Guild Wars 2

It literally blows my mind that this elite has still not be fixed/changed. Let me break this down for you as i try to make this as constructive as possible in case cough cough anet developers read this post cough

1. Cast Time
So a while back the devs increased cast times on all rez utilities to 3 seconds or more, it takes about 2 seconds for the spirits rez animation to go off, this as well as warrior banner since im here should be changed to 3 secs. Also when traited with Nature’s Vengenance, when the spirit dies, it is an unstoppable rez, that itself is bad game mechanics period.

2. The Rez Targets
So normally the rez has 600 range but can be traited for 720 using Natures Vengeance once again. Comparing it to all the other multi target able skills (necro signet, war banner, ele glyph), the common theme is that they are ground target able skills, because it provides counter play if say the enemy team blows outs a downed body. This rez unfortunately is a fire and forget method which showcases more bad game mechanics.

3. Passive Heal
The tool tip for this skill is wrong as it actually heals for 480 per second opposed to the 320 as listed. It provides under best case scenario 28k healing to the caster, and then on top to 4 more other targets, total 140k if active for 60 seconds. This insane hp gain tops all classes regular healing skill outputs even if they were to spam them off cd every time in a period of 60 seconds. Oh yeah you cant even prevent the heal as in corrupting regen to remove it or other boon stripping needs.

4. The Condi Cleanse
So imagine this, you down a target in a team fight using condis, due to game mechanics a downed players condis all go away which kinda sucks, but you know that once they get back up, their stuck with any conditions on them. Your team then begins to cleave adding poison, torment, burning, whatever they can to prevent the other team from getting a downed body up. 20 stacks of bleeding, 7 seconds of burning, 5 seconds of poison, your necro slams on the epidemic key knowing that your team coordinated its condis on that target. Anddddd the spirit rez activates, the enemy gets up, him and his team then gets 5 condis cleared per person and laugh at your attempt of a downed condi cleave. Like what, rez plus a aoe 5 man condi clear……

These are the no brainer changes in order to provide a balanced skill rework. Firstly, increase the cast time of the spirit to 3 seconds to be more inline with other rezs. Next are two options of a rework to the rez. Either change the rez to be a 180 range ground targetable 3 person rez that provides no condi clear. Or keep the rez as is now, but can only be used on 1 target, with aswell lower condi removal on target, 3 should be good. Finally make the cd for the rez 70 secs so you can only use it once as I think with a 60secs cd you may still be able to get 2 rezs, plus the traited death rez.

These are some more less than immediate changes that can be reworked with the elite. Change the passive healing of the spirit so that it now provides the boon regen. This allows it to be stripped off targets, and adds counterplayability to it. Decease the overall healling factor of the spirit, theres a reason people are complaing a about the new and improved warriors signet heal. I would say about almost to 150hp per sec and then scales with healing power but the number can change. The cd on the skill aswell should bbe increased to 240 in line with the banner rez, since the pet can have an uptime of 60 seconds under ideal conditions.

Other than that feel free to comment on my proposed changes, but believe it or not, this skill does need changes/reworks.

-insert ranger rambling about how spirit not OP here-

But seriously, this skill is incredibly over the top.

boring. boring. boring.

Lol you just spent all that time writing when you could have just stated you think the skill with a long kitten cd is OP.

yep it’s a crazy skill & nature’s vengeance is a bad talent ( should be removed entirely rather than moved to GM ). the natural counterplay for the spirit is to assist it down first, but NV gives brainless counter-counterplay.

fortunately most spirit rangers have it up at the outset of a team fight, so you can trigger NV on an assist without any downed opponents. it is always first target whenever I see one, since you need to deny the HoT to the team as well.

The only balancing factor is when you can put it on CD without a single successful res going off.

i agree with all notes from OP.

We can’t really use anything else

I think your description of a team spamming aoe conditions on downed is a bigger problem than SON.

Don’t forget that spirit rez cast(or condi removal) can be interrupted easily with any cc, it’s very predictable and have long cast animation.
Also, Nature spirit can be killed pretty fast if focused by 2+ players. But seems like most ppl just ignoring this and keeping crying about how it’s op.

it is an elite skill, so it should be valued as such against other res utilities.

the more i reflect on it, the more i just dislike NV as opposed to SoN outright.

if the ranger casts it for team heals, it can be focused first as counterplay. the active can be interrupted. the only part that is unstoppable is NV res.

Last time i checked the healing of Spirit of nature is pretty close range probably around 300 range so the ranger has to be pretty close to his team for them to get the healing.
Would like some other people to test this out and see what your results are.

Spirit can be killed really quickly, needs bigger ranger than other rezz abilities cause the pet has to move and cant be aimed, cast time if fine, many times the ranger must summon the pet first before he can use the rezz.

While your criticisms are perfectly valid, I just can’t swallow the pill that the Spirit needs to have it’s regenerative properties toned down to the level of regen’s base 150hps. I think the cooldown for the Nature’s Renewal skill needs to be larger (possibly 1 minute) just to make the active more valuable, while still making Nature’s Vengeance see some play. But c’mon, Rangers lack group utility in general and they don’t have many options outside of Spirits.

Plus, not to mention: when you summon a spirit and hit it’s active skill upon summon, it sometimes doesn’t trigger at all and goes on full cooldown as if the skill actually processed…

1) Primary it early.
2) Interrupt it (hint: you can predict when it will be used.)
3) Don’t kill it if someone is down.

I’m not in a 5 man team but this is something my random premades accomplish with little effort. Don’t expect the game to hold your hand out of your own laziness. Find a counterplay.

Ryan.9387:

1) Primary it early.
2) Interrupt it (hint: you can predict when it will be used.)
3) Don’t kill it if someone is down.

I’m not in a 5 man team but this is something my random premades accomplish with little effort. Don’t expect the game to hold your hand out of your own laziness. Find a counterplay.

Says a spirit ranger I don’t think the issue is it having no counterplay, it’s just imbalanced.

I mostly agree with you, even after the incoming December 10th nerfs, I don’t think Ranger will stop being mandatory on teams, and this elite has a lot to do it.

LegendaryLukeee.1462:

1. Cast Time

I disagree here; I think team res utilities should have their cast times normalized to 2 seconds. In order to be more useful in solo queue, the cast time needs to beat the stomp animation, since successfully precasting the res is much more difficult without voice comms.

LegendaryLukeee.1462:

2. The Rez Targets

Personally, I dislike all muti-target res utils. I’m also a proponent of the 1 stomp, 1 rally idea. All these multi rallies make team fights super swingy, which is not great for competitive play. Nature’s Vengeance should go as well.

LegendaryLukeee.1462:

3. Passive Heal

I think your nerf to the passive heal is a little too harsh, I’d say cut it in half first and see how that goes. It is pretty OP especially in small-scale fights as it stands, I definitely agree on that.

LegendaryLukeee.1462:

4. The Condi Cleanse

I agree, the full condi wipe on top of the other effects is over the top. I could see it toned down or even removed entirely.

I am fine with the rez and the rez on death stuff. The rez on death can completely change the outcome of a fight/game but I feel like recognizing the mechanic and choosing how to handle it as a team (either to kill it/not kill it/ hold off on AOE spam so it doesn’t die) promotes some form of coordination which is a good thing.

The healing and condi cleanse however is a bit insane.

Some ideas to tone it down but keep it viable:

Allow the healing and condi cleansing but if the spirit uses its rez, then the spirit gets tired and cannot heal/condi cleanse for a period of time

Limit the # of people the spirit can rez with its on death activation

Maybe increase the interval or tie the activation of the condi clease with another skill or ability (something to the effect "if the ranger uses a healing skill while spirit is acitve then all affected allies cleanse condi’s)

Just some ideas for thought. I understand that this elite is incredibly important to the classes viability in tournament play, so affecting/nerfing it to much could be a bad thing. I am not a ranger so if any of my ideas are horrible, i apologize.

Spirit of Nature is op crap.

Another mistake of Anet, the list is impeccable long.

They super nerf ranger in every aspect, to leave the only overpowered thing right there. And when they finally notice they will bring down the real issue (nerf spirit elite), to then say ‘sorry guys we can’t revert the other nerfs, you will have to live with it.

Results is the same:

Ranger is unquestionable underpowered.

cymerdown.4103:

LegendaryLukeee.1462:

3. Passive Heal

I think your nerf to the passive heal is a little too harsh, I’d say cut it in half first and see how that goes. It is pretty OP especially in small-scale fights as it stands, I definitely agree on that.

You know you’re dealing with something strong when “Cutting it in half” is the safe option.

But yeah this thing just wins teamfights by giving everything warrior sig as well as a split second to interrupt it if someone goes down. However you can’t focus it because of the insane health and regen it has, and in particular, the extremely sporadic movement pattern shared by all spirits. Spirits kind okittenwardly follow the ranger and then move really fast to adjust, meaning you can’t get in position to use point bank CC on it (to interrupt the res) and you can’t use grenades or melee the spirit reliably (because it dances all over the kittening place). I wish that could be changed slightly.

Suggestions

1 – have nature’s vengeance share a cooldown with the normal active rez (if active on cooldown, NV won’t fire)

2 – make it so spirit cannot heal itself or reduce its HP. Very difficult to deal with this spirit 1v1 because killing it is a huge time suck. Other elites do not give such persistent advantage in 1v1 (compare to ele signet pet, necro golum)

The spirit’s cast time should be 1.5 to 2 seconds to allow more counter play.

How long is its cast time now? Doesn’t say on wiki

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Ryan.9387:

1) Primary it early.
2) Interrupt it (hint: you can predict when it will be used.)
3) Don’t kill it if someone is down.

I’m not in a 5 man team but this is something my random premades accomplish with little effort. Don’t expect the game to hold your hand out of your own laziness. Find a counterplay.

Says a spirit ranger I don’t think the issue is it having no counterplay, it’s just imbalanced.

True I play spirit ranger, but that should make me well versed in the limits and counters of my tpvp build. I find that the teams that counterplay the spirit are more often the ones that I need spirit res the most for.

I also run spirits because it is effective, not because it is fun. Post patch I’m strongly considering a bm build. Then people will be back to complaining about quickness stomps and how “at least we could kill the spirits.” I still believe this is a failure of people to develop a 1v1 backpoint build to beat ranger. My build is meant for 1v1. Their build is meant for midfights. They should lose to me every time assuming equal skill.

Classes can make builds to beat spirit ranger. Try minion necro, terror necro, stunlock warrior, phantasm mesmer, staff ele (coinflip though), or some other build. Suddenly you beat spirit ranger and are inferior at midfights. Then realize that this is what a ranger feels like, except there is no viable build to play midfight without killing 1v1 potential.

This multi role junk is what bothers me. “I want my engie to bunk home point, win all 1v1, win midfight, kill a bunker on point, and have great movement.” If this happens, everyone plays engie. (See ele, see warrior). Those classes that “pick 1” or “pick 2” are the best design wise in the game.

The engie who stands on legde on foefire and rains 1500 nades should lose 1v1 to me. If he won this means a class then has #1 1v1 and midfight dps. This isn’t a meta I want, and presumably nobody else does either.

You know, I really think that this is one of the few true elite skills in the game. I do not believe it should be nerfed I believe other elites should be brought up to be somewhat equal to this elite. The skill has a long cool down and it offers a ton of counter play. If a ranger summons it early for heals it can be killed or you can just take someone down and then interrupt the spirit (there is never a spirit rez that goes off that I do not attempt to interrupt). If you kill the spirit at a poor time then it will rez, so you either A. Kill it early, or B. Interrupt it, get the stomp, then kill it and then kill more people. It is very easy to counter (also it bugs all the kittening time). The things that make it over the top are the 480 hp/s (I think 320 is “balanced”-ish) and Nature’s Vengeance. After the patch Nature’s Vengeance will be GM trait and will be the only thing a full Spirit ranger has got going on after the lesser spirit nerfs.

Honestly, I hate using this spirit because i feel it is soo easily countered but its the only good elite we have. RaO is countered way too easy by boon rip and thief prioritizing stab rip with bountiful theft which makes the elite worthless. As for entangle, entangle just makes me sad.

@faeral
You say Natures Vengance is a bad talent, im gonna have to go 50/50 on that, since it makes the lesser spirits have an interesting mechanic, while when we adapt it to spirit of natures unstoppable rez, it doesn’t quite seem balanced. Maybe if Natures Vengance is changed where the actives of spirits are activated when summoned then on death? A 1 sec cast time to summon the pet, and then the pet is spawned still allowing it be interrupted adds counterplay. This change allows both the lesser spirits and elite work seamless, thoughts?

@yasha
I understand that aoe spam is a problem in this game, the point that i was getting across is that the rez nullifies a enemy’s team both condi/physical cleave. Its quite strong for all the other effects that are included in this current rez. I am almost positive you don’t see very heavy downed body cleave combs due to this rez. If a single skill can prevent an entire teams effort through multiple means, wouldn’t you think its a bit too strong?

@Andyzzor
A valid point that the spirits are cc’able, but so are any other professions rezs so i dont really find this point that credible. I would though love to hear your ideas on how you would prevent the unstoppable rez with Natures Vengance traited.
I will admit that the spirit rez can be killed by two or more players, but at the same time, your team is then at an advantage killing an actual player instead of ai. I also dont see any other class mechanics and provides 480hp per second aoe and 5 man 5 condi clear on death.

@vashio
I tested it today and the range is indeed 600 or 720 traited. I do know that sometimes it does bug out, but i prefer to assume in all assumptions of skills that they work as intended.

@Blackjack
I do realize that spirit of nature is an elite skill, and should be balanced accordingly to its weight of a skill. But when balancing skills say A vs B, pros and cons of both skills must be adjusted that one or the other have different pros and cons to make one skill overall better then rest. If we changed how the spirit rez to be now ground target able with a 180 aoe range, plus more when traited. Does this not still provide a skill status of “elite”, factoring in the double rez potential, condi clear and passive regen.

@Diamond Meteor
150hp per second may be too low, i rethought about this and maybe should be adjusted to 200-250hp + healing power scaling. Right now the hp regen is not affected by healing power. Why i think this range is a good value is due to the fact that you cannot strip the healing as like the regen boon. If maybe the passive healing was actually turned into the regen boon, i would be more inclined to add a higher number due to the counter play by corrupting or removing the boon. Another thought that should be mentioned is that two spirits of nature stack.

@Ryan
When i think of any conversation happening around in the forums, i only apply it to the highest level of play. Sure you can always make a list of how to best win a game or scenario, but alot of factors have to come in your favor to execute that strategy. I would love to hear your list or counterplay ideas when a spirit elite dies due to its cd ending and having an unstoppable rez/aoe condi clear.

@Mini Ken <3
I believe J Sharp once stated in the forums or sotg that rez ultities need a longer cast time as they can have a huge impact on a team fight. Regardless if im wrong, normal utility rezs are 3+ seconds, while warrior banner and spirit rez are 2. Maybe a Dev can elaborate on those cast time choices? Or are they simple missed facts.
It would be pretty interesting to see a 1 stomp 1 rez mechanic and multi rez mechanics gone. It would definably be a different game with a higher skill cap.

@candlecan
If a classes viablity in tournaments are dependant on one single skill., would you not think first that the class in general has a problem, than the skill itself?

@kavia
“have nature’s vengeance share a cooldown with the normal active rez (if active on cooldown, NV won’t fire”
That is actually a very interesting idea, though the one thing that still bothers me is that this elite still has the potential of 2 rezs while all other class rez’s go on cd.
Reducing the spirits own self healing or ambient team healing wouldn’t be fair to the spirit user imo.

@Ryan again
I think its anets balance job to prevent such cases where a class that excels in 1v1s, also excels in team fights. This reason is why most people call the meta “spam” due to the risk to reward ratio when using aoe attacks are not that high. Nothing we can do as players are selves, its anets job to do.

@Eura
A slight note on the lesser spirits change that is coming up, im assuming your talking about the storm spirit damage nerf. Its not really your fault thinking its a nerf, its actually anets balance team that initially didn’t correct the problem in the first place. Even the change doesn’t make sense, the spirits damage should scale off power. It makes no sense why a condition build spirit can hit as hard as a power spec with the same spirit.
Right now i think the spirit of nature elite is too strong in a multitude of ways, you could buff all other elites to match the insanity of effects of spirit rez. But its easier to change 1 elite than all, as well this would bring on power creep.

Interrupt it, interrupt the ranger casting it, kill it before you kill players (stack the conditions on the spirit and epidemic that if you want – rangers do not watch the conditions on the spirit and won’t use it for that).

My only complaint with it (I have two, but the other is with targeting) is that it doesn’t require Line of Sight.
The other complaint being it’s hard to target through the masses of AI clutter and particle effects in the game.

Other than those two the spirit has a number of counters.

Nobody was saying that there are no counters, though. It’s that the combination of effects it can give are too strong in comparison to other elites. Strong enough that it’s suppressing other team comps from being as viable as ones containing a Ranger.

cymerdown.4103:

Nobody was saying that there are no counters, though. It’s that the combination of effects it can give are too strong in comparison to other elites. Strong enough that it’s suppressing other team comps from being as viable as ones containing a Ranger.

you’re just getting frustrated because they can replace your role as a bunker. i can tank 1v3 fights long enough before my team arrives. guardians and spirit rangers are pretty much the same, IMO.

Valentin.2073:

guardians and spirit rangers are pretty much the same, IMO.

That is now quoted for all eternity, no backsies.

cymerdown.4103:

Valentin.2073:

guardians and spirit rangers are pretty much the same, IMO.

That is now quoted for all eternity, no backsies.

Quoted for use of the word “backsies.” Nice.

Is it overpowered? Or is every other elite in the game underpowered?

Now to be serious; it is a balance issue, but is it really an issue of something really being overpowered, or is it another case of a situation that seems to be cropping up quite frequently; without a direct baseline to balance around, nothing is holding back the power creep that is being introduced into the game.

So, usually the people calling for nerfs are completely right about what they are asking for to be nerfed. But the long term effect has to be taken into consideration as well. If that something is nerfed, but the change isn’t made into part of a baseline in which buffs and nerfs are made and power creep is allowed to happen, then it will get to a point where the power creep will get so bad that whatever gets buffed could potentially be balanced in a meta where the power creep has run amok.

So, first thing is first, establish a baseline. Is Spirit of Nature too strong (maybe Nature’s Vengeance is the cause of more issues than the skill itself), or are most other elite skills too weak?

Balance from there.

Sorry for the ramble.

cymerdown.4103:

Valentin.2073:

guardians and spirit rangers are pretty much the same, IMO.

That is now quoted for all eternity, no backsies.

For some reason my mind tells me the origin of the word “backsies” comes from Doyourbestbear.

Something tells me pvpers in MMO’s will never be satisfied until only someone of the same class and spec they like to play is the only candidate who can challenge them.

You are gutting the spirit for no reason. It’s a 180 sec cd elite requiring full 30 points in Nature Magic to be viable.

BM bunker rangers can’t use it. Power spec rangers can’t use it.

The rest of the ranger elites suck.

cymerdown.4103:

Valentin.2073:

guardians and spirit rangers are pretty much the same, IMO.

That is now quoted for all eternity, no backsies.

My sides… LOL

Please tell me this doesn’t say what I think it says.

spirit of nature needs a buff. 180 sec is just bad. and the res can be interrupted easily. what the ranger needs is res spirit with 120 sec cooldown and we need to get the frost spirit buffed (the damage bonus is not enough).

LegendaryLukeee.1462:

@faeral
You say Natures Vengance is a bad talent, im gonna have to go 50/50 on that, since it makes the lesser spirits have an interesting mechanic, while when we adapt it to spirit of natures unstoppable rez, it doesn’t quite seem balanced. Maybe if Natures Vengance is changed where the actives of spirits are activated when summoned then on death? A 1 sec cast time to summon the pet, and then the pet is spawned still allowing it be interrupted adds counterplay. This change allows both the lesser spirits and elite work seamless, thoughts?

I suppose the two Spirits that are currently problematic with NV are Storm & Nature, & Storm is being addressed by Dec 10th patch ( I agree with others that Storm should have damage reduced but scale with Ranger’s Power ). But currently it is not hard to see that your Storm spirit is low on health & line up 2x 4k+ AoE attacks in short order.

If NV procced on summon, then it would become much easier to double chain all of the Spirit actives, but could also give incentive for the Ranger to hold off the Spirit summon to make use of NV tactically…it could be a good change. It would ultimately give the Ranger more control over the trait’s effect while ensuring the effect can be countered.

Another solution is to keep the Spirit in an interruptible state upon dying & triggering NV, but tbh I prefer your idea more since it reduces passive play.