Guild Wars 2

Anyone else feel like stealth stomping needs to gtfo? I mean, the state purpose of the downed system is for players to feel like they’re not out of the fight even when they go down, they still have a chance. Not to mention that it encourages smart pvp plays like reviving teammates when the benefits out weigh the costs.

I have no issues with stability stomps, mist form stomps etc… because there are still some, all though few things you or team mates can do (if you teammates are aware and paying attention). Stealth how ever gives you no one to target for your cc or the ability to check for buffs like stability before using your cc cool downs. It also means your teammates most likely won’t even know to help you, and no one can target the ‘stomper’ for dps, you just have to hope you get lucky and someone comes in with enough aoe to do the job.

Stealth is by far the strongest stomp ability in the game, and maybe it’s just me but basically negating the entire downed state just feels a little bit over the top. Thoughts?

Its fine by me. Every class has abilities to leverage the downed state mechanic in their advantage, mostly through stability or invulnerability. Thief doesnt have this, that why they have a alternative mechanic. What you say might be true for hot join, however good players will always recognize a stealth stomp on a teammate. Guardian for exampel is impossible to stealth stomp right away due to their knockback and on my Ranger i have on demand quickness every 15 second with petswap wich allows me to get the stomp 100% of the time before the downed person can use their interrupt on me.

How exactly do you stop a mistform stomp? garantueed stomp for the other team if you dindt start rezzing the downed played right away, but im cool with it. Mistform has a long cd and if he chooses to blow it on a stomp, then he will miss out on it in the next fight.

This is true, I figured that thieves had something along the lines of a stability self buff in their possible kit somewhere… They do have blinds out the kitten tho. This being said, the warrior also may not have frenzy or stability equipped in their traits same as thieves. I thought that thieves had stealth/blinds built right into their weapon abilities tho?

Mist for stomp while annoying, is at least a single long cool down used on the stomp and they’re still vulnerable to some cc as well as easily spotted by a team mate. Because let’s face it, having to rely on teammates (especially hot join, is aggravating and usually a let down).

Good point about the quickness stomps too. Annoying as all hell! Still, maybe it’s just me, I just feel like they don’t annoy me quite as much haha. Maybe it’s something along the lines of seeing the person who kills me rather than the feeling of just getting shot in the back.

Im ok with stealth stomp too. If you see a teammate down and a thief goes stealth, you should be wildly attacking right over his body, or using 100b over his body.

Mistform stomp is way more annoying but luckily the cd on mistform is pretty long.

Yeah, hadn’t played my ele in quite a long time. Forgot that mist form makes you completely invulnerable. For some reason I still thought things like guardian knock back and fear worked… Also I thought that things/abilities already in flight pre mist form (warrior hammer for example) connected with the ele and didn’t get disjointed. I’m starting to now agree, if it wasn’t hot join and teammates could be relied on, I might have to swing my vote on over to mist form stomps from stealth stomps on most annoying.

I’m not okay with stealth stomps. The Thief class is the one class that should not have a reliable stomp and stealth is always up on a thief. If thiefs are going to have as much burst and the ultimate defense they should have a hard time stomping.

Any glass thief already has a hard time stomping because standing still through the whole stomp duration tends to get you killed by AOE’s.

Stability stomping is much stronger than stealth stomping anyways…

Yup. I hate alot of things about the thief class, but Stealth stomps are not broken. Invulnerable stomps are way more so. Maybe its because i’m a warrior though, and its really, really easy for me to stop a thief stealth stomping a teammate; Its like a guaranteed kill cause the stomp animation just roots them there for a free 100b kill.

This might be of help. Various ways classes can help against stealth stomps:
Warrior – HB, Shield Bash
Thief – Shadow Refuge/Blinding Powder teammate
Mesmer – GS knockback, Chaos Storm, Mass Invisibility, Illusion of Life
Engineer – Stealth from smoke field/blast finisher, Big Ol Bomb, Shield 4, any of the other pushbacks
Ranger – Quickness revive, Traps on downed player, pet fear, Elite Spirit
Necromancer – Fears, wells on downed player, Signet
Guardian – Any of the infinite knockback skills
Elementalist – Earthquake, Updraft bla bla

fact is: if you are being stomped by a stability one, you have no chances to block him.
if you are being stomped by a stealth one, you can simply pull him off or stun him to prevent its stomp.
it is only a visual effect bu stealth DOES NOT GIVE any other kind of buff. stealthed ones can be hit, can be killed can be CC’d.

Think before write.

Elementalist = vapor stomp (invulnerable)
Warrior = stability/endure pain/quickness
Ranger = stability/quickness
Necro = stability/blind
Guardian = stability
Engineer = stability/blind/quickness
Mesmer = distortion

In all of this case you can hit who stomp but in ele/mesmer u don’t do dmg at all (means is the best way to stomp). Thieves are invis but still there so ppl complain about nothing because u can hit what u don’t see…just do aoe near your downmate and u have a thief downed in no time.

Engie can elixir stomp too. Its rarer compared to mistform stomp, but functionally the same

Hi I just met you
And this is crazy
But here’s my stealth stomp
So nerf me maybe ?

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Anyone else feel like stealth stomping needs to gtfo? I mean, the state purpose of the downed system is for players to feel like they’re not out of the fight even when they go down, they still have a chance. Not to mention that it encourages smart pvp plays like reviving teammates when the benefits out weigh the costs.

I have no issues with stability stomps, mist form stomps etc… because there are still some, all though few things you or team mates can do (if you teammates are aware and paying attention). Stealth how ever gives you no one to target for your cc or the ability to check for buffs like stability before using your cc cool downs. It also means your teammates most likely won’t even know to help you, and no one can target the ‘stomper’ for dps, you just have to hope you get lucky and someone comes in with enough aoe to do the job.

Stealth is by far the strongest stomp ability in the game, and maybe it’s just me but basically negating the entire downed state just feels a little bit over the top. Thoughts?

this is false, any damage wills till hit the thief, and any non targeted CC will affect the thief.

stability stomp is by far the strongest

but hell, at this point if it was removed it wouldnt even matter to me save for the fact then youll start complaining about blind stomps.

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Anyone else feel like stealth stomping needs to gtfo? I mean, the state purpose of the downed system is for players to feel like they’re not out of the fight even when they go down, they still have a chance. Not to mention that it encourages smart pvp plays like reviving teammates when the benefits out weigh the costs.

I have no issues with stability stomps, mist form stomps etc… because there are still some, all though few things you or team mates can do (if you teammates are aware and paying attention). Stealth how ever gives you no one to target for your cc or the ability to check for buffs like stability before using your cc cool downs. It also means your teammates most likely won’t even know to help you, and no one can target the ‘stomper’ for dps, you just have to hope you get lucky and someone comes in with enough aoe to do the job.

Stealth is by far the strongest stomp ability in the game, and maybe it’s just me but basically negating the entire downed state just feels a little bit over the top. Thoughts?

Thief can’t stability. No need to check for it.
Spells hit for .5seconds after stealthing. All channeled abilities hit through stealth.

Which means you can stop the thief from finishing his stomp if you’re a warrior or necro. All other classes don’t have to worry about it as they either have aoe, invuln, or invis.

Stealth stomping is only useful versus people who don’t understand game mechanics.

If you stealth to stomp, and are stealthed the entire time, you are reserving something like shadows refuge, or are combo’ing CnD and the steal from a thief.

Basically, if someone is stomping you and stealthed the entire time, they are going out of their way to do it. Otherwise every other single stealth source cant keep them stealthed long enough, which should give you time to react.

Shukran.4851:

it is only a visual effect bu stealth DOES NOT GIVE any other kind of buff. stealthed ones can be hit, can be killed can be CC’d.

Not true. the buff is that the thief is immune to all targetted skills while stealthed. That’s a huge buff.

I don’t like stealth stomps. The others aren’t so bad because they have a high recharge. A player has to decide if it’s worth it to use Mist Form for a stomp in order to guarantee the kill because they’ll lose their panic button for 45 seconds.

Clark Skinner.4902:

Shukran.4851:

it is only a visual effect bu stealth DOES NOT GIVE any other kind of buff. stealthed ones can be hit, can be killed can be CC’d.

Not true. the buff is that the thief is immune to all targetted skills while stealthed. That’s a huge buff.

I don’t like stealth stomps. The others aren’t so bad because they have a high recharge. A player has to decide if it’s worth it to use Mist Form for a stomp in order to guarantee the kill because they’ll lose their panic button for 45 seconds.

How many skills are there out there that require a target that aren’t a downed skill?

Seems to me stealth stomping is mediocre at best in any situation other than a 1v1 where the thief has already downed you.

Well on my S/D ele, there are 8 that require targets out of 18 skills that can affect an enemy. In addition, 2 of the remainder fire in a narrow line, and it is a waste to fire them without being certain the target is going to remain in front of you for 1 second.

Of the 4 auto-attacks, 3 will do no damage without a target, and the last is a straight-ahead line attack that is the weakest of them all.

I could understand for classes that can swing a sword until the thief is visible, but it’s quite difficult for other classes.

I don’t think elementalist is a good example of someone that has difficulty stoping a stealth stomp…….. pbaoe knockdown, and bunch of aoe skills? At worst the thief stomps your teammate, then dies soon after from damage he took.

Of the classes i play in sPvP (warrior/ele/mesmer/necro/thief), the only one that has trouble stopping a stealth stomp on a teammate is my mesmer really, and thats only if im on staff when it occurs and cant switch back to my sword due to cd. It should very easy for a guardian to stop it (KBs galore); not sure how well a ranger or engie can stop it, but at least more than half the classes can easily stop a stealth stomp

Clark Skinner.4902:

Well on my S/D ele, there are 8 that require targets out of 18 skills that can affect an enemy. In addition, 2 of the remainder fire in a narrow line, and it is a waste to fire them without being certain the target is going to remain in front of you for 1 second.

Of the 4 auto-attacks, 3 will do no damage without a target, and the last is a straight-ahead line attack that is the weakest of them all.

I could understand for classes that can swing a sword until the thief is visible, but it’s quite difficult for other classes.

“In addition, 2 of the remainder fire in a narrow line, and it is a waste to fire them without being certain the target is going to remain in front of you for 1 second”

But isnt the thief stomping? And standing still? And arent you certain that they are right there, where your mate is downed? And for a lot more than 1 second? Not sure if i follow this, but ure just a usual costumer of the Cry Shop, so…

Wolfe.3097:

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Anyone else feel like stealth stomping needs to gtfo? I mean, the state purpose of the downed system is for players to feel like they’re not out of the fight even when they go down, they still have a chance. Not to mention that it encourages smart pvp plays like reviving teammates when the benefits out weigh the costs.

I have no issues with stability stomps, mist form stomps etc… because there are still some, all though few things you or team mates can do (if you teammates are aware and paying attention). Stealth how ever gives you no one to target for your cc or the ability to check for buffs like stability before using your cc cool downs. It also means your teammates most likely won’t even know to help you, and no one can target the ‘stomper’ for dps, you just have to hope you get lucky and someone comes in with enough aoe to do the job.

Stealth is by far the strongest stomp ability in the game, and maybe it’s just me but basically negating the entire downed state just feels a little bit over the top. Thoughts?

this is false, any damage wills till hit the thief, and any non targeted CC will affect the thief.

stability stomp is by far the strongest

but hell, at this point if it was removed it wouldnt even matter to me save for the fact then youll start complaining about blind stomps.

When someone stealth’s, you loose target and there is a very short window where you can start an attack or projectile before a target stealths and still have it hit them. Also not every class is lucky enough to have a non targeted cc in their downed abilities. Yeah sure, you can rely on teammates, but the whole point of the downed state is to make you (singular, not your team) feel like you still have a fighting chance, that is the stated design purpose and I just feel that stealth stomps really do just the opposite quite well, same as mist form stomps. I never said anything about OP this, or OP that. I just said it’s annoying as all hell during 1v1’s and really feels contrary to the objective of the downed system.

Now, this being said, while I haven’t shouted “OP! OP! NERFFFFF!” from the rooftops, I am certainly opening the mechanics of stealth stomp, mist form stomp, etc… etc… up to thoughts and debate. They’re after all very, very powerful.

You need to see the stomp before you know there’s one to interrupt.

Eduardo.4675:

“In addition, 2 of the remainder fire in a narrow line, and it is a waste to fire them without being certain the target is going to remain in front of you for 1 second”

But isnt the thief stomping? And standing still? And arent you certain that they are right there, where your mate is downed? And for a lot more than 1 second? Not sure if i follow this, but ure just a usual costumer of the Cry Shop, so…

The one will miss stationary objects a lot of the time, it’s so hard to make hit. You have to be facing right where the stealthed person is standing, really close. The other will do 3% damage to his hp as it’s water’s auto attack, which is the weakest one and still may miss if you aren’t sure where in the circle around the ally the stealthed person is. I could have left those 2 skills out to strengthen my argument but for completeness and fairness I listed them. I have never shed a tear playing this game, in case you were concerned.

s/d ele? wow switch earth.stun and tons of dmg.
switch water aoe dmg
switch fire phoenix & co.

Lulz, errybody wants to nerf everythang on the Thief.

Nothing is really OP about the Stealth Stomp. If you want to remove that, then you need to remove anything that gives people Invuln and Immunity when stomping too.

Honestly, stealth rezzing is more OP than stealth stomping.

Clark Skinner.4902:

Well on my S/D ele, there are 8 that require targets out of 18 skills that can affect an enemy. In addition, 2 of the remainder fire in a narrow line, and it is a waste to fire them without being certain the target is going to remain in front of you for 1 second.

Of the 4 auto-attacks, 3 will do no damage without a target, and the last is a straight-ahead line attack that is the weakest of them all.

I could understand for classes that can swing a sword until the thief is visible, but it’s quite difficult for other classes.

Um this is a SERIOUS L2P issue. S/D ele has probably the easiest time out of all classes damaging or stopping a stealth-stomping thief.

Dragon’s Tooth, Phoenix, Ring of Fire, Fire Grab, Updraft, Shatterstone, Water Trident, Earthquake, Churning Earth. Plus most viable utilities besides cantrips.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Honestly, stealth rezzing is more OP than stealth stomping.

I completely agree with this. Rezzing itself is extremely fast, paired with invulnerbility, stability or stealth it’s pretty much impossible to stop. (I.e. you’re not gonna stop a bunker guard with stability from rezzing without 3 people, or an ele with mistform, or a stealthed thief/mesmer)

Archonis.7249:

Lulz, errybody wants to nerf everythang on the Thief.

Nothing is really OP about the Stealth Stomp. If you want to remove that, then you need to remove anything that gives people Invuln and Immunity when stomping too.

No one is calling for nerfs, just discussing the topic and the stated intentions of the downed system vs the current reality of the downed system. Also, thieves are not the only ones who can stealth stomp. We’ve also been talking about mist form stomps, quickness stomps etc… etc… in this thread. It was just that stealth stomps in particular where on my mind when I started the thread. Although I do believe in my OP I touched on mist form and stability stomps as well and some of the differences between those and stealth stomps.

If you are asking for them to be diminished, then you are indeed asking for nerfs.

Well let me quote you, because you apparently forgot what you typed.

“Anyone else feel like stealth stomping needs to gtfo?” and then you say “I have no issues with stability stomps, mist form stomps etc…”

So from the way you typed things, it looks like you want to have Stealth Stomps removed and all the other ability assisted stomps are just fine and dandy. Anyone with invulnerability, quickness and stability are just as OP as a stealth stomp from your point of view.

I swear, people just won’t be happy until thief is near worthless in SPvP.

Thief can be annoying for the person downed, but it’s not OP at all. It’s safer for the other classes more than it is for thief.

I honestly don’t see the difference between a Stealth stomp and a Stability stomp.

Stealth stomps might not require a long CD, but they can be interrupted.

Stability stomps or Quickness stomps on the other hand are very hard to interrupt but require a CD.

Considering that Thieves don’t really have access to Stability outside of Daggerstorm I think it’s a fair trade off.

Archonis.7249:

If you are asking for them to be diminished, then you are indeed asking for nerfs.

Well let me quote you, because you apparently forgot what you typed.

“Anyone else feel like stealth stomping needs to gtfo?” and then you say “I have no issues with stability stomps, mist form stomps etc…”

So from the way you typed things, it looks like you want to have Stealth Stomps removed and all the other ability assisted stomps are just fine and dandy. Anyone with invulnerability, quickness and stability are just as OP as a stealth stomp from your point of view.

I swear, people just won’t be happy until thief is near worthless in SPvP.

I’m not asking for them to be diminished, I’m asking for other peoples opinions on the topic, more to the point of ‘does it suit the stated purpose and intentions of the downed system. You also implied things on my own statements, maybe I didn’t convey myself quite the way I meant to, or perhaps in your over aware state of thief defense you miss judged what I was saying. I didn’t actually say anything to the tune of, stop it, or diminish it, what I did do tho was express my frustrations and then open the topic and my own opinions up to those of others to invoke discussion as it was something I felt to be a prudent topic.

Now, you also go on to misconstrue another part of my OP by taking it out of context. One of my biggest frustrations with the stealth stomp in comparison to the stability stomp is that you loose the ability to even put out damage on your opponent which could be enough to:
A. Help your team
B. Help yourself and get the all important rally.
More times than I can count, that last single bit of dps was the difference between victory and defeat. It just makes you feel useless and helpless, which is the opposite of the systems goal.

I also discussed my original thoughts on mist form not being quite so bad because I thought some targeted cc and aoe cc’s where still effective, (had barely played my ele and wasn’t aware it made you completely immune).

Now, before you go and take any of this out of context. My intentions where more of discussing things, and looking at the downed system in a player vs player context, not team situations because the goal of the system is to make you the player feel like even tho you’re down, you’re not out of the fight. It’s not made to be an, ‘Oh kitten I might get lucky if my team isn’t kitten and is paying attention’ type of deal. Although we can’t ignore the fact that so far PVP in GW2 is pretty much always going to have some team aspect to it, so we can’t completely look at this in a ‘vacuum’.

Dee Jay.2460:

I honestly don’t see the difference between a Stealth stomp and a Stability stomp.

Stealth stomps might not require a long CD, but they can be interrupted.

Stability stomps or Quickness stomps on the other hand are very hard to interrupt but require a CD.

Considering that Thieves don’t really have access to Stability outside of Daggerstorm I think it’s a fair trade off.

They don’t have stability, but blinds are essentially the same thing. Doesn’t matter if you’re immune to cc if you can’t be hit by it in the first place. That being said, anyone know of any hard cc you can land while blinded? Do any non targeted cc’s still connect?

alot of things about thief really annoy me (deathblossom builds are at the top of the list)
IMHO downed is a big waste of time, i’d want to just respawn and get it over with.
so stealth stomping does’nt bother me,
plus all classes have mechanics that make stomping trivial:
engineer – invul / stability / stealth
ele – stability /mist form
warrior – stability / quickness
mesmer – stealth / stability
thief – stealth / quickness
guardian – stability
necro – DS stability
ranger – quickness / stability

all of these could be used in the fight to help down the player, or saved until the player is downed for an easy finish.

Is it only me, who thinks, that saying that necro can use stability is a little bit wrong?
There’s stability on one trait, and you cannot stomp being in ds, so you just have to turn on and off immediately.

I’m not saying here, that something is op, or not. I’m just saying, that comparing stealth to necro’s stability is not smart.

Divus.3175:

Is it only me, who thinks, that saying that necro can use stability is a little bit wrong?
There’s stability on one trait, and you cannot stomp being in ds, so you just have to turn on and off immediately.

I’m not saying here, that something is op, or not. I’m just saying, that comparing stealth to necro’s stability is not smart.

question is: when should a necro stomp? btw necro can blind opponents. blind blocks antistun skills.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Honestly, stealth rezzing is more OP than stealth stomping.

Stealth/hasted rezzing makes thief probably the second best rezzer after guardian…too bad the majority of thieves are crazy glass cannons, and they’re going to die before rezzing someone xD

Archaon.6245:

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Honestly, stealth rezzing is more OP than stealth stomping.

Stealth/hasted rezzing makes thief probably the second best rezzer after guardian…too bad the majority of thieves are crazy glass cannons, and they’re going to die before rezzing someone xD

I love being a tanky thief, so fun. I drop that Shadow Refuge or Blinding Powder and rez rez rez or stomp stomp stomp.

BTW I innately hate you because your name is too close to mine. :P

Shukran.4851:

question is: when should a necro stomp? btw necro can blind opponents. blind blocks antistun skills.

Have you try doing that?
My question is: why some classes are not designed to stomp? (looking at their efficiency in doing this)

Liewec.2896:

alot of things about thief really annoy me (deathblossom builds are at the top of the list)
IMHO downed is a big waste of time, i’d want to just respawn and get it over with.
so stealth stomping does’nt bother me,
plus all classes have mechanics that make stomping trivial:
engineer – invul / stability / stealth
ele – stability /mist form
warrior – stability / quickness
mesmer – stealth / stability
thief – stealth / quickness
guardian – stability
necro – DS stability
ranger – quickness / stability

all of these could be used in the fight to help down the player, or saved until the player is downed for an easy finish.

Ds stability? sure? you need 30 points on a trait to get that, and you can’t stomp during shroud so you need to shorud and stomp almost at the same time, and half of the time it doesn’t work.

even if i’m doing something wrong, and you can always get shroud stomp 100% of the time, you still have to compromise half of you traits to get it, don’t tell me that is fair.

Ps> stability is not half as safe as stealh, during stabilty you can get feard (boon corruption)or killed, during stealth, if no one has some sort of AoE cc you are safe.

Vilar.2680:

Liewec.2896:

alot of things about thief really annoy me (deathblossom builds are at the top of the list)
IMHO downed is a big waste of time, i’d want to just respawn and get it over with.
so stealth stomping does’nt bother me,
plus all classes have mechanics that make stomping trivial:
engineer – invul / stability / stealth
ele – stability /mist form
warrior – stability / quickness
mesmer – stealth / stability
thief – stealth / quickness
guardian – stability
necro – DS stability
ranger – quickness / stability

all of these could be used in the fight to help down the player, or saved until the player is downed for an easy finish.

Ds stability? sure? you need 30 points on a trait to get that, and you can’t stomp during shroud so you need to shorud and stomp almost at the same time, and half of the time it doesn’t work.

even if i’m doing something wrong, and you can always get shroud stomp 100% of the time, you still have to compromise half of you traits to get it, don’t tell me that is fair.

Ps> stability is not half as safe as stealh, during stabilty you can get feard (boon corruption)or killed, during stealth, if no one has some sort of AoE cc you are safe.

You aren’t safe in stealth. You just can’t be targeted. You can still be hit with direct damage, CC’d and AOE’d.

I would suggest playing a Thief and maybe you can see what I am talking about.

Archonis.7249:

You aren’t safe in stealth. You just can’t be targeted. You can still be hit with direct damage, CC’d and AOE’d.

I would suggest playing a Thief and maybe you can see what I am talking about.

I tried, stomping as a thief is not as difficult as stomping as a necro. Stealth is still much better than nothing.

It’s fine with cooldowns, but I’d like to see stealth stomping disabled from cloak & dagger.

let’s make a deal:
every thief can not stompe while in stealth, but..when thief stomp he is vulnerable ONLY to CCs. thief take NO damage while stomping.

ok?

because you know, a thief which is stomping infront of enemy can be downed by downed autoattacks, opponent’s teammates attacks, cc, conditions..and every thief is supposed to play cannon glass .
if you can’t mengae to be stomped by a stealthed thief, let’s see how can u deal with this idea.
let me guess…QQ rage spike in 3..2…

Shukran.4851:

let’s make a deal:
every thief can not stompe while in stealth, but..when thief stomp he is vulnerable ONLY to CCs. thief take NO damage while stomping.

ok?

because you know, a thief which is stomping infront of enemy can be downed by downed autoattacks, opponent’s teammates attacks, cc, conditions..and every thief is supposed to play cannon glass .
if you can’t mengae to be stomped by a stealthed thief, let’s see how can u deal with this idea.
let me guess…QQ rage spike in 3..2…

Yea, tell me about it lol.

As a glass cannon thief, you lose over half of your health trying to stomp anyone. That is only damage coming from the downed person. Stealth stomp is the only way we can really stomp and a lot of times I am still taking damage lol.

If every class should be able to do something vs a stealth stomp because “everyone should have a fighting chance when downed” then as a Thief, we need to get all zero animation teleports nerfed.

Once a player starts the stomping animation we cannot get out of range of their teleport so they will just port within stomp range of us and finish their first try.

Agree with OP, stealth stomp is quite unfair and maybe a bit OP … The thief can come from a distance stealthed all the time and stomp you without you knowing …

KratosAngel.7289:

Agree with OP, stealth stomp is quite unfair and maybe a bit OP … The thief can come from a distance stealthed all the time and stomp you without you knowing …

yes 4 seconds out we can stealth from…woot