also help people have a look at any new arenas added that are not in the random or team arena rotations.

It may also help a little informing better people that they’ll get more rank sticking around even if they lose, and that they will get a win for achievements even if they lose if they volunteer for autobalance.

Evan Lesh.3295:

At what point are you seeing players join teams from spectator mode? Rewards are based on time played on a team, so are people forgoing partial rewards to be on the winning team?

Yes.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Apologies if I’ve missed it, but I have yet to see someone suggest team-switching to spectator working the same as switching between Red and Blue. Disallow it if it would unbalance the teams. The general case is still possible, but harder. One person could move to spectator in a 5v5, but autobalance wouldn’t happen unless another player from the same team left the arena completely. Even if this doesn’t fix the problem entirely, it still makes team switching more consistent and less able to be abused. This should probably be done regardless of any other steps we could take.

Here’s a very common scenario:

5v4, the the four are losing. Someone from the losing team clicks spectator mode, and it becomes 5v3. Autobalance kicks in, and changes it to 4v4. The player who just left the losing team immediately joins the winning team, and there’s nothing the other players can do about it, unless the remaining players on the losing team now do the same thing, which ultimately screws over everyone who is actually trying to play.

Romek.4201:

Evan, the patch spectator mode was released you guys added the 2 arrows so people can choose the side they want (blue, red)

just remove this 2 arrows and add only 1 button JOIN and its “random join” only and when someone go from game to spectator mode than disable for him the “join” button for this match

simple – problem fixed^^

The join button could even be configured to only accept players in pairs (the first one queues, and both join when a second player clicks Join), so the teams are always even.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

[…]

The join button could even be configured to only accept players in pairs (the first one queues, and both join when a second player clicks Join), so the teams are always even.

Would something like this work addressing uneven matches?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Solvinguneven-matches-Sit-out-and-Substitutes/first

EnemyCrusher.7324:

Here’s a very common scenario:

5v4, the the four are losing. Someone from the losing team clicks spectator mode, and it becomes 5v3. Autobalance kicks in, and changes it to 4v4. The player who just left the losing team immediately joins the winning team, and there’s nothing the other players can do about it, unless the remaining players on the losing team now do the same thing, which ultimately screws over everyone who is actually trying to play.

He is telling you that , the person who who choosed to go in spectate mode > he will get timed out > cant join any other team for 1-2 min . And ppl that pushed ‘’Join Now ’’ bottun will take their places , or other ppl that manually go in that server

Here is my suggestion -

Anyone who enters a match after it has started – or leaves /switches teams once the match has started (other than through the automated balance system) should not be eligible for any rewards or achievement progression during that match. Anyone who leaves or switches teams should be further penalized to the point where they do not receive awards or achievement progression until they have successfully participated in a full match (and if they leave subsequent matches, it should compound – leave 2 matches, have to participate in 2 awardless matches – and so on).

True, some people who DC would be caught in this, but it is better than allowing people to work the system the way they do now.

Evan Lesh.3295:

This thread started with finding a way to NOT let people force auto-balance through spectator mode to get on the winning team. Now I’m hearing that this must be preserved with any hotjoin changes because it ‘balances’ the match. I would much prefer players sit an extra minute in a 4v5 to let someone new fill the spot then let players constantly jumble the teams.

Teams are constantly jumbled anyways.

If you want to prevent teams from constantly being jumbled, then let them fill up a bit before starting them. Starting new games when there are only 1-2 people in the game total is a recipe for disaster that we’ve sadly tasted too often.

Disable autobalance and then give the disadvantaged team a buff of an automatic 5 pts per tick for each player missing. Or whatever rate makes sense to developers.

The tick loop would check team sizes each tick.

Simple? Do it with one line of code?

Change reward/progression to be received only if a complete hotjoin match is played. If a player switch to spec or changes server they forgo any reward or progression.

Evan Lesh.3295:

This thread started with finding a way to NOT let people force auto-balance through spectator mode to get on the winning team. Now I’m hearing that this must be preserved with any hotjoin changes because it ‘balances’ the match. I would much prefer players sit an extra minute in a 4v5 to let someone new fill the spot then let players constantly jumble the teams.

evan,

have you even tried playing in hotjoin recently yourself?

:(

in a 4 vs 5 situation, the existing players spectating in the same room will never join the game to make it a 5 vs 5.

by the time another player from outside the room comes in, it will be too late to make a come back.

constantly jumbling the teams is much better than having one team constantly dominating the other.

….

….

….

solo arena is constantly plagued by 4 vs 5 problems.
at least in hotjoin, we can fix this ourselves with entering spectator mode to force auto balance.

please don’t take that away from us.

just make it that, spectators can only join the team with lesser points.
this will fix everything.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

Evan Lesh.3295:

At what point are you seeing players join teams from spectator mode? Rewards are based on time played on a team, so are people forgoing partial rewards to be on the winning team?

Yes.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Apologies if I’ve missed it, but I have yet to see someone suggest team-switching to spectator working the same as switching between Red and Blue. Disallow it if it would unbalance the teams. The general case is still possible, but harder. One person could move to spectator in a 5v5, but autobalance wouldn’t happen unless another player from the same team left the arena completely. Even if this doesn’t fix the problem entirely, it still makes team switching more consistent and less able to be abused. This should probably be done regardless of any other steps we could take.

Here’s a very common scenario:

5v4, the the four are losing. Someone from the losing team clicks spectator mode, and it becomes 5v3. Autobalance kicks in, and changes it to 4v4. The player who just left the losing team immediately joins the winning team, and there’s nothing the other players can do about it, unless the remaining players on the losing team now do the same thing, which ultimately screws over everyone who is actually trying to play.

just make it so that the ones in spectator mode can only join the losing team, even with the teams are balanced at 4 vs 4.

so the original person who entered spectator mode to force an auto balance can only join back the original team.

this will make entering spectator mode to force auto balance working as it is intended to be. to balance the teams so that the losing team has a chance by having an extra player.

if some other spectator decides to join the winning team after the losing team has one more player, then the game becomes 5 vs 5, effectively balancing out the teams.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Deimos , relax a bit :P
Let them do as they want :P
Let them create a ‘’perfect hothoin’’ as the community wants (help them for the 5v5 part) .

Later on , when ‘’that community’’ demands skyhamer or any other map to be removed from soloque , we will remind them that ‘’like as some ppl wanted to ’’force’’ others to learn faster to play the ‘’right way ’’ , its their turn to ‘’forcully learn’’ to play :P.

I dont believe the ‘’same ppl ’’ will have any objection about that can boss around other ppl about what them ‘’rightous way’’ and in the same time getting bossed too :P

Immagine this , as a game inside a game :P

nuuuuu i can’t relax.

they already ruined 8 vs 8 by turning it into 5 vs 4

i can’t let them take away the tools to fix the 5 vs 4 situations ourselves!

How about this: You can only rejoin the same team you were last on in a hotjoin match until the game is over. That includes if you leave the server and then return before that particular game is over. This rule only applies to public servers, not private ones.

I don’t know if this was considered, but what about just making it so anyone who is playing switches to spectator mode cannot rejoin play during the current match? That would prevent those shenanigans while still allowing people who had been in spectator mode since the beginning of the game to possibly join in (sometimes I’m changing my build when the match starts, for instance, so I remain in spectator mode until I’m finished, THEN join)

Another possibility, only allow people joining a game already in progress to join the losing team, if the point discrepency is above a certain point, like, say, 100 pts or more difference?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Dahkeus.8243:

Evan Lesh.3295:

This thread started with finding a way to NOT let people force auto-balance through spectator mode to get on the winning team. Now I’m hearing that this must be preserved with any hotjoin changes because it ‘balances’ the match. I would much prefer players sit an extra minute in a 4v5 to let someone new fill the spot then let players constantly jumble the teams.

Teams are constantly jumbled anyways.

If you want to prevent teams from constantly being jumbled, then let them fill up a bit before starting them. Starting new games when there are only 1-2 people in the game total is a recipe for disaster that we’ve sadly tasted too often.

What about upping the minimum players in ArenaNet custom arenas from 1 then?

At some point you change hotjoin enough to just become a queued arena, which is not the point of custom arenas. I really believe there are little changes we can make that will result in a huge difference.

You could do that or you could just add more time before a match starts in hotjoin.

I mean, think about it. If a match has a wait time before it starts, players can still run around and fight each other before the match starts like in the team queues, so I don’t think that it will slow down the action for people that just want to jump in and fight any more than it does already when a player joins into an empty or nearly match that’s started.

And it will still be unique from a queued arena regardless due to not having the same matchmaking and ranking that queued arenas have. This means it’s still a great place for new players or players who want to try out a new build/profession.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

this will make entering spectator mode to force auto balance working as it is intended

This is not intended behavior. One upset player should not be able to force other people to switch teams and stay in the match. Auto-balance is there to keep the team numbers even as people leave the game.

Deimos, despite his reputation, is right on point here Lesh. The fact is this thread has gotten derailed from its original spirit and you have picked on this “individual abuse” idea because it was easily singled out for attention. The real issue is the destruction of the hotjoin environment that IS the new player experience. Yes, cases of balance abusing do arise, but these are rarely the initial cause, and can combat the problem if the player rejoins the losing side instead.

I invite you to simply sit and watch a hotjoin server for several matches and observe player behavior. It is very common for players to either identify strong players by their previous perfermance or by scouting their ranks before joining (or being guildmates) and only joining their team, while the poor unsuspecting newbies, along with the rare altruist, begin to fill the opposing side. What results are long strings of miserable blowout matches as the losing side cycles through dozens of players that correctly decide to leave for a different server.

As many have suggested, the problem lies in the ability to choose sides freely at all. Hotjoin has far too great a range of player skills for this luxury to exist without abuse.

Edit: I would also like to add something I have noticed, which may or may not be reality—a few times I have seen 4v5 matches with a single idle spectator… Do players stop getting sent to the server in this case?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

just make it so that the ones in spectator mode can only join the losing team, even with the teams are balanced at 4 vs 4.

so the original person who entered spectator mode to force an auto balance can only join back the original team.

this will make entering spectator mode to force auto balance working as it is intended to be. to balance the teams so that the losing team has a chance by having an extra player.

if some other spectator decides to join the winning team after the losing team has one more player, then the game becomes 5 vs 5, effectively balancing out the teams.

Agree +1

Of course, i’d prefere to rework hot join in unranked soloque version, but if this fix was little (speaking about dev time) it would be good in general.

Spectator mode in solo and team arena please! +1

Evan Lesh.3295:

This thread started with finding a way to NOT let people force auto-balance through spectator mode to get on the winning team. Now I’m hearing that this must be preserved with any hotjoin changes because it ‘balances’ the match. I would much prefer players sit an extra minute in a 4v5 to let someone new fill the spot then let players constantly jumble the teams.

You honestly don’t really play the game often right…
“Sit an extra minute in a 4v5 to let someone new fill the spot” is a complete joke.
It’ll keep on til it becomes 3 v 5 and force the autobalance because no-one want to join a losing team.

There’s only ONE option to fix this: Separate spectate mode and playing mode.
If you press “Spectate” and join a game, you can ONLY SPECTATE but NOT JOINING THE WINNING TEAM FOR A FREE WIN.
If you press “Play Game”, you’re RANDOMLY assigned to a team if both team are 100 points close to each other and have the same team numbers, and placed to the losing team if it’s 100 points or more behind.

For people who would complain about not having friends to play with each other or testing builds, add some free “No Rule” games that are free for all to test build there, with NO REWARD in those maps.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

this will make entering spectator mode to force auto balance working as it is intended

This is not intended behavior. One upset player should not be able to force other people to switch teams and stay in the match. Auto-balance is there to keep the team numbers even as people leave the game.

do you think 4 players team will be happy versus-ing a 5 player team?

back when official anet hotjoin were 8 vs 8, 8 vs 7 or 7 vs 6 were not much of an issue since the slots filled up quickly but now in 5 vs 5, 5 vs 4 stays 5 vs 4 until the match is over. the people in spectator mode will not join in.

also, auto balance will not keep 5 vs 4 balanced unless a player from the 4 player team enters spectator mode to force it. once the teams become 4 vs 4, other spectators eager to join the winning team will quickly hop onto the winning team.

….
…
…

okay, how about this instead?

if the teams are not even
1 v 2
2 v 3
3 v 4
4 v 5

on the team with more players, the first player to die, can only respawn when another player on their team has died.

this will make the teams even.

ah, i think someone suggested this before? no?
if not i shall go and make a new topic about it.

As one already mentioned, the only real solution might be, not letting ppl chose the side they play on at all (on public servers)
And if they go spectate they can only return to their original team.

@Deimos
was already suggested in another thread, but the caged up at spawn might bring up other problems

Evan Lesh.3295:

This is not intended behavior. One upset player should not be able to force other people to switch teams and stay in the match. Auto-balance is there to keep the team numbers even as people leave the game.

I agree.

My thoughts are that this whole thread is trying to fix the wrong problem, or is attacking a symptom instead of the root cause.

The cause is unbalanced matches (in my experience, completely one-sided hopeless matches).

Instead of worrying about spectate mode or team switching, I would propose to make auto-balance actually balance teams so that matches do not become so one-sided so fast. Currently auto-balance only reacts when there is a 2 person difference (3v5, 2v4, 1v3), and it reacts quite slowly: 10-15 seconds before it kicks in, another 10 seconds for volunteers to switch, then the person who switches is back to the spawn and is going to take at least 15 seconds if not longer to get back into the action.

Proposed changes:
1) If the match is in progress, and teams are even (4v4), the joining player cannot join the winning side.
2) If the teams are uneven (4v5), and the team with more players is ahead by 100 points (adjust as needed), auto-balance is activated immediately and moves 1 player to the losing team.
3) If there is a 2 person difference on teams (3v5), auto-balance immediately activates, and the person switched gets a 50% speed boost for 15 seconds.
4) Lower “volunteer time” of auto-balance to 5 seconds. Remove the 10-15 second delay before activation or at least lower it to 5 seconds.
5) When possible, keep players that have been on a team from before the match starts on that team when auto-balance activates (unless they volunteer), to encourage people not to sit and wait to join a team.

Once people learn they can’t just spectate/wait themselves onto the winning team, and that matches don’t(or rarely) get hopelessly one-sided, we’ll have more fights and less rage-quits.

Evan Lesh.3295:

This thread started with finding a way to NOT let people force auto-balance through spectator mode to get on the winning team. Now I’m hearing that this must be preserved with any hotjoin changes because it ‘balances’ the match. I would much prefer players sit an extra minute in a 4v5 to let someone new fill the spot then let players constantly jumble the teams.

Only one person is shouting that this current system of abusing spectator mode to modify the outcome of the game is a good.

I would be happy with any small tweaks to prevent this from happening, although my preferred method would be to take the choice, and thus ability to abuse the system, out of the hands of the players entirely, by letting the system randomly assign players to teams, not allowing players to team swap outside of autobalance, and preventing players that move to spectate mid-game from rejoining as a player.

The only downside to this idea is that you will no longer be able to play reliably on the same side as friends, although that can also be a positive as it prevents pug stomping.

The main downside to your idea as ens pointed out is that players would still be able to pick “winning” teams at the start of the match.

I do not agree that spectators should be allowed to rejoin only the same team they left because it is still match manipulation, forcing autobalance on a player whim. We just need to make sure that new players get funnelled quickly into existing or 4vs5/4vs3 etc matches to fill them up. I never had an issue with unbalanced number of players in hotjoin teams in the past; the current abuse of spectator mode is the real issue.

BTW thank you again for being active on this issue.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

okay, how about this instead?

if the teams are not even
1 v 2
2 v 3
3 v 4
4 v 5

on the team with more players, the first player to die, can only respawn when another player on their team has died.

this will make the teams even.

ah, i think someone suggested this before? no?
if not i shall go and make a new topic about it.

really complicated
we should just look for something that is very straightforward without changing how the game works

Sarrs.4831:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

okay, how about this instead?

if the teams are not even
1 v 2
2 v 3
3 v 4
4 v 5

on the team with more players, the first player to die, can only respawn when another player on their team has died.

this will make the teams even.

ah, i think someone suggested this before? no?
if not i shall go and make a new topic about it.

really complicated
we should just look for something that is very straightforward without changing how the game works

it is a simple respawn queue system actually.

for example,

red team
1. john
2. peter
3. evan
4. murky
5. boobah

blue team
1. bing bing
2. janet
3. alice
4. jessie

5 red vs blue 4

fight fight fight pew pew pew
boobah dies
boobah waits 0 – 20 seconds for the team respawn interval
times up, boobah is supposed to respawn
however, john, peter, evan, murky are still alive
boobah will not respawn if the other 4 are alive
boobah will respawn immediately if either one of the 4 is dead
say, peter is dead and needs to wait 0 – 20 seconds to respawn
boobah will respawn immediately since he has waited 0 – 20 seconds earlier

still complicated?

People are simply under the delusion that if you make one single “simple” change people’s mindsets will completely change and these issues will be fixed.

For any “simple” (knee-jerk) proposal implemented it would take just minutes to show how it would be exploited just as badly as right now, or how would drive everyone from hotjoin.

How about this:

Since everybody wants to be on the winning team, resulting in them simply going back to Spectator mode if they get autobalanced, we increase the benefits of being the person that gets autobalanced. They currently already get the winning team bonus, but what if we DOUBLED the reward for being autobalanced? (1000 rank points for a win if you’re autobalanced, as opposed to 500 if you’re not.) That would basically negate any real desire to switch teams back after getting autobalanced, unless they were absolutely focused on getting a real win (as opposed to just a “win” as far as the achievements are concerned.)

Zaxares.5419:

How about this:

Since everybody wants to be on the winning team, resulting in them simply going back to Spectator mode if they get autobalanced, we increase the benefits of being the person that gets autobalanced. They currently already get the winning team bonus, but what if we DOUBLED the reward for being autobalanced? (1000 rank points for a win if you’re autobalanced, as opposed to 500 if you’re not.) That would basically negate any real desire to switch teams back after getting autobalanced, unless they were absolutely focused on getting a real win (as opposed to just a “win” as far as the achievements are concerned.)

that won’t happen, since team arena loses only gives 500 rank points.

ah kitten this.
i give up.

just disable spectator mode completely from official custom arenas hosted by anet, which are also commonly known as official hotjoin servers.

disable choosing team as well.

but in the case of even teams, assign the extra player to the losing team.

…

…

…

do that, and maybe we can enjoy hotjoin again.

Nooooooooo, Dun disable spectator mode, I like watching games, scouting builds etc…
Why throw the baby out with the bath water?
Just, if programming isn’t too complicated, remove the ability to switch teams after spectating.
This could still result in unfair matches: Spectate——-auto balance——-rejoin team for 5v4 or something, but this may be a problem with programming as other posters have asked ie: the space not getting filled by someone who hits “play now” if there are other spectators?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

ah kitten this.
i give up.

Thats it my son , come to the corrupted side ,
we have cookies :P

Let the community decide if they want Skyhammer and any other map in soloque , while the hotjoin should be a ‘’proper way to play the game’’ ,
or move those maps in hotjoins > because thos maps are fun > and if hotjoin is categorized as fun then we can have back the 8v8 cookies :P

Either way the ‘’Skyhammer Megathread’’ will be removed :P

If they implant the ideas as other ppl have said :
1) the server that need a person will be highlighted with a pink color > offer extra rewards if you stay till the end (or the spot is filled with the ‘’Join Now’’ in the other hand) .
2) ppl that left the map or use spectate get a debuff for 10 min (stackable) > each time they try manually to join a server they have to w8 30 sec (stackable) at the spectate mode before they can join up in either team ( ‘’join Now’’ bottun assinging them in a random team) .
3) PvP maps on hotjoin need 2 min to start , then the system will suffle the ppl in random teams
4) While you w8 for game to start you can ‘’tick box’’ an other 1 person that you wish to be with , in the same team . He will must do the same to you , in order to succed (or 2 other person in a 6v6 games)
5) With ‘’Join Now’’ 2 ppl can que up together

Remove spectate. It ruins the fun of inventing original builds and makes them easy to copy. It the reason we have these builds suddenly become meta builds. And yes, it does allow a losing player to become a winning player with little to no effort.

I feel like a fairly simple change could address this. When you join a map, you have X seconds to pick a team. If you fail to pick in that time, you get LOCKED into spectator mode.
And (to prevent people simply leaving and rejoining to circumvent this system):
Once a match has progressed passed a certain threshold (let’s say, once a team is passed a certain number of points), new players who join are automatically put on the team with less players (if teams are uneven), or the team with less points (if the teams are even).

Zelulose.8695:

Remove spectate. It ruins the fun of inventing original builds and makes them easy to copy. It the reason we have these builds suddenly become meta builds. And yes, it does allow a losing player to become a winning player with little to no effort.

Special snow-flake syndrome?
There’s nothing wrong with builds getting around. And using a “good build” isn’t a short-cut to being pro.
And that’s not how metas work… a meta and meta builds will form regardless of spectator mode. People share their builds, and people can figure out builds just by playing against them.