Guild Wars 2

daydream.2938:

@ xil. Kirei is the number 6 QP holder in europe. AT the very least that means he has seen an awful lot of paid tourneys. So , while his data set is informal and limited. it does bear some information. I wouldnt be suprised (at least within the europe pay scene) if others notice these classes showing up a bit more than random selection would allow for.

Having said that. Gaurdians may be the real most OP class in the game, but people dont complain about em because they dont ‘get owned’ by them like they do by mesmer and theif.

And in any Tourny you see 30% of the picture which means you lack 70% of the perspective required to even make his claim about a single tournament session let alone all of them in both North America and Europe.

So my statement stands. And in all aspects of life should 100% be a top priority. You should always try to form your opinions based on facts you can verify otherwise your imagination will always attempt to fill in the gaps for you. It is part of evolution. Can’t be avoided.

Manijin.3428:

>_> I play a Dagger/Focus Hybrid Ele, a heckler blindness-spam Guardian, a hammer/physical CC warrior, and a support/roamer thief. Truth be told, I would probably play an Engineer if I liked the playstyle…

What are all these cookie-cutter builds people are talking about? And why do I not feel any weaker when I play my builds?

On a more serious note, you can’t judge class balance based on new players. You simply cannot. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill

Maybe you outclass your opponents enough that it doesn’t matter if you are running sub-optimal builds. You could take any successful paid team and put them on some whack builds and they would still probably wreck in free tournaments. It doesn’t mean that those builds are viable at a high level of competition against equally skilled opponents though.

Seether.7285:

Manijin.3428:

>_> I play a Dagger/Focus Hybrid Ele, a heckler blindness-spam Guardian, a hammer/physical CC warrior, and a support/roamer thief. Truth be told, I would probably play an Engineer if I liked the playstyle…

What are all these cookie-cutter builds people are talking about? And why do I not feel any weaker when I play my builds?

On a more serious note, you can’t judge class balance based on new players. You simply cannot. http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill

Maybe you outclass your opponents enough that it doesn’t matter if you are running sub-optimal builds. You could take any successful paid team and put them on some whack builds and they would still probably wreck in free tournaments. It doesn’t mean that those builds are viable at a high level of competition against equally skilled opponents though.

All the Paid Teams should be forced to Q solo for free tournies for a month. Then we can listen to their perspective on balance. Once they have more than being carried on the resume.

Jjaja.7218:

Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

Quoted for absolute truth.

Ah. I see your confusion. This isnt what im claiming.
Im claiming that WHATEVER the reality is. That reality is a fact. Its simply a fact we dont know.
im not claiming X proposition (na > europe tournament scene for eg) is a fact. Im claiming X proposition is a claim about reality and some fact that is unknown.

Ok problems resolved.

You have the IQ of a snail.

Possible outcomes:
1. You do have the IQ of a snail
2. You have a lower IQ of a snail
3. You have a higher IQ of a snail

My statement is FACT, because my statement is one of the possible 3 outcomes of this scenario.

Pyrial.2917:

Ah. I see your confusion. This isnt what im claiming.
Im claiming that WHATEVER the reality is. That reality is a fact. Its simply a fact we dont know.
im not claiming X proposition (na > europe tournament scene for eg) is a fact. Im claiming X proposition is a claim about reality and some fact that is unknown.

Ok problems resolved.

You have the IQ and of a snail.

Possible outcomes:
1. You do have the IQ of a snail
2. You have a lower IQ of a snail
3. You have a higher IQ of a snail

My statement is FACT, because my statement is one of the possible 3 outcomes of this scenario.

The fail there is that i didnt make the statement that started this argument. Someone else did. And someone called him a bigot. And i said i dont think making a claim about reality (ie a state of facts ) is necessarily bigoted. after all it may be true. or for that matter false.
Also. Personal attacks a good argument dont make.
And it is a fact that i have the iq of snail OR lower OR higher.

=) anyways dude good life to you im done arguing.

painHV.3968:

Jjaja.7218:

Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

Quoted for absolute truth.

This is what i said in an earlier post. wish i had noticed this quote.

daydream.2938:

Pyrial.2917:

Ah. I see your confusion. This isnt what im claiming.
Im claiming that WHATEVER the reality is. That reality is a fact. Its simply a fact we dont know.
im not claiming X proposition (na > europe tournament scene for eg) is a fact. Im claiming X proposition is a claim about reality and some fact that is unknown.

Ok problems resolved.

You have the IQ and of a snail.

Possible outcomes:
1. You do have the IQ of a snail
2. You have a lower IQ of a snail
3. You have a higher IQ of a snail

My statement is FACT, because my statement is one of the possible 3 outcomes of this scenario.

The fail there is that i didnt make the statement that started this argument. Someone else did. And someone called him a bigot. And i said i dont think making a claim about reality (ie a state of facts ) is necessarily bigoted. after all it may be true. or for that matter false.
Also. Personal attacks a good argument dont make.

You didn’t make the statement, but you stated it was an objective fact that isn’t supported by…fact.

In your world what you said was “fact” in that world my statement is also “fact”. Therefore stating a fact is not a personal attack and is a valid argument.

Pyrial.2917:

daydream.2938:

Pyrial.2917:

Ah. I see your confusion. This isnt what im claiming.
Im claiming that WHATEVER the reality is. That reality is a fact. Its simply a fact we dont know.
im not claiming X proposition (na > europe tournament scene for eg) is a fact. Im claiming X proposition is a claim about reality and some fact that is unknown.

Ok problems resolved.

You have the IQ and of a snail.

Possible outcomes:
1. You do have the IQ of a snail
2. You have a lower IQ of a snail
3. You have a higher IQ of a snail

My statement is FACT, because my statement is one of the possible 3 outcomes of this scenario.

The fail there is that i didnt make the statement that started this argument. Someone else did. And someone called him a bigot. And i said i dont think making a claim about reality (ie a state of facts ) is necessarily bigoted. after all it may be true. or for that matter false.
Also. Personal attacks a good argument dont make.

You didn’t make the statement, but you stated it was an objective fact that isn’t supported by…fact.

In your world what you said was “fact” in that world my statement is also “fact”. Therefore stating a fact is not a personal attack and is a valid argument.

I said its a claim about an objective fact. If i said otherwise then i must have mistyped, i wasnt exactly editing my posts. So, this then is what i meant.
So either you misread me, or my post was ambigious, ambiquity now cleared we can part ways i hope.

Jjaja.7218:

Balance should always be done from the top to the bottom. Your experiences in PuGs or hot-joins should be disregarded because it does not always represent the meta or the full potential of any profession composition. Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

Sorry but this is just completely flawed. Balance must be done for both synonymously. If casual players don’t enjoy the game there cannot be a competitive scene. I probably wouldn’t be considered a casual player myself but I at least understand where the foundation of a game comes from. If I don’t see a true casual interest I know my time trying to be competitive will just be wasted.

The competitive scene needs to be dynamic. As in have proper progression of new players into competitive players so there is always new ideas being brought to the table. Who is really going to be interested in watching the same top 5 teams play in every tournament? The game has to minimize barriers for new players in order to grow interest and viewership as well as act as a resource to build new teams.

New players joining the game to get bursted by a thief or warrior or end up in an endless fight with a bunker is really going to jade their experience which just undermines the whole competitive scene. That’s even if the game is perfectly balanced at the competitive level.

I’d love to see those who are trying to counter the OP’s statments be open about their own QP. It’s great to have someone who’s actually stating their honest opinion from a perspective of actually dedicated game-play rather than knee-jerk reactions.

Fourth.1567:

New players joining the game to get bursted by a thief or warrior or end up in an endless fight with a bunker is really going to jade their experience which just undermines the whole competitive scene. That’s even if the game is perfectly balanced at the competitive level.

I agree with this point, but I would argue its less about balance with new players and more quality of life. While the lack of playerbase in sPvP could be contributed to new players being “bursted” or facing bunkers(I’m sure people left because of this), I think it was more the framework of the system Anet set up themselves. Players were faced with these barriers and given no opportunity to overcome them with the options provided. Free tournaments had teams of such skill variance that its hard to learn when the majority of your fights aren’t really a challenge either way(either you can’t put up a fight or you stomp players). Of course, we’re all well aware of this, which is why we’re discussing whats wrong.

I think some quality of life changes could extend to balance, only so long as it doesn’t disrupt the game’s design vision regarding how professions interact at the top level. I think its better to provide ways for players to overcome these challenges through easy access to streams, player blogs, or help videos.

People who are considered “casual” in this game aren’t casual in their intent. Most players who play these types of multiplayer games over others do it with the intent that there will be a challenge or learning curve that they will succeed over.
Isn’t that why people play those ridiculous games like starcraft 2, LoL, and counterstrike, etc.? We marvel at the skill of top players and wish to emulate it. They may rage or scream at some things, but they keep coming back. Anet should have had a framework to allow the player to learn without running into roadblocks. They didn’t. It may have succeeded in years past, but there are too many options available now. If a player gets bored he jumps.

Making big balance changes or compromising design vision around these players is generally not a good idea. Many complaints of these players are inherently “visceral” in nature, and limited in view. Balancing systems around those who aren’t aware of how the system interacts in a grand view is means you always will be cleaning up new problems that arise. “Meta”, or where these interactions are apparent at their highest level are generally better to balance around. Even then, slow balancing is better as meta is tenuous.

Fourth.1567:

Jjaja.7218:

Balance should always be done from the top to the bottom. Your experiences in PuGs or hot-joins should be disregarded because it does not always represent the meta or the full potential of any profession composition. Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

Sorry but this is just completely flawed. Balance must be done for both synonymously. If casual players don’t enjoy the game there cannot be a competitive scene. I probably wouldn’t be considered a casual player myself but I at least understand where the foundation of a game comes from. If I don’t see a true casual interest I know my time trying to be competitive will just be wasted.

The competitive scene needs to be dynamic. As in have proper progression of new players into competitive players so there is always new ideas being brought to the table. Who is really going to be interested in watching the same top 5 teams play in every tournament? The game has to minimize barriers for new players in order to grow interest and viewership as well as act as a resource to build new teams.

New players joining the game to get bursted by a thief or warrior or end up in an endless fight with a bunker is really going to jade their experience which just undermines the whole competitive scene. That’s even if the game is perfectly balanced at the competitive level.

Is there ONE popular game out there currently that has balanced play at both at the casual level and top level?

congalong.9620:

Fourth.1567:

Jjaja.7218:

Balance should always be done from the top to the bottom. Your experiences in PuGs or hot-joins should be disregarded because it does not always represent the meta or the full potential of any profession composition. Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

Sorry but this is just completely flawed. Balance must be done for both synonymously. If casual players don’t enjoy the game there cannot be a competitive scene. I probably wouldn’t be considered a casual player myself but I at least understand where the foundation of a game comes from. If I don’t see a true casual interest I know my time trying to be competitive will just be wasted.

The competitive scene needs to be dynamic. As in have proper progression of new players into competitive players so there is always new ideas being brought to the table. Who is really going to be interested in watching the same top 5 teams play in every tournament? The game has to minimize barriers for new players in order to grow interest and viewership as well as act as a resource to build new teams.

New players joining the game to get bursted by a thief or warrior or end up in an endless fight with a bunker is really going to jade their experience which just undermines the whole competitive scene. That’s even if the game is perfectly balanced at the competitive level.

Is there ONE popular game out there currently that has balanced play at both at the casual level and top level?

Yeah they are the games all the PvPers who left GW2 are back to playing.

XiL.4318:

congalong.9620:

Fourth.1567:

Jjaja.7218:

Balance should always be done from the top to the bottom. Your experiences in PuGs or hot-joins should be disregarded because it does not always represent the meta or the full potential of any profession composition. Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

Sorry but this is just completely flawed. Balance must be done for both synonymously. If casual players don’t enjoy the game there cannot be a competitive scene. I probably wouldn’t be considered a casual player myself but I at least understand where the foundation of a game comes from. If I don’t see a true casual interest I know my time trying to be competitive will just be wasted.

The competitive scene needs to be dynamic. As in have proper progression of new players into competitive players so there is always new ideas being brought to the table. Who is really going to be interested in watching the same top 5 teams play in every tournament? The game has to minimize barriers for new players in order to grow interest and viewership as well as act as a resource to build new teams.

New players joining the game to get bursted by a thief or warrior or end up in an endless fight with a bunker is really going to jade their experience which just undermines the whole competitive scene. That’s even if the game is perfectly balanced at the competitive level.

Is there ONE popular game out there currently that has balanced play at both at the casual level and top level?

Yeah they are the games all the PvPers who left GW2 are back to playing.

Which are? Or are you planning to avoid the question as well by just giving me vague answers?

I think the paid tournaments should offer more than just different gear,qp,gems. i think i have right now all the paids gear. it doesn’t interest me anymore. and i got over 600 qp and i don’t know what to do with my gems
BUT… does that motivate me to play paid? right Now i can do nothing with qp. and i have all kind of gear and gems is just for to Re-buy tickets and if u always win u can get luxe upgrades.
So what i basicly think is that anet should have less requirements for people to play paids.
i heard that arenanet wants to get ladders on But… if theres few teams dominating and not many people playing paid, then how are ladders gonna work? i think the team that wins every game will get on top 1. and than? against who will he/she or w/e play ?. If arenanet wants a ladder. Attract the people first to play Paid.
make the ticket requirements lower. basicly Arenanet is making people limited or not being able to play paids. the big difference between Gw2 pvp and other Mmo pvp is that If you want to get ladders on, you need players. if you don’t have players you dont have a ladder. even the most scrub players should be able to play paid. but versus people with the same level. if you compare gw2 to wow (just a example).
all people are able to play arena. and the skill gets better of people the more u win. but in order that to happen u need Alot of people. i can’t imagine gw2 having ladders with 50 teams playing and 5 dominating hard.
i would atleast say 500 teams and 50 good teams.
and i think that there should be in game a channel where people search/recruit teams for Paid. its hard to get 5 people together that is stable. but thats what u need to build a ladder . a proper stable team and alot of them. gw2 should make some stuff that makes it easier to contact other players that are interested in paids. across ALL SERVERS. and not just 1 server. (if possible that is).
attracting people comes First before ladder.
just make the requirements for paids less and more addictive rewards if u want ;ladders. i would never want to play ladder with 50 teams. (wich atm is around 20).

XiL.4318:

Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER

any questions?

I lold so hard at this one +1 dude u made my night

Kirei.1792:

i heard that arenanet wants to get ladders on But… if theres few teams dominating and not many people playing paid, then how are ladders gonna work? i think the team that wins every game will get on top 1.

Not necessarely, there is a lot of good players / team who don’t even play because of the lack of competitive features. I wouldn’t be surprise if 2 months after adding a ladder, most of the current top team are not in the top anymore.

It would also motivate current “not top” teams to actualy improve.

XiL.4318:

THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.

Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER

Best post in the thread. Abilities like backstab, heartseeker, mind wrack, 100 blades are OP as anything for noobs/low-skill players to the point where these players will be so turned off GW2 PVP that they will never stick around long enough to learn how to counter them.

Good balance comes from smart, timely use of many abilities, not press an IWin button and win 80% of encounters – this applies to high as well as low skill levels.

Kirei.1792:

… i think that there should be an in game channel where people search/recruit teams for Paid. its hard to get 5 people together that are stable. but thats what u need to build a ladder. gw2 should make some stuff that makes it easier to contact other players that are interested in paids…

just make the requirements for paids less

Good idea Kirei!

-Kontrol

mjharrison.3209:

XiL.4318:

THE TINY PVP POPULATIONS PROVE YOUR CAPS WRONG.

Balance shows up the very first moment a new player enters PvP for the very first time. The first meta starts with how difficult your chosen class is to play. And in GW2 the first thing any new to PvP player learns is that some classes are VERY VERY hard and some are HEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKERHEARTSEEKER

Best post in the thread. Abilities like backstab, heartseeker, mind wrack, 100 blades are OP as anything for noobs/low-skill players to the point where these players will be so turned off GW2 PVP that they will never stick around long enough to learn how to counter them.

Good balance comes from smart, timely use of many abilities, not press an IWin button and win 80% of encounters – this applies to high as well as low skill levels.

I completely agree. As a ranger, I would be willing to give up Quickening Zephyr if it meant less ridiculous burst in game.

I am not sure why you give them data they have already. (If they aren’t tracking what classes are participating and winning in both WvW and PvP they probably need to be fired…)

And the idea that the ‘competitive’ top-tier part of the game needs worked on while most players are avoiding PvP and WvW because they are mostly unfun is pretty laughable. Whenever I shake my head and wonder what a dev team for a game like this is thinking, I read the forums and see that there are MUCH worse ideas they could be implementing.

A split for all skills between sPvP and PvE/WvW is needed IMO if there is any chance for balance. At the moment having a profession and/or skill be balanced in a tournament game, in a dungeon and in a large scale WvW battle just isn’t feasible.

Two examples are warriors and mesmers. In spvp mesmers are very good and they are ok in wvw (less so after the recent nerfs) while in pve they are more or less outshined by every other class except in a few fractals. Warriors are so-so in spvp, quite strong in WvW (being able to solo supply camps or those nasty killshots in sieges) and walking engines of death and destruction i PvE.

Since Anet have said that they don’t design for WvW to be balanced (probably due to the sheer number of people involved in most fights) we’re left with PvE and spvp, two types of gameplay that differs very much. In dungeons you have stupid enemies with tons of health while in spvp it’s vice versa. Trying to have a balance that suits both will most likely only end up suiting neither and instead there will be a tug-of-war with nerfs and buffs.

painHV.3968:

Jjaja.7218:

Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

Quoted for absolute truth.

quoted for absolute failure. If you balance around top end players and casuals are getting turned off due to poor balance at lower skill levels, they quit and the game dies regardless if there is perfect balance among the top 5 most elite teams in the world.

id love to see some of these “elite” players solo queue some 8v8 hot join in one of their non-optimal “works for me” builds and survive all the “wait for CDs and attack” mesmers and thieves. The sooner they do that the sooner they will see how the roots of this tree are just about dead.

Jjaja.7218:

Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

If you do this, you get what you call “bias”. Top players will remain at the top because the game favors their playstyle. And balancing according to what they think and want is not “balanced”.

What we should have is an independent body doing independent analysis and balancing. With this, no players are favored.

Do you think that sports were modified throughout the years because their respective top players thought that this or that is better? no. there were independent theorists and sport scientists who are probably bad in playing the sports but are good in the theories behind the sports and were responsible with the evolution.

it’s up to the game designers to draw in the whiteboard the mechanics set in stone and balance their game. you will know that they are competent if they do it independently and know what their doing. opinions are welcome but their decision is final.

Powerr.3649:

Immediate needed changes imo:

-Revert mesmer trait “shattered strength”

I play a mesmer, primarily PVE, and would rather see mesmers balanced by fixing the shatter exploit that’s causing mind-wrack to do 100% more than it’s supposed to (you fool the game into calculating the damage as 3 separate 1-clone shatters rather than 1 single 3-clone shatter).

Before the shattered strength buff, mesmers may as well AFK in dynamic events for the lack of loot they were receiving, and the might stacking itself would not be an issue if this pre-existing bug were not still being exploited.

Getting rid of the bug would bring down their highest burst level by 50% and allow mesmers to be balanced around the properly functioning ability rather than the top-end of an exploit.

congalong.9620:

XiL.4318:

congalong.9620:

Fourth.1567:

Jjaja.7218:

Balance should always be done from the top to the bottom. Your experiences in PuGs or hot-joins should be disregarded because it does not always represent the meta or the full potential of any profession composition. Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

Sorry but this is just completely flawed. Balance must be done for both synonymously. If casual players don’t enjoy the game there cannot be a competitive scene. I probably wouldn’t be considered a casual player myself but I at least understand where the foundation of a game comes from. If I don’t see a true casual interest I know my time trying to be competitive will just be wasted.

The competitive scene needs to be dynamic. As in have proper progression of new players into competitive players so there is always new ideas being brought to the table. Who is really going to be interested in watching the same top 5 teams play in every tournament? The game has to minimize barriers for new players in order to grow interest and viewership as well as act as a resource to build new teams.

New players joining the game to get bursted by a thief or warrior or end up in an endless fight with a bunker is really going to jade their experience which just undermines the whole competitive scene. That’s even if the game is perfectly balanced at the competitive level.

Is there ONE popular game out there currently that has balanced play at both at the casual level and top level?

Yeah they are the games all the PvPers who left GW2 are back to playing.

Which are? Or are you planning to avoid the question as well by just giving me vague answers?

LoL, Dota 2. Both games are way more balanced for the casual player. yet still balanced for the “pro”. Oh and both of those games are fun at all levels of play.

People are mistaking the shattered strength trait as the reason why mind wrack is hitting so high when its actually because of the bug/exploit (that has nothing to do with shattered strength.

These are 2 completely separate issues that non-mesmers don’t seem to understand. The bug/exploit tricks the game into think you are shatterer 3×1 clone instead of 1×3 clone (shatter does less damage per clone when there’s more clones available). This has nothing to do with shattered strength trait. The might stacks add a lil extra damage, but the extra 1-1.5k damage per shatter is coming from the bug, not the might stacks.

Jjaja.7218:

Paid Ticket Entry:
Needs to be lowered. It seriously reduces the competitive capacity of paids if some teams or players have to do four hours of frees just to do one paid. I suggest lowering the requirement from 5 to 3.

Quoted for emphasis

Jjaja.7218:

Xom.9264:

Strong post, the first few lines tells me you have played games with real meta perhaps with ranking where people could not really be carried like this farm based system. I main a necro pug 100% of the time also, the carried necros I have seen are not impressive they are just rez sig bots. The necros that pug alot (not many) are actually good.

Perhaps the OP is good no idea but I just cant respect based on QPs, if its not rated matches its no indication of skill.

I find it hard to accept that I’m “carried” since the nerfs people are asking for on Necromancers (i.e. hybrid well build) is predicated on the build I introduced into the meta. Regarding resurrection signets… you can blame Powerr for starting that one. Necromancers are not underpowered by any stretch; although, they could use bug fixes and tweaks. Remember though, lack of build diversity IS NOT synonymous with imbalance.

Balance should always be done from the top to the bottom. Your experiences in PuGs or hot-joins should be disregarded because it does not always represent the meta or the full potential of any profession composition. Top players will always present the full potential of a profession (it’s what makes them top players) and balance should be based off that. I don’t care if a half-decent Mesmer is able to beat a similarly half-decent Necromancer every single time; it’s a totally different scenario at the top.

You misunderstand me, I did say anything about Necro balance.

I said you are not a top player there are no top players only people that play too much. Farm based systems inflate egos, skill based ladder systems that cant be farmed show who the real pvpers are and meta develops. I’m back to playing WoW a few hours a week and am a actual top player in a rated systems with thousands and thousands of players and teams a huge pool. I dont see the same names over and over and over again until at the highest top 1%. In GW2 tpvp I see the same people over and over the player pool is small as kitten….

Why is the pvp pool so small, has alot to do with one game mode and no rated system. You’re not a top pvper you are the leftovers other then a few people the top players gave up on the game already until rated team/guild system is added.

Thanks

Just a quick example of why a rating system needs to be the first thing on the agenda.

Today I joined several free tournies as a self-declared casual PvPer (solo que of course), and these were my results.

1. Despite a 4v5 disadvantage, my team made it all the way to Khylo, where we lost. I attribute this to playing mediocre to poor teams in rounds 1 & 2.
2. Another 4v5 disadvantage. Lost this one.
3. Finally got 5 people, two of them were new to tPvP and things didn’t end well.
4. Had a decent group, but the opposition was better. Nothing wrong here.
5. Was placed with a 4-man premade. We ran into a better 5-man premade.
6. Got placed with another solid group. Ran into another 5-man premade.
7. More noobs on my team (ranks 3 & 5). Not a bad match, but we still didn’t win.

So, long story short, I qued for 7 tournaments and the teams were balanced once. From this, I leave feeling like I wasted my time playing in poorly balanced matches where the outcome was decided beforehand. The actual PvP of GW2 is fun, but playing against teams that are much better/worse is not.

Im sorry Jjaja but your credentials mean nothing to me..serious players wont play every kittening day boring fotm comps and farm lower teams in paids.Thats how you earn your precious qp and i highly doubt you are on the top of the competitive scene..
Its sad really we dont have proper ranking system yet..i expect a lot of rage quiting of the current pros if this game ever gets really competitive.

i am ultima stark and i have 409 quooolliiiipointz on europe muhahaha ;’D.

i tested a lot of elementalists build and i think dagger dagger and scepter dagger are pretty even balanced ( dagga dagga gives more auras for mates but scepter dagger has the safer long range attacks) . i dont like the single targetdps of staffskills ( too long casttimes , when i have ended to cast a fire 1 skill , the thief already killed me) at the moment especially earthskills…
the singletargetdps is lower/ than thief and mesma but ele have greatsurvivalskills, boons and heals for mates, condicleanser and great mobilityskills(RTL, swiftness, lightning Flash…) so ele is fine as it is except staffskills… i love the attunementdancing/classdesign of eles and it requires more skill than pressing 2 and spam successful heartseekers….

so when will they buff elementalist’s staffdamage?
and when will they fix thief’s dpsoutput. thief is imo too strong, great survivabilty by stealth movement (they can play with berserk amulett and get away…)
why can a thief oneshot me while i cannot see him?

mesmer has a too high singletargetburst while using shatters twice with macro….
fix that! why can they stack 25 mightstacks ? are u kittening me?

in master’s hands :

1. bsthief (best and fastest roamer/carry with best mobility)
2. shattermesma (backpointholder, portal, strong, kittening illusions, high single target dps, timewarp, Illusion of life)
3. guardian (mainholder, hard to kill in 1v1 , can hold 1v 2, 3 very long, stability, zoningcontrol, booking (make healing range smaller = guardian is melee so…)
4. bunkerele/semitankele /dpsele (jannastyle support, fast, healing, condicleanser, damage, aoecontrol, Interrupts)
5.necro (offensive /Support, aoedamage, condicontrol, rezsignet)
6. bunkerranger (tanky, condikitten, pets hit hard, healing)

that’s my opinion

merry xmas

Ultima.8673:

1. bsthief (best and fastest roamer/carry with best mobility)
2. shattermesma (backpointholder, portal, strong, kittening illusions, high single target dps, timewarp, Illusion of life)
3. guardian (mainholder, not killable in 1v1 , can hold 1v 2, 3 very long, stability, zoningcontrol, booking (make healing range smaller = guardian is melee so…)
4. semitankele /dpsele (jannastyle support, fast, healing, condicleanser, damage, aoecontrol, Interrupts)
5.necro (offensive /Support, aoedamage, condicontrol, rezsignet)
6. bunkerranger (tanky, condikitten, pets hit hard, healing)

that’s my opinion

merry xmas

Dat Ultima is a funny guy! I agree.

Merry Christmas.

Burrfish.6408:

So, long story short, I qued for 7 tournaments and the teams were balanced once. From this, I leave feeling like I wasted my time playing in poorly balanced matches where the outcome was decided beforehand. The actual PvP of GW2 is fun, but playing against teams that are much better/worse is not.

Yup. Most free tourney matches seem to end about 500-250, because the dominant team just lets the other team hold one point throughout the match.

This game is completely dead. Does arenanet even care about this game anymore? I mean its a sinking ship. Almost all the top players have stopped playing and probably won’t bother to play anymore as there is literally no incentive. Please do something Arenanet.

They have said time and time before january/february will contain pvp-updates (thats WvW and spvp). We just have to wait and see what they come up with.

Hopefully we’ll have ratins/MMR and custom arenas and another 2 batches of balance by the time it’s february.

uhhhh ultima, guardian not killable in 1v1? it sure is lol appearntly u never played guardian ^^

yea sure he is killable 1v1 especially as mesma necro or thief but it should take some time to kill him in a 1v1 . and that time to kill him will give the defending team time to come back and help him. also mesma necro lack in mobility..

u have to know i see from the perspective of an elementalist and i dont think i can kill a bunkerguard in 1 v1 xD too much toughness/ boons/ heals/ blocks…

yea funny part is a thief can do it within 1,5 sec
and mesma could do it also pretty fast/ ripping all guard’s boons away

I’m not going to claim engineers are in a fine position right now, but they are one of the stronger roamers at the moment. Not so much in 1v1 situations – a good mesmer will always beat an outstanding engineer, unless he gets lucky with his elixir S and promptly NUKES the mesmer out of orbit. But I suppose in contrast a good engineer will always beat an outstanding thief, so whatever.

More or less they’re strong through a mixture of mobility and versatility. I run up to a point and see a 2v2 going on – I swap to toolkit, magnet someone at ~80% health off the point, swap to rifle, root them, use grenade barrage, blunderbuss, then overcharged shot (I do this all before the root wears off), that was easily 8k-12k damage, and while they’re on the ground, I can either 1) Jump shot to them and use prybar, or 2) Use shrapnel grenade and freeze grenade. Either way kills any non-guardian class without an invuln (unless the guardian already blew his block skills).

Engineers are also incredibly painful to chase, so that’s always a possible solution to a mesmer. Run up, have him blow his clones and phantasms on you, magnet + root him off the point, then run. Run very far away because he’s about to do a glitched shatter for all your health.

i don’t think a outstanding engineer will win vs a bs thief. depends on what build the engineer ofc has, if ur a bunker u win. full cond, u lose. but engineers can 1v1 a guard too yes. and their a good roamer aswell since they have perma swiftness. but the point of a roamer is that it can escape, and kill some 1 decently fast. i think as engineer u can’t escape that good, and neither kill some 1 decently fast. there are better options for a roamer than a engineer.

God why do I even read these forums. Engineers are not fine ATM. The first and biggest nail in the coffin was the smoke bomb nerf. The reason being because we depending on it to survive in ANY viable build.

Indeed, the radius was too large, but to claim it was nerfed to tick every two seconds to prevent it from becoming a CC against “fast attacking classes” ignores the fact that every other blind field in the game ticks every second (except the flame turret, luls).

Other commonly accepted and well-off roamers have built in survivability tools into their builds (Engis have very few builds that work because of how kits take up utility slots and the main hand weapons are purposefully kept kittenty). Eles have easy access to escapes/protection. Necros have death shroud/plague form. Thieves are thieves. Engis dont have any reliable mid-range direct damage attacks, so if you’re a roamer it’s either lob the kitten out of grenades or lay down your pathetic smoke bomb and get popped in melee like a balloon.

And please don’t tell me to play a power engi for the love of god. Don’t even get me started on those.

/QQ off, Merry Wintersday