Stronghold Will Ruin PvE Balance

Stronghold Will Ruin PvE Balance

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Posted by: Lishtenbird.2814

Lishtenbird.2814

…as well as build diversity across all game modes.

  • The new Stronghold game mode, while put into the Conquest queue, is highly advertised by ANet and is getting a lot of attention from players.
  • Meta builds for Stronghold will be different from Conquest builds.

Assaulter —This player clears the way of enemy players, trebuchets, and NPC guards, giving doorbreakers a clear shot at the gate. A high-damage build for bursting down NPCs being healed by defending players and the ability to go one-on-one are a must. Smuggler —Smugglers gather supply and spend it at the barracks. They keep an eye on which unit best suits the current situation and then send that unit down the offense lane. Swiftness, stability, and evasion are a big help when gathering and running supply, but be prepared for a team fight at the supply depot when being quick and sneaky isn’t enough. Smugglers will also be well positioned to compete against enemy players to channel mist essence and call forth a hero, thus possibly turning the tide of a battle. Shepherd —The shepherd meets up with units spawned by the smuggler and shepherds them up the lane to where the assaulters are keeping the lane clear. This is a role perfectly suited for players who love to play support. They keep their doorbreakers moving, buffed, and—most importantly—alive as they protect them in face-to-face confrontations against enemy defenses. Defender —The defender’s job is to stop the enemy and their doorbreakers from breaking down their gate and advancing. You can play a high-damage dueling build to kill the enemy assaulters and shepherds in order to pick off doorbreakers as they come through, or you can take a more defensive approach and focus on keeping your guards alive so they can stop doorbreakers in their tracks. Trebuchet Master —The trebuchet master operates their team’s trebuchet in order to rain fiery death on assaulters, shepherds, troops, and anyone else who dares approach their stronghold. They also exert control on distant parts of the map, such as the strategically important supply depot. An effective trebuchet master must be prepared to fight duels to maintain area control and prevent opposing players from summoning a hero to gain the upper hand. Roamer —The roamer is a jack-of-all-trades. This role is for the generalist who fills in wherever needed, in any number of situations, by bouncing constantly between lanes, the supply depot, and hero channels to fight enemy players all over the map. Slayer —This player tries to break apart and destroy other player roles. They hunt down players who are smuggling, shepherding, defending, or manning trebuchets to wipe them out while mostly ignoring NPCs.

  • ANet insists on balancing PvE, WvW and PvP together.
  • Builds which are too good get continuous attention from the PvP community, resulting in balance changes across the whole game.
    • Example problem: a certain amulet is “too good” on two certain classes in Conquest. Example solution: nerf Might across the whole game and all 3 game modes, along with runes and sigils, affecting all players and discouraging highly organised synergetic play.
    • Example problem: mesmers are “too good” in confusing low-skill players in skirmish scenarios. Example solution: nerf all potential damage output on mesmers and render them next to useless or easily replaceable in all 3 game modes.
  • Users are already discussing nerfs to stealth because of Stronghold, and the same will happen with stability/immunity and heavy CC builds.
  • This will result in all game modes getting a very limited set of efficient builds, with all previously marginally efficient builds getting nerfed because of their over-efficiency in a certain niche situation which was destined to have more public attention at the moment, with PvE – the major part of the game – obviously drawing the short straw.
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Posted by: Acgsev.6931

Acgsev.6931

oh no! pve will be unbalanced! whatever shall we do

Forget it, Jake. It’s SoloQ.

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Posted by: Lishtenbird.2814

Lishtenbird.2814

oh no! pve will be unbalanced! whatever shall we do

Don’t worry, I’ll make sure to enjoy the “i dont care about stronghold give me back my CC and stability!!!111” and “nerf immune druid anetplox!!!111” posts when HoT hits too

Attachments:

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Posted by: Mouby.7096

Mouby.7096

You’re seriously asking for balance in PvE? Are you really playing guild wars 2? There isn’t even any kind of “endgame” content in Guild Wars 2-PvE. And if you think about it, it’s way more important to balance pvp than pve. You can successful do everything in PvE with every single profession. Why would you destroy the pvp part (minority) just for the sake of trying to get some balance in PvE (which is literally impossible).

There’s no balance in PvE at all (Berserker > Condition), so please stop beeing myopic and trying to destroy the last bit of pvp in this game because you think PvE needs some balance.

If you’re talking about WvW it’s no difference at all. There’s no point in trying to balance gamemodes without any competion in them. If you really insist on trying to balance those zergfests….

You didn’t even come to a conclusion. What would you recommend? Balancing the game for PvE so we can finally delete the PvP-Part of gw2 and run some rly CHALLENGING dungeons about 30 seconds faster and with two new “viable” speccs? LMAO.

The only conclusion would be to totally seperate PvE, PvP and WvW. But you can’t do this, because some people might get “confused” about minor differences between the gamemodes. Kappa.

edit: And now please go back to your PvE-Forums and continue farming Silverwastes already.

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Posted by: xDudisx.5914

xDudisx.5914

I believe stronghold been taken in consideration to the future class balance will have a great side effect for wvw and pve.

Now we have a official spvp mode that does not consist of fight in a small node. Now it will be evident that some build/classes sucks when not fighting in a node. And some others are just too strong when having to stay in the node is not required.

Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]

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Posted by: Lishtenbird.2814

Lishtenbird.2814

You’re seriously asking for balance in PvE? Are you really playing guild wars 2? There isn’t even any kind of “endgame” content in Guild Wars 2-PvE. And if you think about it, it’s way more important to balance pvp than pve. You can successful do everything in PvE with every single profession. Why would you destroy the pvp part (minority) just for the sake of trying to get some balance in PvE (which is literally impossible).

There’s no balance in PvE at all (Berserker > Condition), so please stop beeing myopic and trying to destroy the last bit of pvp in this game because you think PvE needs some balance.

If you’re talking about WvW it’s no difference at all. There’s no point in trying to balance gamemodes without any competion in them. If you really insist on trying to balance those zergfests….

A truck is balanced around how good it can deliver goods from point A to point B. Not around how good it can be smashed in a Monster Truck show.

A race car is balanced around how fast it can go through X laps. Not around how cool its 1:43 scale model will look among others.

A game with 90% of PvE content, gem-unlocked Living Story and visual skins in Gemstore should be balanced around the most paying customers who keep the development running. Not around a group of players who turn “standardized models” on and never check the new content which is being regularly released.

That’s business logic and common sense.

The only conclusion would be to totally seperate PvE, PvP and WvW. But you can’t do this, because some people might get “confused” about minor differences between the gamemodes. Kappa.

And that is the problem of the minority. One can’t make all mice in the world left-handed just because seeing two different type of mice is “confusing”.

And some others are just too strong when having to stay in the node is not required.

…and this is where not-on-node fighters get nerfed into oblivion, and the whole PvE with next to no CC requirements gets its damage cut again.

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Posted by: butch.8136

butch.8136

Can we just wait for the specs and the revenant first? Those alone will shake up the entire meta (wvw/pve/pvp).

Razor xxxx (Desolation ; Off)
Bring back: ‘Gamer’ title + MAT’s!
Throw out: Hotjoin!

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Posted by: Koviko.3248

Koviko.3248

PvE balance isn’t really a thing in GW2. PvE is always unbalanced. Certain classes do things that other classes can’t.

In WoW, PvE balance meant keeping all classes within a cretain percentage points of each other in terms of affectiveness while playing the same role (eg. all DPS specs were ideally within 10% of each other). In a game without roles, there’s really nothing to balance. Every class has a means of doing damage and not dying? Balanced enough.

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Posted by: Bertrand.3057

Bertrand.3057

Eh, nerfing something is not the same as creating an imbalance. Let’s look at your examples:

  • Example problem: a certain amulet is “too good” on two certain classes in Conquest. Example solution: nerf Might across the whole game and all 3 game modes, along with runes and sigils, affecting all players and discouraging highly organised synergetic play.

It is still optimal to have full might stacks, and there are still certain classes that are able to stack might in ways that other classes are not. I don’t see how might was balanced to begin with or how this introduces an imbalance.

  • Example problem: mesmers are “too good” in confusing low-skill players in skirmish scenarios. Example solution: nerf all potential damage output on mesmers and render them next to useless or easily replaceable in all 3 game modes.

This will never be a reason for changes to mesmer balance. PvP balance is focused on high tier play, not beginner play. That’s why bunker specs that can dominate in beginner play have persisted in the game: they have no place in competitive games. Issues that mesmers have in PvE has to do with content design, not overall damage nerfs, but as they exist they really have no issue in terms of damage or utility.

  • Users are already discussing nerfs to stealth because of Stronghold, and the same will happen with stability/immunity and heavy CC builds.

No such changes have been announced, and until you can explain how such changes that are being speculated upon would detrimentally affect PvE play, you aren’t actually making an argument against them.

Talleyrand, Captain and Commander of the Bloody Pirates
Asura on patrol in defense of Gandara and Bessie!
Administrator of http://thisisgandara.com

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Posted by: Jamais vu.5284

Jamais vu.5284

What exactly is your fear for “PvE balance”? That you can’t kill mobs a hundredth second faster than before? That your class will be discriminated against … in open world content?

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Posted by: SobeSoul.6910

SobeSoul.6910

Get rekt fractal runners

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Posted by: ThFH.6048

ThFH.6048

It is not the damage part of PvE that will get nerfed but things like stealthstacking and crowd control that will get nerfed and those nerfs will highly affect how you can run dugeons and fractals.

The big question some of you have is why will this happen answer is simple. Because the PvP players will begin to scream that the thiefs stealth/smoke screens together with on other class’ abilty to have blast finishers makes them have a lot of stealth so they can easily acquire suplies and spend them. Same applies to crowd control because some crowd control skills are to strong they get nerfed.

Since there is only one balance in Guildwars 2 and that is PvP it will affect PvE as well and in some dungeons ‘skipping’ or stealth is a main part of the its dungeon design just like crowd control is something that gets used on some dungeon bosses or even open world bosses. So yes there is a serious concern that the stronghold mode will affect PvE builds and thus how the game works in PvE.

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Posted by: Teutos.8620

Teutos.8620

and in some dungeons ‘skipping’ or stealth is a main part of the its dungeon design

So, you are complaining, that you can’t abuse the stealth mechanic any more and actually have to fight your way through the dungeon, how it was originally designed to?

So yes there is a serious concern that the stronghold mode will affect PvE builds and thus how the game works in PvE.

PvE balance is on a complete different level than tpvp. It just does not matter in PvE if a skill does 10% more damage or less, or has 5 seconds more CD or not.

EU – Multiple times #1 SoloQ pre Dec 2014 (pure MMR based ladder)
Primoridal (S1) & Exalted (S2) & Illustrious (S3) Legend

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Posted by: Koviko.3248

Koviko.3248

I believe that if something is OP in PvP, it’s also OP in PvE. ANet just didn’t notice it.

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Posted by: xDudisx.5914

xDudisx.5914

I don’t think stronghold will result in a nerf for cc in pve. Did you watch the stream? The guild lord had a defiance bar instead of defiance stacks. When the warrior used fear me it dropped from 100% to 20-25% maybe now different CCs will have a different impact in defiance.

Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]

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Posted by: ThFH.6048

ThFH.6048

and in some dungeons ‘skipping’ or stealth is a main part of the its dungeon design

So, you are complaining, that you can’t abuse the stealth mechanic any more and actually have to fight your way through the dungeon, how it was originally designed to?

Have you ever played Arah path 1? Parts of it only house elite mobs and not three or five but around twenty mobs. Fighting them is nearly impossible so it is designed to skip and why do we have stealth if we are not allowed to use it. If we were not allowed to use it developers would have probably changed it.

So yes there is a serious concern that the stronghold mode will affect PvE builds and thus how the game works in PvE.

PvE balance is on a complete different level than tpvp. It just does not matter in PvE if a skill does 10% more damage or less, or has 5 seconds more CD or not.

So you agree with OP and with me that there should be soem kind of differentiation in PvP and PvE balance since it are two different game modes. Also I am not talking about damage -although with some of the dps races implemented it becomes more important- but about things like stealth and crowd control which are used on very specific times during dungeon runs and during events like tequatl and the tripple trouble wurm

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Posted by: Iason Evan.3806

Iason Evan.3806

Skill splits across formats making game more enjoyable for all players<Less work for devs.

Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall

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Posted by: Teutos.8620

Teutos.8620

Fighting them is nearly impossible

I understand you, who needs a challenge in PvE?

If we were not allowed to use it developers would have probably changed it.

Yes, it should have been changed. F.e. they should have given the mobs stealth detection. But who cares? It is PvE, it really does not matter if the players are able to finish the path 5 minutes earlier….

So you agree with OP and with me that there should be soem kind of differentiation in PvP and PvE balance since it are two different game modes.

I agree, that the best would be to have more differences. But in the end I still don’t understand why PvE-players complain about balance… god’s sake it is PvE…

EU – Multiple times #1 SoloQ pre Dec 2014 (pure MMR based ladder)
Primoridal (S1) & Exalted (S2) & Illustrious (S3) Legend

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Posted by: ThFH.6048

ThFH.6048

Skill splits across formats making game more enjoyable for all players<Less work for devs.

It is indeed a serious dillema, ArenaNet decided for the second with understandably for PvP since it is the mode that only works with good balance. Also ArenaNet wants their PvP to be at a E-sports level so many decessions are made to keep PvP games spectacular and allow different builds.

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Posted by: Tim.6450

Tim.6450

I believe that if something is OP in PvP, it’s also OP in PvE. ANet just didn’t notice it.

Dhuumfire has never been OP in PvE and yet it caused a series of nerfs.

EverythingOP

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Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

What’s hilarious is that your acting like pve is balanced now. There are literally only two gear stats in pve, assassins and berserkers. There are only 7 out of 8 classes, necros being extremely subpar in comparison to every other class. Your worried about things that haven’t even happened yet. How about asking for Anet to finally make stats better across the board first, and making necros actually useful for something. Your complaining about problems that aren’t even there. This is nothing short of fear mongering, your literally being the FOX NEWS of guild wars.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

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Posted by: ThFH.6048

ThFH.6048

What’s hilarious is that your acting like pve is balanced now. There are literally only two gear stats in pve, assassins and berserkers. There are only 7 out of 8 classes, necros being extremely subpar in comparison to every other class. Your worried about things that haven’t even happened yet. How about asking for Anet to finally make stats better across the board first, and making necros actually useful for something. Your complaining about problems that aren’t even there. This is nothing short of fear mongering, your literally being the FOX NEWS of guild wars.

You are correct nothing has happened and might never happen, you are also right about the lack of gear stats used in PvE. Balance might not be as important in PvE as in PvP but the changes still affect PvE gameplay. Over the last year ArenaNet tries to listen to its players and change things accordingly, so what OP has done is show his concerns about what might happen to some PvE mechanics so ArenaNet can think about it. This is what ArenaNet wants they want their players to give feedback and think with them and some things might be bordering conspiracy theories but can be valid concerns or at least deserve to be mentioned.

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Posted by: ensoriki.5789

ensoriki.5789

PvE balance in gw2 comes off unimportant. I played ffxiv and its a well done game. PvE balance being important in that pve content is not only a priority due to being the main game, content can be difficult at endgame to require dropping underpowered characters to adequetly compete.
I remember at release the warrior for ffxiv was mathematically proven underpowered as well as some DPs classes. They resolved this.

With GW2 however a lot of content is open world so character imbalance gets drown out by Numbers.
Instanced content doesn’t really seem to be any kind of priority or particularly important since gear progression caps relatively quickly and easily.

With GW2s biggest draws being large numbers of players in open world and wvw, pve balance isn’t as significant by design choice.
PvP balance however while overvalued to an extent is also much more critical then pve given that gw2 instanced pvp is at a 5 player standard, where a profession is 20% of the teams power.

I’d be open to agree with you if gw2 pve made profession choice important but it’s not that significant relevant to content when professions break down on a surface level to merely dps.

The great forum duppy.

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

I don’t think that either PvE or WvW will be ever “balanced” in this game. No roles, almost no unique bonuses, specific tactics that just work better than others, one-two gearsets and nerd-toxic parts of dungeon community. Too many variables. You introduce one new food, bam, kitten hits the fan and suddenly you broke the game.

That’s why competitive PvP has certain areas standarized and that’s why PvP balance should be the priority.

Don’t underestimate PvP community. PvPers are probably the most loyal and consistent community part of games. May not be the biggest in this game, but who knows, IF GvG ladders come live with Stronghold, it may change quite significantly.

They could also separate all 3 modes. But I think they just don’t have enough manpower for such things to be done right.

Btw, I’ve been always wondering. Why post it here, in PvP section? Unless you just want to light up the village, better post it on General Forum.
Or even better, attach a pic of quaggan or asura and post it on reddit. You will be glorified and get many upvotes!

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
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(edited by Rym.1469)

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Posted by: xDudisx.5914

xDudisx.5914

I don’t think that either PvE or WvW will be ever “balanced” in this game. No roles, almost no unique bonuses, specific tactics that just work better than others, one-two gearsets and nerd-toxic parts of dungeon community. Too many variables. You introduce one new food, bam, kitten hits the fan and suddenly you broke the game.

Spvp right now is basically zerker or celestial for the great majority. WvW actually has more roles than conquest mode.

Don’t underestimate PvP community. PvPers are probably the most loyal and consistent community part of games. May not be the biggest in this game, but who knows, IF GvG ladders come live with Stronghold, it may change quite significantly.

Do you have anything to back up what you said? Probably not. I could say that any other community is the most loyal with no prof and would be as valid as your statement.

Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]

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Posted by: Coulter.2315

Coulter.2315

PvP is largely how the game has been balanced since launch why are you concerned now? Also anyone saying “oh noes Stronghold will mean X gets nerf’d” when we’re going to get a whole new class and specialisations is being ridiculous.

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Posted by: Shiyo.3578

Shiyo.3578

Might and mesmers were long overdue for nerfs. 2 years to nerf might was insane.

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

PvPers are the most loyal communities.

Counter Strike 1.6, Age of Empires 2, heck, even Quake or EnemyT. , spaces in between MMO expansions, any CoD, popularity of MOBAs (despite only couple new skins or characters introduced from time to time).

Human competes with Human, it’s always been exciting. Human vs. script, alghoritm, something fixed and predictable – may be excitement, but for a limited period of time. It always gets stale and boring, eventually.

Here, the evidence.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

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Posted by: xDudisx.5914

xDudisx.5914

PvPers are the most loyal communities.

Counter Strike 1.6, Age of Empires 2, heck, even Quake or EnemyT. , spaces in between MMO expansions, any CoD, popularity of MOBAs (despite only couple new skins or characters introduced from time to time).

Human competes with Human, it’s always been exciting. Human vs. script, alghoritm, something fixed and predictable – may be excitement, but for a limited period of time. It always gets stale and boring, eventually.

Here, the evidence.

Nothing that you posted contributes to proving what you stated before. Popular is not a synonymous of loyal. You are just taking your own opinion and considering as a fact.

Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]