Guild Wars 2

My first time playing 3 matches in over a week as I decided to take a break.

First match: We lose by a lot, in large part because my team decides to run the orb in spirit watch despite us not having control of more than 1 point for more than a few seconds at any given time.

Second match: Utterly obliterated. I’ve repressed the details but it started out 75-0 and didn’t get any better.

Third match: I zone in to find 2 thieves on my team and 3 warriors on theirs. Went as expected (even though the warriors were absolutely skillless, they just spammed CC and won anyway).

And I said to myself.. why am I doing this? It’s annoying, I can’t find a team to play with, the rewards are better doing pretty much anything else.

Welcome to soloQ.

That’s why most people just solo-play teamQ.

The matchmaking gets better as you get higher ELO. The first 10~ games you will be matched with utter noobs. As you get higher you get matched with people who actually know what they are doing.

Dee Jay.2460:

Welcome to soloQ.

That’s why most people just solo-play teamQ.

I think you meant…

“Welcome to GW2.

That’s why most people just play something else for pvp."

:)

Dee Jay.2460:

Welcome to soloQ.

That’s why most people just solo-play teamQ.

Where instead of having a chance of the 4 people I’m matched with having a bit more of a clue than the 5 I’m fighting, I get matched with 4 random people who are there for ‘rewards’ against organized teams in a match that’s a guaranteed loss from the start.

Geff.1930:

The matchmaking gets better as you get higher ELO. The first 10~ games you will be matched with utter noobs. As you get higher you get matched with people who actually know what they are doing.

I’m now pushing 200 matches in solo queue and the caliber of the players is so random that I’ve pretty much given up on getting much higher. Team queue I have 100 matches and as mentioned above at least 1/3 of the matches are over before they begin so I won’t be moving up in that as well.

Only reason I’m still here is that I’m stubborn. 100% understand why 99% of GW2 avoids PvP — it’s a bloody mess.

It’s funny, it might be my current rating or just luck but I’m having more fun in Solo Q now. Crafting pet builds to deal with the meta on the side, while ending up in matches where my teammates talk and at least strategize before the start and then end the match with the losing team at 300+ and sometimes 400+.

The only thing that cramps my style currently is Skyhammer.

Qaelyn.7612:

My first time playing 3 matches in over a week as I decided to take a break.

First match: We lose by a lot, in large part because my team decides to run the orb in spirit watch despite us not having control of more than 1 point for more than a few seconds at any given time.

Second match: Utterly obliterated. I’ve repressed the details but it started out 75-0 and didn’t get any better.

Third match: I zone in to find 2 thieves on my team and 3 warriors on theirs. Went as expected (even though the warriors were absolutely skillless, they just spammed CC and won anyway).

And I said to myself.. why am I doing this? It’s annoying, I can’t find a team to play with, the rewards are better doing pretty much anything else.

This is definetely not the reason for me,i couldnt care less about the things you mentioned.For me its the lack of gamemodes/maps and proper rewards that would otherwise keep you interested and get you going so you want to keep on playing because you know youre building up to something awesome…The pvp chests reward,do not care….The occasional dye inside..do not care..the silver reward, do not care….Its like throwing the dog a bone,its not an actual reward,its like …here…uh,have something atleast.Also gamemodes for gods sake,imagine having a variety of gamemodes like king of the hill,deathmatch,last man standing….just to name some.

Btw anyone know why in solo q i’m costantly matched with ppl rank 30-55 as i’m rank 15? Shouldn’t i get ppl of my same rank?

as rank = time spent in pvp i think a rank 30/40/50 is strongly more expert than a 15

Because, just as you said, rank is the amount of time one spent in PvP, not a measure of skill. ELO is the thing you want to keep an eye on.
@OP: As someone already said, get higher rating and enjoy better games.

higher elo dont help for this

you still get blow out matches or matches with 2 thiefs in your team or things like this and even on higher elo alot people dont know anything bout rotation cause they got carried by facerolling warrior

and op is talking bout how he can understand why people avoid pvp – cause it is annoying

and you cant tell a new player who say its not fun he should get a higher elo – he simply will leave

and ye it is not fun in an AI zerg to find the target or fighting warrior i have to make dmg like i would kill 4 or 5 other people and he is still on 50% hp while he just smash face on board and kill me 2 hit while i cant do anything cause stunned

And how did u decide that the fault wasnt yours for losing the match? You havent played for quite some time… Should I even say that your skill level has dropped just because of that lol?

You are looking for the reason at the wrong place. A skilled player will have no issues whatsoever to climb up the ladder and fight with/alongside equally (or close) skilled players.Obviously you dont have what it takes to be at that spot… yet. Taking into consideration that you can win 2v1/3v1 because you out-smart/out-play your enemies and thus gain advantage to actually win the match. Obviously you’ll lose some matches cause of “bad matchmaking” on your side… and voila you should positive win/lose ratio and actually climb up the ladder

Game’s mechanics have nothing to do with your misfortune in this case tho.

“I lose over and over again because my team is awful and my matchups are awful, there’s no possible way my own gameplay could be improved and I would never even think about looking at my own effectiveness on a team because i know I am better then all of them.”

- The code of the QQ

The good thing is that for some reason since they revamped the leaderboard system you move up and down quickly. I went from 80% to around rank 340 after winning a few games. Before the revamp I would win a string of games and go from 80% to 82%.

It also seems to help if I play an OP (and easy) class like spirit ranger, stun-lock warrior with HS, or MM necro.

BTW: I didn’t realize people avoided spvp! I mean that’s all I do in this game….

Lol @ leaderboards. They mean jack squat. What matters most is how many games a person has played and, secondarily, not having an abysmally low win/loss ratio.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Lol @ leaderboards. They mean jack squat. What matters most is how many games a person has played and, secondarily, not having an abysmally low win/loss ratio.

I agree, but it was still nice to finally see my name “in the lights” after all this time.

The new rewards system seems better as well now, I get gold, better drops from chests, essence of luck (not sure what it does but its another number I get to see increase, haha)

Heizero.9183:

“I lose over and over again because my team is awful and my matchups are awful, there’s no possible way my own gameplay could be improved and I would never even think about looking at my own effectiveness on a team because i know I am better then all of them.”

- The code of the QQ

“I jump into threads and make snarky remarks about other posters because I think I’m so clever that I need to try to belittle others, there’s no possible way that the OP was making a different point that I didn’t really read carefully and understand correctly and I would never even think about whether my post adds anything constructive to the thread because I know better than everyone else here”.

- The code of thoughtless forum warriors

I never said that the problems were entirely with other players and not with me. But very often it is. My skill becomes irrelevant when my team is outmatched by the other team, and especially when they do stupid things (like ignoring capture points).

Geff.1930:

The matchmaking gets better as you get higher ELO. The first 10~ games you will be matched with utter noobs. As you get higher you get matched with people who actually know what they are doing.

Im sorry but this is not true i think even Anet doesnt know how their matchmaking system works really. I see level 1-10 players regulary (im around top 200-600 yolo queue leaderboard.) in games.

Sounds like you just don’t like losing. Or are not a good player. Most likely both.

I just started PvP today. I have done 12 matches as a staff Ele, the class they say is worst for PvP. I’ve won 9 of those 12 matches, had 33 top stats awarded, and currently have 108 kills.

There’s nothing wrong with PvP, it’s a blast to play.

Covis.6037:

Geff.1930:

The matchmaking gets better as you get higher ELO. The first 10~ games you will be matched with utter noobs. As you get higher you get matched with people who actually know what they are doing.

Im sorry but this is not true i think even Anet doesnt know how their matchmaking system works really. I see level 1-10 players regulary (im around top 200-600 yolo queue leaderboard.) in games.

Been on solo/team leaderboards both before and after reset. Don’t remember last time I’ve been in 4v5 match (that includes Skyhammer matches) or teamed with/against lvl20 and below. In fact I’d say most of the time average rank is between 45 and 50. The only negative thing I’ve seen increased is the amount of trash talk. I should probably note that I don’t play in low concurrency time slots.

all i read was…

my team is bad
warrior is op

Qaelyn.7612:

Heizero.9183:

“I lose over and over again because my team is awful and my matchups are awful, there’s no possible way my own gameplay could be improved and I would never even think about looking at my own effectiveness on a team because i know I am better then all of them.”

- The code of the QQ

“I jump into threads and make snarky remarks about other posters because I think I’m so clever that I need to try to belittle others, there’s no possible way that the OP was making a different point that I didn’t really read carefully and understand correctly and I would never even think about whether my post adds anything constructive to the thread because I know better than everyone else here”.

- The code of thoughtless forum warriors

I never said that the problems were entirely with other players and not with me. But very often it is. My skill becomes irrelevant when my team is outmatched by the other team, and especially when they do stupid things (like ignoring capture points).

He’s right though, there is a trend where people immediately look for things to blame for doing poorly in soloq including blaming teammates, matchups, game balance, etc. Doesn’t necessarily mean that that is what you are doing but coming on the forums complaining about this stuff is, in my opinion, a knee jerk reaction with a very slippery slope. It’s very easy to vent and blame factors beyond your control but it gets you no where and has a viral quality in that other people feel validated in complaining in the same way which then results in a miserable community. The game and it’s community would be a lot more enjoyable if we were all better at focusing on the things we CAN control such as our contribution to the game and less on factors beyond our control.

Sure, there’s a tendency for people who are unhappy to post on forums more than ones who are happy. But many of the same complaints get repeated over and over again because they are valid complaints that do not get addressed.

Complaining may not fix anything but shooting the messenger or sweeping stuff under the rug doesn’t either. And frankly, it’s getting to the point where it’s more enjoyable to debate PvP than to play it.

Mochann.5298:

Sounds like you just don’t like losing. Or are not a good player. Most likely both.

Yes, both.

I’m okay. Not great. Not horrible.

And I don’t like losing just as most people don’t. But I hate losing when it happens because my team was not outplayed, but just thoughtless (or worse, AFK/absent).

Like most GW2 players.

And like most GW2 players, I’m increasingly becoming convinced that PvP is not worth the frustration involved.

If Arenanet wants this to be a viable game mode, they need to encourage people to play it because it’s worth playing for its own sake and not just because they toss them a couple of AP or silver pieces. Until then, “not good” players like me will just go elsewhere, leaving a tiny handful of you uberplayers wondering why queue times are so long.

Qaelyn.7612:

Sure, there’s a tendency for people who are unhappy to post on forums more than ones who are happy. But many of the same complaints get repeated over and over again because they are valid complaints that do not get addressed.

Complaining may not fix anything but shooting the messenger or sweeping stuff under the rug doesn’t either. And frankly, it’s getting to the point where it’s more enjoyable to debate PvP than to play it.

I’m just pointing out that in general it’s a slippery slope to start blaming teammates and stuff like that and that it doesn’t do any good because all you are doing is getting yourself worked up over things that are beyond your control – I do it too and ralize that it’s stupid but it’s a very easy thing to fall into.

On the other hand, I totally sympathize especially regarding Spirit Watch and the tendency for people to overvalue running the orb and completely ignore the capture points. I feel like that map in particular is tough for soloq becuase it seems to me to require a more coordinated strategy that you have a hard time getting in that environment.

Leadfoot.9071:

I’m just pointing out that in general it’s a slippery slope to start blaming teammates and stuff like that and that it doesn’t do any good because all you are doing is getting yourself worked up over things that are beyond your control – I do it too and ralize that it’s stupid but it’s a very easy thing to fall into.

You’re right, and I appreciate your reasoned response. I do have a tendency to get down on stuff and last night was especially frustrating.

Leadfoot.9071:

On the other hand, I totally sympathize especially regarding Spirit Watch and the tendency for people to overvalue running the orb and completely ignore the capture points. I feel like that map in particular is tough for soloq becuase it seems to me to require a more coordinated strategy that you have a hard time getting in that environment.

It’s also that team composition has a huge impact on who wins.

Why team queue is spared from being forced to play broken maps but solo queue is not I will never understand.

Qaelyn.7612:

My first time playing 3 matches in over a week as I decided to take a break.

First match: We lose by a lot, in large part because my team decides to run the orb in spirit watch despite us not having control of more than 1 point for more than a few seconds at any given time.

Second match: Utterly obliterated. I’ve repressed the details but it started out 75-0 and didn’t get any better.

Third match: I zone in to find 2 thieves on my team and 3 warriors on theirs. Went as expected (even though the warriors were absolutely skillless, they just spammed CC and won anyway).

And I said to myself.. why am I doing this? It’s annoying, I can’t find a team to play with, the rewards are better doing pretty much anything else.

So…you lost some games and gave up? I’m not sure what you think will fix this issue. Should we force all games for new players to be wins? Should new players be paired with pros on their team and paired against inexperienced players?

…or maybe the players should just have an ounce of patience for teammates that are still learning the game.

Covis.6037:

Geff.1930:

The matchmaking gets better as you get higher ELO. The first 10~ games you will be matched with utter noobs. As you get higher you get matched with people who actually know what they are doing.

Im sorry but this is not true i think even Anet doesnt know how their matchmaking system works really. I see level 1-10 players regulary (im around top 200-600 yolo queue leaderboard.) in games.

i second this. i guess there are just too few players for the MM to regulate such things. i went up and down from 70% to 300-ish and back to 90% and played all the way with the almost the same players (ranged from 80% to 200 or even higher).
this fact tells me either rating gained is way too high or population is just too low for mmr to take good effect (second more probably)
sidenote: i do believe anet knows how their system works and they are aware of the issues. maybe they dont tell anything about it because a fix is on the line

Mochann.5298:

Sounds like you just don’t like losing. Or are not a good player. Most likely both.

I just started PvP today. I have done 12 matches as a staff Ele, the class they say is worst for PvP. I’ve won 9 of those 12 matches, had 33 top stats awarded, and currently have 108 kills.

There’s nothing wrong with PvP, it’s a blast to play.

12 matches is by far not enough to judge. top stats do have no meaning at all nor do kills (specially with aoe spam its likely to have many kills).
many things are not really ok. but i have to admit it still is a blast to play

i played much less mainly because warriors are a pain in the kitten and its ongoing for months now without balance updates nor any statements if devs think current state is ok or not.
and since i received some nice beta key for another game im caring much less about it

This is what you should expect playing a team PvP game solo. If you want a better experience get 4 people you know and play teamq. Seriously random teams are random and you will just need to accept that often you’ll be put on the worse team. I’ll log on and do 3 matches in soloq and the outcome is irrelevant to me (i’ll still try hard in the game because its polite for the other players).

You just need to come to the realisation that random queue will give you random results and if you want to play where you have more control over that result you need a team. You’ll enjoy yourself more and have fun with friends too. Trust me I know it sounds a bit scary but try teamq with a team – you’ll have a better game experience.

Coulter.2315:

This is what you should expect playing a team PvP game solo. If you want a better experience get 4 people you know and play teamq. Seriously random teams are random and you will just need to accept that often you’ll be put on the worse team. I’ll log on and do 3 matches in soloq and the outcome is irrelevant to me (i’ll still try hard in the game because its polite for the other players).

It’s good advice. As they say: disappointment is caused by expectations. And I really should know by now not to have any in there. Thanks.

Coulter.2315:

You just need to come to the realisation that random queue will give you random results and if you want to play where you have more control over that result you need a team. You’ll enjoy yourself more and have fun with friends too. Trust me I know it sounds a bit scary but try teamq with a team – you’ll have a better game experience.

I absolutely believe you, and I’ve been trying to find a PvP guild or team to play with for over a month. But it seems to be impossible for a newer, mostly casual player to find a team, especially when maining a mesmer (and not even a shatter mesmer).

I’m leveling up an engi, maybe that will make it easier. I dunno. Regardless of profession I never see teams looking for people unless they are at the higher echelons.

Jinx.7258:

And how did u decide that the fault wasnt yours for losing the match? …A skilled player will have no issues whatsoever to climb up the ladder and fight with/alongside equally (or close) skilled players.

Jinx,

You obviously have not played all that many SoloQ matches yet to say something like this.

Or else you are just trolling hard here.

Anyone who has spent significant time in the current SoloQ knows the limits of what one player can do when the other 4 player on their team are losing all their fights and not capturing points.

It always blows my mind how people can never figure out how the simple logic behind holding 2/3 points. The majority of my teams cap our home/mid then everyone scatters leaving 0-1 bodies in mid who get overwhelmed by 3-4 while they have 1 bunkering home. I always wonder why I am never on the team that makes sense. :/

Silentshoes.1805:

Jinx.7258:

And how did u decide that the fault wasnt yours for losing the match? …A skilled player will have no issues whatsoever to climb up the ladder and fight with/alongside equally (or close) skilled players.

Jinx,

You obviously have not played all that many SoloQ matches yet to say something like this.

Or else you are just trolling hard here.

Anyone who has spent significant time in the current SoloQ knows the limits of what one player can do when the other 4 player on their team are losing all their fights and not capturing points.

Actually he just follows simple logic… Both teams have relatively close MMR. If you as an individual play better then the average you will enjoy better win/lose ratio which will eventually lead to a rise in your MMR, meaning better average player skill and better games with higher average MMR. And so the cycle repeats.
Now, due to poor state of pvp, population wise, and due to off peak hours having low coverage, your position is allot more volatile then in similar comparable games, but the above principle still holds as a general rule.
Most important thing to remember is that you might lose a game or ten, but in the long run your rating will rise up, assuming that you indeed play better then average in your current bracket.

Freelancer,

Most people understand the logic and the theory. But what really happens, I think, is that if your MMR does rise, you soon get assigned 3 or 4 new players to “balance” your high MMR in the team average. You cannot carry that many, you lose a lot, and your MMR falls again.

I am going to call it the Leaderboard Trampoline Effect.

What we are seeing in the forums right now are new PvP players who started sPvP after the Dec 10th update and are now repeating all the arguments and counter arguments that we saw all during the fall season.

It’s like a cycle. New players come in and repeat all the same arguments.

Follow the threads from a few months ago and you will see people eventually concluding that it is nearly impossible to “carry” a set of 3 or 4 of new players that are assigned to your team if the other team does not have a similar set of low-skilled players.

That’s why ArenaNet has announced that they are scrapping the leaderboard system for a ladder system.

Swagger.1459:

Dee Jay.2460:

Welcome to soloQ.

That’s why most people just solo-play teamQ.

I think you meant…

“Welcome to GW2.

That’s why most people just play something else for pvp."

:)

This. There are a lot of things to like about this game, but s/tPVP is not one of them.

I got sick of hearing how much of a noob engi spammer I was, well I’m sorry my berserkers build that uses 3 elixirs and nades and has a very specific burst rotation in order to maximise damage potential.

Silentshoes.1805:

Freelancer,

Most people understand the logic and the theory. But what really happens, I think, is that if your MMR does rise, you soon get assigned 3 or 4 new players to “balance” your high MMR in the team average. You cannot carry that many, you lose a lot, and your MMR falls again.

I am going to call it the Leaderboard Trampoline Effect.

See, now this is a perfect example of people actually not understanding the logic and theory… As your MMR rating rises so does the pool of available players change. When you are 90% you will get far fewer r1’s (if any), glory farmers or whatnot. What you will be teamed up with are players that are much closer to your skill level then when you were at 40% or whatever.
The hypothetical peak you speak of is at the top rankings on the leaderboards. If you reach it, you are actually teamed up/against lower ranking players. And even then you have equal chance of getting better or worse players in your team. The Trampoline Effect you speak of is non-existent, unless you had a lucky streak and ended up in higher tiers then you should have.

Silentshoes.1805:

Follow the threads from a few months ago and you will see people eventually concluding that it is nearly impossible to “carry” a set of 3 or 4 of new players that are assigned to your team >if< the other team does not have a similar set of low-skilled players.

That’s why ArenaNet has announced that they are scrapping the leaderboard system for a ladder system.

Bolded for emphasis. Again, try to understand that, unlike old system, pool of 10 people is split up so that the average MMR on both teams is as close to one another as possible. That does indeed mean you will be stuck with people you have to carry, especially in really low brackets, but that doesn’t mean that the other team won’t be stuck in the same situation next game or the game after.
Again, I’ll repeat it for n-th time: this is a numbers game, where numbers are the amount of games played… The only thing that could ruin the system is playing in off peak hours, since results from those times are completely skewed.

And ANet is trying to mimic more involving and successful system like ladders in order to draw more people to the desolate PvP, not because current system is failing.
Furthermore, ladders won’t make any difference in the speed of getting to the adequate skill level if player pool remains the same.

Freeelancer, I’m pretty sure you and I have had this discussion before. As I said then, your argument is an example of this Albert Einstein quote: “In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.”

The math is technically correct but ignores the sheer amount of time required to actually move up the board given the small pool of players and huge variability in their ability and desire to even play properly.

Your argument also ignores synergies and interactions. There are builds that work well in a team of good players and not in a team of clueless ones.

Caedmon.6798:

Qaelyn.7612:

My first time playing 3 matches in over a week as I decided to take a break.

First match: We lose by a lot, in large part because my team decides to run the orb in spirit watch despite us not having control of more than 1 point for more than a few seconds at any given time.

Second match: Utterly obliterated. I’ve repressed the details but it started out 75-0 and didn’t get any better.

Third match: I zone in to find 2 thieves on my team and 3 warriors on theirs. Went as expected (even though the warriors were absolutely skillless, they just spammed CC and won anyway).

And I said to myself.. why am I doing this? It’s annoying, I can’t find a team to play with, the rewards are better doing pretty much anything else.

This is definetely not the reason for me,i couldnt care less about the things you mentioned.For me its the lack of gamemodes/maps and proper rewards that would otherwise keep you interested and get you going so you want to keep on playing because you know youre building up to something awesome…The pvp chests reward,do not care….The occasional dye inside..do not care..the silver reward, do not care….Its like throwing the dog a bone,its not an actual reward,its like …here…uh,have something atleast.Also gamemodes for gods sake,imagine having a variety of gamemodes like king of the hill,deathmatch,last man standing….just to name some.

The best reward we PvPers could get is the Monthly and Yearly Official tournaments with good prizes, just like we had in GW1.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

The best reward we PvPers could get is the Monthly and Yearly Official tournaments with good prizes, just like we had in GW1.

Only if they make these tournaments for ordinary mortals too, not just people who spend 80 hours a week on the game.

Qaelyn.7612:

Freeelancer, I’m pretty sure you and I have had this discussion before. As I said then, your argument is an example of this Albert Einstein quote: “In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.”

The math is technically correct but ignores the sheer amount of time required to actually move up the board given the small pool of players and huge variability in their ability and desire to even play properly.

Your argument also ignores synergies and interactions. There are builds that work well in a team of good players and not in a team of clueless ones.

And any and all of those factors are relevant for the opposing team and every individual player.

But let’s ignore everything and assume that player X is always teamed up with braindead useless scrubs while the other team is tip-top… because that makes helluva lot more sense then statistics, maths and logic.

Freeelancer in theory yes but ingame its not working

today at 12 i joined solo my first game teamQ – im at 90-93% in leaderboards
i got invite INSTANT and had to face team Boon with Sensotix, Vintari and co

total blow out – first guy left after 10 sec so was 4v5 and we lost with something 50:500

sure there is an mmr – but its not working when they pair with people, cause they waited soooo long (no players^^), whoever is coming in the Q and give them a free win completly ignoring mmr. This is sooo wrong.

this is bad for the people who have to go in to get farmed and its bad for the leaderboard cause teams get ranking + mmr which they dont deserve

and this match is just an example – it happens very often

and same is in soloQ – top players have to wait forever and when they dont cancle Q after 5 min and Q again they get paired with whoever

and now, cause broken reward system with more than double reward in teamQ, more solo players play teamQ and so not enough players in soloQ to have a working mmr. Playerbase is thinned out on all MMR ranges and so you meet same people you see on 80% later on top 500 or 200 too.

this is bad for the game – it kills teamQ leaderboard and it kills mmr in soloQ

i said it first day when this reward thing came out but anyway …. All is Vain and Arenanet guyz dont care for spvp anyway

I’m avoiding PvP because too many players still have no clue how to play on a capture point, and this just proves me why i was winning so easy in hero battles in GW1.

I just went into TA ( solo) against 4 thieves and a warrior. It should have been an (easy) win by playing sides only , but people decided to not. 1 or 2 guys suiciding middle all the game, resulting in sides being outnumbered. Attacking opponent lord for no reason ,etc..
And this is just an example among many. Builds are a problem, but players are too..

edit : and you get an other proof counting the number of players that are blocking you and then whispering about how you are failing

Freeelancer.2860:

And any and all of those factors are relevant for the opposing team and every individual player.

But let’s ignore everything and assume that player X is always teamed up with braindead useless scrubs while the other team is tip-top… because that makes helluva lot more sense then statistics, maths and logic.

For someone who wants to try to take the scientific/mathematical angle, you sure are big on ignoring real-world complexities in favor of gross oversimplifications. (Not to mention flatly nonsensical strawmen like that second part.)

Yes, in theory, eventually better players rise to the top. But in practice, this process is slow, uncertain and frustrating. And there are some characters that would do well at the higher levels but will never get there because they do not function well on a team with 4 people running around like headless chickens. (I’m not necessarily saying the one I play is in this category, just taking issue with your “look it’s so simple!” silliness.)

@ Romek: In team queue all bets are off, and especially in off peak hours.
As you said, ANet rolled out PvP with no infrastructure and waited for far to long to start improving it, so current population is abysmal (but improving).
But in any case, teamq is not a good measurement of MMR because the random factors of soloq are in most cases not random in the least bit. Your example of being teamed up against a top team proves that.
And, in soloq, top players do indeed get queued after waiting long enough without being paired up with someone who’s close to their MMR, but isn’t that in itself a counter to the entire “I am better then scrubs in my team but I can’t carry” argument ?
Lastly, I’ve played at least 200 soloq matches since the reset, and while I see some familiar faces, they are few and far between.

@Qaelyn: It wasn’t a strawman, it was a mockery of your rigidness. It was probably out of place, but put yourself in my shoes where almost every argument goes something along the lines of “I am better then others but I can’t rise because people I play with are bad”, and most of the people with that same argument scoff when someone mentions being more adaptable as their solution.

As far as the system working as designed goes, I have (anecdotal) evidence to back myself. Both before and after reset I ended up in solo/team leaderboards. While before reset I was lucky enough to evade ELO hell, after the reset I was stuck in it on both solo and team queues. But eventually I dug myself out of both because I was more communicative/more adaptable/more aware/more skilled/more whatever then the average player in my/opposing team.

Qaelyn.7612:

And there are some characters that would do well at the higher levels but will never get there because they do not function well on a team with 4 people running around like headless chickens. (I’m not necessarily saying the one I play is in this category, just taking issue with your “look it’s so simple!” silliness.)

As far as one’s build choice/communicative skill goes (or for that matter any of the other individual aspects that are what truly represents your MMR), it is these that are the only limiting factor for individual players standing and those are the things that should give you a chance to rise above the muck.
That’s why a person that always takes initiative and tries to communicate and form strategies, changes class depending on team/opponent composition, or according to map, with best map awareness, fastest reflexes, best knowledge of theirs and opponents classes and builds etc. will end up on top. The more listed qualities one possesses, the faster his rise will be.
Or, to put it simply: hypothetical person that can’t adapt to playing with 4 headless chickens against 5 headless chickens is no better then the said headless chickens.

Freelancer,

The problem is that as you rise, the pool of available players does NOT change. The pool is only who is queuing up at the moment. And maybe you might be the only high MMR in the queue. Your high MMR will force all the lower MMRs to be on your team to “balance” the average MMR.

You seem to think we don’t understand the theory and are simple minded.

Actually, perhaps it is you who are being simple by only looking at math theory, rather than seriously examining actual real-world confounding factors like: class makeup on teams regardless of individual’s MMR, temporary midpoint MMRs of new players that fool the system and introduce error, and the concurrency issue of who is in the queue when YOU are waiting to play.

Fair point. However, practical evidence suggests otherwise:
As I previously stated, I can’t remember last time I got anyone below r10 (or r20 for that matter), with average being ~r40-45. Today for example I was in matches with between 2 and 4 r60’s and I don’t recall seeing a single player below r30. Also, any of the other things that people in lower brackets complain about such as 5v4 matches, team mates who don’t know basic game mechanics and such… I can’t remember when I last saw any of it.
If I am not too lazy I might upload some SS’s so you’d see I’m not lying, but I’m afraid you’ll have to take my word for it for now.
So, as far as player pool size goes, we can all agree that they are quite small. However, my example, as anecdotal as it seems, still throws a long shadow over the suggestion that player pool is too small.

And about specific numbers, I’ve been actively monitoring my position after reset, which is probably the main reason I’m defending the system as much as I am, and from what I’ve gathered, at the moment you need to be in 94% to get to leaderboards (used to be ~92% few weeks back), so entire soloq “active” population numbers between 15 and 20k (talking about EU). Now, those are all the people who after the reset played at least 10 soloq matches… So you’d have to subtract allot of those due to not being active, not playing in same time slots and whatever else affects pool numbers, but after all said and done, if you are playing in peak hours, it’d still provide you with a healthy pool of players with deviancy of 10% from your current position.

Freeelancer.2860:

@Qaelyn: It wasn’t a strawman, it was a mockery of your rigidness. It was probably out of place, but put yourself in my shoes where almost every argument goes something along the lines of “I am better then others but I can’t rise because people I play with are bad”, and most of the people with that same argument scoff when someone mentions being more adaptable as their solution.

Well that may be justification for using a strawman, but it still was one. :P

At any rate, the fact that you use the term “ELO hell” and refer to yourself as being “lucky enough to evade” it means we aren’t really that far apart on this issue.

Freeelancer.2860:

Fair point. However, practical evidence suggests otherwise:
As I previously stated, I can’t remember last time I got anyone below r10 (or r20 for that matter), with average being ~r40-45. Today for example I was in matches with between 2 and 4 r60’s and I don’t recall seeing a single player below r30. Also, any of the other things that people in lower brackets complain about such as 5v4 matches, team mates who don’t know basic game mechanics and such… I can’t remember when I last saw any of it.
If I am not too lazy I might upload some SS’s so you’d see I’m not lying, but I’m afraid you’ll have to take my word for it for now.
So, as far as player pool size goes, we can all agree that they are quite small. However, my example, as anecdotal as it seems, still throws a long shadow over the suggestion that player pool is too small.

And about specific numbers, I’ve been actively monitoring my position after reset, which is probably the main reason I’m defending the system as much as I am, and from what I’ve gathered, at the moment you need to be in 94% to get to leaderboards (used to be ~92% few weeks back), so entire soloq “active” population numbers between 15 and 20k (talking about EU). Now, those are all the people who after the reset played at least 10 soloq matches… So you’d have to subtract allot of those due to not being active, not playing in same time slots and whatever else affects pool numbers, but after all said and done, if you are playing in peak hours, it’d still provide you with a healthy pool of players with deviancy of 10% from your current position.

I like this answer better. I will accept your evidence that if you play at peak concurrency times you will not tend to get the lowest rank people.

But of course, due to the Skyhammer exploit, we know that rank does not always correlate with experience in PvP, and thus probably does not correlate with MMR as well as people suspect.

This means that you still could get some pretty poor teammates (with decent rank) at the higher levels, and be forced to carry them or drop in the leaderboard.

I submit that you should pay close attention to the choices your teammates make in your higher level matches, and when you lose, recall if perhaps they were doing noobish things…regardless of their rank.

Qaelyn.7612:

At any rate, the fact that you use the term “ELO hell” and refer to yourself as being “lucky enough to evade” it means we aren’t really that far apart on this issue.

I am mostly referring to it as ELO hell because before reset soloq ratings were similar to teamq ratings, so if you aren’t in a good position from the get go chances of getting there were much worse then with the current system.
And I had no doubt that we had similar view. The only thing that we disagreed on was my claim that you will get to where you belong and that speed depends solely on individual player, while you claiming that the climb is highly impractical or maybe even improbable.

Silentshoes.1805:

I like this answer better. I will accept your evidence that if you play at peak concurrency times you will not tend to get the lowest rank people.

Well that is what I (and everyone else for that matter should) base all assumptions on. You know, I know, hell even developers them selves admitted that they dropped the ball and then shot it a few times for a good measure on entire PvP infrastructure, the result of which is abysmal PvP population..
At this point, blaming the system for encountering a guy with Phoenix rank while being teamed up with a guy who says something along the lines of “This isn’t Lions Arch…” while queuing in 5 in the morning is just plain silly.

Silentshoes.1805:

But of course, due to the Skyhammer exploit, we know that rank does not always correlate with experience in PvP, and thus probably does not correlate with MMR as well as people suspect.

This means that you still could get some pretty poor teammates (with decent rank) at the higher levels, and be forced to carry them or drop in the leaderboard.

I submit that you should pay close attention to the choices your teammates make in your higher level matches, and when you lose, recall if perhaps they were doing noobish things…regardless of their rank.

You have to remember that those Skyhammer farmers would still have to push their way requiring at least some semblance of skill (or a long lucky streak).
That being said, the usual “noob” plays I encounter are mostly pushing for 3cap after winning mid fight, a player still pushing for specific point after team agreed to change priorities, a hero who tries to push (not decap) far point 4 times in a row just to be shut down every time.. but most of the time people have all their bases covered both in matters of skill and in matters of tactics/strategy/awareness and sometimes even synergy.

Freeelancer.2860:

You know, I know, hell even developers them selves admitted that they dropped the ball and then shot it a few times for a good measure on entire PvP infrastructure

Indeed.