Prudence Pump Six – Steam Punk of an Engineer
Sorrow’s Furnace
Sorrow’s Furnace
Stealth Counter
You see a thief go stealth one thing you can do is RUN.
If ele could use Static Aura maybe even some of the speed buffs just to get the hell out of there.
Not alot can be done, with the delay in appearing it can make it quite hard, just keep moving dont stand still make them work for the killuse your low cool down AoE attacks and make your way to team mates
Pretty simple question that I haven’t been able to have answered clearly enough for me by searching and asking people in-game:
How do you counter stealth?
Such a question obviously leans toward Thieves as they use it the most, but I sincerely do not understand how the stealth mechanic in this game works. So if someone or some people could explain how it works and what its counters are, I’d appreciate it.
crowd control or heavy dmg cool-downs
stealth does not mean your invulnerable, to many times i’ve seen or while on my own thief been countered by well timed damage or crowd control
the easiest is shadow reforge they are given a limited area of stealth then a longer stealth when it finishes the trick is to use what you can before it lets up.
grenades, fear, hundred blades and just about any kind of knock-back that takes them out of there shadow reforge is a solid counter to a long timed stealth they get when the reforge finishes. too many times I’ve seen thieves come out of stealth in a downed state for this to not be true
as for other stealth mechanics you have to be willing to guesstimate there location predict if they double backed or would have a reason to while in stealth and doesn’t hurt if you have the cd’s to spare when there in it.
also your not immune to trap mechanics while in stealth also
And before says my build doesn’t work, when Ele’s get nerfed it will be -Schwahrheit
On my Nexro for example i put down EVERY AoE my staff has right on around me so that they come near it and it triggers i know where they are.
Another possible option is DS and then using the AoE damage thing and see if you get lucky
Aoe skills. Warrior F1 with Longbow can melt Thieves and it’s spammable. Spamming autoattacks while running around in circles works, too. Spam dodge before they Steal, use a swiftness ability, and block.
" I like to let people talk who like to talk. It makes it
There are 4 responses to a thief that goes stealth:
1. Run. Pretty self explanatory, this is how you counter stealth in most other poorly designed MMOs.
2. Auto-attack. This requires you randomly choosing a direction and spamming your 1 skill. It is mostly useless and requires extensive guessing as to where the thief will go, not to mention it is extremely easy to avoid by the thief.
3. AOE. This requires randomly choosing a location on the ground and using an AOE skill with the hope that the thief will run through/stay in the AOE area long enough to take damage. Similar to auto-attacking it requires extensive guessing as to where the thief will be, and is mostly useless as a thief can dodge out of any AOE radius before it has time to damage them if they have reasonably fast reflexes.
4. Prepare to counter. This strategy requires waiting and listening for the thief attack and dodging at the precise moment the thief attacks. You will probably need to use both dodges to avoid most of their burst, and will also need to carry block skills, condition removal, and stun breakers in case your timing is a second or so off. If you can survive this then you are free to attack the thief for a small amount of time while they are visible. Going against stupid thieves you may be able to kill them, smart thieves will simply stealth again after their initial failed attack and do one of the following:
– Attack another players/go for a different node
– Wait awhile till their health is regenerated and most skills are off CD to attack you again. At this point, most of your skills will still be on CD from avoiding the initial attack and your chance of survival diminishes significantly.
Mesmer, dodge once then drop your 2x clones which also stealths you.
Shatter when he pops and off you go..
They are easy to kill
I assume you’re asking for a defensive counter to stealth, but be aware of how much health the thief had before they stealthed: are they attacking or retreating?
If you think the thief is gunning for you, defensive CDs work wonders. I personally use static aura on my Ele, but any sort of block skill is good, especially if you know you’re fighting a backstab thief.
If these aren’t options for you, then as others have said, lay down AoE on yourself (remember, the thief needs to get close to hit you) and putting your back against a wall isn’t a bad idea.
Lastly, and this is really a crapshot, dodge. Then dodge some more.
Really there are a plethora of ways to counter stealth, so you just need to find a few for your build and apply them as the situation necessitates.
Mesmer, dodge once then drop your 2x clones which also stealths you.
Shatter when he pops and off you go..
They are easy to kill
Mirror Image does not stealth you, it just creates two clones, Decoy creates one clone and stealths you.
And a thief can use CnD every 6 seconds to restealth
Blinding powder to grant them blindness miss the shatter and re-stealth
Shadow Refuge to sit in stealth for 10 seconds
Hide in Shadows to remove all conditions grant regen and stealth
All of these abilities will make the clones stop in there tracks and just stand there.
Name one other MMO that a stealth class can teleport on to you while stealthing themselves and deal a player 50-75% of there total lifepool and re-stealth every 6 seconds. I’ll wait…
Mesmer, dodge once then drop your 2x clones which also stealths you.
Shatter when he pops and off you go..
They are easy to kill
Mirror Image does not stealth you, it just creates two clones, Decoy creates one clone and stealths you.
And a thief can use CnD every 6 seconds to restealth
Blinding powder to grant them blindness miss the shatter and re-stealth
Shadow Refuge to sit in stealth for 10 seconds
Hide in Shadows to remove all conditions grant regen and stealth
All of these abilities will make the clones stop in there tracks and just stand there.
Name one other MMO that a stealth class can teleport on to you while stealthing themselves and deal a player 50-75% of there total lifepool and re-stealth every 6 seconds. I’ll wait…
Perfect world international…..and it sucks. It sucks really bad.
Mesmer, dodge once then drop your 2x clones which also stealths you.
Shatter when he pops and off you go..
They are easy to kill
Mirror Image does not stealth you, it just creates two clones, Decoy creates one clone and stealths you.
And a thief can use CnD every 6 seconds to restealth
Blinding powder to grant them blindness miss the shatter and re-stealth
Shadow Refuge to sit in stealth for 10 seconds
Hide in Shadows to remove all conditions grant regen and stealth
All of these abilities will make the clones stop in there tracks and just stand there.
Name one other MMO that a stealth class can teleport on to you while stealthing themselves and deal a player 50-75% of there total lifepool and re-stealth every 6 seconds. I’ll wait…
Perfect world international…..and it sucks. It sucks really bad.
whoa whoa whoa, he said 50-75% hp, PWI sins just one shot you from stealth. I remember watching a sin with +12 Nirvana daggers 1 shot a sage barb in tiger form with 43k hp, double sparked headhunt zerk crit from stealth ftw?
“What, you think just ‘cause you’re fake, everyone else is a gimmick?”
~Immortal Technique
~Immortal Technique
Name one other MMO that a stealth class can teleport on to you while stealthing themselves and deal a player 50-75% of there total lifepool and re-stealth every 6 seconds. I’ll wait…
exactly. yes, it’s overpowered, and yes i have a thief.
downed state is bad for PVP
Mesmer, dodge once then drop your 2x clones which also stealths you.
Shatter when he pops and off you go..
They are easy to kill
Mirror Image does not stealth you, it just creates two clones, Decoy creates one clone and stealths you.
And a thief can use CnD every 6 seconds to restealth
Blinding powder to grant them blindness miss the shatter and re-stealth
Shadow Refuge to sit in stealth for 10 seconds
Hide in Shadows to remove all conditions grant regen and stealth
All of these abilities will make the clones stop in there tracks and just stand there.
Name one other MMO that a stealth class can teleport on to you while stealthing themselves and deal a player 50-75% of there total lifepool and re-stealth every 6 seconds. I’ll wait…
this guy is right, how could someone design this without thinking it could be overpowered? and how can it be in game for so long without any change?
and take this and add many gap closers and free teleport which deal lots of dmg every 45sec, 30sec with traits…
now add a fact that not everyone have AOE skills or their AOE skills are very weak or with big delay or anything, so even this poor “counter” cant be counted in…
A random thought for changing how the stealth mechanic works:
Think TF2 spy; cannot attack from stealth. First attack after unstealthing inherits the same effects as attacking from stealth currently.
I haven’t played a thief yet so I can’t really comment further: Would it work? How will it not work?
The only thing that will work is to give them cool downs like everyone else.
The only thing that will work is to give them cool downs like everyone else.
Does revealed count as the cooldown? Albeit it’s quite short.
The only thing that will work is to give them cool downs like everyone else.
Does revealed count as the cooldown? Albeit it’s quite short.
Well reveal is a mechanic in use and you see how things are. I meant give each one of their abilities a cool down like every other profession.
Well reveal is a mechanic in use and you see how things are. I meant give each one of their abilities a cool down like every other profession.
this… with two different ways…
1) take away whole initiative and give them normal cooldowns like anyone else have, maybe add something more to F skill to compensate a bit but please, NOT ANOTHER NUKE
2) leave initiative as it is and give them shorter cooldowns on skills, like half of what others have, 15sec instead of 30 on strong skills, 10sec instead of 20 etc on medium and 5sec instead of 10 on weaker skills…
why hasnt anyone said it
channeled abilitys track stealth
stupid mechanic, but it damages and tracks stealthed targets.
why hasnt anyone said it
channeled abilitys track stealth
stupid mechanic, but it damages and tracks stealthed targets.
Do all classes have access to channel abilities? If not, then I can’t say it’s a very good counter as it means classes without channeling abilities can’t counter stealthed targets.
why hasnt anyone said it
channeled abilitys track stealth
stupid mechanic, but it damages and tracks stealthed targets.
Do all classes have access to channel abilities? If not, then I can’t say it’s a very good counter as it means classes without channeling abilities can’t counter stealthed targets.
That’s just silly. Every class can’t have abilities to counter every other class. The only way to accomplish that is to homogenize the game to the point where there’s really only one class.
People seem to be so focused on wanting their class to be able to faceroll every other class in the game. That’s not how balance works. Some classes will be strong against your class. Other classes will be weak against it. Still other classes will be strong against the classes that are strong against you.
Maybe channeled skills aren’t prevalent enough or powerful enough to truly counter thieves? That’s a legitimate argument. But saying that “channeled skills aren’t a counter because [class x] doesn’t have any” is not.
Been playing a Thief for 41 ranks now…
Knockbacks and Knockdowns are the best counter to stealth IMO. These are what make me the most frustrated when lining up for Backstab or Tactical Strike.
Most abilities excluding a full Shadow Refuge only allow the Thief to stealth for a short period of time (5-3 seconds). As you get a feel of the game you should become aware when the Thief is going to hit you with thier ability, most of the time they will instantly try to Backstab or Tactical Strike and this is when you want to Dodge. Yes… Dodge… this is what it’s called when your character rolls quickly forward, to the side or backwards, try using it.
Also as mentioned anything that channels will track the movement of the player while in stealth. You can also notice the stealth “graphic” which appears when they re-stealth or when stealth ‘really’ fades. Many thieves use a dodge trait that will drop spurs on the ground, these appear even while they are stealth.
Tavanyl
ok i play thief,ele,engi,necro,ranger.. basically everything heres some simple rules
1. when someone stealths dont simply stop attacking. try to apply some cripples/immobilises.. alot of thiefs waste cooldown stealths if they are stunned or stuck, keep hitting that point, specially if you have a front atk aoe weapon like swords/hammers etc
2. how did they stealth? was it cloak and dagger? shadow refuge or was it a blind combo field or blinding powder?
shadow refuge= they will be inside that thing for quite a while but will receive a long stealth time on exit, if you can knock them out before its over. then they wasted it
cnd= can only do this on close contact , they are probably trying to set up a backstab or sneak atk depending on what spec they are, try no to show ur back to them, you can always keep atking, spinning or use some teleports to get out of the immediate danger safe the knowledge that most stealths last 3-4 seconds (however activating another stealth skill whilst stealth will increase stealth time.
blinding powder= used mostly as a fight opener, kinda a sneak stealth or as an oh kitten moment and they will be escaping, its not allways obvious where they are going to escape but use your judgement.
3. aoe is your friend. they are invisible but they are still there.. if you have any blast area type atks such as most of the dd mage skills, engi with bombs or grenades, or large conal atks such as rangers= no.2 axe skill which is like an aoe bleed use them.. u wont see the dmg but they will take it,
4. what type of build are they? try to tell, a glass cannon thief will typically die if caught off guard after a initial burst, are they a condition attrition build, in which case they are likely to be trying to wear u down with bleeds, these types of thief are actually harder to deal with but will likely try to stay close and on point, where they can continue to kite you..
5. personally i find mesmer stealths harder to deal with as they have so many clones, you can occasionally get fooled by them. a general tip is too call target on the mesmer, and also pay attention to the hp bars, also dont randomly atk the clones, i find its best to either use aoe to take everything out, use the clones too stealth is my personal tactic, dodge there atks , mesmers are usually squishy if you can avoid taking too much clone dmg and just focus on the mesmer,
Aurora glade [FURY] clan. Zetsu (zetsudai, zetsu mei, Zetsu Rounin)
shadow refuge= they will be inside that thing for quite a while but will receive a long stealth time on exit, if you can knock them out before its over. then they wasted it
This this this this
Knocking a player out of Shadow Refuge will not only break their stealth, it also gives them the Revealed debuff, preventing them from re-entering stealth for a short time. Also something of huge note, if you see a refuge go up don’t stop attacking! It doesn’t reflect attacks or grant retaliation or any of those other things that most dome skills cause. Keep attacking.
Roll a trap ranger and dont worry about stealth. Stand in your traps and watch a thief die trying to attack you. Even when a thief does manage to down me 1v1, they usually go down too. And rangers are awesome downed fighters.
Hard to believe no one said this yet but, necro well spells deny a thief stealth as well.
“What, you think just ‘cause you’re fake, everyone else is a gimmick?”
~Immortal Technique
~Immortal Technique
Hard to believe no one said this yet but, necro well spells deny a thief stealth as well.
That surely comes under AoE.
Hard to believe no one said this yet but, necro well spells deny a thief stealth as well.
That surely comes under AoE.
Not every aoe denies a thief stealth though, I get the revealed debuff when I walk through a necro Well spell.
“What, you think just ‘cause you’re fake, everyone else is a gimmick?”
~Immortal Technique
~Immortal Technique
most of the time they will instantly try to Backstab or Tactical Strike and this is when you want to Dodge. Yes… Dodge… this is what it’s called when your character rolls quickly forward, to the side or backwards, try using it..
This. Backstab deals crap damage when used from the front, Tactical Strike will only blind you if used from the front. Time your dodge, use your Knockbacks and AoEs, thats how I deal with them. :L
Taking the higher moral ground since 1993.
why hasnt anyone said it
channeled abilitys track stealth
stupid mechanic, but it damages and tracks stealthed targets.
Do all classes have access to channel abilities? If not, then I can’t say it’s a very good counter as it means classes without channeling abilities can’t counter stealthed targets.
That’s just silly. Every class can’t have abilities to counter every other class. The only way to accomplish that is to homogenize the game to the point where there’s really only one class.
People seem to be so focused on wanting their class to be able to faceroll every other class in the game. That’s not how balance works. Some classes will be strong against your class. Other classes will be weak against it. Still other classes will be strong against the classes that are strong against you.
Maybe channeled skills aren’t prevalent enough or powerful enough to truly counter thieves? That’s a legitimate argument. But saying that “channeled skills aren’t a counter because [class x] doesn’t have any” is not.
Well techniquely stealth has no real counter. All these things mentioned are just makeshift counters we found ways to use. The fact remains that no class has a true counter to stealth, while some don’t even have accesss to these makeshift counters. So it’s completely legitimate IMO.
btw guys CnD is not 6 secs is 3 when you can re-stealth, but keep in mind that a thief needs to hit you in order to stealth with CnD.
Pretty simple question that I haven’t been able to have answered clearly enough for me by searching and asking people in-game:
How do you counter stealth?
Such a question obviously leans toward Thieves as they use it the most, but I sincerely do not understand how the stealth mechanic in this game works. So if someone or some people could explain how it works and what its counters are, I’d appreciate it.
1. Auto-attack. Easiest way to follow the stealthed target. Will force a dodge roll from the player almost every time, making it so that they won’t have one when out of stealth.
2. AoE. For example, a thief using shadow refuge. Any knockbacks out of SR during the animation will break stealth. Use AoE cripple/chill where they stealth.
3. Create distance. If you can’t follow them with auto attacks and have no AoE, then you need to get away. Most stealths only lasts 3~4 seconds. Create some distance during this time and wait it out.
4. Channeled Abilities & Leaps. Leaps follow the stealthed target for half a second after using stealth. Channeled abilities will fully hit the target, although you will be seemingly firing into nothing. Also another easy way to track the stealthed target. Just follow the projectiles.
And despite popular belief, stealth does not give the player full health, movespeed increases, and immunity to damage & conditions.
(edited by Daays.4317)
why hasnt anyone said it
channeled abilitys track stealth
stupid mechanic, but it damages and tracks stealthed targets.
Do all classes have access to channel abilities? If not, then I can’t say it’s a very good counter as it means classes without channeling abilities can’t counter stealthed targets.
That’s just silly. Every class can’t have abilities to counter every other class. The only way to accomplish that is to homogenize the game to the point where there’s really only one class.
People seem to be so focused on wanting their class to be able to faceroll every other class in the game. That’s not how balance works. Some classes will be strong against your class. Other classes will be weak against it. Still other classes will be strong against the classes that are strong against you.
Maybe channeled skills aren’t prevalent enough or powerful enough to truly counter thieves? That’s a legitimate argument. But saying that “channeled skills aren’t a counter because [class x] doesn’t have any” is not.
Wrong. You should choose a class in this game based on what type of playstyle you enjoy. People don’t say I’m going to play ranger so I can kill elementalists, although I know warriors will kill me. For any given mechanic (such as stealth), any class should be able to be built in a way and played in a way that can counter it, that’s what defines balance.
And despite popular belief, stealth does not give the player full health, movespeed increases, and immunity to damage & conditions.
Well, technically the Fleet Shadow trait makes stealth give +33% move speed in stealth, Shadow’s Embrace removes one condition every 3 seconds while in stealth, and Shadow’s Rejuvenation grants some healing while stealthed. But the condition removal is extremely light and the healing trait is grandmaster in trait line you won’t see maxed out for burst builds.
why hasnt anyone said it
channeled abilitys track stealth
stupid mechanic, but it damages and tracks stealthed targets.
Do all classes have access to channel abilities? If not, then I can’t say it’s a very good counter as it means classes without channeling abilities can’t counter stealthed targets.
That’s just silly. Every class can’t have abilities to counter every other class. The only way to accomplish that is to homogenize the game to the point where there’s really only one class.
People seem to be so focused on wanting their class to be able to faceroll every other class in the game. That’s not how balance works. Some classes will be strong against your class. Other classes will be weak against it. Still other classes will be strong against the classes that are strong against you.
Maybe channeled skills aren’t prevalent enough or powerful enough to truly counter thieves? That’s a legitimate argument. But saying that “channeled skills aren’t a counter because [class x] doesn’t have any” is not.
Wrong. You should choose a class in this game based on what type of playstyle you enjoy. People don’t say I’m going to play ranger so I can kill elementalists, although I know warriors will kill me. For any given mechanic (such as stealth), any class should be able to be built in a way and played in a way that can counter it, that’s what defines balance.
Wrong. Classes that are strong against your build are part of the playstyle. You’re advocating for either homogenizing all classes so there’s no difference between each other or else for one class to be the “uber” class that can just stomp everyone.
1. Auto-attack. Easiest way to follow the stealthed target. Will force a dodge roll from the player almost every time, making it so that they won’t have one when out of stealth.
2. AoE. For example, a thief using shadow refuge. Any knockbacks out of SR during the animation will break stealth. Use AoE cripple/chill where they stealth.
3. Create distance. If you can’t follow them with auto attacks and have no AoE, then you need to get away. Most stealths only lasts 3~4 seconds. Create some distance during this time and wait it out.
4. Channeled Abilities & Leaps. Leaps follow the stealthed target for half a second after using stealth. Channeled abilities will fully hit the target, although you will be seemingly firing into nothing. Also another easy way to track the stealthed target. Just follow the projectiles.
And despite popular belief, stealth does not give the player full health, movespeed increases, and immunity to damage & conditions.
1. How are you following a target you can’t see? When I play thief and stealth, I see people running around auto-attacking that aren’t even close to me. You would have to be stupid to remain in melee range, and if you’re trying to hit a stealthed target with a random ranged auto-attack all I can say is good kittening luck.
2. Most AoEs require you to target a location, so again, how do you decide where to place the AoE? Shadow refuge is only one of many stealth skills and they can easily run out of it and be stealthed for awhile. Using AoE where the thief stealths assumes that when they go stealth they stop moving, this just does not happen.
3. Thieves can move faster than any other class plus have shadow step skills to teleport to you so you can’t get away. Telling someone to wait it out when a thief goes stealth is the worst advice I can think of, that almost guarantees they will be dead in a couple seconds.
4. As mentioned above, not every class has channeled abilities and they aren’t numeous enough to pose any kind of threat to a thief.
*and about your popular beliefs:
Skill Hide in Shadows – Vanish in stealth and gain regeneration. Cures burning, poison, and bleeding.
– Means thief will disappear and when they reappear they will have more health and conditions will be removed.
Skill Shadow Refuge – Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and cloaks them in stealth.
– Again, another skill that heals you in stealth.
Trait Shadow Rejuvenation – Regenerate health while in stealth.
– Yet more healing while in stealth, are you seeing how easy it is for a thief to stealth and heal to full yet?
Trait Fleet Shadow – Move 33% faster while in stealth.
– Hmm, guess stealth can increase your movement speed.
why hasnt anyone said it
channeled abilitys track stealth
stupid mechanic, but it damages and tracks stealthed targets.
Do all classes have access to channel abilities? If not, then I can’t say it’s a very good counter as it means classes without channeling abilities can’t counter stealthed targets.
That’s just silly. Every class can’t have abilities to counter every other class. The only way to accomplish that is to homogenize the game to the point where there’s really only one class.
People seem to be so focused on wanting their class to be able to faceroll every other class in the game. That’s not how balance works. Some classes will be strong against your class. Other classes will be weak against it. Still other classes will be strong against the classes that are strong against you.
Maybe channeled skills aren’t prevalent enough or powerful enough to truly counter thieves? That’s a legitimate argument. But saying that “channeled skills aren’t a counter because [class x] doesn’t have any” is not.
Wrong. You should choose a class in this game based on what type of playstyle you enjoy. People don’t say I’m going to play ranger so I can kill elementalists, although I know warriors will kill me. For any given mechanic (such as stealth), any class should be able to be built in a way and played in a way that can counter it, that’s what defines balance.
Wrong. Classes that are strong against your build are part of the playstyle. You’re advocating for either homogenizing all classes so there’s no difference between each other or else for one class to be the “uber” class that can just stomp everyone.
I think you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not saying there should be an uber class that can stomp everyone. I’m saying any class should be able to build themselves in a way that can counter another build. If I play a X class to level 80 and duel someone in WvW, and they are a condition damage based build I shouldn’t have to say “well kitten, guess I need to level another character to 80 so I can counter condition damage.” It should be, well if I use these items, and these skills, and these traits I can reasonably counter a condition damage based build. Granted, this build that can counter condition damage (if played properly) will have other weaknesses. Saying that once you choose a class you have to accept that other classes will simply kill you is extremely stupid.
1. Auto-attack. Easiest way to follow the stealthed target. Will force a dodge roll from the player almost every time, making it so that they won’t have one when out of stealth.
2. AoE. For example, a thief using shadow refuge. Any knockbacks out of SR during the animation will break stealth. Use AoE cripple/chill where they stealth.
3. Create distance. If you can’t follow them with auto attacks and have no AoE, then you need to get away. Most stealths only lasts 3~4 seconds. Create some distance during this time and wait it out.
4. Channeled Abilities & Leaps. Leaps follow the stealthed target for half a second after using stealth. Channeled abilities will fully hit the target, although you will be seemingly firing into nothing. Also another easy way to track the stealthed target. Just follow the projectiles.
And despite popular belief, stealth does not give the player full health, movespeed increases, and immunity to damage & conditions.
1. How are you following a target you can’t see? When I play thief and stealth, I see people running around auto-attacking that aren’t even close to me. You would have to be stupid to remain in melee range, and if you’re trying to hit a stealthed target with a random ranged auto-attack all I can say is good kittening luck.
2. Most AoEs require you to target a location, so again, how do you decide where to place the AoE? Shadow refuge is only one of many stealth skills and they can easily run out of it and be stealthed for awhile. Using AoE where the thief stealths assumes that when they go stealth they stop moving, this just does not happen.
3. Thieves can move faster than any other class plus have shadow step skills to teleport to you so you can’t get away. Telling someone to wait it out when a thief goes stealth is the worst advice I can think of, that almost guarantees they will be dead in a couple seconds.
4. As mentioned above, not every class has channeled abilities and they aren’t numeous enough to pose any kind of threat to a thief.
*and about your popular beliefs:
Skill Hide in Shadows – Vanish in stealth and gain regeneration. Cures burning, poison, and bleeding.
– Means thief will disappear and when they reappear they will have more health and conditions will be removed.
Skill Shadow Refuge – Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and cloaks them in stealth.
– Again, another skill that heals you in stealth.
Trait Shadow Rejuvenation – Regenerate health while in stealth.
– Yet more healing while in stealth, are you seeing how easy it is for a thief to stealth and heal to full yet?
Trait Fleet Shadow – Move 33% faster while in stealth.
– Hmm, guess stealth can increase your movement speed.
1. Depends upon the weapon you’re using. Guardian staff hits a very large area and the thief is unlikely to be able to avoid it. D/D ele attacks are the same. Various other classes and weapons have ranged arc skills, all of those will end up hitting a thief more often then not. Even if it doesn’t hit the thief, it still makes their maneuvering more difficult and time consuming. Contrary to popular belief, stealth does have a relatively short duration (except full Shadow Refuge).
2. With the exception of steal, thieves don’t teleport when they stealth. You know where they started, and probably have a good idea of where they want to go. There’s not many options for how they can get there. If they’re going to be attacking you, you can simply use yourself as the target area.
3. Chill and cripple. Thieves have extremely limited condition removal. Movement speed reducing skills basically eliminate any gap closing skills thieves have.
4. Just because something is situational doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
As for your skill references:
Hide in Shadows is a heal skill. The stealth isn’t healing the player, the heal skill just happens to grant stealth.
Shadow Refuge should be basically suicide for a thief against a player who knows how to deal with thieves. The thief cannot leave the refuge area without triggering the revealed debuff. A knockback or simply spamming skills on the small area under the dome will leave a thief much worse off than they were before they popped the skill.
Shadow Rejuvenation is not a very powerful heal and it requires 30 points in Shadow Arts to take.
Fleet Shadow only increases speed by 8% over a thief using Signet of Shadows.
why hasnt anyone said it
channeled abilitys track stealth
stupid mechanic, but it damages and tracks stealthed targets.
Do all classes have access to channel abilities? If not, then I can’t say it’s a very good counter as it means classes without channeling abilities can’t counter stealthed targets.
That’s just silly. Every class can’t have abilities to counter every other class. The only way to accomplish that is to homogenize the game to the point where there’s really only one class.
People seem to be so focused on wanting their class to be able to faceroll every other class in the game. That’s not how balance works. Some classes will be strong against your class. Other classes will be weak against it. Still other classes will be strong against the classes that are strong against you.
Maybe channeled skills aren’t prevalent enough or powerful enough to truly counter thieves? That’s a legitimate argument. But saying that “channeled skills aren’t a counter because [class x] doesn’t have any” is not.
Wrong. You should choose a class in this game based on what type of playstyle you enjoy. People don’t say I’m going to play ranger so I can kill elementalists, although I know warriors will kill me. For any given mechanic (such as stealth), any class should be able to be built in a way and played in a way that can counter it, that’s what defines balance.
Wrong. Classes that are strong against your build are part of the playstyle. You’re advocating for either homogenizing all classes so there’s no difference between each other or else for one class to be the “uber” class that can just stomp everyone.
I think you’re misunderstanding me. I’m not saying there should be an uber class that can stomp everyone. I’m saying any class should be able to build themselves in a way that can counter another build. If I play a X class to level 80 and duel someone in WvW, and they are a condition damage based build I shouldn’t have to say “well kitten, guess I need to level another character to 80 so I can counter condition damage.” It should be, well if I use these items, and these skills, and these traits I can reasonably counter a condition damage based build. Granted, this build that can counter condition damage (if played properly) will have other weaknesses. Saying that once you choose a class you have to accept that other classes will simply kill you is extremely stupid.
You’re misunderstanding the scenario and reality around balance. By balancing out every class like that you lose any diversity between classes. They might play slightly different, but essentially they all have the same tools available to them, so they’re essentially just different skins on the same class. But you’re also narrowing the situation down too far, so you lose sight of the whole picture. A good condition build will almost always kill a guardian 1v1 no matter what the guardian does. But by choosing to take the build that will kill that guardian, the condition player makes themselves more vulnerable to a vitality focused build from another class. But that vitality focused build is weak to a glass cannon spike. That glass cannon spike is weak to a toughness focused bunker. This isn’t a 1v1 game. It’s a team based game in every aspect. That’s why you don’t see teams winning tPvP by running a 5 guardian or 5 spike thief build. It’s balanced around team play, which is how it should be.
A good condition build will almost always kill a guardian 1v1 no matter what the guardian does. But by choosing to take the build that will kill that guardian, the condition player makes themselves more vulnerable to a vitality focused build from another class. But that vitality focused build is weak to a glass cannon spike. That glass cannon spike is weak to a toughness focused bunker. This isn’t a 1v1 game. It’s a team based game in every aspect. That’s why you don’t see teams winning tPvP by running a 5 guardian or 5 spike thief build. It’s balanced around team play, which is how it should be.
That’s what I said, I’m not sure where your disagreement is. Game should be balanced around builds countering builds, not classes countering classes. Not sure if the condition build vs guardian was a random example, but you can build a guardian so they are more or less immune to conditions. Shout guardians can use soldier runes and pure of voice trait to remove 2 conditions with each shout with very low CDs so they can be spammed relatively frequently. You can also go mediations focused where you get Smite condition with a very low CD, and contemplation of purity to convert all conditions into boons. Sure you can build your guardian in a way that will get destroyed by condition builds, but it’s very easy to counter if you plan on it.
I’m not sure where you get this idea that all classes will be homogenized if you allow them to counter each other. Let’s look at Starcraft 2. If it was designed so that Terran will always kill Zerg, Zerg will always kill Protoss, and Protoss will always kill Terran it would be the most boring game in the world. Esentially you’re just throwing dice. What makes it interesting is that each race can counter each other if they use the correct strategy and units, and it accomplishes this without making all the races the same thing. Races are distinguished by their play style, this is how classes should be designed.
As a thief I can say Things mentioned above counter me hard:
1. Another stealth(other thiefs and mesmers)
2. Invurnuability(Mesmers who can time it well and eles)
3. Setting up traps/aoes under yourself also channeled skills(necro/ranger)
4. Dodges/evades
5. Aoe controll skills(guardians)
6. Immobilization/daze(Net turret, mesmers daze, some other soft cc)
7.Facing your back against wall(not much chance for backstab/daze)
8.Autoattacking air(most useless but sometimes works)
These are my stealth counters, numbering is from what i feel hardest countering to me. In a row from hardest to lowest.
Former Devils Inside Thief R43
The only thing that will work is to give them cool downs like everyone else.
Does revealed count as the cooldown? Albeit it’s quite short.
Well reveal is a mechanic in use and you see how things are. I meant give each one of their abilities a cool down like every other profession.
I’d like to point out two things. One, the OP BS combo is on cooldowns, Steal, Assassin Signet, Haste and Basalisk Venom all have CDs. Two, Thieves’ initiative is a lot more limiting then people seem to think. They can’t sustain dps solely on skills like other classes because they can’t use rotations. Take an ele or warrior, when they’re out of skills on one weapon set, they can simply switch to another set/atunement. If a Thief uses all their Initiative, they’re on global CD for their weapon skills unless they replenish their initiative with a trait or utility. Sure HS, can be used in rapid succession, but can you name another damage focused thief skill that can be used more then 2 or 3 times in a row? I suppose there’s Clusterbomb, but that skill’s kinda slow, and ground target. (There’s the aquaric weapons, but aquatic thief is a whole other beast, doesn’t even have many stealths other then Hide in Shadows.)
Registered Altaholic
Part-time Kittenposter
Part-time Kittenposter
Actually IME mesmers by far use it the most.
why hasnt anyone said it
channeled abilitys track stealth
stupid mechanic, but it damages and tracks stealthed targets.
Do all classes have access to channel abilities? If not, then I can’t say it’s a very good counter as it means classes without channeling abilities can’t counter stealthed targets.
it doesnt have to be a channeled ability, but that is the most effective, just use your most drawn out cast animations when you think they will use stealth. heartseeker or any ability will track stealth, probably why they increased the projectile speed of auto attacks.
(edited by savage.3469)
1. How are you following a target you can’t see? When I play thief and stealth, I see people running around auto-attacking that aren’t even close to me. You would have to be stupid to remain in melee range, and if you’re trying to hit a stealthed target with a random ranged auto-attack all I can say is good kittening luck.
2. Most AoEs require you to target a location, so again, how do you decide where to place the AoE? Shadow refuge is only one of many stealth skills and they can easily run out of it and be stealthed for awhile. Using AoE where the thief stealths assumes that when they go stealth they stop moving, this just does not happen.
3. Thieves can move faster than any other class plus have shadow step skills to teleport to you so you can’t get away. Telling someone to wait it out when a thief goes stealth is the worst advice I can think of, that almost guarantees they will be dead in a couple seconds.
4. As mentioned above, not every class has channeled abilities and they aren’t numeous enough to pose any kind of threat to a thief.
*and about your popular beliefs:
Skill Hide in Shadows – Vanish in stealth and gain regeneration. Cures burning, poison, and bleeding.
– Means thief will disappear and when they reappear they will have more health and conditions will be removed.
Skill Shadow Refuge – Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and cloaks them in stealth.
– Again, another skill that heals you in stealth.
Trait Shadow Rejuvenation – Regenerate health while in stealth.
– Yet more healing while in stealth, are you seeing how easy it is for a thief to stealth and heal to full yet?
Trait Fleet Shadow – Move 33% faster while in stealth.
– Hmm, guess stealth can increase your movement speed.
I can see why you cry.
Maybe it’s because you’re just inexperienced with the whole stealth thing. Maybe it’s because you can’t read players. Maybe it’s because you don’t understand how mechanics work.
Your auto attack will chain to the next phase if you hit something. If you’re on a class that doesn’t have an auto attack chain, you can easily follow him by watching your combat log.
I don’t know why you think an invis target is hard to follow. Invisibility has been out in games for years. Maybe it’s because I’ve played more games over my lifetime, but following stealthed targets in GW2 is extremely easy because of all the tells and limited choices you have during stealth.
A thief C&D in your face? Well it’s obvious he’s going to get behind you. Do you honestly need to see him strafe you? Or are you that incapable of understanding classes and how they function.
Are you honestly saying you have no idea where a thief is when they SR? Really? It has an animation for Christ’s sake. SR radius is only 240 as well, meaning all ground AoE covers that. No one can cover 240 distance instantly without a teleport. Doesn’t matter if you have swiftness. See a thief/mesmer use their heal/decoy? AoE on them. Preferably a slow.
Thieves don’t move faster than any other class. In fact, using the signet for movespeed is a waste of a utility spot. It should only be used when moving OOC from point to point.There are far better signets to use. Not to mention, almost all classes have easy access to Swiftness. Signet + Swiftness doesn’t stack. So I don’t understand why you think someone running at +25% is outrunning someone at +33%.
If you’re trying to run midfight and a thief uses his teleports to you with his shortbow, you should probably fight, as shortbow single target damage is significantly less than dagger auto attack, he just swapped weapons and can’t swap back, he had 900 range anyways, and he won’t have an initiative because Infil Arrow takes 6.
And the thief traits you’re complaining about, no one takes them. Because if they do, then they’re not the 30/30/0/0/10 or 25/30/0/0/15 backstab spec’s that instagib other glass cannons. There are no complaints about thieves using other specs but those two, because it’s only those two that allow you to break the barrier for 1-shot combos.
All your complaints stem from you not wanting to learn how classes work. If you’d actually take some time to learn and play the class you’re complaining about, you’d learn how to play against stealth. And you’d also learn that it’s a false sense of security when stealthing versus good players. Like how Mesmer illusions don’t really confuse anyone except players who are new to the game. In fact, they play against them because you can see the shatters coming and adjust accordingly.
(edited by Daays.4317)
A good condition build will almost always kill a guardian 1v1 no matter what the guardian does. But by choosing to take the build that will kill that guardian, the condition player makes themselves more vulnerable to a vitality focused build from another class. But that vitality focused build is weak to a glass cannon spike. That glass cannon spike is weak to a toughness focused bunker. This isn’t a 1v1 game. It’s a team based game in every aspect. That’s why you don’t see teams winning tPvP by running a 5 guardian or 5 spike thief build. It’s balanced around team play, which is how it should be.
That’s what I said, I’m not sure where your disagreement is. Game should be balanced around builds countering builds, not classes countering classes. Not sure if the condition build vs guardian was a random example, but you can build a guardian so they are more or less immune to conditions. Shout guardians can use soldier runes and pure of voice trait to remove 2 conditions with each shout with very low CDs so they can be spammed relatively frequently. You can also go mediations focused where you get Smite condition with a very low CD, and contemplation of purity to convert all conditions into boons. Sure you can build your guardian in a way that will get destroyed by condition builds, but it’s very easy to counter if you plan on it.
I’m not sure where you get this idea that all classes will be homogenized if you allow them to counter each other. Let’s look at Starcraft 2. If it was designed so that Terran will always kill Zerg, Zerg will always kill Protoss, and Protoss will always kill Terran it would be the most boring game in the world. Esentially you’re just throwing dice. What makes it interesting is that each race can counter each other if they use the correct strategy and units, and it accomplishes this without making all the races the same thing. Races are distinguished by their play style, this is how classes should be designed.
This is getting horribly off topic but you still don’t understand anything at all. This game is already built “like Starcraft 2” as you use as an example. A marauder will always kill a zergling, but a mutalisk will always kill a marauder but a missile turret will always kill a mutalisk but a zergling will always kill a missile turret but a maurader will always kill a zergling…
Guild Wars 2 is not a 1v1 game. Therefore, it should not be balanced around 1v1, and to do so would be incredibly shortsighted and damaging to the PvP environment.
Mesmer, dodge once then drop your 2x clones which also stealths you.
Shatter when he pops and off you go..
They are easy to kill
Mirror Image does not stealth you, it just creates two clones, Decoy creates one clone and stealths you.
And a thief can use CnD every 6 seconds to restealth
Blinding powder to grant them blindness miss the shatter and re-stealth
Shadow Refuge to sit in stealth for 10 seconds
Hide in Shadows to remove all conditions grant regen and stealth
All of these abilities will make the clones stop in there tracks and just stand there.
Name one other MMO that a stealth class can teleport on to you while stealthing themselves and deal a player 50-75% of there total lifepool and re-stealth every 6 seconds. I’ll wait…
That’s the point, exactly what i want to say.