Guild Wars 2

Jjaja.7218:

Arheundel.6451:

Jjaja.7218:

Hello! I’m Jjaja, I play Necromancer for a top five North American team (Jesus Beat Us Once; JBUO) and at the time of this posting I have around 376 qualifying points. Hopefully, these “credentials” lend some credibility to what I’m about to say. This is all strictly from my experience in tPvP.

Profession Balance: (Obviously every profession could use bug fixes and tweaks)
Guardian: Very Strong
Elementalist: Strong
Thief: Slightly Strong
Mesmer: Balanced
Necromancer: Balanced
Ranger: Balanced
Warrior: Slightly Weak
Engineer: Weak

Profession Representation: (There isn’t a profession we never see)
Guardian: Very High
Elementalist: Very High
Mesmer: High
Thief: Medium High
Necromancer: Medium High
Ranger: Medium
Warrior: Medium
Engineer: Medium Low

Weapon Swap Change:
Really hurts classes with no built in swiftness on their weapon sets. Otherwise, this is a good change. Why? It evens the playing field for professions who don’t have multiple viable weapon sets. It should be kept until all (or the majority) of the weapon sets are viable amongst all professions.

Paid Ticket Entry:
Needs to be lowered. It seriously reduces the competitive capacity of paids if some teams or players have to do four hours of frees just to do one paid. I suggest lowering the requirement from 5 to 3.

I’ve stopped reading……

The Necromancer forums are a non-stop cryfest for buffs. I don’t believe we need any buffs. I’ve asked quite a few other top players for their opinion on this list and they seem to agree.

Cryfest for buffs, are you serious?
This is my tPvP professions representation:

1) Guardian = very high ( teams running with double guardian are common)
2) Thief= very high ( 7 teams out of 10 got a thief, 2 teams got double thief )
3) Necromancer= very high ( wells spammer is a must-have these days)
4) Mesmer – very high ( extremely strong, double mesmer teams are not unusual)
5) Elementalist = high (all you see is d/d glass cannon , occasionaly you may see a staff)
6) Ranger = high ( the latest patch has seen a rapid increase in the number)
7) Warrior = medium ( decent roamer and great team fighter)
8) Engineer = low ( not many seen lately, bunker engy are quite rare these days)

Anyway how you can say that thief is medium/high and ele very high..is behind me, you most certainly will see teams with no eles at all compared to teams with no thieves

The nerfs moreso affected PvE, PvP Engies mostly received buffs.[/quote]

This is true, however, bunker engi’s have definitely seen more devestating nerfs than any other spec. Then again, I have to agree that during BWE they were the most over-powered build out there. But nerfing smoke bomb in tick speed and radius, and then elixir r in CD and by reducing downed health pool, plus nerfs to runes of earth have made engi bunker less and less viable.

Meanwhile, guardian bunker ability remains almost untouched and ele bunker is still as viable as ever. I just think it’s an interesting evolution.

Then again, I think even at this point engi bunkers are highly underrated.

When someone writes after 4 -5 months of game play that something is not viable because top teams do not do it, I have to stop right there. Because honestly how long ago was it that necros were not even seeing play time of this magnitude.

Point is everyday people are discovering this game. I will agree that there are some “bad builds” but every build in this game is not discovered or fully utilized. We are still in the discovery phase.

@Power

Warrior
Immune to conditions? If it was at a 180 second cool down then yes that wouldn’t be broken. It’d be better if movement skills cleansed slows and immobilize so that Chain CC can still mess them up.

I definitely agree with Ranger lacking A LOT in big team fights though.

I think Ele is far stronger than Guardian atm though.
Would be great if warriors had some way to survive more than ~3 seconds of Necro AoE.
And although I feel Necro is in a balanced spot (disregarding signet res), its the only viable glass ranged dps making having one almost necessary.
Rangers? Forced into using evasion tank/trap melee builds which are meh.
Engies? Just got their rdps toolkit nerfed by 30% LOL! Forced into bunker/bomb spec.
Thieves? A good hybrid melee+ranged, but P/P is still incredibly underpowered and shortbow can’t even put a dent on a good guardian(ever since the 15% nerf) unlike a Necro. You can forget about double bow or bow+p/p.
Warriors? Lol.

mesmer balanced, seriously?

Khayn.6475:

mesmer balanced, seriously?

Yes, more than other classes, for example Guardians, Thiefs or D/D Elemetalists.

Powerr.3649:

Engineer bunkers like nerva mentioned are strong and we are thinking about running one ourselves potentially once people catch on how to counter us.

ahh i was actually talking about ranger bunkers. i run a versatile 0/0/30/10/30 regen/vigor build with almost 1k condition damage. havent had issues holding a point against two people (yet). it’s highly mobile and has tons of survivability in large fights, all the while stacking bleeds like a champ.

Powerr.3649:

-deathmatch and moba game modes

and yus plz

juanma.9813:

Khayn.6475:

mesmer balanced, seriously?

Yes, more than other classes, for example Guardians, Thiefs or D/D Elemetalists.

you have no idea of what you’re talking about, Guardians and Mesmers are the godclasses, yoou will never see a pro team without having both of them. Thiefs and D/D are good but not essential

I wouldn’t queue for a paid without a guardian and a mesmer, ever. Those two classes are the core of every team.

As a mesmer, i’m not happy with the class balance at the moment. We pretty much have only one (insanely strong) viable build, typical 20 20 0 0 30 shatter. Every other build is just subpar or downright horrible, and everyone thinking otherwise is just delusional. The buff to dazzling and shatter might stacking was completely uncalled for, and absolutely OP. On top of that, utilities just too good to pass up for ANY team, portal and time warp. I won’t count illusion of life because it’s situational and with the new utilities locking thingie i doubt it will be in the majority of mesmers’ setups.

Bottom line is: mesmer balanced my kitten

Bloodbath.7084:

Mesmer: VERY strong.

Yes, i used caps there on purpose. Anyone that does not see this as the very best prof needs to properly play one. In the hands of a good PvPer – and i think of myself as one, with over 17 years of PvP on all genres on my belt – it’s a mean killing machine. And support machine. And escape artist. So powerful it hurts.

Guardian: Very Strong

Not a mesmer, but still a very powerful profession with a wide range of viable specs.

Thief: Very Strong

Properly played thieves are not only very dangerous finishers with huge burst but also amazing at evading/harassing and closing distances aswell as very good stompers and rezzers. Anyone that thinks they’re not top notch needs some serious lessons on combat dynamics.

Elementalist: Strong

While the Ele bunker specs (and downed state) are a bit too strong at the moment they do tend to be dead rather quickly when specced otherwise. Can be deadly vs some combos but facing a player that knows the class they can be easy prey as DPS. Hybrid specs can be a real menace in the right hands though.

Necromancer: Balanced

Necros still have some issues that need to be addressed but overall it’s a class that’s very close to being balanced.

Ranger: Balanced

Before the latest patch i’d disagree but from my experience since the 14th the Ranger has indeed been buffed to a point that i’d say it’s close to being balanced. A lot of issues still with pet pathing, bugged abilities and perhaps the class that needs the more focus to play and be successful with as pure DPS.

Warrior: Wouldn’t call it weak, but a bit limited at the moment. Their ability to quickly shift the weight of battles can be decisive when played properly but i’ll admit, could do with a bit more variety.

Engineer: Since the latest patch i’ve faced some really dangerous Engis and since i don’t play the class, i’ll leave it to whoever does to judge.

5 star post.

I want to say that I’m certainly not a pro by any stretch – I play entirely hotjoin sPvP and only just hit rank 30, my play is no doubt quite scattered and clumsy compared to those with more experience or practice, and I usually run really janky non-meta unorthodox builds. So I don’t know how much it counts for, but your post captures my pvp experience just about 100% perfectly.

Good mesmers are just mindblowing. Playing against a good one feels like they’re doing everything at once – what a good player can do with a mesmer is just jaw-dropping. Top of the pile for sure.

I have great success with my guardian as well. I’ve actually played her the least of all my characters, because I find her almost too easy – she’s got enough cc, mobility, damage, and defense to make most encounters a piece of cake.

Thieves, I’ll admit, still ruin my kitten consistently. I have a hard time tracking them through stealth even though most of my builds have an aoe emphasis. Their plentiful gap closers, built in evades, and massive burst damage mean that I often take much more damage from them than I can deal. I can defeat them on my necro by spamming marks, and I can escape them on my ele with my mobility, but all of my other setups are helpless against them. What bugs me about thieves is that unlike the mesmers where talent really shines through, I think I lose to terrible heartseeker spam rank 5 thieves almost as often as I lose to awesome rank 40 thieves, which, while I haven’t played one myself, strikes me as indicative of a balance issue.

I run an ele as my main. I think they’re in an interesting place. D/D is on the strong side, but I’d hardly call it op in comparison to some other classes. Other weapon sets for them strike me as balanced to on the weak side. (Eles do still have unparalleled condition removal and excellent mobility on their worst setups, though). I’ve seen D/D as a really effective bunker, and while they can go burst, its just not as good as what other classes can do, and it sacrifices much more in terms of survivability. Staff is an excellent support weapon and it can do just barely decent AoE damage if you can get into position to do it, which, as an ele, you often can. Its cast speeds are prohibitively long, though, and I’d really like to be able to play the staff playstyle without feeling locked into support. I don’t really know what scepter and focus are for, and I believe I’m in good company on that sentiment.

(Just for reference, I play a tanky dps staff power cantrip ele, a hybrid axe/staff necro, a hybrid shortbow/greatsword trap ranger, and a power burst sword/scepter meditation guardian. I also played a power rifle/grenade engineer, but I’m having some trouble finding a new build and niche for him post grenade nerf).

Can anyone link the spec for this OP mesmer with runes n stuff? Or any videos of where I can see it in action.

Jjaja.7218:

Guardian: Very Strong
Elementalist: Strong
Thief: Slightly Strong
Mesmer: Balanced
Necromancer: Balanced
Ranger: Balanced
Warrior: Slightly Weak
Engineer: Weak

I fell that putting a Very Strong (Expec after might patch) on mesmers would be much more correct…also necros could be listed as Strong (Come on you you can’t say that a necro is comparable to a ranger), don’t forget the double hp bar, plague form, armor and so on…a necro is potentially strong against both burst and condition dmg being able to negate them with the same build while dealing still a decent cond dmg, i would put them in the same line as eles…and warriors are just bad (Huge dps but that’s all, if someone is able to dodge they become pretty much useless, just good to destroy treb maybe…), i’d rather have an engi than a war in my team….

I feel that Necromancer and Thief at the moment are in the Very Strong Category. Especially Necromancer. The Meta of the game at the moment being focussed on AoE winning the day has to put them close to the most powerful at this time…

Papaganoosh (SPvP Officer, The Unnamed EU)

http://www.the-unnamed.com/spvpapp – recruiting skilled players for TPvP

i’m a PvEr not a PvPer but i can’t help but comment to this thread. i have to think that there are people who are not verbose in expressing their opinions but play well. labeling a char strong very strong weak without telling why wont cut it. i suggest OP should just play the game and be good and pwn. is kobe bryant discussing theories behind forward, center and guard positions? no. he’s just good at shooting the basket.

Regards,

Its amazing how different the view is from the top compared to the forums, on Mesmers especially. I agree with the OPs sentiments, they echo my own personal experience and what I hear from other top players. Long cooldowns and balanced/easily mitigated burst are what keep mesmers in line with other professions.

As a thief I find them extremely predictable despite my squishiness, and most fights end on the result of “who messed up first”. That’s what balance should be.

So I have a question for top tournament players. Are any of the top teams planning on running an all mesmer team? If so, which teams will be doing this and can you stream it please? I’d like to see how an all mesmer team performs.

Israel.7056:

So I have a question for top tournament players. Are any of the top teams planning on running an all mesmer team? If so, which teams will be doing this and can you stream it please? I’d like to see how an all mesmer team performs.

Well at last let ppl go with 1 bunker u.u

Archaon.6245:

Well at last let ppl go with 1 bunker u.u

I feel like that would ruin the experiment.

Mesmer: Insane
Guardian: Strong
Elementalist: Balanced
Thief: Balanced
Engineer: Balanced
Necromancer: Balanced
Warrior: Between balanced and a bit weak
Ranger: Weak

Israel.7056:

Archaon.6245:

Well at last let ppl go with 1 bunker u.u

I feel like that would ruin the experiment.

just play a bunker mesmer, easy !

I’d personally like to see a five shatter mesmer team all running the same build that everyone is complaining about right now. I think it would be interesting to see what happens. Logic dictates that if the Mesmer is truly more powerful in tPvP than any other class then five Mesmers should also be more powerful than any other conceivable combination of classes. Or is my logic flawed somehow?

Jjaja.7218:

Hello! I’m Jjaja, I play Necromancer for a top five North American team (Jesus Beat Us Once; JBUO) and at the time of this posting I have around 376 qualifying points. Hopefully, these “credentials” lend some credibility to what I’m about to say. This is all strictly from my experience in tPvP.

Profession Balance: (Obviously every profession could use bug fixes and tweaks)
Guardian: Very Strong
Elementalist: Strong
Thief: Slightly Strong
Mesmer: Balanced
Necromancer: Balanced
Ranger: Balanced
Warrior: Slightly Weak
Engineer: Weak

Profession Representation: (There isn’t a profession we never see)
Guardian: Very High
Elementalist: Very High
Mesmer: High
Thief: Medium High
Necromancer: Medium High
Ranger: Medium
Warrior: Medium
Engineer: Medium Low

Weapon Swap Change:
Really hurts classes with no built in swiftness on their weapon sets. Otherwise, this is a good change. Why? It evens the playing field for professions who don’t have multiple viable weapon sets. It should be kept until all (or the majority) of the weapon sets are viable amongst all professions.

Paid Ticket Entry:
Needs to be lowered. It seriously reduces the competitive capacity of paids if some teams or players have to do four hours of frees just to do one paid. I suggest lowering the requirement from 5 to 3.

I believe you have been carried for so long by fantastic teamates that the meta from your perspective is shaded with bias and mastery stagnation. (its when you stop adjusting to chase the meta)

So from your perspective I agree with you. But from my perspective, your ratings are a bit off. Populations seem similar.

And Necro most certainly is a hard carry support in need of diversivfication and a complete overhaul of the Minion AI. Necro is far too complicated for almost no pay off in competitive ability. Without a strong team, necro is simply not competive, and even then, can be replaced by stronger classes that are easier to play.

You are probably better than I am at Necro with your team. But if you spent some time with PuGs your perspective would shatter. Being carried by a fantastic team focuses your perspective into a fragile space where success has become an assumption and your drive to chase the meta for further mastery is nearly gone. Because clearly with so much success you have won the game. Right?

But that just means someone else will control the meta, since you no longer want to.

And before you get huffy, there are a thousand studies on the effects of success on cognitive functions. So congrats on all the QPs but science says your success is a crutch and taints your perspective with bias.

XiL.4318:

And before you get huffy, there are a thousand studies on the effects of success on cognitive functions. So congrats on all the QPs but science says your success is a crutch and taints your perspective with bias.

People and their psychoanalytical pseudo-science, so ready judge others with unequivocal judgement on shaky grounds and not themselves. XD

He is a good necro and is sharing his perspective. Deal it with.

XiL.4318:

Jjaja.7218:

Hello! I’m Jjaja, I play Necromancer for a top five North American team (Jesus Beat Us Once; JBUO) and at the time of this posting I have around 376 qualifying points. Hopefully, these “credentials” lend some credibility to what I’m about to say. This is all strictly from my experience in tPvP.

Profession Balance: (Obviously every profession could use bug fixes and tweaks)
Guardian: Very Strong
Elementalist: Strong
Thief: Slightly Strong
Mesmer: Balanced
Necromancer: Balanced
Ranger: Balanced
Warrior: Slightly Weak
Engineer: Weak

Profession Representation: (There isn’t a profession we never see)
Guardian: Very High
Elementalist: Very High
Mesmer: High
Thief: Medium High
Necromancer: Medium High
Ranger: Medium
Warrior: Medium
Engineer: Medium Low

Weapon Swap Change:
Really hurts classes with no built in swiftness on their weapon sets. Otherwise, this is a good change. Why? It evens the playing field for professions who don’t have multiple viable weapon sets. It should be kept until all (or the majority) of the weapon sets are viable amongst all professions.

Paid Ticket Entry:
Needs to be lowered. It seriously reduces the competitive capacity of paids if some teams or players have to do four hours of frees just to do one paid. I suggest lowering the requirement from 5 to 3.

I believe you have been carried for so long by fantastic teamates that the meta from your perspective is shaded with bias and mastery stagnation. (its when you stop adjusting to chase the meta)

So from your perspective I agree with you. But from my perspective, your ratings are a bit off. Populations seem similar.

And Necro most certainly is a hard carry support in need of diversivfication and a complete overhaul of the Minion AI. Necro is far too complicated for almost no pay off in competitive ability. Without a strong team, necro is simply not competive, and even then, can be replaced by stronger classes that are easier to play.

You are probably better than I am at Necro with your team. But if you spent some time with PuGs your perspective would shatter. Being carried by a fantastic team focuses your perspective into a fragile space where success has become an assumption and your drive to chase the meta for further mastery is nearly gone. Because clearly with so much success you have won the game. Right?

But that just means someone else will control the meta, since you no longer want to.

And before you get huffy, there are a thousand studies on the effects of success on cognitive functions. So congrats on all the QPs but science says your success is a crutch and taints your perspective with bias.

Strong post, the first few lines tells me you have played games with real meta perhaps with ranking where people could not really be carried like this farm based system. I main a necro pug 100% of the time also, the carried necros I have seen are not impressive they are just rez sig bots. The necros that pug alot (not many) are actually good.

Perhaps the OP is good no idea but I just cant respect based on QPs, if its not rated matches its no indication of skill.

Interesting post, I largely agree with you OP.

It pains me to see engineer so weak. Rifle engineer should be one of the most fun things to play in the game with the build options open to it but its just ended up being worse than the other roaming alternatives (even 100b warriors!).

My team doesn’t have your credentials but we are doing paid and free tournaments regularly.

I don’t often post about balance because it’s ever changing but right now I am a little fed up.

Elementalists and Guardians are found in most high level teams. Guardians are one trick ponies, build to last long enough for the heavies to arrive but elementalists can be brought in highly destructive forms as well. I’ve seen five ele teams actually do alright.

Thieves are the perennial nightmare. I recently tried to learn a new class on top of my usual stable and in hot join you are almost always faced with 2 highly mobile, highly survivable assassins. Make no mistake, the existence of the thief class is the only cause of the current bunker heavy/AOE meta. Without them control classes would be in demand, hammer warriors and rifle engies would be cc’ing those bunkers off the point and wearing them down, impervious to counter strikes. To be clear, I actually don’t think thieves are all that OP but the possibility that you might lost a paid tourney because the other team brings backstab thieves (and I’ve seen some bloody amazing ones – seem to be teleporting every 2 seconds) pushes teams to use the 2 bunker set up.

Warriors are weak. I haven’t played one since beta – all they seem to be good for is rapid roaming and arriving late to fights. One notable thing we’ve done is had a necro with plague tank the entire enemy team and then have a warrior with cds burst them down. 2v4 thank you very much.

Rangers seem to have become a lot more usable, we see them a lot more in the harrying/duellist role although obviously here mesmer is still king.

Blame the format, blame the players. All I know is that things aren’t particularly enjoyable in about half of the matches. Perhaps matchmaking will solve some of this but try telling the poor kitten on the bunker guardian that things are going to get better when he is at GY for the whole match with no one but the odd potshotting thief to keep him company or the necro who’s only brought for res signet and AOE nuking. The meta is stale. We want dynamic activity.

Sorry for the less than formatted reply, really a ramble on my part.

i would say keep the speculation to a minimum statistical analysis is probably done regularly by the devs etc to get a non bias view.. humans have a very bias view on stats. some people saying things like all these classes are op but this one class is balance or all these classes are overplayed but this one is balance.. have very much misunderstood the nature of statistics.. if you were too look at regular spvp for example you would see that the majority of players are thiefs and mesmers. but this data alone is meaningless for example we dont know what the chances of a team winning is based on class alone, if for example we had strong data that indicates that the team with the most mesmers for example is 80% likely to win. then yes its obvious that class is unbalanced unfortunately spvp players range widely in skill giving an unacceptable p value. in paid tourneys at least you can assume players are of a similar skill lvl, most of the differences will come from tactics and group synergy and communication. without ranting too much basically what im saying is that, you could have a highly overpowered class that is not over represented due to general perception of that class.. doesnt mean it shouldnt be nerfed though.

Funny thing is this list would change wildly if the gametype wasn’t always point-control, and instead was say… deathmatch.

wish they would add new game types >_>;;

Gintoki.6405:

i would say keep the speculation to a minimum statistical analysis is probably done regularly by the devs etc to get a non bias view.. humans have a very bias view on stats. some people saying things like all these classes are op but this one class is balance or all these classes are overplayed but this one is balance.. have very much misunderstood the nature of statistics.. if you were too look at regular spvp for example you would see that the majority of players are thiefs and mesmers. but this data alone is meaningless for example we dont know what the chances of a team winning is based on class alone, if for example we had strong data that indicates that the team with the most mesmers for example is 80% likely to win. then yes its obvious that class is unbalanced unfortunately spvp players range widely in skill giving an unacceptable p value. in paid tourneys at least you can assume players are of a similar skill lvl, most of the differences will come from tactics and group synergy and communication. without ranting too much basically what im saying is that, you could have a highly overpowered class that is not over represented due to general perception of that class.. doesnt mean it shouldnt be nerfed though.

i really hate these “devs know best” arguments. If devs were smarter than their players and made proper use of the “data” they had every single MMO released to date would be thriving and successful.

Instead you have people complaining about something, fanbois saying it’s fine – devs are working on it, game is only x months old, have patience – then a few months later the game is dead or F2P.

Jjaja.7218:

…Mesmer: Balanced…

isnt on this patch WITHOUT 25 stacks of might

Yep, just another fine example of how balanced mesmers are, even before solo might stacking was possible.

Xom.9264:

XiL.4318:

Jjaja.7218:

Hello! I’m Jjaja, I play Necromancer for a top five North American team (Jesus Beat Us Once; JBUO) and at the time of this posting I have around 376 qualifying points. Hopefully, these “credentials” lend some credibility to what I’m about to say. This is all strictly from my experience in tPvP.

Profession Balance: (Obviously every profession could use bug fixes and tweaks)
Guardian: Very Strong
Elementalist: Strong
Thief: Slightly Strong
Mesmer: Balanced
Necromancer: Balanced
Ranger: Balanced
Warrior: Slightly Weak
Engineer: Weak

Profession Representation: (There isn’t a profession we never see)
Guardian: Very High
Elementalist: Very High
Mesmer: High
Thief: Medium High
Necromancer: Medium High
Ranger: Medium
Warrior: Medium
Engineer: Medium Low

Weapon Swap Change:
Really hurts classes with no built in swiftness on their weapon sets. Otherwise, this is a good change. Why? It evens the playing field for professions who don’t have multiple viable weapon sets. It should be kept until all (or the majority) of the weapon sets are viable amongst all professions.

Paid Ticket Entry:
Needs to be lowered. It seriously reduces the competitive capacity of paids if some teams or players have to do four hours of frees just to do one paid. I suggest lowering the requirement from 5 to 3.

I believe you have been carried for so long by fantastic teamates that the meta from your perspective is shaded with bias and mastery stagnation. (its when you stop adjusting to chase the meta)

So from your perspective I agree with you. But from my perspective, your ratings are a bit off. Populations seem similar.

And Necro most certainly is a hard carry support in need of diversivfication and a complete overhaul of the Minion AI. Necro is far too complicated for almost no pay off in competitive ability. Without a strong team, necro is simply not competive, and even then, can be replaced by stronger classes that are easier to play.

You are probably better than I am at Necro with your team. But if you spent some time with PuGs your perspective would shatter. Being carried by a fantastic team focuses your perspective into a fragile space where success has become an assumption and your drive to chase the meta for further mastery is nearly gone. Because clearly with so much success you have won the game. Right?

But that just means someone else will control the meta, since you no longer want to.

And before you get huffy, there are a thousand studies on the effects of success on cognitive functions. So congrats on all the QPs but science says your success is a crutch and taints your perspective with bias.

Strong post, the first few lines tells me you have played games with real meta perhaps with ranking where people could not really be carried like this farm based system. I main a necro pug 100% of the time also, the carried necros I have seen are not impressive they are just rez sig bots. The necros that pug alot (not many) are actually good.

Perhaps the OP is good no idea but I just cant respect based on QPs, if its not rated matches its no indication of skill.

I find it hard to accept that I’m “carried” since the nerfs people are asking for on Necromancers (i.e. hybrid well build) is predicated on the build I introduced into the meta. Regarding resurrection signets… you can blame Powerr for starting that one. Necromancers are not underpowered by any stretch; although, they could use bug fixes and tweaks. Remember though, lack of build diversity IS NOT synonymous with imbalance.

Balance should always be done from the top to the bottom. Your experiences in PuGs or hot-joins should be disregarded because it does not always represent the meta or the full potential of any profession composition. Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.

If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.

So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.

Kesil.8034:

Jjaja.7218:

…Mesmer: Balanced…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpE2k3ZN1vU

isnt on this patch WITHOUT 25 stacks of might

This is incredibly annoying. Mesmers have the MOST predictable burst out of any profession (yes even above warriors); you can tell just from the amount of clones that are up. What does the Engineer do though? He wastes dodge rolls for whatever reason before the fight even really begins and as far as I can tell, is using no stun breaker/stability/freedom/invulnerability (think WoW arena trinket).

Jjaja.7218:

Kesil.8034:

Jjaja.7218:

…Mesmer: Balanced…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpE2k3ZN1vU

isnt on this patch WITHOUT 25 stacks of might

This is incredibly annoying. Mesmers have the MOST predictable burst out of any profession (yes even above warriors); you can tell just from the amount of clones that are up. What does the Engineer do though? He wastes dodge rolls for whatever reason before the fight even really begins and as far as I can tell, is using no stun breaker/stability/freedom/invulnerability (think WoW arena trinket).

I’m aware that’s Teldo and he’s a famous Engineer from Europe but I don’t think the European scene is up to par with the North American one.

And they also have the most “I messed up” buttons out of all professions. Do you see
Rangers, Warriors, or Thieves having more than one? No? Our incentive to attack is screwed the moment Balanced Stance or Shadow Step gets forced out.

That’s just the standard for Mesmer right now (Extremely high when you use Shatter Macro which is the most broken POS combo in-game ever). You are BAD if you lose to a Warrior, Thief, or anything that isn’t a Ranger or a Mesmer. Seriously, any 5-year old kid can probably play this low-skill cap class and be successful with it.

If you want to know what being carried actually means Q up for a free tourny solo with your Necro. Until you clearly understand what your team provides you, I doubt you will be able to rationalize anything beyond the word “carry” and the impression you get from a warped view of it.

Q solo for about a solid week without playing with your team or any other.

Then get back to me with your newly found perspective.

Jjaja.7218:

Xom.9264:

XiL.4318:

Jjaja.7218:

Hello! I’m Jjaja, I play Necromancer for a top five North American team (Jesus Beat Us Once; JBUO) and at the time of this posting I have around 376 qualifying points. Hopefully, these “credentials” lend some credibility to what I’m about to say. This is all strictly from my experience in tPvP.

Profession Balance: (Obviously every profession could use bug fixes and tweaks)
Guardian: Very Strong
Elementalist: Strong
Thief: Slightly Strong
Mesmer: Balanced
Necromancer: Balanced
Ranger: Balanced
Warrior: Slightly Weak
Engineer: Weak

Profession Representation: (There isn’t a profession we never see)
Guardian: Very High
Elementalist: Very High
Mesmer: High
Thief: Medium High
Necromancer: Medium High
Ranger: Medium
Warrior: Medium
Engineer: Medium Low

Weapon Swap Change:
Really hurts classes with no built in swiftness on their weapon sets. Otherwise, this is a good change. Why? It evens the playing field for professions who don’t have multiple viable weapon sets. It should be kept until all (or the majority) of the weapon sets are viable amongst all professions.

Paid Ticket Entry:
Needs to be lowered. It seriously reduces the competitive capacity of paids if some teams or players have to do four hours of frees just to do one paid. I suggest lowering the requirement from 5 to 3.

I believe you have been carried for so long by fantastic teamates that the meta from your perspective is shaded with bias and mastery stagnation. (its when you stop adjusting to chase the meta)

So from your perspective I agree with you. But from my perspective, your ratings are a bit off. Populations seem similar.

And Necro most certainly is a hard carry support in need of diversivfication and a complete overhaul of the Minion AI. Necro is far too complicated for almost no pay off in competitive ability. Without a strong team, necro is simply not competive, and even then, can be replaced by stronger classes that are easier to play.

You are probably better than I am at Necro with your team. But if you spent some time with PuGs your perspective would shatter. Being carried by a fantastic team focuses your perspective into a fragile space where success has become an assumption and your drive to chase the meta for further mastery is nearly gone. Because clearly with so much success you have won the game. Right?

But that just means someone else will control the meta, since you no longer want to.

And before you get huffy, there are a thousand studies on the effects of success on cognitive functions. So congrats on all the QPs but science says your success is a crutch and taints your perspective with bias.

Strong post, the first few lines tells me you have played games with real meta perhaps with ranking where people could not really be carried like this farm based system. I main a necro pug 100% of the time also, the carried necros I have seen are not impressive they are just rez sig bots. The necros that pug alot (not many) are actually good.

Perhaps the OP is good no idea but I just cant respect based on QPs, if its not rated matches its no indication of skill.

I find it hard to accept that I’m “carried” since the nerfs people are asking for on Necromancers (i.e. hybrid well build) is predicated on the build I introduced into the meta. Regarding resurrection signets… you can blame Powerr for starting that one. Necromancers are not underpowered by any stretch; although, they could use bug fixes and tweaks. Remember though, lack of build diversity IS NOT synonymous with imbalance.

Balance should always be done from the top to the bottom. Your experiences in PuGs or hot-joins should be disregarded because it does not always represent the meta or the full potential of any profession composition. Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

Yeah this made me laugh. Anyone who has played JBUO over and over knows jjaja hardly gets carried, I feel it’s the other way around. And for the mesmer argument, the burst potential that they have is incredibly strong atm. This can all be nullified by a well timed dodge, and it’s really not hard to see when you need to do that. Usually I don’t have trouble with mesmers as a necro.

daydream.2938:

Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.

If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.

So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.

THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.

Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER

any questions?

Regarding Guardians: How much of that is non-bunker? Minus bunker, it seems to be a different story, sadly.

XiL.4318:

daydream.2938:

Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.

If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.

So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.

THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.

Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER

any questions?

I understand this. But its a seperate point.

Some classes are harder to use than others. This is true.
So, in the hands of an average player some classes do poorly , and others well.
Even IF, at a high level of play this difference vanishs. Or even reverses.

The bulk of any given population on a bell curve , almost by defintion hovers round the middle. So , amongst the average players who represent MOST players , certain classes show up as performing better. Though not necessarily these same classes/specs at high end play.

This is why top players often post ‘l2p’ etc to lower tiered players. Because the complaints those players have are easily solved by there knowledge of the game/skill.

HOwever, sometimes nerfing those classes that are doing well amongst average players because of ease of use makes those classes useless at high end. (not talking about thief specifically just making a general point).

What you have is two curves.
The classes ‘TRUE BALANCE’ which is reflected when played ideally. This means it shows up more at high end.

The classes ‘ease of use’ which reflects how it performs in the hands of the average player.

To elaborate with a hypothetical example ( not saying the classess are really reflected like this). John and Susan , both average players. One uses a thief, the other a Ele.
Thief wins the bulk of the time, despite equal skill. Is this evidence of Op?

Jane and Brain are both elite players. When they face of with the same classes they win about evenly.
This pattern shows up over a statistically significant sample size. What you have is evidence that one class is easier to use, NOT, that its more powerful.

The classes that perform better amongst the bulk of the population, arent overpowered necessarily. (they might ALSO be overpowered but this would be reflected in high end play).

This is actually a problem, but not a problem with balance per se.

And at the other poster.
What im saying is its an unknown fact. There is an answer, just because its not quantified doesn’t mean its not possible to do it.

Surely you see how its analgalous to comparing the nba to euroleague basketball.
Though for all i know europe is better. Or they are the same. Or NA is better. We don’t know which state it is. BUT we do know its one of those three states. WE also know that if we had them compete in lan tournaments(so latency wasnt a variable) over a large sample size the answer would show up in the data.

=). hope that clarifies what i mean.

There was no need to defend your position. Being wrong is how we learn.

The meta starts at Rank 1. As proven here in GW2 without new players the competitive meta is a tree falling in the woods.

daydream.2938:

XiL.4318:

daydream.2938:

Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.

If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.

So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.

THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.

Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER

any questions?

I understand this. But its a seperate point.

Some classes are harder to use than others. This is true.
So, in the hands of an average player some classes do poorly , and others well.
Even IF, at a high level of play this difference vanishs. Or even reverses.

The bulk of any given population on a bell curve , almost by defintion hovers round the middle. So , amongst the average players who represent MOST players , certain classes show up as performing better. Though not necessarily these same classes/specs at high end play.

This is why top players often post ‘l2p’ etc to lower tiered players. Because the complaints those players have are easily solved by there knowledge of the game/skill.

HOwever, sometimes nerfing those classes that are doing well amongst average players because of ease of use makes those classes useless at high end. (not talking about thief specifically just making a general point).

What you have is two curves.
The classes ‘TRUE BALANCE’ which is reflected when played ideally. This means it shows up more at high end.

The classes ‘ease of use’ which reflects how it performs in the hands of the average player.

To elaborate with a hypothetical example ( not saying the classess are really reflected like this). John and Susan , both average players. One uses a thief, the other a Ele.
Thief wins the bulk of the time, despite equal skill. Is this evidence of Op?

Jane and Brain are both elite players. When they face of with the same classes they win about evenly.
This pattern shows up over a statistically significant sample size. What you have is evidence that one class is easier to use, NOT, that its more powerful.

The classes that perform better amongst the bulk of the population, arent overpowered necessarily. (they might ALSO be overpowered but this would be reflected in high end play).

This is actually a problem, but not a problem with balance per se.

And at the other poster.
What im saying is its an unknown fact. There is an answer, just because its not quantified doesn’t mean its not possible to do it.

Surely you see how its analgalous to comparing the nba to euroleague basketball.
Though for all i know europe is better. Or they are the same. Or NA is better. We don’t know which state it is. BUT we do know its one of those three states. WE also know that if we had them compete in lan tournaments(so latency wasnt a variable) over a large sample size the answer would show up in the data.

=). hope that clarifies what i mean.

You have absolutely no idea what you are saying.

One of a possible 3 outcomes are true, but claiming you can make that statement FACT without the means to competitvely compare the regions makes your statement false.

Pyrial.2917:

daydream.2938:

XiL.4318:

daydream.2938:

Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.

If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.

So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.

THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.

Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER

any questions?

I understand this. But its a seperate point.

Some classes are harder to use than others. This is true.
So, in the hands of an average player some classes do poorly , and others well.
Even IF, at a high level of play this difference vanishs. Or even reverses.

The bulk of any given population on a bell curve , almost by defintion hovers round the middle. So , amongst the average players who represent MOST players , certain classes show up as performing better. Though not necessarily these same classes/specs at high end play.

This is why top players often post ‘l2p’ etc to lower tiered players. Because the complaints those players have are easily solved by there knowledge of the game/skill.

HOwever, sometimes nerfing those classes that are doing well amongst average players because of ease of use makes those classes useless at high end. (not talking about thief specifically just making a general point).

What you have is two curves.
The classes ‘TRUE BALANCE’ which is reflected when played ideally. This means it shows up more at high end.

The classes ‘ease of use’ which reflects how it performs in the hands of the average player.

To elaborate with a hypothetical example ( not saying the classess are really reflected like this). John and Susan , both average players. One uses a thief, the other a Ele.
Thief wins the bulk of the time, despite equal skill. Is this evidence of Op?

Jane and Brain are both elite players. When they face of with the same classes they win about evenly.
This pattern shows up over a statistically significant sample size. What you have is evidence that one class is easier to use, NOT, that its more powerful.

The classes that perform better amongst the bulk of the population, arent overpowered necessarily. (they might ALSO be overpowered but this would be reflected in high end play).

This is actually a problem, but not a problem with balance per se.

And at the other poster.
What im saying is its an unknown fact. There is an answer, just because its not quantified doesn’t mean its not possible to do it.

Surely you see how its analgalous to comparing the nba to euroleague basketball.
Though for all i know europe is better. Or they are the same. Or NA is better. We don’t know which state it is. BUT we do know its one of those three states. WE also know that if we had them compete in lan tournaments(so latency wasnt a variable) over a large sample size the answer would show up in the data.

=). hope that clarifies what i mean.

You have absolutely no idea what you are saying.

:P. Thats not an argument. Something can be a fact without being known or knowable. Its a fact that there is OR isnt life outside of earth. But we may never know . So, thats the sense in which i mean its a statement about a fact condition :P.

IM not claiming i can make it fact without a means to compare. Im saying, whatever is the case is a fact. WE just dont know.
=). Anyways, this is unrelated to thread. maybe just agree to disagree.

a guardian/mesmer/elementalist/(necromancer)/X is what 95 % of the paids team have.
having no guardian means no stabillity. no stabillity means no properly stomps/revive/hold points.

having no mesmer means that u dont have a portal and that you always have a risk of being backcapped. or you need to stay on the point 24/7 wich means aswell that your team will have most of times 4 vs 5 situations in a team fight (mainly because they have a mesmer with a portal in their base) and you’ll lose ALOT if u dont have a mesmer. no time warp, no illusion of life, no shatters in a team fight that hurt for 5k + each person thats standing close to each other, and thats ALOT! a mesmer is a game changer if played right.

having no elementalist means that u can’t have a warrior in ur team because they have barely and condition cleanse and most of times the opponent has a necromancer too. so if he pumps condition on ur warrior. and u have no elementalist i think its goodgame for him. And having no elementalist means aswell that u won’t be getting sustained heal wich is really usefull aswell.

Necromancers are still being reconsidered. I don’t see them as often as guardian/mesmer/elementalist. but ofcourse necromancer is aswell in most of the teams. i would say 80 %. their usefull for removing boons then fearing and sustained aoe damage with epidemic and reviving signet wich is really nice aswell.

The X is for everyone different. alot of people have their own opinion about what class is the best for X. but in my opinion i think it would be a thief. a thief can take people really fast down and then run away. or kill lord solo.

>_> I play a Dagger/Focus Hybrid Ele, a heckler blindness-spam Guardian, a hammer/physical CC warrior, and a support/roamer thief. Truth be told, I would probably play an Engineer if I liked the playstyle…

What are all these cookie-cutter builds people are talking about? And why do I not feel any weaker when I play my builds?

On a more serious note, you can’t judge class balance based on new players. You simply cannot. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill

daydream.2938:

Pyrial.2917:

daydream.2938:

XiL.4318:

daydream.2938:

Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.

If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.

So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.

THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.

Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER

any questions?

I understand this. But its a seperate point.

Some classes are harder to use than others. This is true.
So, in the hands of an average player some classes do poorly , and others well.
Even IF, at a high level of play this difference vanishs. Or even reverses.

The bulk of any given population on a bell curve , almost by defintion hovers round the middle. So , amongst the average players who represent MOST players , certain classes show up as performing better. Though not necessarily these same classes/specs at high end play.

This is why top players often post ‘l2p’ etc to lower tiered players. Because the complaints those players have are easily solved by there knowledge of the game/skill.

HOwever, sometimes nerfing those classes that are doing well amongst average players because of ease of use makes those classes useless at high end. (not talking about thief specifically just making a general point).

What you have is two curves.
The classes ‘TRUE BALANCE’ which is reflected when played ideally. This means it shows up more at high end.

The classes ‘ease of use’ which reflects how it performs in the hands of the average player.

To elaborate with a hypothetical example ( not saying the classess are really reflected like this). John and Susan , both average players. One uses a thief, the other a Ele.
Thief wins the bulk of the time, despite equal skill. Is this evidence of Op?

Jane and Brain are both elite players. When they face of with the same classes they win about evenly.
This pattern shows up over a statistically significant sample size. What you have is evidence that one class is easier to use, NOT, that its more powerful.

The classes that perform better amongst the bulk of the population, arent overpowered necessarily. (they might ALSO be overpowered but this would be reflected in high end play).

This is actually a problem, but not a problem with balance per se.

And at the other poster.
What im saying is its an unknown fact. There is an answer, just because its not quantified doesn’t mean its not possible to do it.

Surely you see how its analgalous to comparing the nba to euroleague basketball.
Though for all i know europe is better. Or they are the same. Or NA is better. We don’t know which state it is. BUT we do know its one of those three states. WE also know that if we had them compete in lan tournaments(so latency wasnt a variable) over a large sample size the answer would show up in the data.

=). hope that clarifies what i mean.

You have absolutely no idea what you are saying.

:P. Thats not an argument. Something can be a fact without being known or knowable. Its a fact that there is OR isnt life outside of earth. But we may never know . So, thats the sense in which i mean its a statement about a fact condition :P.

Having the results of a set number of outcomes being present, does not make something a fact. Easy enough?

Jjaja.7218:

This is incredibly annoying. Mesmers have the MOST predictable burst out of any profession (yes even above warriors); you can tell just from the amount of clones that are up. What does the Engineer do though? He wastes dodge rolls for whatever reason before the fight even really begins and as far as I can tell, is using no stun breaker/stability/freedom/invulnerability (think WoW arena trinket).

I’m aware that’s Teldo and he’s a famous Engineer from Europe but I don’t think the European scene is up to par with the North American one.

You do realize good Mesmers can have 3 clones up for 80% of the time, can afford to feint shatters (for instance, wasting Diversion when you think they’re Wracking) and time their Cry of Frustration and/or Wrack for when they’re either invisible and the clones surround the enemy (if they’re melee, they’re always chasing it anyways) or the target is out of endurance.

Also, they (and by this i mean we) have a lot of ways to prevent damage, be it by stealthing, porting or simply popping Distortion and /or Blurred Frenzy.

It’s just funny to see some of the claims here, without any idea on what they’re on about. The simple fact that with my Mesmer i manage to stay alive vs 2-3 for a long time (depends on how aggressive i want to be – staying on point, or keeping a distance) with under 1k toughness and 19k HP is proof this is a VERY strong profession. I dare you to live that long on low toughness and vitality with ANY other profession (with the exception of a Thief, ofc).

Finally, claiming NA players are superior to EU ones when there’s no data or event where you can compare them is a desperate argument. I could argue that one American guild on my server is consistently beaten by the lowest of scrubs, but even so, they are hardly representative of the full NA playerbase.

It’s statements like that those makes me feel happy to play on international servers with people from different countries. I’m lucky enough to realize there’s not 1 superior nationality, but that in every country there are only a handful of pros, a bunch of decent players and a LOT of scrubs (Scrubs seem to be the large majority of players, no matter where they’re from, and this is not exclusive to MMOs).

Your geographical location means little in terms of skill. The simple fact that you feel the need to use such a basic argument says a lot about yourself aswell.

Peace out.

Kirei.1792:

a guardian/mesmer/elementalist/(necromancer)/X is what 95 % of the paids team have.

You should really try to base your opions on facts instead of “feelings”.

Also there are hardly any people playing paids so you can’t even begin to qualify their experiences with the greater player populations. That is like approving an Anti-Depressant that only killed 1 rat in a study of 10 rats.

@ xil. Kirei is the number 6 QP holder in europe. AT the very least that means he has seen an awful lot of paid tourneys. So , while his data set is informal and limited. it does bear some information. I wouldnt be suprised (at least within the europe pay scene) if others notice these classes showing up a bit more than random selection would allow for.

Having said that. Gaurdians may be the real most OP class in the game, but people dont complain about em because they dont ‘get owned’ by them like they do by mesmer and theif.

Pyrial.2917:

daydream.2938:

Pyrial.2917:

daydream.2938:

XiL.4318:

daydream.2938:

Idk . YOu can find videos of anyone dying very quickly to any class. Or anyone killing any class very quickly.

If we ever get an elo rating system out that will show how powerful the respective classes are. Namely if they are disproportinally represented at high success and ratings.
However. Its worth noting that the poster here is the 13th most qualifying points of anyone in north america. No small feat. means he is on teams that win paid tourneys very regularly. So, how do mesmers hold up in high end play is the question.
HIGH END PLAY IS WHERE REAL BALANCE SHOWS UP.

So while we dont have a true elo to judge the Op. Its reasonable from his ‘credentials’ to assume his team could destroy 90% of the ppl disagreeing with him, mesmers on there side or not.

THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.

Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER

any questions?

I understand this. But its a seperate point.

Some classes are harder to use than others. This is true.
So, in the hands of an average player some classes do poorly , and others well.
Even IF, at a high level of play this difference vanishs. Or even reverses.

The bulk of any given population on a bell curve , almost by defintion hovers round the middle. So , amongst the average players who represent MOST players , certain classes show up as performing better. Though not necessarily these same classes/specs at high end play.

This is why top players often post ‘l2p’ etc to lower tiered players. Because the complaints those players have are easily solved by there knowledge of the game/skill.

HOwever, sometimes nerfing those classes that are doing well amongst average players because of ease of use makes those classes useless at high end. (not talking about thief specifically just making a general point).

What you have is two curves.
The classes ‘TRUE BALANCE’ which is reflected when played ideally. This means it shows up more at high end.

The classes ‘ease of use’ which reflects how it performs in the hands of the average player.

To elaborate with a hypothetical example ( not saying the classess are really reflected like this). John and Susan , both average players. One uses a thief, the other a Ele.
Thief wins the bulk of the time, despite equal skill. Is this evidence of Op?

Jane and Brain are both elite players. When they face of with the same classes they win about evenly.
This pattern shows up over a statistically significant sample size. What you have is evidence that one class is easier to use, NOT, that its more powerful.

The classes that perform better amongst the bulk of the population, arent overpowered necessarily. (they might ALSO be overpowered but this would be reflected in high end play).

This is actually a problem, but not a problem with balance per se.

And at the other poster.
What im saying is its an unknown fact. There is an answer, just because its not quantified doesn’t mean its not possible to do it.

Surely you see how its analgalous to comparing the nba to euroleague basketball.
Though for all i know europe is better. Or they are the same. Or NA is better. We don’t know which state it is. BUT we do know its one of those three states. WE also know that if we had them compete in lan tournaments(so latency wasnt a variable) over a large sample size the answer would show up in the data.

=). hope that clarifies what i mean.

You have absolutely no idea what you are saying.

:P. Thats not an argument. Something can be a fact without being known or knowable. Its a fact that there is OR isnt life outside of earth. But we may never know . So, thats the sense in which i mean its a statement about a fact condition :P.

Having the results of a set number of outcomes being present, does not make something a fact. Easy enough?

Ah. I see your confusion. This isnt what im claiming.
Im claiming that WHATEVER the reality is. That reality is a fact. Its simply a fact we dont know.
im not claiming X proposition (na > europe tournament scene for eg) is a fact. Im claiming X proposition is a claim about reality and some fact that is unknown.

Ok problems resolved.