Guild Wars 2

Copy and pasted from a post I made.

Backstab: (2255*2.4*952.5/1924)x(1.10*1.15) = 3389.3
Crit: 3344.2*1.873 = 6348.2

If taking executioner and below 50% health: 7617.8

So 7k is certainly possible on a light armour class (no toughness obviously) if you take executioner. For a 9k BS you’d probably need scholar and a bit of might or as Cynz says might and vuln.

Obviously if you’re trying to backstab a bunker guard it will do significantly less. By less I mean block block block block….

apharma.3741:

Copy and pasted from a post I made.

Backstab: (2255*2.4*952.5/1924)x(1.10*1.15) = 3389.3
Crit: 3344.2*1.873 = 6348.2

If taking executioner and below 50% health: 7617.8

So 7k is certainly possible on a light armour class (no toughness obviously) if you take executioner. For a 9k BS you’d probably need scholar and a bit of might or as Cynz says might and vuln.

Obviously if you’re trying to backstab a bunker guard it will do significantly less. By less I mean block block block block….

yea, you do around 7.6k on a target below 50% life with a zerker thief and cs/sa/trickery and executioner taken. but at this times you find that much protection/invulns/passive invulns, shrouds whatever flying around that the only thing you will kill with that backstab is another thief. and if you do so and another enemy is around your 11.5k life will get shred in about 2seconds or some random aoe

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

T raw.4658:

I’ll say it again.

If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player.

As for the whole mobility vs 1v1 ability debate. Look thief gave up its team fighting ability for the mobility it has. The fact now that the 1v1 ability is gone should be reversed.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will try to shout down my PoV and that’s ok. It won’t work due to them having absolutely zero facts to counter me but they can voice their opinion.

They don’t have to shout you down, they only need to ask you to prove what you say in the first place. You have yet to offer any proof that 1v1 with “equal skill” that a thief will lose.

Here’s a nice video from Sindrener. I would assume anyone with an MMR capable of being put in a match up with players of Sindrener’s level certainly doesn’t need to L2P, especially when they’re in the WvW guild he is/was in. Also Katru did an amazing job.

Don’t get me wrong, some classes/builds thief cannot 1v1 at all but it’s not helpless against all classes. The discussion in the vid is nice to.

Sinderer, Levin and Toker play with best teams out there. Not everyone has such luxury. Thief needs a good team to actually have any impact on match. Try to pull that with pugs in your average daily yoloq. You know what happend to Levin when he did pugquest and had crappy team? He couldn’t do anything. Period.

I mean by that logic every class should be balanced around top 3 teams and trust me you wouldn’t be facerolling on mesmers right now and talking soo all mighty if Anet actually balanced mesmers around Frostys or Heleths skill level.

Firstly that video is not all with oRNG, the first few where he 1v1 a mesmer which is what I was asked to provide. Proof a thief can 1v1 other classes successfully and if you read the comments on the vid they estimate thief vs mesmer is 50/50.

Secondly, were any mesmers, you know the ones that are competing with the same thief role carrying any teams? That’s the only way you can make a good “thief so bad in pug quest” argument. You said in a post that was deleted Levin faced a team with a very experience DD ele. Comparing the two of them is a rediculous thing to even begin to try and is insulting to everyone’s intelligence so don’t start with it.

As for your Helseth comment, he did say after the mirror blade nerd Mesmer was balanced, go figure.

1. Sinderer was better, mes shouldn’t lose to thief atm. Period.
2. I queue with Frosty frequently, he does carry pugs we get. Also, i am glad you follow all my posts, i assume i should thank you for mods visits.
How is it ridicilous? Please tell me~
3. Helseth mains mesmer and is known for being rather subjective, yeah we should totally believe every word he says.

1. really depends on the mesmer’s build. A decent thief should not have any 1v1 problems vs. a mesmer running the meta tournament build (Dom/Duel/Chaos w/ portal). It’s seriously a L2P issue if you’re losing 1v1s to that.

A typical solopug PU mes with MOD is about 50/50 and just boils down to cooldown management and baiting the MODs. Note that taking out portal removes a lot of the support that the mesmer offers to his team.

A full on mantra dueling mes (either dom/duel/insp or duel/chaos/insp) should not lose to a thief unless he gets hugely outplayed.

People do’nt take executionner much these days anyway. Improv is just too good.

Cynz.9437:

someone is having flashbacks from 2013….

People’s opinions would have to had changed since 2013 for them to be flashbacks

apharma.3741:

T raw.4658:

I’ll say it again.

If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player.

As for the whole mobility vs 1v1 ability debate. Look thief gave up its team fighting ability for the mobility it has. The fact now that the 1v1 ability is gone should be reversed.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will try to shout down my PoV and that’s ok. It won’t work due to them having absolutely zero facts to counter me but they can voice their opinion.

They don’t have to shout you down, they only need to ask you to prove what you say in the first place. You have yet to offer any proof that 1v1 with “equal skill” that a thief will lose.

Here’s a nice video from Sindrener. I would assume anyone with an MMR capable of being put in a match up with players of Sindrener’s level certainly doesn’t need to L2P, especially when they’re in the WvW guild he is/was in. Also Katru did an amazing job.

Don’t get me wrong, some classes/builds thief cannot 1v1 at all but it’s not helpless against all classes. The discussion in the vid is nice to.

The mesmers in that video that he fought were horrible…. they literally would turn away from him so he could backstab them.

Luclinraider.2317:

Honestly, I respect your opinions, but I play several classes, and I’m sure if you do the same you’ll agree that thief is the least forgiving, squishiest, and least unique class in the game with the least tech at their disposal.

1. What I mean by this is our tech is stealth…but half the other classes get this as well. Thief doesn’t get rage, or clones, or a second life bar, or tons of buff distribution, or kits and turrets, or a pet, or stances (rev). So right of the bat, whats special about us…..isn’t that special

2. All the other classes have means of survival……..not thief. What I mean by this is that Several classes have the invincibility button. The ones that don’t have mechanics that are nearly just as good, like block all incoming attacks, dodge all incoming attacks, or just plain get an extra life bar to eat those extra attacks. Thief has stealth, but plenty of other people have this as well, on top of that, we still take damage in stealth…this combined with thief being nerfed to have the lowest health pool, makes us easily the squishiest class.

3. This squishyness combined with the lowest health pool, along with our main damage being melee range, makes us the least forgiving. I mean when I play my Ele, or my War, if I make a mistake and attack into an invuln target, I can just mist form away, or invuln to wait them out. If I make this mistake on a thief I am instantly dead. I cannot restealth for 4 seconds…and since I have the lowest health pool, that’s more than enough time to kill me. Even if I make it into stealth I can be burst so low that I die plenty of times even once in stealth. The only scenario in which a class should have to continually put themselves in this kind of danger with EVERY engagement is if “Backstab” read: “Strike and opponent from behind, dealing 100% of their max health in damage”. Sounds ridiculous right? Of course….but the way back stab reads now is: Deals 2,300 damage, if you don’t down them in 4 seconds or less, you lose 100% of your max health…the problem with this is that thief is in no way anywhere near the highest burst class. Burn guards, Mes, Ele, they all outburst us….so why do we have to risk so much for our burst when it pales in comparison to others?

Final- Thief has no special mechanic. And in the end, stealth is not a viable excuse for the PvP in this game. What I mean is that ALL the maps with the exception of one are about holding down points, or pushing down lanes. Stealth only provides the opportunity to run away. So yes, we may get to run away…but this means you’ve taken the points, or you’ve pushed us away from your gate. This means thief will NEVER be a viable class in this games PvP EXCEPT in courtyard, where escaping with your life is actually preserving your score.

Now I know that most all of the pro teams run 1 thief in their teams for rotation. But just look at that….the thief is run not for their stealth, not for their damage, not for their team tech….they are run 1 of for their 5 skill on their OFF-HAND. What this means is the only thing we do better than another class is blink around….which is great and all….better than not being good at anything I guess. But in the end, this is Player vs Players, not Track Running simulator. We want to contribute more to our team than just running around, praying we don’t run into any enemies because in an equal skill scenario, thief cant’ 1v1 any other class.

With all of the elite specs shown, it seems thief is just sinking deeper into the hole, and once again, lack any tech. Ele’s charge into super charged, Rangers have a celestial form, Engi has robots, War has Zerker form/fire, Necro has Reaper form, Guard got traps (Bunker even harder), thief got….and extra dodge…..once again, EVERYONE can dodge….so we get 1 more dodge than everyone else, kinda like we get a little more stealth than everyone……

Every other class gets all these unique things about them, and thief is continuously made to be less and less effective in all aspects of PvP AND PvE.

Thief really needs to be redone.

I wouldn’t say thief is the least forgiving…I mean D/P SA Vamp Runes just carries bad players yet net good to above average results. It’s like how the kitten do you die unless you want to or afk.

Now I’m going to ask a VERY interesting question that I would enjoy honest answers from.

Pre June 23rd what classes could mesmer counter?

@lighter We’re talking meta builds not Dueling builds. What happens when the other classes use dueling builds as well?

Same thing thanks

If OP was refering to Stronghold then I would agree. Why take a Thief when a Mesmer, between portal and mass invis (omg mass invis!) would be waayy more viable for the game mode.

Thief would be good at ruuuning to treb… ruuunning between offense or defense to +1 either side then ruuuning supplies when there’s no where else to ruuun.

Quite boring and not nearly as significant as Thief in Conquest. Other than that… I have to agree with the other posters. Thief is top two in Conquest in terms of how big of an impact the class could have in the gamemode.

sercommander.6817:

yeah, crocodile tears
Stealth – Stun – burst to 0% HP – Stealth – Stomp UNINTERRUPTED whether with melee and ranged
and pretty much all the necessary skills have condi removal and OP disengage abilities
nope, needs nerf

My goodness, what profession do you play? A golem???

I play a Thief, and I can’t even remember the last time a Thief’s single burst took me down to 0 even with stealth and stuns. Stunbreakers are your friends.

I’m pretty certain you don’t play as Thief, though. Only one weapon skill (Sword 2) clears a condition. Only two utilities clear general conditions unless traited. Any other removal through utilities is for specific conditions (eg. Immobilized). Condition removal is usually left to Shadow’s Embrace which requires Stealth and time.

Curunen.8729:

Heh, just like people won’t stop complaining how overpowered Mesmer is even if they are nerfed down to the damage/survivability of a single clone.

Some things are irrational. ‘shrug’

Haha, I don’t play Mesmer, so I don’t have any basis to judge :-P

And at the risk of being inconsistent, even though I don’t have access to Burning, I have died way too much from it, so it seems over the top :-P

The way I see it is that Thieves should fight dirty. They should always be at a disdvantage in a straight up brawl, but using “unfair” tactics well should result in them winning more often than not.

Unfair could be blind or interrupt spam, teleporting all over the place, or, yes, stealth.

But trying to circle around trading blows? Thief should lose. Like, all the time.

I’ve crit for 11k with backstab constantly but i was using D/D with DA CS and Trickery with 11k health. yeah i felt like i was playing dark souls with how much i would die. dark souls is actually easier cause i could dodge more than 2 times. so D/D the new dark souls

ArcanistSeven.8720:

I’ve crit for 11k with backstab constantly but i was using D/D with DA CS and Trickery with 11k health. yeah i felt like i was playing dark souls with how much i would die. dark souls is actually easier cause i could dodge more than 2 times. so D/D the new dark souls

Marauder amulet is cool, use it.

Nocta.5274:

ArcanistSeven.8720:

I’ve crit for 11k with backstab constantly but i was using D/D with DA CS and Trickery with 11k health. yeah i felt like i was playing dark souls with how much i would die. dark souls is actually easier cause i could dodge more than 2 times. so D/D the new dark souls

Marauder amulet is cool, use it.

i do use but sometimes i just wanna play the worlds fragilest glass canon

all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that

zxstanyxz.8769:

all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that

Thieves have the potential to hit very hard, that’s for sure. But they have to sacrifice almost everything to do it.

I landed a 17.8k Backstab on another Thief a couple of weeks ago in PvP. But I had to use a trapper build to do it. I had to get him to trigger 3 traps in 3 seconds before I could Backstab him. To do so, it pretty much requires him to come to a point I’ve already set a trap on, so no actual engaging on any other terms. It’s a complete and total ambush build. And if the target doesn’t go down immediately, I’m in a WHOLE lot of trouble.

zxstanyxz.8769:

all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that

I call BS since one of your many invulns should have proc’d thus eliminating insta death and allowing you to insta pwn him.

Claims made by the OP:

-Thief has no unique mechanics. Steal, Stealth attacks, dualwield and Initiative are apparently not unique…

-Thief has nothing defensive besides stealth. Blind, Teleports and Evades out of the whazoo are apparently not going to help anyone stay alive.

-Thieves are bad. The only reason “pro-teams” (that word alone is hilarious in gw2) run a Thief is one single skill. Just one.

-Stealth attacking a target who mitigated the attack reveals the Thief from stealth. Not like we’ve been seeing threads for years now asking for this to actually be the case.

I can only conclude that this guy has never actually played a Thief.

T raw.4658:

zxstanyxz.8769:

all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that

I call BS since one of your many invulns should have proc’d thus eliminating insta death and allowing you to insta pwn him.

Not if it goes from over 50% health to nothing in one hit. Afaik they only proc when hit under a health threshold.

apharma.3741:

T raw.4658:

zxstanyxz.8769:

all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that

I call BS since one of your many invulns should have proc’d thus eliminating insta death and allowing you to insta pwn him.

Not if it goes from over 50% health to nothing in one hit. Afaik they only proc when hit under a health threshold.

Then you realized he lived through the 14k BS and supposedly died afterwards….

Nice try

T raw.4658:

apharma.3741:

T raw.4658:

zxstanyxz.8769:

all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that

I call BS since one of your many invulns should have proc’d thus eliminating insta death and allowing you to insta pwn him.

Not if it goes from over 50% health to nothing in one hit. Afaik they only proc when hit under a health threshold.

Then you realized he lived through the 14k BS and supposedly died afterwards….

Nice try

not everyone runs vamp runes or self-regulating defense.

T raw.4658:

apharma.3741:

T raw.4658:

zxstanyxz.8769:

all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that

I call BS since one of your many invulns should have proc’d thus eliminating insta death and allowing you to insta pwn him.

Not if it goes from over 50% health to nothing in one hit. Afaik they only proc when hit under a health threshold.

Then you realized he lived through the 14k BS and supposedly died afterwards….

Nice try

You said proc’d an invuln but all invulns for engineer require you to be hit while under a threshold. If a back stab takes you from above that threshold to down it doesn’t proc.

Nice try at dismissing my statement but you’re wrong as usual.

zxstanyxz.8769:

all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that

Read bolded and realized that explanation says he wasn’t insta downed by the back stab. That means he would have hit the threshold.

It also means he had more than ample time to hit an invuln skill or block skill.

Thus we’ll file this under the BS category and go about our business.

T raw.4658:

zxstanyxz.8769:

all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that

Read bolded and realized that explanation says he wasn’t insta downed by the back stab. That means he would have hit the threshold.

It also means he had more than ample time to hit an invuln skill or block skill.

Thus we’ll file this under the BS category and go about our business.

no i wasnt insta downed, but i was dead within about 1.5 seconds afterwards so not really much time to respond there… especially as it was from a multitude of condi’s if i recall correctly (and kitten knows engi’s have kittenty condi clear)

zxstanyxz.8769:

T raw.4658:

zxstanyxz.8769:

all i know is i got hit by a 14k backstab a few nights ago playing a cele engi… yeah theives cant burst at all, needless to say i died pretty kitten quick after that

Read bolded and realized that explanation says he wasn’t insta downed by the back stab. That means he would have hit the threshold.

It also means he had more than ample time to hit an invuln skill or block skill.

Thus we’ll file this under the BS category and go about our business.

no i wasnt insta downed, but i was dead within about 1.5 seconds afterwards so not really much time to respond there… especially as it was from a multitude of condi’s if i recall correctly (and kitten knows engi’s have kittenty condi clear)

I completely and utterly rest my case. Thank you for this wonderful insight into thief OPness

Kageseigi.2150:

Quadox.7834:

They conclude that thief is weak because it is weak at the things they want to do (1v1, teamfight?).

I would define it as “weak” because it is very fragile and doesn’t have the damage output as other professions do. So it is weak both defensively and offensively.

Yes, it is very mobile, but it can be mobile and weak simultaneously.

And while speed is a “stregnth,” being fast does not make the Thief “strong.” It simply makes it fast.

So you think thief is weak because of low damage output/low survivability outside of stealth?

You agree Thief is strong in the metagame on a team, facing other teams?

Quadox.7834:

So you think thief is weak because of low damage output/low survivability outside of stealth?

You agree Thief is strong in the metagame on a team, facing other teams?

Whoa, missed this post, oops!

I say the meta-Thief is physically weak no matter the situation. It may be fast, it may be evasive, but it is most definitely weak. There is a difference between “strength” and “mobility.”

It’s getting into wordplay, of course, but yes the Thief is glass, and glass is weak. And its cannon is also not powerful enough to be considered strong, relatively speaking.

So yes, that is why I use the term “weak” instead of “strong.” I believe it is accurate to say the Thief is weak and mobile. It can use the mobility to great advantage, of course, but that doesn’t change its physicality.

Basically… the Thief is “a strength” of a team just as mobility is “a strength” of the Thief. But the Thief itself is not “strong.” Again, it’s wordplay… an adjective compared to a noun, each with a slightly different meaning.

Kageseigi.2150:

Quadox.7834:

So you think thief is weak because of low damage output/low survivability outside of stealth?

You agree Thief is strong in the metagame on a team, facing other teams?

Whoa, missed this post, oops!

I say the meta-Thief is physically weak no matter the situation. It may be fast, it may be evasive, but it is most definitely weak. There is a difference between “strength” and “mobility.”

It’s getting into wordplay, of course, but yes the Thief is glass, and glass is weak. And its cannon is also not powerful enough to be considered strong, relatively speaking.

So yes, that is why I use the term “weak” instead of “strong.” I believe it is accurate to say the Thief is weak and mobile. It can use the mobility to great advantage, of course, but that doesn’t change its physicality.

Basically… the Thief is “a strength” of a team just as mobility is “a strength” of the Thief. But the Thief itself is not “strong.” Again, it’s wordplay… an adjective compared to a noun, each with a slightly different meaning.

Enough of your babbling semantics.

Thief is strong in Conquest. Top 3 pick in terms of TPvP viability.

A Thief shouldn’t be the best brawler class AND best +1 roamer class. Yes, stealth and speed is definitely a valid argument (thread title).

Wether the thief is weak or not is not a problem.
Un-fun is the problem of thieves in PvP.
What makes thieves feel unfun is that the most important thing in PvP is conquer the points(in almost all the map) but thieves could hardly do anything about it cuz thieves are not good at 1v1 fightings. If a class could do nothing about conquer or guard a point, it means this class is useless and leads to unfun.
My idea about this is :
Give thieves skills the ability to make targets can’t conquer the point for their team for a short while. For example : a new skill called Brain-Damaged Venom, the poisoned target will conquer the point for opposite team for 6 sec (3 sec while in ranged) and immune brain-damaged for 12 sec once poisoned if he\she is standing in the ring. Only on strike with this venom and run away is also a funny thing. And then thieves can take points (at least neutralise it) without defeat the target in 1v1. They could prove their worth in PvP by this way.
Sorry for my pool English and wish devs can understand it.

runeblade.7514:

Jasher.6580:

Thief is NOT the weakest class in PvP.

Yes, that title goes to the ranger.

Have you ever won 1v1 vs ranger as thief?
Just cuz its not meta, meta shifts fast with every patchnote.
Rangers are getting buffed and buffed to the point they will soon deal more dmg than warriors in melee.

tons of cc, tons of dmg both range dmg and melee and even pet, cc from pet, insane defensive traits(protection on dodge(NOT EVADE), 33% dmg reduc if not under 90% hp aoe weaken + protection when hit.

I hate when ppl say ranger is worst class in pvp when ranger can just outright kill every class in 1v1. Hes just not suited for conquest that makes him not meta.

Nocta.5274:

Thief is like top4 in pvp. Stop saying we’re weak because you dislike what Thief’s role is.

This argument again, thief isn’t under powered because top teams always have one…well i’m sorry that’s a completely dumb automated retort. What’s the % of GW2 players in the ‘top teams’ – very small id think.

Your average player and even more so with the massive F2P influx have probably never watched a league match nor do they know what a thief’s supposed ‘role’ is in pvp. They just want to go into pvp have a few fights and play with their friends on an even footing. I know this because since F2P was introduced six of my friends have joined GW2, two of which I’ve tried to dissuade from playing thieves, which in itself is a shame and speaks volumes about the class.

Having any class in Gw2 that stands very little chance in a 1v1 no matter how well you play it isn’t good for the game, especially at a time when we have the opportunity to get new players hooked on PVP and create a healthier environment for us all.

Fade.5904:

Nocta.5274:

Thief is like top4 in pvp. Stop saying we’re weak because you dislike what Thief’s role is.

This argument again, thief isn’t under powered because top teams always have one…well i’m sorry that’s a completely dumb automated retort. What’s the % of GW2 players in the ‘top teams’ – very small id think.

Your average player and even more so with the massive F2P influx have probably never watched a league match nor do they know what a thief’s supposed ‘role’ is in pvp. They just want to go into pvp have a few fights and play with their friends on an even footing. I know this because since F2P was introduced six of my friends have joined GW2, two of which I’ve tried to dissuade from playing thieves, which in itself is a shame and speaks volumes about the class.

Having any class in Gw2 that stands very little chance in a 1v1 no matter how well you play it isn’t good for the game, especially at a time when we have the opportunity to get new players hooked on PVP and create a healthier environment for us all.

This^^ is exactly problem a lot of “l2p” defenders don’t understand. Class having high skill cap is ok, but balancing class so it has only support role and is ONLY playable by top players and require absolute top teams in the world for it to work is simply stupid from economical view point. Why is it ok for other classes to be accessable but thief is just “be absolutely amazing and have top team or uninstall”?

The funny part is, if nothing changes, once xpac hits i wouldn’t be surprised of those top thieves would reroll revenant/mes or anything else for that matter.

Not a teef player but shouldn’t daredevil give you guys more viable roles? It focuses on helping you survive without necessarily needing stealth through evades and weakness, and a lot of the interrupt traits look like they could be very powerful in 1v1s, which is the weakness of most theif builds when they try to fight bruisers.

nearlight.3064:

Not a teef player but shouldn’t daredevil give you guys more viable roles? It focuses on helping you survive without necessarily needing stealth through evades and weakness, and a lot of the interrupt traits look like they could be very powerful in 1v1s, which is the weakness of most theif builds when they try to fight bruisers.

drd is ok vs bad/mediocre players, it is still subpar to old sd and even current dp sa vs decent enemies, imo

- it is extremely selfish,
- it offers no dmg mitigation (besides that 10% after dodge if you take corresponding GM), you WILL run out of dodges and you WILL die really fast if there is persistent aoe/getting focused
- condi removal actually requires you to successfuly evade an attack (sounds good on paper, is actually not that useful imo if you consider amount of condis thrown around)
- trickery is so mandatory now, drd build only works with dodges so you need acro as well > that means you get no dmg traits from CS or DA

the list is pretty long but you may as well just visit thief forums if you want to know what’s wrong with drd and why it is not really a solution to thief woes

i tried drd in both beta weekends and found it extremely underwhelming; on other hand i had no issues killing drd thieves on standard dp sa :/

also, besides drd, xpac shouldn’t be p2w…. it was really wrong from begin with to nerf everything thieves had just to offer (rather underwhelming) drd elite spec

lemme cut off your legs so i can sell you this wheelchair <<<basically what happend to thieves

Cynz.9437:

nearlight.3064:

Not a teef player but shouldn’t daredevil give you guys more viable roles? It focuses on helping you survive without necessarily needing stealth through evades and weakness, and a lot of the interrupt traits look like they could be very powerful in 1v1s, which is the weakness of most theif builds when they try to fight bruisers.

drd is ok vs bad/mediocre players, it is still subpar to old sd and even current dp sa vs decent enemies, imo

- it is extremely selfish,
- it offers no dmg mitigation (besides that 10% after dodge if you take corresponding GM), you WILL run out of dodges and you WILL die really fast if there is persistent aoe/getting focused
- condi removal actually requires you to successfuly evade an attack (sounds good on paper, is actually not that useful imo if you consider amount of condis thrown around)
- trickery is so mandatory now, drd build only works with dodges so you need acro as well > that means you get no dmg traits from CS or DA

the list is pretty long but you may as well just visit thief forums if you want to know what’s wrong with drd and why it is not really a solution to thief woes

i tried drd in both beta weekends and found it extremely underwhelming; on other hand i had no issues killing drd thieves on standard dp sa :/

also, besides drd, xpac shouldn’t be p2w…. it was really wrong from begin with to nerf everything thieves had just to offer (rather underwhelming) drd elite spec

lemme cut off your legs so i can sell you this wheelchair <<<basically what happend to thieves

Would SA/trIckery/DD work? Panic strike doesn’t seem like the end all be all even though it’s a powerful proc, but as a non thief player your concerns do make sense to me, especially considering the acro traitline controversy needed to balance DD.

And yeah during BWE2 I destroyed a staff DD with the reaper GS on a soldiers build, which is perhaps the easiest to dodge weapon in the game.. So yeah there’s that.

Thief is pretty weak in regards to 1v1

being pigeonholed into a singular role based entirely on support mechanics (+1ing, rez-botting, etc) is not balance. in the grand scheme of all forms of PvP and not just tPvP, thief’s “role” is only present in one iteration of pvp and is totally worthless outside of conquest.

Infiltrator’s Arrow and Merciful Ambush does not make up for a severely lacking 1v1 presence or a lacking teamfight presence.

T raw.4658:

Now I’m going to ask a VERY interesting question that I would enjoy honest answers from.

Pre June 23rd what classes could mesmer counter?

@lighter We’re talking meta builds not Dueling builds. What happens when the other classes use dueling builds as well?

Same thing thanks

here’s the thing, a good mesmer could definitely compete with d/p thief if they took Mantra of Distraction and s/t instead of staff pre-23rd patch. s/d thief was the only true hardcounter mesmer had and now s/d has dropped out of the meta. mesmer is now the strongest power profession in the game against other power builds (and many non-power specs as well) and is completely unmatched in damage potential. just look at the most recent AG 1v1 tournament, the vast majority of the winners circle was made of mesmer players.

also, the misconception that “dueling builds” are a separate entity altogether from “tpvp builds” is laughable at this point. in almost all cases, the best dueling build is also the best tpvp build for a profession so there is literally no basis in thinking dueling performance has no relevancy in regards to tpvp performance:

strongest ele dueling build? celestial d/d.
strongest ele tpvp build? celestial d/d.
strongest guardian dueling build? burn guard.
strongest guardian tpvp build? burn guard (+ bunker guardian)
strongest thief dueling build? shadow arts d/p.
strongest thief tpvp build? shadow arts d/p.
strongest necro dueling build? celestial signet.
strongest necro tpvp build? celestial signet.
strongest ranger dueling build? power ranger/condition ranger.
strongest ranger tpvp build? power ranger/condition ranger.
etc.

T raw.4658:

I’ll say it again.

If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player.

As for the whole mobility vs 1v1 ability debate. Look thief gave up its team fighting ability for the mobility it has. The fact now that the 1v1 ability is gone should be reversed.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will try to shout down my PoV and that’s ok. It won’t work due to them having absolutely zero facts to counter me but they can voice their opinion.

Just wanna say about losing to a thief… often a thief will win because of Ping. Ping adds a lot of power to stealth that isn’t actually part of the game. If we were all playing on a LAN I’d be more inclined to agree with you…

I’ve played a fair bit of thief and the playstyle of thief has pretty much (imo) been getting worse and worse ever since the game began. Thief was actually awesome in pre-launch Beta and didn’t ‘rely’ on stealth at all. Lots has changed since then, and imo I think what would save Thief would be if Anet completely reworked the stealth mechanic – unusable/limited use in combat would be a great start and that would force some positive changes (imo).

Mefiq.7039:

runeblade.7514:

Jasher.6580:

Thief is NOT the weakest class in PvP.

Yes, that title goes to the ranger.

Have you ever won 1v1 vs ranger as thief?
Just cuz its not meta, meta shifts fast with every patchnote.
Rangers are getting buffed and buffed to the point they will soon deal more dmg than warriors in melee.

tons of cc, tons of dmg both range dmg and melee and even pet, cc from pet, insane defensive traits(protection on dodge(NOT EVADE), 33% dmg reduc if not under 90% hp aoe weaken + protection when hit.

I hate when ppl say ranger is worst class in pvp when ranger can just outright kill every class in 1v1. Hes just not suited for conquest that makes him not meta.

Yes multiple times. Stealth = immunity to projectiles.

I sit in stealth and then backstab him from behind. Then drop blackpowder to make his knockback useless and probably the taunt as well.

Then keep autoattacking, and heartseeker through the blackpowder for stealth then to do another backstab. The ranger then gets immobilized from panic strike and I can take down the rest of his hp. If he uses signet of stone/lightning reflex, I just daze/stealth away and backstab him even further..

Saiyan.1704:

Thief is strong in Conquest.

But again, that is not an accurate statement.

The Thief is a strength (an asset) in Conquest.
The Thief is not strong at all.

There is a very important difference between the two.

Dirtyrascal.1023:

T raw.4658:

I’ll say it again.

If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player.

As for the whole mobility vs 1v1 ability debate. Look thief gave up its team fighting ability for the mobility it has. The fact now that the 1v1 ability is gone should be reversed.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will try to shout down my PoV and that’s ok. It won’t work due to them having absolutely zero facts to counter me but they can voice their opinion.

Just wanna say about losing to a thief… often a thief will win because of Ping. Ping adds a lot of power to stealth that isn’t actually part of the game. If we were all playing on a LAN I’d be more inclined to agree with you…

I’ve played a fair bit of thief and the playstyle of thief has pretty much (imo) been getting worse and worse ever since the game began. Thief was actually awesome in pre-launch Beta and didn’t ‘rely’ on stealth at all. Lots has changed since then, and imo I think what would save Thief would be if Anet completely reworked the stealth mechanic – unusable/limited use in combat would be a great start and that would force some positive changes (imo).

ZOMG realy?
This is the most crazy thing I’ve read vs thieves on this forum. You guys realy don’t have any better argument to show us the ‘’ thief OPness’’ that now even the ping is a buff to thief?
Ah ah ah realy man, thieves got hit hard cos bad connections help and favour them in 1v1?
Also do you know that thief is the hardest class if not impossible to play with high latency?

Kolly.9872:

Also do you know that thief is the hardest class if not impossible to play with high latency?

Hahaha, as someone who get hit and fast by spikes of lag, I’ve often joked that it results in one of two things…

I become either a sitting duck… or an unstoppable killing machine. And it varies with any given spike.

Haha, I would love to see what my poor Thief looks like when catching a lag spike in the middle of a fight. I can only imagine what my opponent sees… me teleporting here and there and everywhere… with a bit of damage mixed in. I’ve actually survived some “zerg dives” in WvW because of it. I really wis I could get a reply! :-D

Kolly.9872:

Dirtyrascal.1023:

T raw.4658:

I’ll say it again.

If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player.

As for the whole mobility vs 1v1 ability debate. Look thief gave up its team fighting ability for the mobility it has. The fact now that the 1v1 ability is gone should be reversed.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will try to shout down my PoV and that’s ok. It won’t work due to them having absolutely zero facts to counter me but they can voice their opinion.

Just wanna say about losing to a thief… often a thief will win because of Ping. Ping adds a lot of power to stealth that isn’t actually part of the game. If we were all playing on a LAN I’d be more inclined to agree with you…

I’ve played a fair bit of thief and the playstyle of thief has pretty much (imo) been getting worse and worse ever since the game began. Thief was actually awesome in pre-launch Beta and didn’t ‘rely’ on stealth at all. Lots has changed since then, and imo I think what would save Thief would be if Anet completely reworked the stealth mechanic – unusable/limited use in combat would be a great start and that would force some positive changes (imo).

ZOMG realy?
This is the most crazy thing I’ve read vs thieves on this forum. You guys realy don’t have any better argument to show us the ‘’ thief OPness’’ that now even the ping is a buff to thief?
Ah ah ah realy man, thieves got hit hard cos bad connections help and favour them in 1v1?
Also do you know that thief is the hardest class if not impossible to play with high latency?

Jeez dude, don’t get your knickers in knot, I’m not saying anything controversial here, or that Thieves are OP. Sometimes you get hit by a thief and he’s in stealth again before you’ve had a chance to even see what hit you… it happens… it’s a ping issue… just saying… no big deal.

You said “If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player” – so shouldn’t this statement be true in a balanced game… that the worse player loses? Or are you saying that people playing Thieves should be able to beat other players who are actually better than them because they rolled a thief?

I would echo what others have said… Thief isn’t underpowered, they just are very good at a roll that not a lot of people (Thieves) (including myself) are interested in playing. Also a LOT of people playing thieve’s don’t really understand what their roll is in the current meta and they get themselves repeatedly killed in situations they shouldn’t have been in.

Like I said : " imo I think what would save Thief would be if Anet completely reworked the stealth mechanic – unusable/limited use in combat would be a great start and that would force some positive changes (imo)"

IMO = In my opinion (not sure if you got that bit)

runeblade.7514:

Jasher.6580:

Thief is NOT the weakest class in PvP.

Yes, that title goes to the ranger.

Thank you, wonder if ANET has been asleep at the wheel for 2 years.

TBH rogue is always the most uninspired and predictable class as far as gameplay, its always the same. I don’t see where anet could even take it.

Cynz.9437:

Fade.5904:

Nocta.5274:

Thief is like top4 in pvp. Stop saying we’re weak because you dislike what Thief’s role is.

This argument again, thief isn’t under powered because top teams always have one…well i’m sorry that’s a completely dumb automated retort. What’s the % of GW2 players in the ‘top teams’ – very small id think.

Your average player and even more so with the massive F2P influx have probably never watched a league match nor do they know what a thief’s supposed ‘role’ is in pvp. They just want to go into pvp have a few fights and play with their friends on an even footing. I know this because since F2P was introduced six of my friends have joined GW2, two of which I’ve tried to dissuade from playing thieves, which in itself is a shame and speaks volumes about the class.

Having any class in Gw2 that stands very little chance in a 1v1 no matter how well you play it isn’t good for the game, especially at a time when we have the opportunity to get new players hooked on PVP and create a healthier environment for us all.

This^^ is exactly problem a lot of “l2p” defenders don’t understand. Class having high skill cap is ok, but balancing class so it has only support role and is ONLY playable by top players and require absolute top teams in the world for it to work is simply stupid from economical view point. Why is it ok for other classes to be accessable but thief is just “be absolutely amazing and have top team or uninstall”?

The funny part is, if nothing changes, once xpac hits i wouldn’t be surprised of those top thieves would reroll revenant/mes or anything else for that matter.

Tbh, if a top thief hasn’t rerolled mesmer now then it’s either 1. They suck completely with Mesmer as they haven’t played it enough or the more likely 2. A thief is better for what they want/play style than the mesmer.

I don’t see SA thief being replaced by top tier teams completely but we might see some variety. I guess we’ll find out in a month.

Btw isn’t that top point about being only support kinda what clerics warrior is reduced to now? Especially when you consider zerker warrior is only viable if a team builds around it.

Thief main here ~
Running s/d sb~

And I love my job. I’m great at decapping points. I’m great at finishing off those who run away. And the best part?
I’m not a quitter. I find a good enemy player, no matter what class he choose to I try to 1v1 him if he is protecting points.
So far I dont think Ive lost against a single class/build.
Sure I kill them, and then they kill me. But atleast I can beat it about 70% of the time.
I’m not running stealth at all so the reveal is not something Iam afraid of.

All it takes is this:
See what your opponent team consists of.
Know what they are capable of
Know what build they run (usually after a first encounter you get a good feel for it)
Find out their weakness
Find their strength (What do I dodge? The 9k crit attack or an auto?)
Don’t suicide

Whenever I see more then two people going somewhere I leave the point. I can rarely win a 2v1 and Iam just wasting my time and the teams time. Instead I quickly rotate somewhere else, maybe mid has a few weakened enemies. Maybe far is unprotected.
Maybe I can just sneak around and decap the point the two enemies just took from me. Maybe I can steal creature. Maybe I can wear down a door real quick.
Maybe I can assassinate the treb guy and give my team an advantage.
Maybe 3 people chase me and actually think they can catch up to me. So I waste their time on a chase. You will never catch up to me. Never.

This is some of the tips I can give you. I find thief most enjoyable because it is quite versitile if you know how to play it

@Inflames.8026: please record your games. I want to see that 70% win rate and players you fought

Reality is: i am sitting right now in match, we have 2 people and then 3rd afk’d after a while because we have 2 thieves on team and neither of thieves wanted to switch class on request from team. THIS speaks for itself. I am literary getting griefed in game RIGHT NOW because i play thief.

Ofc devs are not responsible for player behavior completely but their terrible class balancing is the cause why i am getting griefed by players. Thank you guys…

You are getting griefed because two thieves are not ideal. Why? Because you dont need two decappers. :]

Inflames.8026:

You are getting griefed because two thieves are not ideal. Why? Because you dont need two decappers. :]

2 or even 3 of anything is fine in yoloq but not 2 thieves….. THIS is just wrong. You actually try to justify griefing? Seriously? Wow.