Guild Wars 2

Greetings!

I understand the danger of allowing a stealthed player to contest a point (think perma-stealthed thief troll), but not allowing a stealthed player to contest a point at all is a major unfairness. Why can’t Anet implement something like a stealthed player can contest a point at 50% efficiency (the point decaps/caps at half the usual rate). Or, do something like let the stealthed player 100% contest for 3 seconds of stealth with an ICD of 10 seconds.

The main reason I ask is because thieves are really hurting on build diversity in spvp. S/D is about the only build that can properly contest a point and it might not (probably won’t) be viable post Dec 10th patch. By allowing stealthed players to partially contest points, thieves can actually use points in shadow arts while remaining viable. We’d see s/d thieves using tactical strike, dagger/dagger might come back, d/p might run 10/30/30/0/0 and not feel embarrassed for doing so.

I think it’s about time for this change, what do the rest of you think? Keep in mind the nerfs to thief sword and perma stealth in the Dec 10th patch when replying.

EDIT: Some people talk about this being overpowered. Be honest, how many of you really have trouble turning over a point that a thief is guarding? At best a thief can let the point go neutral and re-cap it after (if) he defeats you. Other classes can keep the point capped the whole time until one side wins.

What about the Initiative buff coming in Dec 10? Isn’t the entire point of that to increase build diversity?

Wintel.4873:

What about the Initiative buff coming in Dec 10? Isn’t the entire point of that to increase build diversity?

You can read the threads in the thief forum if you want to learn more about it. In short however, it is not a buff, just a re-shuffling of how initiative is gained. The other nerfs to initiative gain fully offset the +33% passive increase in most cases.

eh… people are already crying rivers about stealth in pvp… if they actually could contest while in stealth the QQ would be endless

besides i can see it being abused by few hieves chaining refuge

no, there is permastealth thieves there and such a thing would be very overpowered. i think it is fine as it is and should not be changed.

Cynz.9437:

eh… people are already crying rivers about stealth in pvp… if they actually could contest while in stealth the QQ would be endless

besides i can see it being abused by few hieves chaining refuge

Sorry to ask, but did you read the thread friend? How could it be abused if implemented the way I suggested? A perma-stealthed thief at worst could only slowdown the point transition. Furthermore, no one is crying about stealth besides stealth bombs at the start of a match. This change wouldn’t really impact that aspect of gameplay.

selan.8354:

no, there is permastealth thieves there and such a thing would be very overpowered. i think it is fine as it is and should not be changed.

I challenge you to actually say WHY my suggestion would be overpowered.

I like Hype’s suggestion to be honest, seeing as how stealth doesn’t make you invulnerable, you can still drop AoE’s to keep pressure on the point, and thieves will have more diversity in their builds because they can contribute to capping/contesting points.

Keep in mind, after Dec 10th perma-stealth will be a thing of the past with the (rightfully) nerfed Infusion of Shadow trait.

Hype.8032:

selan.8354:

no, there is permastealth thieves there and such a thing would be very overpowered. i think it is fine as it is and should not be changed.

I challenge you to actually say WHY my suggestion would be overpowered.

Because being able to contest a point while being unable to effectively take damage for a prolonged period of time while everyone else who contests a point is susceptible to damage unless using certain, extremely short skills with fairly long cooldowns is just a tad unbalanced.

Zanryu.3417:

Hype.8032:

selan.8354:

no, there is permastealth thieves there and such a thing would be very overpowered. i think it is fine as it is and should not be changed.

I challenge you to actually say WHY my suggestion would be overpowered.

Because being able to contest a point while being unable to effectively take damage for a prolonged period of time while everyone else who contests a point is susceptible to damage unless using certain, extremely short skills with fairly long cooldowns is just a tad unbalanced.

Stealthed thieves/mesmers/engis/rangers are all just as susceptible to damage as a non-stealthed character.

Stealth =/= invulnerable

Forz.1725:

Zanryu.3417:

Hype.8032:

selan.8354:

no, there is permastealth thieves there and such a thing would be very overpowered. i think it is fine as it is and should not be changed.

I challenge you to actually say WHY my suggestion would be overpowered.

Because being able to contest a point while being unable to effectively take damage for a prolonged period of time while everyone else who contests a point is susceptible to damage unless using certain, extremely short skills with fairly long cooldowns is just a tad unbalanced.

Stealthed thieves/mesmers/engis/rangers are all just as susceptible to damage as a non-stealthed character.

Stealth =/= invulnerable

He didn’t even read the original post Forz. My suggestion is to offer LIMITED capability to contest while stealthed. Maybe this should only apply for the small outer points? I could see this being too easily cheesed at the extra large points.

I think a good compromise to something like this would be to allow a stealthed character to decap an enemy point, but not cap it. That way a stealthy can keep pressure on an enemy node against bunkers.

lol, how about you folks just click “i win” button from opening. perma stealth capping points in gw2, which is all about capping?

gesho.9468:

lol, how about you folks just click “i win” button from opening. perma stealth capping points in gw2, which is all about capping?

can’t perma stealth after 10th dec

Forz.1725:

I think a good compromise to something like this would be to allow a stealthed character to decap an enemy point, but not cap it. That way a stealthy can keep pressure on an enemy node against bunkers.

i guess it wouldn’t be that bad (with slower rate of course)

I think the suggestion is just fine, but honestly I don’t think it would change anything or open up build diversity. Thieves will very rarely get a point neutralized/capped from under them due to stealth, it’s usually due to stepping off point to apply ranged pressure while taking less damage.

As for build diversity, unfortunately that’s very difficult for thieves since any given ability can technically be used any number of times in a row. That’s why every thief has shortbow (blast finishers, mobility, etc).

As unpopular as it would be, unfortunately the best way to give thieves more build diversity would be nerfing shortbow utility and adding buffs to other places.

this will just cause shadow refuge to get nerfed….

you wanna contest a point, you fight like a man, not stealth like a kitten.

Not until it gets some kind of realistic but fair counter beyond interrupts.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

you wanna contest a point, you fight like a man, not stealth like a kitten.

You don’t understand how thieves work do you? 2/10 for the troll friend.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

you wanna contest a point, you fight like a man, not stealth like a kitten.

Fight like a man? Dude, it’s a video game, grow up.

I would support a change to allow stealth to contest points without any handicaps. If a Thief is taking a point in stealth it’s no different to a Thief taking a point out of stealth. Once you stand on the point, it’s no longer ticking in his teams favour.

Honestly, I’ve never understood why Thieves can’t cap in stealth already.

Hype.8032:

He didn’t even read the original post Forz. My suggestion is to offer LIMITED capability to contest while stealthed. Maybe this should only apply for the small outer points? I could see this being too easily cheesed at the extra large points.

Some logic, I disagree so I didn’t read it. Not everyone will agree with your post, and I fall into that category. Being able to contribute to a point while being un-targetable and passively able to resist a fair amount of damage due to being unable to be seen seems a tad much. Just imagine a thief or two pressuring one or two people on point while slowing down their cap progress.

Hype.8032:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

you wanna contest a point, you fight like a man, not stealth like a kitten.

You don’t understand how thieves work do you? 2/10 for the troll friend.

not really. i dun play thieves much.
i play a warrior.

10/10 for me since i got your attention.

Incurafy.6329:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

you wanna contest a point, you fight like a man, not stealth like a kitten.

Fight like a man? Dude, it’s a video game, grow up.

---

I would support a change to allow stealth to contest points without any handicaps. If a Thief is taking a point in stealth it’s no different to a Thief taking a point out of stealth. Once you stand on the point, it’s no longer ticking in his teams favour.

Honestly, I’ve never understood why Thieves can’t cap in stealth already.

what is wrong with fighting like a man? like you said, it is a video game. why are you asking me to grow up? are you asking me to grow up?

thieves originally can contest points and cap points in stealth. this was changed after too many solo thief contesting supply camps in WvW indefinitely.

stealth capping / contesting is not happening.
try hard if you like, come up with various points, reasons, suggestions, etc but it is not happening.

One of the dumbest ideas ever.

brannigan.9810:

One of the dumbest ideas ever.

Read the OP dude

brannigan.9810:

One of the dumbest ideas ever.

Zanryu.3417:

Hype.8032:

He didn’t even read the original post Forz. My suggestion is to offer LIMITED capability to contest while stealthed. Maybe this should only apply for the small outer points? I could see this being too easily cheesed at the extra large points.

Some logic, I disagree so I didn’t read it. Not everyone will agree with your post, and I fall into that category. Being able to contribute to a point while being un-targetable and passively able to resist a fair amount of damage due to being unable to be seen seems a tad much. Just imagine a thief or two pressuring one or two people on point while slowing down their cap progress.

Any other class can completely contest a point, why can’t thieves? Slowing down a cap isn’t stopping it from happening, it just lets a profession use a function and whole traitline that it was designed around.

It’s no wonder thieves get nerfed every patch. The blatant hate for this profession is astounding. Not a single person has said a single thing to show how this would be unfair or overpowered. People just want thieves to be free kills or not played at all. I still welcome any well reasoned arguments either for or against something like this.

Hype.8032:

Any other class can completely contest a point, why can’t thieves? Slowing down a cap isn’t stopping it from happening, it just lets a profession use a function and whole traitline that it was designed around.

thieves can contest or capture a point while not in stealth.

stealth as a function is not meant to contest or capture points.
you need to accept this core game play mechanics fact.

thieves originally can contest or capture a point while in stealth but this was changed. do not expect it to be reverted.

Acandis.3250:

You are either ignorant or plain stupid. Thieves already have more evades than most other classes and, NEWSFLASH, when you’re in evade frames you’re contesting.

You can actually keep a dodging thief targeted. You aren’t wasting things HOPING they hit, you can let them finish their dodge and go for the attack or bait their dodges. When in stealth you can’t bait anything.

There’s a massive difference between stealth and dodge. Oh, and every class has access to dodges. Granted they don’t have access to dodge skills, but they can all dodge.

Hype.8032:

Any other class can completely contest a point, why can’t thieves? Slowing down a cap isn’t stopping it from happening, it just lets a profession use a function and whole traitline that it was designed around.

Since when can thieves not contest points?

+1 on this especially since perma stealth is going to be no-more.

Thieves do not have the liberty to stay and fight on point unfortunately…even with s/d you need to disengage outside the point for LoS and resets…

Allowing semi-capping points would give more of a reason to fight on point and allow clutch plays when being on point for a few seconds could mean win or lose.

Hype.8032:

It’s no wonder thieves get nerfed every patch.

other professions besides thieves get nerfed too, in every patch. not just thieves. the universe does not rotates around thieves.

The blatant hate for this profession is astounding.

not true. most people are hating warriors are the moment.

Not a single person has said a single thing to show how this would be unfair or overpowered.

characters in stealth cannot be targeted directly and one would need to use area attacks to attempt to attack them. this in itself is unfair and overpowered, even if your suggested methods is implemented.

People just want thieves to be free kills or not played at all. I still welcome any well reasoned arguments either for or against something like this.

not really. good thieves are not free kills and are still actively played.

Zanryu.3417:

Acandis.3250:

You are either ignorant or plain stupid. Thieves already have more evades than most other classes and, NEWSFLASH, when you’re in evade frames you’re contesting.

You can actually keep a dodging thief targeted. You aren’t wasting things HOPING they hit, you can let them finish their dodge and go for the attack or bait their dodges. When in stealth you can’t bait anything.

There’s a massive difference between stealth and dodge. Oh, and every class has access to dodges. Granted they don’t have access to dodge skills, but they can all dodge.

Hype.8032:

Any other class can completely contest a point, why can’t thieves? Slowing down a cap isn’t stopping it from happening, it just lets a profession use a function and whole traitline that it was designed around.

Since when can thieves not contest points?

This could be good to discuss. In your estimation, is there any class that is worse than thief at contesting a point? I’m interested in your opinion.

At worse something like this would just slightly delay a point turnover but I think it’d make things more fair and give time for re-enforcements to arrive. I know stealth is a generally hated mechanic but this would make balance better even if it isn’t popular.

So they recently nerfed that invulnerability wouldn’t provide anything to the capture point contribution. Yet here you are asking that stealth should have some what an effect on what’s 10 times stronger and more spammable then invul will ever be. Okay, seems reasonable..

A class worse than thief at contesting points? Are you serious? You have tons of great 1v1 match ups. If anything you’re one of the classes that can force the diversion of manpower.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Hype.8032:

It’s no wonder thieves get nerfed every patch.

other professions besides thieves get nerfed too, in every patch. not just thieves. the universe does not rotates around thieves.

The blatant hate for this profession is astounding.

not true. most people are hating warriors are the moment.

Not a single person has said a single thing to show how this would be unfair or overpowered.

characters in stealth cannot be targeted directly and one would need to use area attacks to attempt to attack them. this in itself is unfair and overpowered, even if your suggested methods is implemented.

People just want thieves to be free kills or not played at all. I still welcome any well reasoned arguments either for or against something like this.

not really. good thieves are not free kills and are still actively played.

Warriors are hated because they are overpowered and too easy to play well. Thieves are hated because people don’t enjoy fighting against stealth and high evades. Personally, I play thief with a lot of blinds and interrupts but I know that’s just as hated as everything else.

You misread the last quoted item. I said people want thieves to be free kills, I didn’t say they currently are. You were probably right in a previous post though. I doubt something like this will be implemented, but I think it would be balanced and fair so I’m suggesting it regardless.

Zenith.7301:

A class worse than thief at contesting points? Are you serious? You have tons of great 1v1 match ups. If anything you’re one of the classes that can force the diversion of manpower.

Yes, I am serious. Take a thief defending a point against say a far point assaulter… an engi or warrior perhaps. What class would hold the point for less time than a thief in that scenario?

Bsgapollo.5364:

So they recently nerfed that invulnerability wouldn’t provide anything to the capture point contribution. Yet here you are asking that stealth should have some what an effect on what’s 10 times stronger and more spammable then invul will ever be. Okay, seems reasonable..

This is probably the first well reasoned argument against so +1

Hype.8032:

Zenith.7301:

A class worse than thief at contesting points? Are you serious? You have tons of great 1v1 match ups. If anything you’re one of the classes that can force the diversion of manpower.

Yes, I am serious. Take a thief defending a point against say a far point assaulter… an engi or warrior perhaps. What class would hold the point for less time than a thief in that scenario?

The thief should not be defending, any more than a power spec ranger or s/d ele would be trying to defend against a warrior or engi of all things. Think a little please.

Bsgapollo.5364:

So they recently nerfed that invulnerability wouldn’t provide anything to the capture point contribution. Yet here you are asking that stealth should have some what an effect on what’s 10 times stronger and more spammable then invul will ever be. Okay, seems reasonable..

10 times stronger? Are you sure we’re playing the same game?

Stealth != invulnerable

It’s easy as kitten to kill stealthed Thieves, most players just cbf learning how.

I was a point holder once… I can understand you… I would say that even 30% cap time would be Nice , it’s enough time for a thief to defend or cap and it’s not enough time for a permastealth to defend or cap.

Incurafy.6329:

Bsgapollo.5364:

So they recently nerfed that invulnerability wouldn’t provide anything to the capture point contribution. Yet here you are asking that stealth should have some what an effect on what’s 10 times stronger and more spammable then invul will ever be. Okay, seems reasonable..

10 times stronger? Are you sure we’re playing the same game?

Stealth != invulnerable

It’s easy as kitten to kill stealthed Thieves, most players just cbf learning how.

Since stealthed characters cannot be targeted, hit with ranged attacks, and have melee swinging wildly to try to hit them they are much harder to kill than non stealthed characters.

I love how all thieves sit here and pretend like aoe is not only spammable, but that all classes have aoe with no targeting requirements.

Being able to target thieves through stealth is irrelevant.

Reason being, if he is in stealth and you are on point, the point’s contest process will be halted anyway…and while that happens and he is in stealth, he’s not doing any damage to you, so it’s no harm at all.

If he wants to start capping the point with you on it, he would have to come out of stealth to kill you, thus you shoudl have no problems targeting him even if you have no AOE.

Capping slowly in stealth is more for “recon” missions where you try to play mind games and to backcap someone or for those clutch times when you really need a point to be neut or held for a few more seconds. A thief will always be a thief and thus for him to do any damage to you, he would have to come out of stealth anyway.

If in the future we can partially cap in stealth, you should be more worried about mesmers than thieves since they can pretty much have thief stealthing uptime, but their advantage is that they can have their clones kill you while they are in stealth and it won’t reveal them. Imagine the current s/t + staff condi mesmers being able to cap a point while completely trolling you with stealth and clones?

Again, let’s remember that perma stealth is no longer after next patch, so you will not see thieves cap a point anyway in stealth since it requires 15s to cap a full point from another team.

It’s not irrelevant. It’s guaranteed spike opportunity or a reset. There’s no resetting a fight for most other classes. He can keep baiting out cd’s till you’re out of cd’s and he can do lasting damage.

And this is talking only of bunkers. Non condi bunker builds are free kills to a D/P thief with guild up.

Zenith.7301:

It’s not irrelevant. It’s guaranteed spike opportunity or a reset. There’s no resetting a fight for most other classes. He can keep baiting out cd’s till you’re out of cd’s and he can do lasting damage.

And this is talking only of bunkers. Non condi bunker builds are free kills to a D/P thief with guild up.

How is resetting relevant to him fighting on point? (which he has to in order to cap it) If he is on point, you can dps him, and if he’s not on point, you will contest it.

You cannot reset without getting out of combat, and if you’re talking about regenning life with shadow rejuvenation trait, that won’t work as effectively anymore after the next patch where perma stealth is gone.

D/P requires you to leap through black powders via heartseekers. Have you tried to lay a blackpowder down on point, then tried to leap through it a few times without hitting the enemy or his petting zoo? It’s not an easy task and chances are you’ll reveal yourself by accidentally heartseeking something.

Again, with the next balance patch, you will no longer get perma stealth, and thus Cruuk’s style of play is no longer going to work. You will not see anyone perma stealthing and resetting every few seconds because initiative WILL drain fast without infusion of shadows.

Non-condi bunker builds are free kills for thieves? If we’re talking about a tpvp environment, ANY bunker shouldn’t be a free kill for thieves if you know what you’re doing. If, and that is a big IF, by the time a thief can kill you through a trolly stealth build, your teammate would be here to to kill him already. Have you tried to use a perma stealth reset build vs current point holders like spirit rangers, warriors, guardians? Let me tell you it doesn’t do anything unless the other player has no clue how to play the build well.

Warriors and guardians and rangers are not the glass builds I was talking about and you know it. Try playing a power spec ranger or necro or engineer and see how well you fare against any thief with half a brain.

Yes, I run stealth spam thief build. It’s not made for tournaments, but it’s ridiculously effective in the department of 1v1, and it’s especially broken when I take my thief to WvW, where my 4-5k tpvp backstabs suddenly turn into 7-8k backstabs.

I play a thief, and there’s no other class bar a signet warrior with greatsword disengage who can just peace out of a fight whenever he messes up and try again shortly after he’s reset.

Next patch is a good step in fixing that. Infiltrator strike made me pretty much immune to CC spikes, and my D/P was just absurd against melee reliant specs.

I know for a fact that I pay very dearly with my engineer or zerker elementalist if I don’t land what I need to land. There’s no return from screwing up on many classes.

I think it is fine as it is. I play a Guardian and giving thief this ability would just give him ability to recover in peace for 3 seconds and fight for 7 secons etc … or just use as much stealth as possible if they could decap/cap until 50% and then even if they die they can still keep point contested for 10 seconds atleast.

If Guardian uses his elite and becomes invulnerable for 3 secs the point also gets decaped and stealth is some form of invulnerability.

It also makes players think more they can not just mass hide the whole team because point will become decaped but with this in 4vs4 fight they could just hide for a bit recover and restart if the fight wasnt looking good.

2 thieves can just perma block the point indefinetly even against 5 players jsut from switching one another in stealth in and out of the point to avoid damage.Really bad and unreasonable request everyone knows it even the op and thats why he is asking for it.

brannigan.9810:

One of the dumbest ideas ever.

And I play thief so don’t come with that “hurr you just hate thief” argument.
D/D can perma stealth.
D/P can stealth for like 30 seconds even without shadow arts. So no, it will never happen.

ahuba.6430:

brannigan.9810:

One of the dumbest ideas ever.

And I play thief so don’t come with that “hurr you just hate thief” argument.
D/D can perma stealth.
D/P can stealth for like 30 seconds even without shadow arts. So no, it will never happen.

Uhhh no, D/P pseudo-permastealth is being nerfed next patch and D/D can’t get it unless they’re fighting someone who doesn’t know how to dodge or fighting a pet build. Even so, a Thief chaining CnD on a point isn’t capping it because their opponent will be on the point anyway.

I’m still waiting to hear a good reason why Thieves shkuldnt be able to contest in stealth besides “lol fief char in stelth is op day r invuln cos u cant kill somethin u cant c!!!”