Guild Wars 2

Dev J. Sharp recently posted a sort of, “Spvp and our view” thread earlier this evening, and one think stuck out to me more than anything. This is an excerpt regarding the idea of “Splitting Skills,” which is when the class skills are balanced differently depending on what game type you are playing (PvE, PvP, or WvWvW).

The 3 different game types and splitting skills. Splitting skills between all 3 of our game types (PvE, PvP, WvW) is very costly – it takes more time to split the skills, and then upkeep the split skills. Instead of upkeeping 1 version of a skill, whenever you make future changes, you now have to make sure all 3 are appropriately balanced for their respective game types. This is very powerful, and something we did in GW1 when we felt we needed it. We just need to be careful not to do it too much, or it means the balance team is literally balancing 3 entire games. As Freamon (from “The Wire”, btw if you haven’t seen “The Wire”, stop whatever it is you’re doing and go watch it. Unless you’re giving birth. In that case…wait until you’re done, then watch it immediately afterwards. Oh, and get your new son/daughter to watch it when they’re old enough.) usually reminded the other members of the cast, “All the pieces matter.” The different pieces of GW2 all impact the other pieces, and it’s something we must always bear in mind.

I am having the hardest time swallowing this. So lets try to break it down point by point.

Splitting skills between all 3 of our game types (PvE, PvP, WvW) is very costly – it takes more time to split the skills, and then upkeep the split skills.

It might take more time, but wouldn’t the end result be harmony for all the game types involved? I know I hate when PvE antics impact my PvP abilities because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. They are two completely different mindsets and playstyles. And I know thakittens the same sentiment in reverse.

Instead of upkeeping 1 version of a skill, whenever you make future changes, you now have to make sure all 3 are appropriately balanced for their respective game types.

If you did split them into 3 different types for 1 skill, why would you change them all simulatenously if there was a balance issue in only 1 or 2 of the game types, why would you not just balance it for THOSE types and leave the others unaffected?

We just need to be careful not to do it too much, or it means the balance team is literally balancing 3 entire games.

Again, if the end result is the playerbase playing a balanced game no matter the game type, why is extra time involved a bad thing? If a skill is imbalanced in PvE, why would you assume that it is imbalanced in PvP?

“All the pieces matter.” The different pieces of GW2 all impact the other pieces, and it’s something we must always bear in mind.

Except that the pieces are only affecting the other game types because you let them. They don’t need to, and they shouldn’t.

Someone please give me some clarification, I am not a coder, nor a programmer, nor a developer, so perhaps a gamers perspective just isn’t enough in this situation. But it seems like such a simple solution to have the skills split. Where is the actual cost, or is the reality that the devs simply don’t want to put in the time/effort to split them?

I believe this is one of the major things holding back PvP from truly becoming competitive. How can PvP balance be achieved if it is affected by the other two game types?

It cannot. As long as Anet refuses to dedicate time and resources to splitting skills, it will never achieve balance. No other game with pvp has ever successfully overcome this hurdle and become competitive.

TLDR Splitting Skills is Essential to PvP Balance

Bump for discussion. Devs need to address this.

I completely disagree with splitting skills.

Instead of splitting skills, dungeons should be revamped so it is closer to PvP as much as possible. The dungeon team should look into PvP and WvW as much as possible and ask themselves, how can I make that last battle into a dungeon fight?

Dungeons are boring and easy, period. It requires absolutely zero skill. You just need the highest dps build to gain the fastest run. The Dodging is more than sufficient enough to keep you alive. Dungeons needs control and support to be useful. Dungeons needs real cooperation. Dungeons need more than 2 dodges to survive.

runeblade.7514:

I completely disagree with splitting skills.

Instead of splitting skills, dungeons should be revamped so it is closer to PvP as much as possible. The dungeon team should look into PvP and WvW as much as possible and ask themselves, how can I make that last battle into a dungeon fight?

Dungeons are boring and easy, period. It requires absolutely zero skill. You just need the highest dps build to gain the fastest run. The Dodging is more than sufficient enough to keep you alive. Dungeons needs control and support to be useful. Dungeons needs real cooperation. Dungeons need more than 2 dodges to survive.

PvE is PvE, PvP is PvP. The two have always, and should always, be mutually exclusive.

Hammerheart.1426:

runeblade.7514:

I completely disagree with splitting skills.

Instead of splitting skills, dungeons should be revamped so it is closer to PvP as much as possible. The dungeon team should look into PvP and WvW as much as possible and ask themselves, how can I make that last battle into a dungeon fight?

Dungeons are boring and easy, period. It requires absolutely zero skill. You just need the highest dps build to gain the fastest run. The Dodging is more than sufficient enough to keep you alive. Dungeons needs control and support to be useful. Dungeons needs real cooperation. Dungeons need more than 2 dodges to survive.

PvE is PvE, PvP is PvP. The two have always, and should always, be mutually exclusive.

Of course they are different because dungeon devs are just too lazy to make it as similar as possible.

I understand your frustration with dungeons runeblade, but can we please have this thread remain focused on PvP?

TBH I don’t care about dungeons, or PvE for that matter.

Except, this topic was never specifically about PvP at all.

This topic is about all forms of the game, PvP, PvE, and WvW.

runeblade.7514:

Except, this topic was never specifically about PvP at all.

This topic is about all forms of the game, PvP, PvE, and WvW.

Well, you are posting on the sPvP forums, kinda goes without saying. If this is an issue go create a thread on the PvE forums.

Please stop derailing the thread.

Frankly, seeing how they designed the system themselves and splitting a skill would simplify balancing that skill, I find the argument hard to believe.

Certainly, he argued that balancing must be done delicately because it affects PvE and WvWvW… Which is true, but then they argue splitting would require greater testing. Which is technically false. If they split the skill, they would have more skills to test, but the testing would be reduced since they wouldn’t need to check the cross contamination between different realms.

Except I am not derailing the thread.

If dungeons were revamped so it is similar to PvP, then this whole splitting skill nonsense doesn’t even have to happen. Revamping dungeons in that specific way helps sPvP. This is the viable alternative other than that garbage suggestion like splitting skills.

But please lets continue trying to balance three different formats and further separating players of each as we tear this franchise to shreds.

The players separate by the game type they are interested in participating in.

The game was released under the guise of being a competitive PvP game, yet time and time again we see the other two formats (wvwvw and pve) either taken into account, or the cause of, pvp related balance issues. They created three different formats to the game, three dynamically different formats. And all their hopes and prayers are all for naught if they think they can balance 1 skill for three formats.

If they split the skill, they would have more skills to test, but the testing would be reduced since they wouldn’t need to check the cross contamination between different realms.

Exactly. The mentality that you MUST make changes to all 3 formats (assuming the skills are split) because a skill in one format is “off,” is a flawed concept. Why would you need to do this?

Enemies in PvE even used the -exact- same abilities that players used. All enemy npcs and their groups could be seen as a simulation of PvP fights, certainly you’d be familiar with the abilities in both formats by playing either.

This is incorrect. NPC’s have never been programmed to have reactionary behavior like humans. They may have had access to all the same abilities, but they were never used in the same fashion. Anyone using a PvP build for PvE in Gw1 was quickly shown the error of their ways.

I’ll be the first to say, “Don’t tell me how to enjoy the game.” I don’t PvE, I just don’t. I don’t appreciate mechanics that are abused and broken in PvE, but are fine in PvP, and then are changed and reworked for 1 format of the game. But i’ve seen it go both ways, and I know PvE players don’t like it anymore than I do.

Derailed thread is officially derailed.

Hammerheart.1426:

Dev J. Sharp recently posted a sort of, “Spvp and our view” thread earlier this evening, and one think stuck out to me more than anything. This is an excerpt regarding the idea of “Splitting Skills,” which is when the class skills are balanced differently depending on what game type you are playing (PvE, PvP, or WvWvW).

The 3 different game types and splitting skills. Splitting skills between all 3 of our game types (PvE, PvP, WvW) is very costly – it takes more time to split the skills, and then upkeep the split skills. Instead of upkeeping 1 version of a skill, whenever you make future changes, you now have to make sure all 3 are appropriately balanced for their respective game types. This is very powerful, and something we did in GW1 when we felt we needed it. We just need to be careful not to do it too much, or it means the balance team is literally balancing 3 entire games. As Freamon (from “The Wire”, btw if you haven’t seen “The Wire”, stop whatever it is you’re doing and go watch it. Unless you’re giving birth. In that case…wait until you’re done, then watch it immediately afterwards. Oh, and get your new son/daughter to watch it when they’re old enough.) usually reminded the other members of the cast, “All the pieces matter.” The different pieces of GW2 all impact the other pieces, and it’s something we must always bear in mind.

I am having the hardest time swallowing this. So lets try to break it down point by point.

Splitting skills between all 3 of our game types (PvE, PvP, WvW) is very costly – it takes more time to split the skills, and then upkeep the split skills.

It might take more time, but wouldn’t the end result be harmony for all the game types involved? I know I hate when PvE antics impact my PvP abilities because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. They are two completely different mindsets and playstyles. And I know thakittens the same sentiment in reverse.

Instead of upkeeping 1 version of a skill, whenever you make future changes, you now have to make sure all 3 are appropriately balanced for their respective game types.

If you did split them into 3 different types for 1 skill, why would you change them all simulatenously if there was a balance issue in only 1 or 2 of the game types, why would you not just balance it for THOSE types and leave the others unaffected?

We just need to be careful not to do it too much, or it means the balance team is literally balancing 3 entire games.

Again, if the end result is the playerbase playing a balanced game no matter the game type, why is extra time involved a bad thing? If a skill is imbalanced in PvE, why would you assume that it is imbalanced in PvP?

“All the pieces matter.” The different pieces of GW2 all impact the other pieces, and it’s something we must always bear in mind.

Except that the pieces are only affecting the other game types because you let them. They don’t need to, and they shouldn’t.

Someone please give me some clarification, I am not a coder, nor a programmer, nor a developer, so perhaps a gamers perspective just isn’t enough in this situation. But it seems like such a simple solution to have the skills split. Where is the actual cost, or is the reality that the devs simply don’t want to put in the time/effort to split them?

I believe this is one of the major things holding back PvP from truly becoming competitive. How can PvP balance be achieved if it is affected by the other two game types?

It cannot. As long as Anet refuses to dedicate time and resources to splitting skills, it will never achieve balance. No other game with pvp has ever successfully overcome this hurdle and become competitive.

TLDR Splitting Skills is Essential to PvP Balance

No thanks. I don’t want to try to remember what skills work in what areas. I come to PvP to practice specs for other parts of the game. If the skills become way different, there is no reason for PvP. Let’s be honest, of the three game modes, PvP, PvE, and WvW, PvP is the least popular.

when a limb is rotting……you sever it from the body.

reading through this forum tells me this very small community is almost impossible to please and completely toxic to engage in discussion.

i’m sure they know how to balance the game best for themselves, but they ruin it for the rest of us (the vast VAST majority) with every QQ.

sever the rotting limb…………either separate the skills (preferable) or end sPvP, because the rotting limb/spvp communtiy is ruining wvw and PvE

No thanks. I don’t want to try to remember what skills work in what areas. I come to PvP to practice specs for other parts of the game. If the skills become way different, there is no reason for PvP. Let’s be honest, of the three game modes, PvP, PvE, and WvW, PvP is the least popular.

Don’t put your laziness onto the rest of us.

Yes, PvP popularity is low, but the threads on this forum are created in the hopes of making it more popular, and more importantly, making it work.