VERSION 2:
For those that read through the original, here is a change log. Unfortunately, the original thread was not able to be edited for the new changes.
Baseline:
Traitlines now control utility-cooldown reductions
The full “Sleight of Hand” trait is now baseline
Deadly Arts:
Renamed “Poisoneer” to “Deadly Weapons”
Combined “Uncatchable” and “Trapper’s Respite”
Altered and moved “Leeching Venoms” to Adept tier
Removed “Deadly Trapper”
Added new “Poisoned Goods” to Master tier
Altered and moved “Venomous Aura” to Master tier
Added new “Iocane Resistance” to Grandmaster tier
Critical Strikes:
Altered “Keen Strikes”
Moved "Ankle Shots/Strikes to Adept tier, combined with “Sitting Duck”
Removed “Signets of Power”
Added and altered “Sundering Strikes” in Adept tier
Replaced “Sundering Tolerance” with “Lead Attacks” from Trickery
Added new “Cleanup Hitter” in Master tier
Added new “Critical in a Clutch” in Master tier
Altered “Ferocious Executioner”
Shadow Arts:
Altered “Concealed Defeat”
Altered “Meld with Shadows”
Altered “Hidden Thief”
Removed “Elusive Shadow”
Added new “Master of Shadows” in Grandmaster tier
Acrobatics:
No change
Trickery:
Altered “Kleptomaniac”
Altered “Trap Awareness”
Altered “Bountiful Theft”
Added new “Sabotage” to Master tier
Removed “Trickster”
Added new “Universal Power” in Master tier
Replaced “Lead Attacks” with “Actively Passive” from Critical Strikes
Altered “Quick Pockets”
Moved “Improvisation” to Grandmaster tier
Hallo, all! I’ve just been thinking up a way to shake up the Thief’s traitlines a bit, so here’s what I’ve come up with. I moved several traits around, combined others, and even created some new ones. The goal is to make each traitline more well-defined.
Notice that this does not include Daredevil. These changes are for the base Thief. Daredevil changes can be based on these, however, though I’m not the one to do that.
First, here are some traits that I made baseline…
Preparedness: Every Thief needs the extra 3 initiative. In doing so, Trickery becomes less needed.
Side Strike / Flawless Strike: Every Thief should be working to flank its targets, and should be rewarded for doing so. “Side Strike’s” critical hit chance is unchanged. However, “Flawless Strike’s” damage increase is now based on flanking instead of health, granting a 5% increase to all direct damage instead of a %7 increase to critical damage.
Sleight of Hand: Every Thief can use the 20% reduction to Steal’s cooldown. The 1 second daze is also very useful no matter the build. Because this is no longer a choise, the daze will necessarily ignore “reflected CC” effects from other professions. This does not mean that other CC effects used in conjunction with Steal are immune, however.
Now, on to the traitlines. One thing I have done is removed the utility-cooldown-reductions from traits themselves. Instead, those reductions are now tied to the specific traitlines as follows…
Deadly Arts: Venoms by 20% Critical Strikes: Signets by 20% Shadow Arts: Deceptions by 20% Acrobatics: Heals by 10% (in addition to other reductions) Trickery: Tricks and Traps by 20%
In addition to that, each traitline now has a specific trait that affects the entire utility bar. If such a trait is chosen, activating any utility will give an extra benefit, helping a Thief gain abilities it may be lacking regardless of which utilities are chosen. Note that each utility will only give the benefit once per initial activation, so multiple-stage utilities such as “Shadowstep” will only grant the benefit on the first stage.
The purpose of this line shall be for conditions (mainly poison) and other methods of damage other than direct damage such as venoms. Even though it is most effective for Condition-Thieves, its focus on poison’s heal reduction and weakness application can be beneficial to Power-Thieves as well.
Adept Minor: Serpent’s Touch: No Change
Adept Majors: Deadly Weapons: Formerly “Dagger Training”
This removes the requirement of using a dagger to apply poison. All weapons now have a chance to apply poison on hits.
Uncatchable: Moved from Trickery, Combined with “Trapper’s Respite”
In addition to Caltops on dodge roll, heal skills lay a Needle Trap. Removed cooldown on trap.
Changed traitlines. It’s a condition-based skill and similar to traps, so it fits in Deadly Arts. The trap also immobilizes a target, helping the Thief to get away.
Leeching Venoms: Moved from Shadow Arts
Removed might applications due to the new “Universal Power” trait in Trickery.
Changed traitlines. It’s venom-based, so it fits in Deadly Arts.
Master Minor: Lotus Poison:
The cooldown has been lowered to 4 seconds to match the duration of weakness applied. The goal is to give the Thief the chance to keep the target weakened continuously, increasing the sustainability of the Thief in close combat.
Master Majors: Venomous Aura: Moved from Shadow Arts
The Venom skill recharge has been removed since it is now included with Deadly Arts. Changed traitlines. It’s venom-based, so it fits in Deadly Arts.
Poisoned Goods (NEW):
Whenever you activate a utility, your next attack will apply 3 seconds of poison.
This is Deadly Arts’ utility trait. It allows any Thief to apply poison without regards to weapon skills or utility choice.
Pressure Striking: Moved from Trickery
No change other than the traitline. It’s condition-based, so it fits in Deadly Arts.
Grandmaster Minor: Resistant Strain (NEW): Replaces “Exposed Weakness”
Every time the Thief applies a condition to the target, three pulses of 1-second vulnerability is also applied, one after the other. This has a cooldown of 3 seconds.
Because Exposed Weakness mixed conditions with direct damage, it has been replaced with a trait that focuses purely on conditions. This trait’s goal is to make conditions more difficult to cleanse by blocking the actual damaging conditions with a weak non-damaging condition.
Grandmaster Majors: Iocane Resistance (NEW):
After a few years of building up immunity, poison no longer reduces your healing rate.
This trait allows the Thief to stay in the fight longer. While it does not prevent damage or death, the Thief can fully heal while under the effects of poison.
Bewildering Ambush: Moved from Trickery
No change other than the traitline. It’s condition-based, so it fits in Deadly Arts.
This traitline is focused on direct damage and attacks. It no longer focuses solely on critical hits. Several traits have been combined in one form or another.
Adept Minor: Keen Strikes: Combined “Keen Observer” and “Unrelenting Strikes”
Fury duration is incresed to 5 seconds.
Adept Majors: Finishing Touches (NEW):
Do 50% more direct damage to downed targets.
This trait is simply to help Thieves finish off opponents that have been downed. Not every Thief has Impact Strike or Shadowstep available after a fight. This will help avoid getting into downed duels with Rangers and Necros, or simply help in team fights.
Ankle Strikes: Formerly “Ankle Shots”
Again, removed the weapon requirements. This trait now does 10% more direct damage to targets that are stunned or have movement impairing conditions. Also, any hit while under the effects of Fury has a chance to cripple the target. Chance to cripple has been lowered to 50%, and cooldown has increased to 10 seconds.
This trait can make up for the loss of “Exposed Weakness.” It can also be combined with “Panic Strike” to great effect.
Sundering Strikes:
This trait now does 10% more direct damage to targets that have vulnerability. Also, any hit while under the effects of Fury has a 50% chance to apply vulnerability for 6 seconds.
This trait can also make up for the loss of “Exposed Weakness,” benefitting from its replacement “Resistant Strain.”
Master Minor: Lead Attacks: Moved from Trickery
This trait no longer reduces the recharge rate of Steal. It now solely increases damage, so it fits in Critical Strikes.
Master Majors: Cleanup Hitter (NEW):
When following a critical hit, the next non-critical attack does twice normal damage.
This trait allows Thieves with low Precision to take advantage of the occasional critical hit. It also benefits Thieves with high Precision by allowing non-critical-capable skills like Mug to do damage relative to critical damage.
Critically Rolling (NEW):
Every consecutive critical hit increases your next attack’s direct damage by 1%. Resets to 0% when a direct attack does not do critical damage. Maximum of 15%.
Critical in a Clutch (NEW):
Whenever you activate a utility, your next attack with be a critical hit.
This is Critical Strikes’ utility trait. It allows any Thief the ability to guarantee critical hits when needed most.
Grandmaster Minor: Ferocious Executioner: Combined “Ferocious Strikes” and “Executioner”
Moved “Executioner” here from Deadly Arts. “Ferocious Strikes” affects a target until it hits 50% health, then “Executioner” will take over. To offset the loss of “Practiced Tolerance,” the critical damage portion of this trait has been increased to 20%.
Grandmaster Majors: Glancing Precision (NEW):
All attacks that would normally result in no damage will result in a Glancing Blow instead.
This trait allows a Thief to do some damage to targets that are otherwise protected from direct attacks such as targets that are blocking or have immunity from direct damage (not including evasions).
Invigorating Precision: No change
No Quarter: No change
EDIT:
Clarified “Ankle Strikes” and “Sundering Strikes”
This traitline is now focused purely around Stealth. Again, some traits have been combined, and some have been modified to make them not useless. Also, there are a few additions that add some fun Thief-vs-Thief scenarios.
Adept Minor: Shadow’s Embrace: No change
This was moved to be a minor to improve build diversity. Now, there are actually real choices in the Adept Major slots.
Adept Majors: Concealed Defeat: Combined with “Last Refuge”
This trait now does what its name implies. The Thief will now use Blinding Powder on becoming downed instead of creating a Smoke Screen. This will give the Thief a few seconds of Stealth in order to reposition before the opponent even knows it has been downed. The Deception skill recharge has been removed since it is now included with Shadow Arts.
Ninja Nursing: Combined “Merciful Ambush” and “Cloaked in Shadow”
Yes, it needed to be done. You don’t have to choose between Blind on Stealth and Shadow’s Rejuvenation. You revive allies faster as well as grant them Stealth… which will also blind nearby enemies. The Stealth on fall damage and reduced falling damage remains.
Shadow Protector:
In addition to Regeneration applied per Stealth application, 3 seconds of Resistance is granted only when initially entering Stealth.
Master Minor: Meld with Shadows:
In addition to the 1-second extension to Stealth, striking a Stealthed target removes Revealed from you and also applies 3 seconds of Stealth (1 second cooldown). Can be combined with “Hidden Thief” and “Shadowsight” for invisible Thief battles. Yes… invisible Thief battles.
Not only will this trait remove Revealed from you, but striking a Stealthed target will not Reveal you. This does allow dueling Thieves to remain Stealthed for an indefinite period, however, striking a non-Stealthed target will still Reveal you.
Master Majors: Hidden Thief:
In addition to granting Stealth on Steal, if the target is Stealthed, then you will gain an aditional 3 seconds of Stealth. Can be combined with “Shadowsight” to target Stealthed enemies.
Hidden Killer: Moved from Critical Strikes
No change other than the traitline. It’s Stealth-based, so it fits in Shadow Arts.
Revealed Training: Moved from Deadly Arts
In addition to its power increase, this trait grants immunity from being Revealed by opponents. However, you are not immune to Stealth Disruptor traps or leaving Shadow Refuge.
Grandmaster Minor: Resilience of Shadows: No change
Grandmaster Majors: Shadowsight (NEW):
You can now see and target Stealthed opponents. When you are not in Stealth, you will see the opponent’s “ghostly” form. When you are in Stealth, you will see the opponent as completely visible.
Keep in mind that this trait is competing with Shadow’s Rejuvenation, so it must provide significant value. You will also be able to take full advantage of “Meld with Shadow’s” new Stealth-granting ability.
Shadow’s Rejuvenation: No change
Master of Shadows (NEW):
Whenever you activate a utility, you gain 2 seconds of Stealth.
This is Shadow Arts’ utility trait. It allows any Thief to gain Stealth without regards to weapon skills or utility choice. The granted Stealth is in addition to any other Stealth gained from the use of the utility. The Stealth is granted after the utility’s activation, which will vary with the utility. For example, “Scorpion Wire” will grant Stealth after the damaging portion of the skill take place. Also, because Shadow’s Embrace is now a Minor trait, this will effectively mean that every utility will allow you to cleanse one condition. This trait is not affected by “Meld with Shadows.”
This traitline is all about active defense and sustain without Stealth. Speed and evasion are focuses. Passive defenses are lessened. More traits are combined. The goal is to make the Thief harder to pin down.
Adept Minor: Expeditious Dodger: No change
Adept Majors: Instant Reflexes:
This still gives passive evasions, but in a different manner. There is no health threshold. Whenever a single strike reduces your health by 25% or greater of maximum, you will auto-evade the next strike. Basically, it will act like a blind, only you will get an evasion credit for it, assisting other traits that are based on evades. This will have a cooldown of 5 seconds.
Pain Response:
This trait will reduce its effectiveness along with its cooldown. The cooldown will now be 3 seconds. It will remove one condition (now including Confusion) and will apply 2 seconds of Regeneration.
Basically, it will not go wasted as condition removal any longer.
Vigorous Recovery:
In addition to the Vigor, this trait will now grant 50% Endurance on heal.
Master Minor: Feline Grace: Combined with “Endless Stamina”
No change to either original trait… unless we are allowed to have the old Feline Grace back.
Master Majors: Guarded Initiation:
In addition to its original benefits, this trait will now protect the Thief from harming itself while its health is above 75%. That means no more stunning yourself, fearing yourself, or burning yourself based on your opponent’s traits.
Soap on a Rope (NEW):
Whenever you activate a utility, you break a stun.
This is Acrobatics’ utility trait. It effectively replaces “Hard to Catch,” though that trait still exists. The purpose of this trait is to make the Thief very difficult to pin down, while doing so without passives.
Swindler’s Equilibrium:
Removes the weapon requirement. Because this is Acrobatics, it also removes the damage increase. However, in addition to reducing Steal’s cooldown, you also gain 10% endurance for every evasion. There is no longer a cooldown for this trait. If you evade several attacks at once, you are rewarded for it.
Grandmaster Minor: Hard to Catch:
Increases movement speed by 25%. Also refills 100% endurance when you break a stun (on a 15 second cooldown).
The movement increase is to help the Thief avoid attacks without evading, flank the enemy, and get somewhere quickly without the Shortbow. Swiftness is still helpfull, however.
Grandmaster Majors: Assassin’s Reward: No change
Don’t Stop: No change
Upper Hand:
No changes other than removing the cooldown. Again, if you evade, you get rewarded.
This focuses mainly on Steal and other “tricks” and “controls” that don’t really fit in any other line.
Adept Minor: Kleptomaniac:
In addition to gaining initiative, Steal also clears a condition. This trait now reduces the recharge rate of Steal by 15%.
This replaces the rate reduction of “Lead Attacks.”
Adept Majors: Flanking Strikes: No change
Thrill of the Crime: No change
Trap Awareness (NEW):
You can now see where enemy traps are placed. You also auto-evade any trap that is placed on top of you (cooldown of 10 seconds). Your traps add 5 stacks of vulnerability for 10 seconds to targets who trigger them.
This will grant the Thief roguish senses when it comes to traps. Not only can the Thief see them, but this trait will also allow a Thief to effectively “negate” traps as they are being laid if it close enough to so. And being proficient with traps, the Thief can make the targets vulnerable with its own traps, making up for the loss of “Deadly Trapper.”
Master Minor: Panic Strike: Moved from Deadly Arts
No change other than the traitline. It is more of a control effect than anything, so it fits in Trickery.
Master Majors: Bountiful Theft:
This trait now steals full stacks of 3 different boons from the target.
Sabotage (NEW):
Stealing now sabotages the enemy’s ability to fight. Places one equipped skill on a 5-second cooldown at random. If the skill is already on cooldown, adds 5 more seconds to the cooldown.
This trait somewhat mirrors “Improvisation.” Any skill that the target currently has equipped (both weapon and utilities) can be placed on cooldown.
Universal Power (NEW):
Whenever you activate a utilitiy, you gain 5 stacks of might for 10 seconds.
This is Trickery’s utility trait. It replaces all of the might-granting abilities of other traits such as “Signets of Power,” “Deadly Trapper,” and “Leeching Venoms.”
Grandmaster Minor: Actively Passive (NEW):
Signets’ passives are always in effect.
Grandmaster Majors: Mug: Moved from Deadly Arts
No change other than the traitline. It’s Steal-based, so it fits in Trickery.
Quick Pockets:
Initiative gained on weapon swap is now 6. This allows at least one use of any skill. Swapping weapons also clears a condition.
Improvisation: Moved from Deadly Arts
No change other than the traitline. It’s only Steal-based, so it fits in Trickery.
EDIT:
Clarified “Trap Awareness” and “Universal Power”
And there you have it. The names and numbers could use some work. But one of the main goals is to make each traitline serve its own purpose. Another goal is to expand build diversity by presenting true choices. One way of doing that is to combine weak or useless traits together or moving them to other positions. That is what lead to vacant trait slots, which resulted in my new traits… whether they are too powerful or just crazy. Alternatives are welcome.
This is really a lot of text for basically just saying “I main thief and want to be invincible with it”.
Seriously, there are so many overpowered suggestions in there, I just don’t know where to start. If these suggestions would become real, wvw would look empty. But not because there are no players, but because everyone HAVE to play thief and we would have zerg fights fully in stealth. xD
I understand that you think some ideas “fit the theme” of the thief. But seriously, you want immunity to traps, you want perma dodges in group fights (with all the aoe you can easily manage to dodge 5 attacks every time, with no cd -> free dodge) on a profession that has a elite spec trait which deals damage while dodging. You want to negate the benefits of stealth for any class beside thieves.
I see you put a lot of effort in this. But sorry, you have no idea about balancing.
I see you put a lot of effort in this. But sorry, you have no idea about balancing.
Im actually not sure about that. A lot of the suggestions are pretty good and really have the potential to be interesting and to increase build diversity.
Unfortunately a lot of them are just slightly too strong and additionally some are hidden in there that are just broken. but the completely op ones are just a minority.
I see a much more severe problem. Sorry, you have no idea about inventing cool names.
you want immunity to traps, you want perma dodges in group fights (with all the aoe you can easily manage to dodge 5 attacks every time, with no cd -> free dodge) on a profession that has a elite spec trait which deals damage while dodging. You want to negate the benefits of stealth for any class beside thieves.
Not exactly trap immunity. If you do trait for it, you are giving up offense for the ability to see where traps are laid (same as Necro marks) and the ability to avoid being insta-downed in melee if you’re out of dodges… and only once per 10 seconds.
Yes, it’s based on 5v5 PvP more than anything, so WvW balance suggestions would be appreciated. And yes, it will help the Thief survive in group fights if going defensive. And as I stated at the beginning, these changes do not take Daredevil into consideration, as this is for the base Thief. Daredevil would have to be adjusted based upon these changes, and I have no experience with it, so that is for someone else. Other than that, the base Thief has only two dodges, does no damage while dodging, and needs a way to gain more if traiting for Acrobatics. So if a Thief evades at an opportune moment, the Thief will be rewarded.
As for the last, part, I don’t see how any other profession’s Stealth benefits would be negated. Only if a Thief gives up “Shadow’s Rejuvenation” for “Shadowsight” will it be able to see the Stealthed opponents. But it would also be able to see other Thieves also. Just consider it the Thief’s personal counter to Stealth. Besides, if other professions can completely lock a Thief out of Stealth (something it relies on for defense and offense), why should a Thief not be able to have its own method of dealing with the Stealth of others? Besides, what benefits of Stealth do others gain other than being invisible… especially that other professions cannot already negate with Revealed already?
Ps. Think of a “Shadowsight” Thief on patrol in WvW. It could be fun, haha! It reminds me of the Attack Dog in the Command & Conquer/Red Alert games being able to sniff out nearby spies.
A lot of the suggestions are pretty good and really have the potential to be interesting and to increase build diversity.
Unfortunately a lot of them are just slightly too strong and additionally some are hidden in there that are just broken. but the completely op ones are just a minority.
Thanks! What is broken needs to be fixed, so naming specific traits/combinations and suggestions would be helpful :-)
As for the last, part, I don’t see how any other profession’s Stealth benefits would be negated. Only if a Thief gives up “Shadow’s Rejuvenation” for “Shadowsight” will it be able to see the Stealthed opponents. But it would also be able to see other Thieves also. Just consider it the Thief’s personal counter to Stealth. Besides, if other professions can completely lock a Thief out of Stealth (something it relies on for defense and offense), why should a Thief not be able to have its own method of dealing with the Stealth of others? Besides, what benefits of Stealth do others gain other than being invisible… especially that other professions cannot already negate with Revealed already?
With your suggested system, I would be able to do the following:
Taking the trait to see enemies in stealth
Taking the trait that gives immunity to forced revealed
Taking the trait that prevents getting revealed for hitting enemies in stealth
Still saying it doesn’t negate the benefits of stealth for other classes completely? I can see them, even attack them while still staying completely in stealth. As long as my enemy is in stealth, he doesn’t have any chance. I see him, he doesn’t see me. If I hit him, I stay stealthed. If he hits me, he gets revealed for everyone (I myself don’t need it because I still see him in stealth)
This combination is too strong. Giving stealth to any class except thief would be worthless, since thieves would completely negate it. It’s not like the one time dodgable reveal from revenant and scrappers, I can see my enemy in stealth the whole time without the need of hitting him with any skill. And that you argue with “other classes have a way to deal with stealth, why shouldn’t thief” is the biggest joke, since you are inventing a trait which negates these stealth counters from other classes too! xD (immunity to forced reveal)
With your suggested system, I would be able to do the following:
Taking the trait to see enemies in stealth
Taking the trait that gives immunity to forced revealed
Taking the trait that prevents getting revealed for hitting enemies in stealth
Still saying it doesn’t negate the benefits of stealth for other classes completely?
Things can be changed and tweaked. That’s why the thread is here. But no, it still does not completely negate the benefits of Stealth. Your target is still invisible to everyone except for you. Mesmers and Thieves will still gain boons/defenses/attacks/etc. while in Stealth even though you can see them. That is much more beneficial to them than what being Revealed does to a Thief… which completely negates a full traitline as well as important offensive skills like Backstab.
What your scenario does show, however, is that the Thief will be able to turn the tables and take the upper hand in a Stealth fight… and why shouldn’t it be able to do so?
Firstly, how long can another profession stay in Stealth?
Secondly, once the opponent either hits you (not too difficult with AoE) or runs out of Stealth (shouldn’t take long), when you strike him again, you will be self-Revealed. Once that happens, it’s back to game as usual.
Thirdly, unless you’re traveling around in Stealth already, the opponent will be able to see you coming, having an opportunity to go defensive.
Yeah, outside of Thieves, Mesmers and Engineers would get the worst of it. The other professions probably wouldn’t be affected enough to care either way.
At best, it’s a temporary advantage for the Thief. But yes, I need to add a cooldown to “Meld with Shadows.” It was an oversight on my part. Thanks for bringing it to my attention :-)
But comparing it to Revealed… yes, the Thief can evade Revealing skills (some easier than others), but a non-Thief can evade your initial attack if it sees you before you Stealth. If it can’t/doesn’t see you, then you got the drop on them which is very important for a Thief. But it goes back to other complaints about Thieves that have been around for the longest time. How do you evade a Thief’s Steal when it’s instant? How do you avoid a Thief’s Backstab when you can’t see it coming? There will be ways to counter the Thief’s anti-Stealth capabilities. But it will be riskier to Stealth… the same way that Shadow Refuge is risky with so many pulls/pushes in the game… and especially after all of the Revealing skills came into play. Still beneficial, but it’s a risk.
However, Revealed still trumps this as far as devastation goes. Shadow Arts and Stealth attacks are completely destroyed by it. And that devastation is completely unique to the Thief. No hiding. No damage reduction. No condition cleansing. No movement speed increase. No healing or increased initiative gain.
So would this combination of traits throw the game out of balance? I can’t see how it could at all. If anything, it would give the Thief another important role to fill… Stealth-overwatch. Most Thief-haters would probably even encourage Thieves to choose trait this way because we would be forced to do without “Shadow’s Rejuvenation,” so we won’t be able to hide and heal up so easily and quickly… and that it is mainly an anti-Thief strategy.
Internal Cooldowns were created for a reason, because something like breaking stun on any utility skill use followed by 100% endurance regeneration on breaking stun would make probably the worst thief cancer known to man, perma [Bounding Dodger].
At any rate some merges looked nice but making traits work on anything is another issue, some traits are specific to weapons and/or play styles as to not let others go over the top with them and also because they fit certain weapons and/or play styles best.
So allowing 10% damage to foes with vulnerability basically replaces exposed weaknesses but you still get it as a minor and then you get another minor adding 20% critical then flat damage. Critical strikes would be insanely broken with that many damage increases.
“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
The isolation of build concepts into specific lines to a point where one has little reason to run anything but a very strict set of traits for a very specific optimized build path while also redacting existing builds and nerfing currently weak ones makes me innately disagree with the design philosophy of the OP’s post.
Further, I am going to have to agree with Kodama; these changes, especially the ones made to stealth and SA, are just unfun and completely overdone in terms of the sheer amount of power readily available.
I know there are those who disagree with me and want permanently-stealthed, insta-gibbing edgy-cool shadowmaster assassin that can take a beating play styles, but these are simply not good design ideologies to follow in a balanced game with what is a desirably balanced and skill-oriented PvP system. I see the above violating these principles fairly blatantly.
Rather than compartmentalizing entire builds into single trait lines, more universal effects need some overal between then. Analysis of uneven power distribution needs to be made to determine the cause of why it exists and alter traits and weapons accordingly.
I believe the thief is numerically the best-designed and balanced profession. The scaling-oriented play rewards build investment and enables a better balance state as a whole.
Internal Cooldowns were created for a reason, because something like breaking stun on any utility skill use followed by 100% endurance regeneration on breaking stun would make probably the worst thief cancer known to man, perma [Bounding Dodger].
Yes, that’s why there is a cooldown on the endurance refill, though the length of the cooldown is another matter. I wanted to keep the benefit of “Hard to Catch,” but remove the passivity. A higher cooldown or even removing the endurance refill, but keeping the movement speed increase could happen. I also wanted to make Acrobatics more competitive with other traitlines, so that’s why there’s a lot more endurance regeneration. Again, it’s for the base Thief, not taking Daredevil into consideration, and assumes that elites will be changed based on these changes. Basically, this is the foundation.
some traits are specific to weapons and/or play styles as to not let others go over the top with them and also because they fit certain weapons and/or play styles best.
Perhaps so. Whether removing the weapon requirements are right or wrong, I can’t say. I did so for some reasons, however…
“Dagger Training” allows poison on only daggers. That already makes Dagger/Pistol even stronger compared to others, and Dagger/Dagger the go-to condition set. One justification for removing the weapon requirement is because it will be less effective on other weapon sets because of their attack speeds compared to the Dagger’s. It will, however, allow other weapon sets to be more effective as condition builds. Perhaps the main reason I removed the weapon requirement is because I wanted “Deadly Arts” to have a main focus, and that is to poison and weaken the enemy. In order to do so, every weapon set needed to have decent access to poison, though it’s still optional, and can now reduce healing and maintain weakness on the enemy.
“Ankle Strikes” had its weapon requirement removed to make it more useful. Again, Dagger/Pistol already had access to this trait, so not much of a buff there. X/Dagger and Shortbow already have the ability to cripple opponents, so this will not add much to the mix. What it will do is allow more competition with “Sundering Strikes” because of the damage increase for all weapon sets.
“Swindler’s Equilibrium” changed in its use. Instead of a damage increase, it now grants endurance. Acrobatics may be a playstyle more useful for the Sword, but every Thief has access to it. Now, it just allows them to be more evasive regardless of weapon set.
So allowing 10% damage to foes with vulnerability basically replaces exposed weaknesses but you still get it as a minor and then you get another minor adding 20% critical then flat damage. Critical strikes would be insanely broken with that many damage increases.
Yes, “Ankle Strikes” and “Sundering Strikes” are replacements for the 10% damage loss from removing “Exposed Weakness.” They each have their own benefits and uses, but achieve the same damage increase. I wanted to move all damage increases into “Critical Strikes” to make it the direct damage line. “Resistant Strain” (replacement of “Exposed Weakness”) still retains its condition-based purpose by making it more difficult to cleanse other conditions… even if it doesn’t directly increase damage.
As for the damage increases, they were mostly just moved into “Critical Strikes” from other traitlines. I believe the only ones that are original are “Finishing Touches” (against downed opponents, and competing with “Ankle Strikes” and “Sundering Strikes”) and “Critically Rolling.” The critical damage to “Ferocious Executioner” is to make up for the loss of “Practiced Tolerance,” though it can easily be decreased just as it was increased.
Before
Normal Damage 10% Exposed Weakness (DA) 20% Executioner (DA) 10% Ankle Shots (CS)
7% Swindler’s Equilibrium (A) * 15% Lead Attacks (T)
After
Normal Damage 5% Flawless Strike (Baseline)
50% Finishing Touches (CS) * 10% Ankle Strikes or Sundering Strikes (CS) 15% Lead Attacks (CS) 15% Critically Rolling (CS) 20% Ferocious Executioner (CS)
Total (*against non-downed opponents) 65%
Critical Damage
20% Ferocious Strikes (CS)
Total 20%
Unless I’m missing something (it’s 5am, so it could happen), there is a possible 10% increase to normal damage (only with a full charge of “Critically Rolling”). Because “Ankle Strikes” now competes with “Sundering Strikes,” you cannot double up with them. However, because “Ankle Strikes” no longer has a weapon requirement, it can compete with its control effect.
The critical damage change is based on how much ferocity you would have gained from “Practiced Tolerance.”
Yes, the normal damage increase also helps with the critical damage. And that’s one of the main changes in the traitline… to make it less dependent on precision. It still helps, but is no longer required. And without precision, “Critically Rolling” won’t help much, bringing your normal damage increase possibility down to 50% (which is 5% lower than the old system).
I suppose the concern comes from placing them all into one traitline. 15 from “Trickery” and 10 + 20% (under health threshold) from “Deadly Arts.” In the current system, “Critical Strikes” is rather lackluster without precision. I suppose it depends on your perspective, though. Currently, “Deadly Arts” and “Trickery” are rather vital, while “Critical Strikes” is not. Even without Daredevil, “Shadow Arts” is more valuable for its defenses. This simply changes things around in a manner…
With the new changes, “Critical Strikes” would be the choice if you are going for direct damage (with or without precision and ferocity). If you want to get the most out of it, you still need to invest in power, precision, and ferocity. However, you don’t have to… you still get the increased damage no matter your stats. “Deadly Arts” loses its damage modifiers, but now allows the Thief to survive longer due to the increased weakness upkeep, and makes it easier keep the opponent from healing back to full health… in addition to its increased condition potential. “Trickery” gains control and utility as well as the ability to enhance both Condition-based and Power-based Thieves with its might-granting trait.
In other words, the changes make traitlines to be chosen based on playstyle instead of actual traits, stats, or weapon sets. Other than the cripple in “Ankle Strikes,” “Critical Strikes’” sole purpose is direct damage. It does nothing else whatsoever. Is it worth giving up defenses or controls for? For some builds, yes. For others, no.
The isolation of build concepts into specific lines to a point where one has little reason to run anything but a very strict set of traits for a very specific optimized build path while also redacting existing builds and nerfing currently weak ones makes me innately disagree with the design philosophy of the OP’s post.
I guess that’s what these changes really are… a take on a different philosophy. I’m not saying it’s the correct or best thing to do, but it’s just a concept, so no harm done… I hope.
The inspiration of it really came from the idea of Deadly Arts being able to keep an opponent poisoned and weakened indefinitely, so I started building on top of that. Then I went on to attempt to give each traitline its own purpose. In order to do that, I needed to move traits around to fit that purpose. But I attempted to use the already existing traits since they are already in the game. That led to combining which led to openings for new traits, and that is why I created some new ones.
I know there are those who disagree with me and want permanently-stealthed, insta-gibbing edgy-cool shadowmaster assassin that can take a beating play styles
Personally, I would like to have the choice to build for (near)perma-Stealth, or a hard-hitting assassin, or an effective “brawler.” Not all at once, of course. Basically, having a choice between “Rock, Paper, and Scissors.”
Again, the trait changes are just a different take on philosophy. Not necessarily the right philosophy. I suppose I could liken it to the change when Anet forced us to trait fully into 3 lines instead of partially into 5.
I did make some changes based on your feedback, though. I was going to reply in the other thread, but couldn’t edit it, so I didn’t want to bump it.
As for “Shadow Arts” and perma-Stealth, I think the closest thing I added that could aid that is “Master of Shadows.” That is a possible 10 seconds of Stealth, though only if you blow all of your utilities. It’s mainly for condition-clearing, though can be useful for combat Stealth to get a Backstab or blind if an interrupt isn’t available. You are having to give up "Shadow’s Rejuvenation, though. The other perma-Stealth aid is “Meld with Shadows,” and it would require you to hit a target already in Stealth… which isn’t going to be available often.
But anything is able to be changed. This is only a concept. All for fun! :-)
I very rarely admit good reads ,when I see them, but this is one of these cases, where I just have to say
Good Job OP.
This concept is a very good read and I like it – alot, it also includes some ideas that I have suggested several times in the past that should get changed for the thief, especially lately the thief’s unique ability that they should be able to see where enemies lay their traps and you included it into this concept because you know, no we all know that thieves should be able to do that, otherwise we would be no real thieves if we would be catchable by every lousy trap without using our expertise of avoiding them like real master thieves would be able to do so.
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
I like the : “because we all need it, then it’s now baseline”.
Because warrior need fast hand then let’s make it baseline.
Because rangers need fortifying bond then let’s make it baseline.
Because elementalist need short cool down on attunment let’s make Elemental enchantment baseline.
Because necromancer need vital persistence, strenght of undead, soul mark, let’s make them baseline
Because guardian need more vitality, let’s make force of will baseline.
Because revenant need herald whole line let’s make it baseline.
I hope that you understand that asking for that is mere stupidity because traits are choice that you make. Arbitrarily removing the need to take a trait would inevitably shatter the balance of a profession. The main issue when people ask for trait to be become baseline is not the traits in themself but the fact that the player would like to try new build but are reluctant to lose their favourite QoL. You need to make choices getting rid of the choices won’t make the game healthier.
Edit : Oh! I forgot! 25% movement on all profession is mandatory, let’s make those trait/signet or whatever else baseline!
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
I apologize for the delayed reply. It seems my account got permanently terminated due to gold selling… which was rather ironic because my Thief has always been poor :-P
I like the : “because we all need it, then it’s now baseline”.
…..
Arbitrarily removing the need to take a trait would inevitably shatter the balance of a profession.
…..
You need to make choices getting rid of the choices won’t make the game healthier.
Ah, I believe there are two issues to address…
1. Making traits baseline. Other professions may or may not have traits that are needed to be made baseline for viability. However, I don’t have enough experience with them to say. So I will stick with the Thief.
The only trait I actually said was needed was “Preparedness.” A 25% increase in initiative (or 20% decrease depending how you look at it) is a significant swing in every single Thief build. While recent buffs to auto-attack damage and “Lead Attacks” made it less so, it is still so significant that it can be argued that Trickery becomes necessary in almost any build. And I will further go into that in my second point.
As for “Side Strike” and “Flawless Strike,” they are relatively minor enhancements. In order to revamp Critical Strikes, I needed to make room for actual useful traits, seeing that the current traitline is significantly lacking (again, my second point will touch on this). So instead of removing the current traits, I made them baseline in a manner that suits the theme of the Thief… flanking the enemy.
And with “Sleight of Hand,” the original change was simply to baseline the recharge rate of Steal. However, leaving a simple daze for a trait didn’t seem fitting for a Grandmaster slot. So the decision was to baseline the entire trait.
2. I think we just have different perspectives on the changes. They were not made to remove choices. They were made to increase the viability of choices. And in doing so, to create a better balance in those choices.
For instance, recently, Deadly Arts and Trickery have nearly been required for most builds. The third line depended on weapon choice. For D/P, it was Shadow Arts. For S/D, it was Acrobatics (pre-nerf). Then came Daredevil which reserved that third spot.
Critical Strikes is rather lackluster. It is only useful for precision-based Thieves, and it’s only purpose it to increase critical damage. But Deadly Arts and Trickery already increase all damage, and Critical Strikes has nothing else to offer. So really, why take Critical Strikes when you can get more damage increases elsewhere? And why choose it for your remaining line when you need some sort of sustainability?
Acrobatics was gutted to make room for Daredevil. Yet it seems to be used mainly to enhance Daredevil. Can it stand on its own anymore?
So that was the purpose of these changes. To give each traitline its own unique purpose, but also to make each traitline more viable on its own. Deadly Arts and Trickery lost their damage increases, but gained specialized functionality. Critical Strikes has its damage increases improved dramatically (being its sole purpose) by replacing weak traits with stronger traits. Shadow Arts gained actual choices. Acrobatics got increased evasions and escapes.
Deadly Arts is for conditions and reducing the opponent’s sustainability and effectiveness.
Critical Strikes is purely for direct damage increase (not simply critical damage anymore, and it is the sole source of directly increasing damage)
Shadow Arts is for Stealth-based playstyles.
Acrobatics is for evasive playstyles.
Trickery is for utility and general enhancements.
While some traitlines do synergize with others in a broad sense, they are more focused on operating independently of others. And in doing so, traitline choice becomes about playstyle instead of weapon set or other traitlines. And because of the removal/relocation of some traits, the viability of lines becomes much more balanced. There is no longer a “required” traitline… at least, not nearly as much.
Sure, Shadow Arts will benefit D/P more than S/P, simply because of the weapon set. However, some traits like “Hidden Thief” and “Master of Shadows” can lessen the discrepancy between the two.
Ps. Believe it or not, these changes don’t actually change the Thief THAT much. Most things just got moved around to be more efficient/effective (in my opinion) or slightly improved. As for baselining, initiative is normalized, there’s a slight buff to flanking, and every Thief gets to daze on a quicker Steal. I don’t see that specifically as game-changing (nearly every Thief does two of the three already). What is game-changing is that Thieves now have more freedom to choose traitlines while remaining viable. And that’s what it all boils down to… choice WITH viability.
Personally, I’d like the Thief to have a baseline movement speed increase. But like I said, I wanted to stay minimal with these changes. It’s a trait shakeup, not a rewrite. That’s for another thread :-)
After today’s “Balance Patch of Bewilderment,” I’m just going to bump this for consideration once more.
It’s not perfect, but at least it makes more sense than what came out today!
/facepalm
Suggestions to improve these changes are still welcome. To make a strong, yet balanced Thief is the entire purpose of this thread. Anet devs are especially welcome to enter discussions. We… well, I’ll be nice! :-D
because you know, no we all know that thieves should be able to do that, otherwise we would be no real thieves if we would be catchable by every lousy trap without using our expertise of avoiding them like real master thieves would be able to do so.