Guild Wars 2

What’s the point of being chain stunned over and over? Is there some kind of dismishing return that I’m not aware of?

Nope, its just another “broken” feature.

It’s pretty normal. Was in GW1 too (hammer warrior quarter knocking).

Use dodge or stability?

Yes I do. The point is when you get stunned over and over again.

Yeah, its a problem. Most PvPers are used to diminishing returns systems or other ways that its mitigated, but this has been left out of GW2. I think stability is intended to serve this role, but it ultimately doesn’t, and here’s why.

The real problem with CCs is not 1v1s. In 1v1s (as long as the classes are balanced) each player has access to equal amounts of CC and CC mitigation. In 2v2s, 3v3s, 5v5s, etc., any 2 or more players can by the very nature of class balance put more CCs on any one player than that one player can mitigate or escape. This is what diminishing returns systems have always been for: making sure CC wasn’t too strong in team fights.

Now the difference between stability (as well as dodging) and these DR systems is that the DR systems are always in effect and consistently apply their effects to all players. Stability, on the other hand, is a short duration boon with a long cooldown which is not easily accessible to every profession and which is easily recognized in a player’s boons, allowing opposing players to use their CCs on another player or wait until the boon expires, knowing that the player will then not have access to it for a long period of time. Dodging has a similar problem in that one only has so much endurance.

What this all means is that the huge downside that having CC in any game can bring to that game – a profoundly negative impact on the overall enjoyability of the PvP experience – rears its ugly head. It should definitely be looked at.

It’s mental and needs to be fixed asap. Diminishing returns is the only proper way to fix it.

What……? You’re getting “stun chained” because you have no “stun breakers”. Most builds in tPvP carry at least 2 stun breakers for survivability. Stability is also a fix

If the enemy team is able to chain stun + kill you in a teamfight they play better as a team than your team. The current system promotes good teamplay… and that is great.
If you get chain stunned someone of your team could cc an enemy, who tries to cc you, and thus help you to get out of the stun. A guardian could help you with a bubble. Etc…
Diminishing returns would result in less importance of teamplay. Thus I don’t want to see that :/

Stuns a like 1 sec, you have to be very unlucky to get chain stunned. Seriously quit whining, theres nothing wrong with stuns.

chain stun on you means there are no stuns left for others. if you use properly your break stun they will waste a lot of control.

but…if we are talking about 8v8..there was no need for this thread..so i guess it was not referring to it.

Gelrod, even if I grant you that team play can mitigate CCs, there are a few problems with that. I think the biggest practical one is that, right now, its vastly more efficient for teammates to spend their efforts bursting down the enemy rather than saving you while you’re CCed. A tweak to burst damage, time-to-kill, or something would make a big difference.

That said, I think that you’re correct: the game works much better with very organized team play, and I think this is actually a problem. Now don’t get me wrong: I don’t think its a problem because organized team play is bad – its not, and I’m glad that the game does reward it. At the same time, a game which can only really be enjoyed while at such a high level of team play isn’t going to survive very long. A lot of people play organized tournaments, its true, but the vast majority of people just want to be able to hop into a game either solo or with a friend and be able to have fun. That’s not really possible currently.

A game like StarCraft 2 is balanced around the highest level play, and this is good for the most part, because its those best of the best players who can really do with each race everything that’s possible. At the same time, there is also that huge majority of players who want to play the game and aren’t at that skill level. Now, there was a pretty lengthy period when the Terran race was faring very poorly against the other two at all but the highest levels – where it was doing alright, for the most part. When you’re the among the best in the world with 200 or 300 APM, Terran could be played effectively, but for the average Joe with 50 – 100 APM, it couldn’t be. What we saw, ultimately, was that the number of Terran players below the highest levels dropped dramatically during this period. Nobody wanted to play the race at those lower and middle levels because it was just not fun, even though it was ok at higher levels.

The same is going to be true of the PvP in this game if nothing is done. While I certainly think rewarding high level team play is good, it needs to be (and CAN be) done in such a way that it doesn’t make anyone without a super organized and skilled team have a hard time finding any enjoyment in it. Look, you or someone else may say, “oh the PvP in that game doesn’t take skill like in this one,” but I know for sure that in TOR, very organized high level team play was rewarded greatly and was almost a whole other game, but it was also possible to just jump into a game with a random 7 other people and have fun.

If the PvP in this game is going to survive, then that kind of dynamic really needs to be brought in somehow.

It’s not that hard to be chain stunned, and its not that hard to chain stun someone else. I’ve been on both ends. In fact, because of the way that some controlling effects stack in duration, its incredibly easy to keep someone CCed for a long time.

Yes, there is stability, but anyone who is worth his salt is going to wait until he sees a stability boon expire before using a CC on his enemy, knowing that he can’t have stability again for a long time. Stun breaks work great one on one, but in a 3v3 or a 5v5 when you have multiple persons using CC on a single person, they run out very quickly, and contrary to what some may claim, you can still as a team have more than enough left over to do it to other players after the first one.

Skolops I think introducing a player rank system would go a long way to helping casual players feel like they’re not getting dominated constantly by highskilled players.

Skolops.2604:

Gelrod, even if I grant you that team play can mitigate CCs, there are a few problems with that. I think the biggest practical one is that, right now, its vastly more efficient for teammates to spend their efforts bursting down the enemy rather than saving you while you’re CCed. A tweak to burst damage, time-to-kill, or something would make a big difference.

That said, I think that you’re correct: the game works much better with very organized team play, and I think this is actually a problem. Now don’t get me wrong: I don’t think its a problem because organized team play is bad – its not, and I’m glad that the game does reward it. At the same time, a game which can only really be enjoyed while at such a high level of team play isn’t going to survive very long. A lot of people play organized tournaments, its true, but the vast majority of people just want to be able to hop into a game either solo or with a friend and be able to have fun. That’s not really possible currently.

A game like StarCraft 2 is balanced around the highest level play, and this is good for the most part, because its those best of the best players who can really do with each race everything that’s possible. At the same time, there is also that huge majority of players who want to play the game and aren’t at that skill level. Now, there was a pretty lengthy period when the Terran race was faring very poorly against the other two at all but the highest levels – where it was doing alright, for the most part. When you’re the among the best in the world with 200 or 300 APM, Terran could be played effectively, but for the average Joe with 50 – 100 APM, it couldn’t be. What we saw, ultimately, was that the number of Terran players below the highest levels dropped dramatically during this period. Nobody wanted to play the race at those lower and middle levels because it was just not fun, even though it was ok at higher levels.

The same is going to be true of the PvP in this game if nothing is done. While I certainly think rewarding high level team play is good, it needs to be (and CAN be) done in such a way that it doesn’t make anyone without a super organized and skilled team have a hard time finding any enjoyment in it. Look, you or someone else may say, “oh the PvP in that game doesn’t take skill like in this one,” but I know for sure that in TOR, very organized high level team play was rewarded greatly and was almost a whole other game, but it was also possible to just jump into a game with a random 7 other people and have fun.

If the PvP in this game is going to survive, then that kind of dynamic really needs to be brought in somehow.

Of course you are right about that. The game should both have a high skill cap but still be playable for a casual player without resulting in frustration.
But I don’t see, that Chain-CC is a huge problem for that: If a “random casual group” fights another “random casual group” both teams will have problem countering chain-cc, thats right… but both teams will have problems setting up chain cc at the same time, as that usually needs some coordination to be effective. That means, the more coordination a team has, the better it uses cc and at the same time counters cc.
That being said I think, the cc-system works pretty good, when it comes to “high skill cap but still playable for casual player without resulting in frustration”.

Milo,

I don’t think its that simple… its not an issue of players’ skill level exactly. The problem is that high level team play isn’t required by any means to put out strong offense. It is required for even moderate defense, though.

It’s easy for two random, uncoordinated players to chain-CC some poor fellow into death, but the kinds of coordination it takes to counter that is pretty up there. This means that introducing a ranking system will do nothing to limit or eliminate all of the things from low and mid level play that make the game less fun or even outright infuriating. In fact, it can only make things worse by taking any players good enough to even begin to improve defense at these levels and putting them in some other bracket.

Gelrod.1295:

Skolops.2604:

Gelrod, even if I grant you that team play can mitigate CCs, there are a few problems with that. I think the biggest practical one is that, right now, its vastly more efficient for teammates to spend their efforts bursting down the enemy rather than saving you while you’re CCed. A tweak to burst damage, time-to-kill, or something would make a big difference.

That said, I think that you’re correct: the game works much better with very organized team play, and I think this is actually a problem. Now don’t get me wrong: I don’t think its a problem because organized team play is bad – its not, and I’m glad that the game does reward it. At the same time, a game which can only really be enjoyed while at such a high level of team play isn’t going to survive very long. A lot of people play organized tournaments, its true, but the vast majority of people just want to be able to hop into a game either solo or with a friend and be able to have fun. That’s not really possible currently.

A game like StarCraft 2 is balanced around the highest level play, and this is good for the most part, because its those best of the best players who can really do with each race everything that’s possible. At the same time, there is also that huge majority of players who want to play the game and aren’t at that skill level. Now, there was a pretty lengthy period when the Terran race was faring very poorly against the other two at all but the highest levels – where it was doing alright, for the most part. When you’re the among the best in the world with 200 or 300 APM, Terran could be played effectively, but for the average Joe with 50 – 100 APM, it couldn’t be. What we saw, ultimately, was that the number of Terran players below the highest levels dropped dramatically during this period. Nobody wanted to play the race at those lower and middle levels because it was just not fun, even though it was ok at higher levels.

The same is going to be true of the PvP in this game if nothing is done. While I certainly think rewarding high level team play is good, it needs to be (and CAN be) done in such a way that it doesn’t make anyone without a super organized and skilled team have a hard time finding any enjoyment in it. Look, you or someone else may say, “oh the PvP in that game doesn’t take skill like in this one,” but I know for sure that in TOR, very organized high level team play was rewarded greatly and was almost a whole other game, but it was also possible to just jump into a game with a random 7 other people and have fun.

If the PvP in this game is going to survive, then that kind of dynamic really needs to be brought in somehow.

Of course you are right about that. The game should both have a high skill cap but still be playable for a casual player without resulting in frustration.
But I don’t see, that Chain-CC is a huge problem for that: If a “random casual group” fights another “random casual group” both teams will have problem countering chain-cc, thats right… but both teams will have problems setting up chain cc at the same time, as that usually needs some coordination to be effective. That means, the more coordination a team has, the better it uses cc and at the same time counters cc.
That being said I think, the cc-system works pretty good, when it comes to “high skill cap but still playable for casual player without resulting in frustration”.

I disagree completely. Two monkeys with labotamies can chain stun a guy. It’s happened in every game that’s ever had CC, and it’s no different here. In fact, in other games with their diminishing returns/resolve/whatever system, the joke was on the two baddies who chain stunned the guy back to back and gave him CC immunity. In this game, there’s nothing but suffering for the CCed player while even the most terrible of players can feel (and be!) successful mashing their buttons.

It’s ultimately a problem of offense being too accessible, and defense not being accessible enough.

Indeed they are boring and as already shows the history in many others game as been removed, because they are just lamers abilities and not skillful.

Bring stability and use dodges intelligently is the basic answer to this. There are also plenty of stun break and condition removal skills already available in this game.

I would love for someone to explain to me on these boards what actual skill is, because apparently anything involving playing a class and pressing a button is lame and easy.

We’ve gone from “Heartseeker is lame and OP” to complaining about stuns now? Really?

Fine I’ll join in, since we’re being silly. Condition damage is OP. I just sit there on fire and bleeding and poisoned and there’s nothing I can do about it. Discuss.

There are a wide variety of stun breakers, some are better for team fights and self peeling then others.

Necro Ghost Walk give you swiftness and the ability to juke with the optional return component, Engi Rocket Boots fires you a great distance behind yourself, Mesmer Decoy gives you instant stealth and yet another clone to throw off your opponents.

You shouldn’t have any trouble escaping focus if you’re running the proper defensive abilities on your bar.

And no DR is not needed or wanted in this game, it’s far to “gamey” as a mechanic that goes on completely behind the scenes and takes away from the focus on what is happening on the screen. And also makes abilities preform less than there tooltip states under certain conditions which is less straight forward for spectators and just makes less sense in general.

i have no stuns on my bar

im ok with the stuns

/shrug

sami.3801:

What’s the point of being chain stunned over and over? Is there some kind of dismishing return that I’m not aware of?

Stun isn’t the problem, we have stability and most of the stuns are very short anyway …
Roots on the other hand ….

Gigawatt.5217:

There are a wide variety of stun breakers, some are better for team fights and self peeling then others.

Necro Ghost Walk give you swiftness and the ability to juke with the optional return component, Engi Rocket Boots fires you a great distance behind yourself, Mesmer Decoy gives you instant stealth and yet another clone to throw off your opponents.

You shouldn’t have any trouble escaping focus if you’re running the proper defensive abilities on your bar.

And no DR is not needed or wanted in this game, it’s far to “gamey” as a mechanic that goes on completely behind the scenes and takes away from the focus on what is happening on the screen. And also makes abilities preform less than there tooltip states under certain conditions which is less straight forward for spectators and just makes less sense in general.

There are tons of stun breakers, which is why in 1 v 1s everything works out (most of the time. Some professions are still a bit lacking in the stun break and especially in the immobilize break department, while still others have vastly more than most).

In team fights, its a different story because any two people by the very nature of game balance can outstun any one person’s stun removals. That’s why other games have had DR or other systems to manage this problem. Please note something very important: its not that every other game has had these because they all just decided to, but because they’ve proven necessary to maintain a sound balance. What it comes down to is that when you don’t have these mechanics or when they’re not deemed to be implemented well, players become frustrated and quit. It will happen here if something isn’t done.

Dodge should break ALL Stuns/CC, “excluding snares” but not without a cost of 100% energy…

P.S. Another Freebie ArenaNet, man I keep this up you guys are going to own me : )

There’s no issue with the stunlocks. They’re prettykittenmandatory in tournament pvp, where people build survivable.

robbiebp.9475

There’s no issue with the stunlocks. They’re prettykittenmandatory in tournament pvp, where people build survivable.

Having a survivable build doesn’t mean a darn when you’re stunlocked. I’ve been stunlocked in survivable builds and I last only marginally longer, and I’ve killed people in tanky builds through stunlock without having to put in all that many more shots.

Of course I’m just one person and I’m neither the best nor the worst player out there. I’m just using my experience as an example.

Please give me an example in a 5v5 tournament scenario in which you were legitimately stunlocked from 100% to death. I’m actually very curious.

If the enemy team is focusing so hard on CCing you, why hasn’t your team burned the hell out of one of them? Getting chain CC’d til death doesn’t mean your out of the fight – you get downed. Any team that’s worthwhile will ensure that you get back up.

Honestly, chain stuns aren’t that big of a part in GW2. Spiking and focus firing? Absolutely. A knockdown followed up by a stun? Sure. But chain stunning from 100 to 0? Not really, no. Easily mitigated by stunbreaker+dodge and some competent team support.

If this has legitimately happened to you on several occasions please explain to me how it was done. I’m very curious to see how they did this without running a horribly gimmicky setup in tournament play.

The only way I can see this being done legitimately is via Moa Morph, which is absurdly OP.

Tallman.5193

Please give me an example in a 5v5 tournament scenario in which you were legitimately stunlocked from 100% to death. I’m actually very curious.
If the enemy team is focusing so hard on CCing you, why hasn’t your team burned the hell out of one of them? Getting chain CC’d til death doesn’t mean your out of the fight – you get downed. Any team that’s worthwhile will ensure that you get back up.
Honestly, chain stuns aren’t that big of a part in GW2. Spiking and focus firing? Absolutely. A knockdown followed up by a stun? Sure. But chain stunning from 100 to 0? Not really, no. Easily mitigated by stunbreaker+dodge and some competent team support.
If this has legitimately happened to you on several occasions please explain to me how it was done. I’m very curious to see how they did this without running a horribly gimmicky setup in tournament play.
The only way I can see this being done legitimately is via Moa Morph, which is absurdly OP.

I’m not going to try to explain a situation to you. What would I say that goes beyond what I’ve already said? Fine, here’s an example.

I was on my Ranger. I had about 1900 – 2000 toughness and 18/19kish HP. I had several condition removers and a stunbreak and everything was going fine. I was at 85 – 90% HP and not taking any fire. All of a sudden a thief immobilized me. Given that as a Ranger I have no immobilize break and my condition removal was on cooldown from wiping some huge amount of bleeds or something, I couldn’t do anything as the thief and two other players killed me over the course of at most 1.5 seconds.

This is just one example of something I’ve seen countless times and been on both sides of, and it’s honestly not even necessary to give an example. I mean, what more is there to it then, “2 people stunned me, my defense was on cooldown?” It’s not a hard scenario to envision.

This is the general issue… its not that hard to stunlock a single person in a team fight because, if their defensive skills are on cooldown, there’s nothing they can do, and with 2 or 3 people on you, even if you have every defensive cooldown up they can probably still chain you because 2 or 3 people have more stuns/control effects than one person can have escapes. This is why, as I said, other games have had DR or other systems.

The only real solution is team support, but in its current state the most supportive of builds can’t really do much to protect a person through this kind of thing and people just die too quickly to spike damage for “getting them off you” to be all that effective.

cc annoys me a LOT less in gw2 than any other game. you hardly notice it most times. only now and again is someone good enough to hold you down. but i’ve yet to be destroyed by stun “chains” other than being surrounded by three or four opponents, and quite frankly, when you’re surrounded you don’t always expect to survive anyway.