Guild Wars 2

Many players on these boards like to QQ about burst, thief burst in particular. Has anyone stopped to ask why so many thieves roll burst? Here’s your answer; Our survival mechanics being Stealth and (to a lesser extent) Mobility are to blame.

All classes have survival mechanics, some more unique than others – high base HP, higher base Armor, a number of block/immune skills, frequent condition removals, frequent small heals to help mitigate damage taken, etc etc. A Thieves primary survival mechanics are stealth and mobility, neither of which allow you to effectively defend or secure a point.

I’ve rolled a huge number of different thief builds, and what it comes down to is, without stealth and lots of dodging around, no amount of toughness and vitality will save you. Extremely high toughness/vit builds last a bit longer than your average thief, but have absolutely no killing power. Jack of all trade builds (where you try to keep all your stats fairly high) suffer from needing just a bit more – just a bit more mitigation to drop that glass cannon before he gets you, just a bit more damage to kill that bunker before he won the war of attrition, just a few more seconds of survivability for CD’s to refresh… etc.

I currently run a P/D Bleeds/attrition build that is just fantastic at outlasting most other classes (it of course has hard and soft counters, but in my opinion is the most robust of thief builds). It is however useless in TPvP – I can’t Cap or defend a point because my survivability is based on dodging attacks (which will take you off a cap point at times), and stealth, which stops you from capping/defending points entirely.

All of a thief’s key survivability talents are in the Shadow arts tree (+toughness/healing), and are based around stealth – regenerating health, curing conditions, faster initiative gain while in stealth, blinding surrounding enemies on stealth, gaining might when stealthing… our survivability trait line is very obviously stealth based. Whenever I stealth, an opposing players trained reaction is to dodge roll immediately (to avoid the backstab that isn’t coming), so I’m stuck in stealth at least 2 seconds before I can effectively start attacking them – additionally, health regen and condition removal (2 of the powerful stealth based survivability mechanics) are time based, meaning you’ll want to stay in stealth as long as possible to reap their benefits. It only takes 5 seconds for me to lose a point, and 14 to reclaim – Even if I only use stealth as a means to gain sneak attack (since P/D does abysmall damage without it), I’ll generally end up losing the point. This is why so few thieves focus on survivability – Who cares how long you live if you’re not contributing meaningfully to the team?

In addition, we don’t have a way to gain stability for stomping – our options are black powder, and stealth. Both work fine, I’m not complaining about that, but realize in a 1 on 1, if you stealth to stomp, that’s 3-4s your downed opponent is capping your point, almost guaranteed to neutralize it if you’ve had to use stealth at all during the fight (hint – you have). In close games, where Neutralizing a cap for 14 seconds can be the difference between a win and a loss, this is a very big deal.

So, just to be clear, I’m not saying Stealthed thieves should cap points – that would be too powerful. I honestly don’t have a suggestion how the issue could be addressed, and I’m not even 100% sure it needs to be. Just realize in the future, the next time a thief Haste->Pwhip spams you to death, realize he doesn’t have alot of other choices.

I understand your frustration, but it seems like the current setup is the most balanced. Thieves aren’t good point defenders for the reasons you mentioned. They’re phenomenal roamers, though. The best in the game, in fact.

They’re also one of the best 1v1 classes in the game, which makes them good at taking points from single defenders. Granted, you may not be ticking that point over while you’re murdering the person standing on it, but you can often kill them quickly enough that that’s kind of a moot point.

Long story short, a Thief’s role in competitive PvP is roaming. They’re not good point defenders. But that’s why you bring a Guardian or Engi, right?

mouse.1689:

I understand your frustration, but it seems like the current setup is the most balanced. Thieves aren’t good point defenders for the reasons you mentioned. They’re phenomenal roamers, though. The best in the game, in fact.

They’re also one of the best 1v1 classes in the game, which makes them good at taking points from single defenders. Granted, you may not be ticking that point over while you’re murdering the person standing on it, but you can often kill them quickly enough that that’s kind of a moot point.

Long story short, a Thief’s role in competitive PvP is roaming. They’re not good point defenders. But that’s why you bring a Guardian or Engi, right?

I agree to an extent, and I’m not really looking to complain. It’s just kind of unfortunate, since most classes in this game can choose tank, glass cannon burst, or anything in between and still contribute to their team in a meaningful way, whereas it seems thief has to be content with roaming and bursting players down, because what else can they do effectively?

While I may or may not agree with Thieves in particular, I think people seriously overestimate the effectiveness of stealth and kiting in a game that revolves around capture points.

Awww, poor little thief has to roam and burst people to feel effective….try playing Necro. No burst option, lowest mobility. Only real options are either mediocre tanky spec or condition spec which stacks slower then ranger/thief.

@Aga

By all means, if you feel Necro’s are UP, bring it up where appropriate – this isn’t the place. Post something constructive, or don’t post at all, I’m not interested in trolls.

You’ve basically summed up a variety of builds of all professions…congratulations.

Pyrial.2917:

You’ve basically summed up a variety of builds of all professions…congratulations.

I don’t follow – How often do other classes who spec for survivability/attrition lose their cap points due to their classes mechanics?

As far as I’m aware (and I admit I could be wrong on this), shield wall, ignore pain, renewed vigor (or whatever the Guardian elite is called), Necro forms which give a second healthbar definitely don’t prevent capping. I also believe (but again am not sure) an engi can keep capping while Elixir-S’d, and also Ele’s in vapor form.

evilapprentice.6379:

Pyrial.2917:

You’ve basically summed up a variety of builds of all professions…congratulations.

I don’t follow – How often do other classes who spec for survivability/attrition lose their cap points due to their classes mechanics?

As far as I’m aware (and I admit I could be wrong on this), shield wall, ignore pain, renewed vigor (or whatever the Guardian elite is called), Necro forms which give a second healthbar definitely don’t prevent capping. I also believe (but again am not sure) an engi can keep capping while Elixir-S’d, and also Ele’s in vapor form.

You’re just QQ’ing for the sake of QQ’ing. Do you expect thief to be the master of every role? Thief has far more versatility then a lot of other professions in the current meta game.

Aga.8641:

evilapprentice.6379:

Pyrial.2917:

You’ve basically summed up a variety of builds of all professions…congratulations.

I don’t follow – How often do other classes who spec for survivability/attrition lose their cap points due to their classes mechanics?

As far as I’m aware (and I admit I could be wrong on this), shield wall, ignore pain, renewed vigor (or whatever the Guardian elite is called), Necro forms which give a second healthbar definitely don’t prevent capping. I also believe (but again am not sure) an engi can keep capping while Elixir-S’d, and also Ele’s in vapor form.

You’re just QQ’ing for the sake of QQ’ing. Do you expect thief to be the master of every role? Thief has far more versatility then a lot of other professions in the current meta game.

Do explain – be sure to use examples in attempt to prove your point, rather just talking out of your kitten . If you have a valid, well thought out point you’d like to express, I’d love to hear it and consider it.

Endure Pain, Elixir S, Mist Form, and much more also remove your ability to hold a point as well. Thieves need to ignore stealth in order to be a point defender, and they can actually do a decent job with the Heal-Evasion-Condi build they have. As good as an Ele or Guardian? Probably not, but then the other 5 professions aren’t either.

Just an additional quick note (since the edit feature constantly disappears on these forums, it’ll have to be a separate post) – anyone who had bothered to read the post (well, really just the bolded lines and the last paragraph, but I suppose even 6 sentences is a strain), I’m not asking stealth to be changed – I understand thieves aren’t a bunker class, and I don’t expect them to change to one. I’d personally love it, but I admit it isn’t something I ever expect to really work.

I was simply pointing out for the all the thief burst QQ posts that thief is typecast into that spec, since our survivability isn’t suited for point defense, the only available PvP at the moment.

Evilapprentice you are wasting your time to be honest. You raise a valid point but the hatred doesn’t let people to judge and discuss this topic objectively. Do you know why the Thief profession is the most hated profession?

The Thief profession has the following attributes:

- Mobility
- Low Health
- Low Armor
- Trickery (shadowstep, shadowreturn, stealth)

Any class in any game which has these attributes will automatically be a “high risk, high reward” class that punishes bad players and rewards good players. Why do so many people cry about Thief instead of making a Thief and playing that “oh so overpowered” backstab build? There is no level barrier or gear barrier in GW2 sPvP, so why? I’ll tell you! They play the profession, they own a few noobs but get owned twice as much in return by players who know what they are doing and then they realize that they don’t have the skill to compete with the good Thief players. Some players might choose to practice and improve, but most of them will cry on the forums.

I played Thief from the start and I can take on 2-3 of these noob thieves and defeat them with my D/D condition build. If anyone is complaining about a Thief and he complains about Backstab or Heartseeker, that is a clear sign that he is clueless. The 3 strongest Thief builds are venom control support, pistol whip and D/D condition build.

Let them cry all they want, Arenanet knows better. The Thief is not going to get nerfed anytime soon, in fact I promise you that sooner or later the Thief will be buffed. P/P is very weak in sPvP, Flanking Strike pathing is very unreliable and Scorpion Wire is not working properly, you can expect buffs to these points. Quickness will probably be nerfed a bit, but that will be a global change.

At the end of the day the best player wins in GW2.

I met an Elementalist in sPvP who kited and survived myself and 2 other people for a good 20-30 sec before we downed him, I doubt any of us would have gotten him in a fair fight.

Eh, I expect scorpion wire to get fixed soon, other than that, minimal changes to Thief.

Thieves do not serve as point defense, it’s simply too difficult to do so in their class structure. It’s possible, but far, far outshined by the stronger bunker classes.

They are, however, incredibly good at assiting a defense, and capturing of a Point, which, paired with their stealth and movement speed, solidify their role as roamers.

Trying to place thief in a defensive bunker role is just bad approach to the class. They’re better moving from point to point, undetected and assisting an ally bunker by staying out of the constant visual spectrum of the fight and providing harassment/spike damage.

They’re also good at assassinating other roamers in transit to points.

Yes, in a capture the point game, thieves can fall off when it comes to bunkering down on the point. But the full of the game is much more than that. Enemies have to get to the points, they have to keep and defend them. And Thief excells at the type of harassment and assasination that comes with a class that has powerful stealth and movement skills.

TL;DL, if you play a thief, play a roamer.

I met an Elementalist in sPvP who kited and survived myself and 2 other people for a good 20-30 sec before we downed him, I doubt any of us would have gotten him in a fair fight.

Elementalists make uber point defenders..so many different cc’s loads of toughness[2.1-2.2k] sit at 19-20k, have almost perma protection,great condition removal, loads of heals and a pet that heals you.. and have plenty of escape options so i’m not surprised lol the only thing i am surprised about is that there arent more ele PD’s it’s easier to PD on a ele than using a guardian/engi/warrior in my experience, and i can still out damage engineer tanks/guardian tanks through burning/bleeds/direct damage