Guild Wars 2

Julie Yann.5379:

MarkPhilips.5169:

Gorni.1764:

I don’t know if this was already mentioned, but another idea would be to randomly provide 3 maps (or only 2) for the decision and players can pick one of them. This way more popular maps will be played more often but others will propably still see some action (except skyhammer ^^).

This idea can be implemented in entire vote process like this:

1. Random 3 maps

2. People needs to vote these 3 maps in x sec (like dng options) – if you don’t care = pass

3. Map with most preferences wins, if there is a tie = random between maps with most preferences.

Very easy e fast process imho.

With this vote system process, i’d stoop match time start about 30s or more, 2 min. are too much with a vote system.

That is fine but it is not going to do anything to help the team that has people who refuse to play on a certain map. The problem is that there are people at the moment who deliberately go afk because they hate a certain map and refuse to play on it (I’ve even been guilty of doing it after getting SH several times in a row). If you add a voting system odds are that you will still be forced to play those maps, those people will still go afk because they still refuse to play those maps.

AFK and vote system are different problems, i think a vote system + replacement system can be very usefull to solve many problems.

A pre-filter system adds only problems because population is very low now and mmr doesn’t work properly. A filter will complicate party composition in exponential way.

bump !

Yeah a veto system like Starcraft would be the best option

or a limit of how many times you can continuously vote the same maps (for example i can vote to participate in Battle of Kyhlo + Forest of Niflhel + Legacy of the Foefire in x3 straight times in the row . After that i will get a debuff that reduce my rewards by -50% for 30 min , or i can choose 1 main map (Battle of Kyhlo) and 2 secondaries (Spirit Watch + Temple of the Silent Storm) for only 1 time , leaving aside Skyhammer or any map that is more hatefull

MarkPhilips.5169:

AFK and vote system are different problems, i think a vote system + replacement system can be very usefull to solve many problems.

A pre-filter system adds only problems because population is very low now and mmr doesn’t work properly. A filter will complicate party composition in exponential way.

I don’t really see what problems would arise other than longer queue times but then again I don’t know a lot about coding a game. Pre filter seems like a simpler solution if you put restrictions to it. Allow people to blacklist only 1 or 2 maps from the selection. Have the map get randomly selected first. Then all the match maker has to do is pick anyone that doesn’t have a flag for that map. If after X minutes the system can’t find enough people without a blackflag then it keeps the players it has already found but selects another map and picks the remaining people from there. This way you are never forced to play a map that you don’t want to play. Reducing the amount of AFKs cause most of the time they aren’t AFK, but just refusing to play. The system removes the human element from map selection which would eliminate any possible trolling.

If there is a problem with MMR than fix the kittening MMR. Party composition is already kittened up and really can’t get any worse (like making a team of 5 thieves).

Evan Lesh.3295:

Skyhammer does not have any more uneven matches than other maps last time we checked.

That’s because they don’t leave the match. They just cap one point, then dance around spawn or launch themselves off the edge of the map for 10 minutes the avoid getting a dishonnerd buff.

Julie Yann.5379:

MarkPhilips.5169:

AFK and vote system are different problems, i think a vote system + replacement system can be very usefull to solve many problems.

A pre-filter system adds only problems because population is very low now and mmr doesn’t work properly. A filter will complicate party composition in exponential way.

I don’t really see what problems would arise other than longer queue times but then again I don’t know a lot about coding a game. Pre filter seems like a simpler solution if you put restrictions to it. Allow people to blacklist only 1 or 2 maps from the selection. Have the map get randomly selected first. Then all the match maker has to do is pick anyone that doesn’t have a flag for that map. If after X minutes the system can’t find enough people without a blackflag then it keeps the players it has already found but selects another map and picks the remaining people from there. This way you are never forced to play a map that you don’t want to play. Reducing the amount of AFKs cause most of the time they aren’t AFK, but just refusing to play. The system removes the human element from map selection which would eliminate any possible trolling.

If there is a problem with MMR than fix the kittening MMR. Party composition is already kittened up and really can’t get any worse (like making a team of 5 thieves).

Evan Lesh.3295:

Skyhammer does not have any more uneven matches than other maps last time we checked.

That’s because they don’t leave the match. They just cap one point, then dance around spawn or launch themselves off the edge of the map for 10 minutes the avoid getting a dishonnerd buff.

U can’t fix afk problem with pre-filter maps. Because people goes afk for many reasons, map is sure one of the problem (expecially skyhammer) but party composition is another problem, if they sux a lot in the first x min, people stop to play etc.

So if u add a pre-filter map system you only add more minutes to queue and u don’t solve the afk problem. And a pre-filter map complicates a lot mmr party composition, if you play in a top of the leaderboard (top100), many many times u are matched with people out of the ladder or with a mmr incredibly lower than yours, simply because there is no people in that moment with similar mmr to play your match. So if you add a pre-filter map, you spread population (=worst party composition) and u add more minutes to queue.

A map vote system is the best compromise atm, better than random maps and better then a pre-filter maps.

Just to throw my vote in here… I want a map vote system. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don’t need (or want) any sort of filtering system. I don’t care what you do with people who don’t vote or don’t want to vote. I don’t care what you do with people who never get to play their treasured Skyhammer again. I don’t care how you determine which map is chosen in the event of a tie.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Summary so far:

• Pre-match filters will increase queue times.
• Voting per-match does not increase queue time.
• Add some amount of randomness.
• Avoid chances of encountering non-stop cheese builds.

Cheese builds exist in this game. However I am against cheese builds (not to be mistaken for meta builds), I do not think that the solo/team queue is the place to address these players.

What (in my humble opinion) would be an awesome feature is that class stacking is reduced. You have these matches where you’re stuck with 3 or 4 of the same classes. Generally this doesn’t lead to very good results and I think it isn’t too hard to prevent.

Two of the same classes isn’t a problem, in some cases that can only be really good. But from 3 and on wards (and yes, it doesn’t happen very often but it’s not even close to rare either) is where the problems start arising.

Teutos.8620:

No, just delete Skyhammer, nobody wants it!

Everybody who generalizes is wrong. Oh wait.

Evan Lesh.3295:

What if you don’t care what map you play on in a vote system? Should there be a ‘pass’ or ‘vote random’?

What about the case where some people legitimately want to play on less popular maps? Would they ever get to play their favorite map?

This would be a system that provides good metrics.

Skyhammer does not have any more uneven matches than other maps last time we checked.

Where does this data come from? If it’s just from solo Q then why would it be any different it’s in the rotation. It’s blatantly obvious from anyone playing HJ that as soon as this map comes up, nearly everyone switches to a different lobby.

Why not make it randomise two maps for you to vote on, similar to many fps games?

No it is a pre-queue filter, getting to thumbs down a single map. It might make your queue longer sometimes. If that’s a problem, don’t veto a map. If the majority of people veto the same map, it will have little to no impact on queues.

could backfire, you could have all maps flagged as “i want to play” but when you get in the map its full of people with builds catered to that particular map.

for instance, anyone with every map flagged for play would have an even worse time on skyhammer than they already do now, since fewer players and more trolls will be there.

i know i’d only ever play temple and foefire on my eagle eye ranger and spend all evening sniping XD

also this:

Skyhammer does not have any more uneven matches than other maps last time we checked.

is simply false.

in hotjoin the majority of us will leave the server if skyhammer comes up.
in ranked matches we are forced to simply AFK because we can’t leave.

though i appreciate actually seeing a dev mention skyhammer,
before now i always assumed you just ignored the mountains of negative critisicm.

As a fan of skyhammer this feature would make me sad ;_;

Darnis.4056:

As a fan of skyhammer this feature would make me sad ;_;

Giving people a choice makes you sad?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Darnis.4056:

As a fan of skyhammer this feature would make me sad ;_;

Thank you for responding, as this is a very real case we would have to handle. What would make this feature work for you?

Here is the thing, there is literally very few ways to make everybody happy with respect to skyhammer short of either redesigning skyhammer or removing it from soloQ. The is no in between those two options.

Reading your post it seems you are stuck in trying to please the people that like skyhammer and those who don’t and you shouldn’t. The design of this system should not be predicated on one very specific and controversial map. i am not a designer, but I like to think that creating a new system and implementing it will probably require far more work than simply redesigning skyhammer to make it less terrible.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Darnis.4056:

As a fan of skyhammer this feature would make me sad ;_;

Thank you for responding, as this is a very real case we would have to handle. What would make this feature work for you?

This case is already being handled currently, and it’s biased. Do you think that skyhammer should be a competitive map given ALL the other map types? IMO, no.

Whoever made the final decision for teamQ maps already knows that it’s not fitted for teamQ. So why is it ok for soloQ? The only difference should be you are not in a team.

If someone considers the fact that you are not on a team makes it less competitive so it’s ok to add non-competitive maps to soloQ, then why add ranking to soloQ if you are already adding non-competitive variables to soloQ?

Having a leaderboard normally means that the game mode is intended to be competitive and balanced. We have loads of other balance issues right now, but one issue that is not common for both soloQ and teamQ is map rotations.

However, if you consider soloQ just as competitive as teamQ, then why not add skyhammer and spirit watch to teamQ?

Hopefully the answers to these questions will incept the inconsistencies I am trying to portray.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Darnis.4056:

As a fan of skyhammer this feature would make me sad ;_;

Thank you for responding, as this is a very real case we would have to handle. What would make this feature work for you?

As I said before, even if only 30% of the playerbase votes for skyhammer, it will still come up regularly. It’s as simple as getting a random match in which 6/10 players come from the 30%. As I stated, that’s about the same probability of getting a match with 6 medium armor professions in it, which happens all the time.

However, I’d again caution that 30% is a very low approval number. That number could easily drop lower after a vote system is introduced, because skyhammer matches would now likely include 6+ skyhammer-specialized builds (usually a mix of survivability, pulls, and stealth). Even skyhammer lovers are likely to reconsider in that situation.

Also, I’m sure someone has said it already but the best way to make sure more people have matches with the filter system is to have the number of “omit selections” to only 1 selection.

Ideally, most people would just hate one map (cough skyhammer). So just have only 1 map you can choose to omit, then at least you’ll have at least 5 maps to match for each player. More intersections = more matches.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Also, I’m sure someone has said it already but the best way to make sure more people have matches with the filter system is to have the number of “omit selections” to only 1 selection.

Ideally, most people would just hate one map (cough skyhammer). So just have only 1 map you can choose to omit, then at least you’ll have at least 5 maps to match for each player. More intersections = more matches.

I believe WoW has this feature for Battlegrounds, where you can pick two that you don’t want to play.

This would definitely work… it’s just a question of whether or not Arenanet has the developers left to implement even such a miserably small change like this into the game.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Summary so far:

• Pre-match filters will increase queue times.
• Voting per-match does not increase queue time.
• Add some amount of randomness.
• Avoid chances of encountering non-stop cheese builds.

I think the problem is that some maps grant definite benefits for some classes/builds over others.

Honestly, for that matter, point captures favor some over others anyway. Try playing, for example, a mesmer, or a thief, trying to cap a point against a hambow, engineer, or fear spamming necro? It’s kitten ed hard, and the non-crowd control player with little stability available has a MUCH harder time than those that happen to have both spammable crowd control AND better access to stability.

I think, honestly, that the point capture should be revised. For example… make the capture points FAR larger than they are, or just get rid of them for some other objectives instead. Kill targets, destroy doors, find the “widget” that’s randomly placed somewhere in the midregion.

As it stands, point capture favors some builds over others, and thus favors some classes over others. Some maps mitigate that to a degree, while others exaggerate it.

infantrydivEU.9670:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Also, I’m sure someone has said it already but the best way to make sure more people have matches with the filter system is to have the number of “omit selections” to only 1 selection.

Ideally, most people would just hate one map (cough skyhammer). So just have only 1 map you can choose to omit, then at least you’ll have at least 5 maps to match for each player. More intersections = more matches.

I believe WoW has this feature for Battlegrounds, where you can pick two that you don’t want to play.

This would definitely work… it’s just a question of whether or not Arenanet has the developers left to implement even such a miserably small change like this into the game.

That’s rather silly to say. You happen to notice the living world/living story stuff? They are still implementing them, hence, they have developers. Perhaps you noticed the april 15th changes too.

It’s a matter of priorities.

Hey I know, instead of people falling to their death in skyhammer, have them insta-respawn, or maybe have them land on another landing they have to work back up from. It would make the irritation of falling far less irritating. And it would make the launchknockbackpull builds consider between resetting them at the wp for a short delay while they run back, and get no points for it, or try and kill them for a longer respawn and the points.

I guess what I mean is, actually, I LOVE skyhammer in that it’s a very interesting layout and unique design – but it favors some to a very high degree over others, and that’s not as fun.

As a mesmer, I find I need to take GS and offhand focus to be competitive in skyhammer. I found a build I enjoy using those weapons anyway on the other maps too, so it’s ok, but it is kinda irritating.

Morfedel.4165:

infantrydivEU.9670:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Also, I’m sure someone has said it already but the best way to make sure more people have matches with the filter system is to have the number of “omit selections” to only 1 selection.

Ideally, most people would just hate one map (cough skyhammer). So just have only 1 map you can choose to omit, then at least you’ll have at least 5 maps to match for each player. More intersections = more matches.

I believe WoW has this feature for Battlegrounds, where you can pick two that you don’t want to play.

This would definitely work… it’s just a question of whether or not Arenanet has the developers left to implement even such a miserably small change like this into the game.

That’s rather silly to say. You happen to notice the living world/living story stuff? They are still implementing them, hence, they have developers. Perhaps you noticed the april 15th changes too.

It’s a matter of priorities.

Yeah, exactly, what’s left of their development team is busy laying a breadcrumb trail for PvErs. Is that why we can’t have miserably small, desperately needed QoL changes like this?

And yeah, I noticed the dysfunctional traits and the new $$$$$ wardrobe system, thanks for pointing that out.

Morfedel.4165:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Summary so far:

• Pre-match filters will increase queue times.
• Voting per-match does not increase queue time.
• Add some amount of randomness.
• Avoid chances of encountering non-stop cheese builds.

I think the problem is that some maps grant definite benefits for some classes/builds over others.

Honestly, for that matter, point captures favor some over others anyway. Try playing, for example, a mesmer, or a thief, trying to cap a point against a hambow, engineer, or fear spamming necro? It’s kitten ed hard, and the non-crowd control player with little stability available has a MUCH harder time than those that happen to have both spammable crowd control AND better access to stability.

I think, honestly, that the point capture should be revised. For example… make the capture points FAR larger than they are, or just get rid of them for some other objectives instead. Kill targets, destroy doors, find the “widget” that’s randomly placed somewhere in the midregion.

As it stands, point capture favors some builds over others, and thus favors some classes over others. Some maps mitigate that to a degree, while others exaggerate it.

This is certainly a viable problem, however, I don’t think that the solution is to integrally change or remove the game mode we already have. There have been talk of new game modes, and it’s crucial that when new game modes are implemented, they move the advantages around, so that a team that is stacked in domination, might not necessarily do amazing in the new game mode.

infantrydivEU.9670:

Morfedel.4165:

infantrydivEU.9670:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Also, I’m sure someone has said it already but the best way to make sure more people have matches with the filter system is to have the number of “omit selections” to only 1 selection.

Ideally, most people would just hate one map (cough skyhammer). So just have only 1 map you can choose to omit, then at least you’ll have at least 5 maps to match for each player. More intersections = more matches.

I believe WoW has this feature for Battlegrounds, where you can pick two that you don’t want to play.

This would definitely work… it’s just a question of whether or not Arenanet has the developers left to implement even such a miserably small change like this into the game.

That’s rather silly to say. You happen to notice the living world/living story stuff? They are still implementing them, hence, they have developers. Perhaps you noticed the april 15th changes too.

It’s a matter of priorities.

Yeah, exactly, what’s left of their development team is busy laying a breadcrumb trail for PvErs. Is that why we can’t have miserably small, desperately needed QoL changes like this?

And yeah, I noticed the dysfunctional traits and the new $$$$$ wardrobe system, thanks for pointing that out.

Why shouldn’t there at it’s peak, PvP wasn’t even making a fraction of the money PvE is making.

Let’s keep it on topic guys. The main point of this thread is that a lot of people would like a way to have some say in the maps they play on, specifically most don’t want to have to play on skyhammer. There are at least 1-2 people in this thread who like skyhammer, but I think that even with a vote system it would still come up often enough for them.

Skyhammer would still come up as outlined by NevirSayDie. It doesn’t eliminate the map, just allows people who like it to play it with other people who like it, which is the best option since some people hate it so badly they just quit or AFK.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Skyhammer is only an example of a map that some people have vocalized that they like less than others. There will always be maps that people like more and less than others. What I’m trying to get from you guys is to think of how a map voting system could work with regards to all player preferences. How could we ensure that players can always get chances to play their favorite maps?

Randomly have 2 or 3 maps as options and vote between them. Works well in FPS games and keeps all the maps alive.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Darnis.4056:

As a fan of skyhammer this feature would make me sad ;_;

Thank you for responding, as this is a very real case we would have to handle. What would make this feature work for you?

I actually haven’t got a clue I can only say for certain Map Voting will effectively remove skyhammer from the Soloque Rotation.

Unless You force Skyhammer Pops or tip the scales of the voting system.
Maybe Only give people a certain amount of votes per day, and those votes are used up when they recieve the map they want.

All solutions I can think of would be needlessly complicated and superflous
Wouldn’t it be easier to just remove skyhammer from soloque instead of spending 1000s of man hours on a feature which exists specifically for the purpose of creating a false choice?

The system now is fair, Adding a vote system to Soloque will have unintended consequences, the build wars will intensify with people only Voting for the map which their class has a considerable advantage in. (In the end you would get super saturated games like 5 guards on foefire)

Adding a vote system to Team que would be a mistake I’m HOPING it’s not even on the table. I can see the troll guilds now;

No Items Guards Only[FOE]
We PVE[CHIEF]
Masters of Khylo[TREB]
Buffs’R’Us[TMPL]

Evan Lesh.3295:

Skyhammer is only an example of a map that some people have vocalized that they like less than others. There will always be maps that people like more and less than others. What I’m trying to get from you guys is to think of how a map voting system could work with regards to all player preferences. How could we ensure that players can always get chances to play their favorite maps?

Evan if more than 50% of people don’t want to play a map every time it comes up, they shouldn’t be forced to play it. It’s more unfair than preventing a minority from playing it competitively.

From those of us that play solo regularly, only a small portion would say it doesn’t ruin their experience. I used to like it too, but the lack of balance/repetitive mechanics/over dependence on key roles in solo q turns almost everyone off it eventually.

Maybe make it a periodic weekend queue, with its own ranking or end of weekend title?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Skyhammer is only an example of a map that some people have vocalized that they like less than others. There will always be maps that people like more and less than others. What I’m trying to get from you guys is to think of how a map voting system could work with regards to all player preferences. How could we ensure that players can always get chances to play their favorite maps?

Get real. These forums have been filled with Skyhammer complaints since you released the map. In fact, it’s probably one of the most complained about things on these entire forums, and that’s saying something. Do you see multiple complaints about Foefire, or TotSS or Khylo every day? NO.

How about you take all the people who like Skyhammer and then send them to their own private server where they can instagib each other all day long?

infantrydivEU.9670:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Skyhammer is only an example of a map that some people have vocalized that they like less than others. There will always be maps that people like more and less than others. What I’m trying to get from you guys is to think of how a map voting system could work with regards to all player preferences. How could we ensure that players can always get chances to play their favorite maps?

Get real. These forums have been filled with Skyhammer complaints since you released the map. In fact, it’s probably one of the most complained about things on these entire forums, and that’s saying something. Do you see multiple complaints about Foefire, or TotSS or Khylo every day? NO.

How about you take all the people who like Skyhammer and then send them to their own private server where they can instagib each other all day long?

Two Words.

Spirit Watch.

When They came for Raid on capricon, I said nothing because I don’t play hotjoin.
When They came for Skyhammer, I said nothing because I am not a mesmer
When They came for Spiritwatch, I said nothing because I am not a ranger.
When They came for Foefire, I said nothing because I am not a guardian.
When They came for Nifhel, I said nothing because I am not a thief.
When They came for Khylo, there was no one left to protect my ESports.

(HYPERBOLE INTENSIFIES)

Evan Lesh.3295:

Skyhammer is only an example of a map that some people have vocalized that they like less than others. There will always be maps that people like more and less than others. What I’m trying to get from you guys is to think of how a map voting system could work with regards to all player preferences. How could we ensure that players can always get chances to play their favorite maps?

It’s not that hard at all to come up with a fair voting system. Just give people an option to deselect one or two maps. People will play their favorite maps with people who also enjoy the same maps that way.

If they want 100% chance to play their favorite map: play hotjoin.

Darnis.4056:

I actually haven’t got a clue I can only say for certain Map Voting will effectively remove skyhammer from the Soloque Rotation.

Why do you feel that would happen? Given a 30% chance that any player would choose skyhammer, and a 100% chance that you would, I believe your chances of getting skyhammer would look like this:

1. Two map options offered on queue pop: a little under 10%
2. Three map options offered on queue pop, players vote for favorite map: a little over 10%
3. Three map options offered on queue pop, players vote against one map: well under 5%

I’d say the best solution is to offer three maps and have the voting be for the map you want to play, not the one you don’t like. That way, it’s more likely that skyhammer will be one of the options when 6/10 players are in the queue who like skyhammer. If voting is veto style, it’s far more likely that skyhammer will get 4 vetos and the other maps will only get 2 or 3, even if 6/10 players like skyhammer.

If only two maps are offered, it’s less likely that skyhammer will be an option when 6/10 skyhammer players are in a queue.

Given that the current chance of skyhammer popping is 1/6, I think that you’d still see skyhammer pop nearly the same as it does now, maybe about 1/9 times instead of 1/6.

Players that hate skyhammer would see it much less often than that, because they’d vote against it and would only see skyhammer come up if at least 5/9 players voted from the 30%. If my statistics are right, that’s a huge difference.

tl;dr three-option, vote for favorite style would allow people who like skyhammer to see it pop at a similar frequency as it does now, about 1/9. Players who dislike skyhammer would see it much less frequently, about 1/16.

Evan Lesh.3295:

a t s e.9614:

Evan , so the filter can’t be implemented because of Q times? Because if there’s a vote system it still not the player choice but the majority.. And those who love skyhammer will never get that map basically.

Filters will always impact queue times, which is very undesirable. We should avoid anything that increases queue times or effectively create more queues.

You’re recognizing the problem with majority voting, but there are ways around it. Specifically balancing randomness with player voting. A few people have mentioned having random vote options, which sounds good. It makes it so the most popular choices aren’t always available. The remaining question is: How often would the least popular map (by any amount) actually get played?

Also, please do not focus your feedback specifically on Skyhammer and why you don’t like it. There we always be a least popular map and we should take that into consideration.

You are going about it the wrong way. For any competitive game, you don’t force a map to be played. Players choice usually reflect what maps are the most balanced and games and/or tournaments adjust accordingly.

Evan Lesh.3295:

a t s e.9614:

Evan , so the filter can’t be implemented because of Q times? Because if there’s a vote system it still not the player choice but the majority.. And those who love skyhammer will never get that map basically.

Filters will always impact queue times, which is very undesirable. We should avoid anything that increases queue times or effectively create more queues.

You’re recognizing the problem with majority voting, but there are ways around it. Specifically balancing randomness with player voting. A few people have mentioned having random vote options, which sounds good. It makes it so the most popular choices aren’t always available. The remaining question is: How often would the least popular map (by any amount) actually get played?

Also, please do not focus your feedback specifically on Skyhammer and why you don’t like it. There we always be a least popular map and we should take that into consideration.

This is a video game debate, not a human rights debate.

The idea of needing to defend a minority is very valid in a democracy. If minority rights are not protected in a democracy, it results in the tyranny of the majority over the minority.

The idea of needing to defend a minority in a video game is silly and bad business policy. As with any product you should aim to please the most people possible. Your modus operandi should be to create the best experience for the broadest group of customers as possible. Right now your game forces a large majority of people to play a map they don’t want to very frequently.

The easiest fix would be to simply have a 3 vote option, where players are given a choice to play on a RNG selection of two maps, or vote for a ‘random map’ if they don’t like either of the maps suggested by the game.

Sure, Skyhammer wouldn’t be chosen very often, and that’s precisely because most people don’t like it.

Once Skyhammer started becoming a very infrequently seen map, the troll builds used to exploit its bad mechanics would also start to be forgotten, and people might start having a less negative attitude toward in it, making it actually become more popular.

Evan Lesh.3295:

The remaining question is: How often would the least popular map (by any amount) actually get played?

Remember, it’s not about simply how often the map comes up. It’s about how often the map comes up for people who like it. Given that players who really like it are a 100% vote for skyhammer, their chances of seeing it would be almost double that of a player who has a 0% chance to vote for it.

So with a three-map, vote-for-favorite system, skyhammer would likely only come up 1/14 times overall. But it would come up 1/9 times for people who vote for it.

In my opinion, the problem with maps like Skyhammer is that they are placed in the wrong place – Skyhammer is a very fun casual map that is absolutely frustrating to play in a competitive environment.

This problem is not solved with map choosing mechanics nor with statistics. It’s solved with whatever anet’s principles to make GW2 an esport are, and how far they want to promote solo queue as a competitive mode or not. By principles, I mean concepts like counterplay, which are very important in a competitive game (even league of legends had one blog post about that the last week), while Skyhammer promotes silly playstyles that are fun only in a non-competitive context.

What effects would a choose-the-map system have on Skyhammer? It would mean that the map would be voted – I assume – as much as any other map within the context of low-ranked solo queue, and in any unranked queue that anet might add in the future. However, no one would vote for it in high ranked queue, except by players with the right profession to abuse the map and the anti-counterplaying, anti-competitive one hit kills it promotes.

Which would then create new potential for abuse: What if team A had 3 out of 5 players that could abuse that map, while team B would have, say, 1 out of 5 builds that could abuse it? Four votes would go straight into Skyhammer, and the chances to play that map (even if only from a random tie result) would automatically put team A at an advantage. If players could see their party setup before voting, it would be even worse – the team with the best skyhammer setup would automatically force a tie – at the very minimum, and if the map was picked, antecipate a victory before the match even starts. And if players had to choose between three maps, even worse: based on my example, with 4 votes straight to skyhammer, and assuming other maps would get an equal spread of the remaining votes (3 for each), the team that could abuse skyhammer could push hard for it to be picked.

I know this discussion in not only about Skyhammer, but the best way to fix that map is to put it where it belongs: custom arenas. At the very least, until (and if) an unraked queue is implemented. It’s a very fun map when not taken seriously, but totally broken when played competitively. It’s an excellent casual map, probably one of the best this game has to offer, but a terrible competitive map.

We have to assume that, when a player joins a ranked queue, they are in for the competition, and they are willing to only play the maps that are fair. Of course, in GW2, with the lack of an unranked queue, the only alternative to ranked is hotjoin, which is a completely different beast, so I can understand the system is incomplete as it is now, and players who want to avoid hotjoin but want to enjoy Skyhammer do not have any choice but to go play ranked.

infantrydivEU.9670:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Also, I’m sure someone has said it already but the best way to make sure more people have matches with the filter system is to have the number of “omit selections” to only 1 selection.

Ideally, most people would just hate one map (cough skyhammer). So just have only 1 map you can choose to omit, then at least you’ll have at least 5 maps to match for each player. More intersections = more matches.

I believe WoW has this feature for Battlegrounds, where you can pick two that you don’t want to play.

WoW does have that. And, it’s extremely well done. You can choose 2 maps to ban before queing. To counter the effect on que times that may have, those who que for a random map, without banning anything, are incentivized: more progression, loot and money from the match.

I think that’s a crucial feature to have in implementing a system like this. Most players have map preferences and a small minority does not. That system serves the wishes of both demographics.

Although I don’t think that’s unique to WoW. I believe Wildstar has something similar. And, probably, many others…

Evan Lesh.3295:

In a vote system, do you think people would vote for the already most-picked map to not ‘throw away’ their vote?

Yes, but this would likely happen anyway. Less experienced or more casual PvPers will pick maps regardless of actual design or balance, which is to be expected and is not a bad thing.

If they are the type of person who avoids conflict and conforms to others’ desires (not player, because it’s just a personality trait in general that allows one to be submissive or non-combative), then they will use their vote to increase the vote count on the most popular map at the time. They may also save their vote until last to ensure their vote has as minimal an impact as possible. Again, this is a personality trait, which no area of game design could seek to circumvent or improve. There is an established difference between a player trait and a personality trait. Sure, they frequently share relationships, but they are influenced by different elements – the difference between design vs. genetics.

If Arenanet designs a vote system in the future, I feel it’s important to isolate the difference of factor that affect this system. Style of play, build optimization by map, and secondary mechanics are much different than dominating or submissive personalities which influence a person’s play and their choices.

Evan Lesh.3295:

• In-match vote on RNG selection
  * Pro: Every map gets love, but you play on ones you like more often
  * Con: You will sometimes play on maps you don’t like

In a vote system, do you think people would vote for the already most-picked map to not ‘throw away’ their vote?

Like you said they will always be a map players don’t like, so as long as the players get to choose the less terrible map it wont be as bad as the current system where we have no choice. I think in this case the option of choosing the less terrible map is significantly better than playing on the terrible map.

So at the start of the match, the game will randomly pick two maps and the players vote on it. In other to prevent any bias, it might be better to not show the number of players voting until after the voting is over. Players will be more honest if they are not swayed by outside appearances.

If you want to make people more happier you could always add an option where players can leave and have the whole thing restart in order to minimize unbalanced teams.

I plugged the values we have into
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

And the results were favorable(20% Skyhammer will happen)

Unfortunately I don’t think 33% of the population will vote skyhammer 100% of the time to uphold these results.

Sociology has thoroughly proven that people will vote for whatever everyone else is voting for; If you show the results..

I’m leaning toward a Weighted system with More RNG rather then a direct democracy (For this particular feature)

Most likely its the skyhammer lovers who will throw away their votes as they are in the minority.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Also, please do not focus your feedback specifically on Skyhammer and why you don’t like it. There we always be a least popular map and we should take that into consideration.

Evan, I don’t think the issue is that people don’t LIKE Skyhammer, merely that its mechanics can be easily exploited by certain builds. I personally think pre-match voting is a cool idea, but won’t the ability to influence map choice make people specifically BUILD for certain maps, not because they like them but because they know they can get an easy win by exploiting their mechanics (eg. knockbacks on Skyhammer)?

I think that if voting should be introduced, it should be restricted to hotjoin, not tournaments. Possibly solo queue too, but I would say not even there. Abolutely not team queue! If it’s introduced in Team Queue, it would encourage teams speccing to win ONLY ONE MAP by choosing builds that exploit its mechanics, and then getting that map most of the time by all voting together to change it. I’m gonna use the example of a team made up of knockback engis, hammer guardians, hambows, and fear necros all voting Skyhammer on every single match, but insert your favourite cheesy team comp+map they can exploit combo here (though, honestly, you’d struggle to find another map that’s as exploitable…). They would easily win the vote in most games they play, as they would only need 1 opponent to abstain or just not load into the game in time to vote for them to have the majority.

As for the “special” hate some have against Skyhammer: the map’s fans might disagree with me saying such team comps would be “exploiting” the map mechanics. I agree that utilising the terrain and secondary mechanics IS A legit part of the game, and not an exploit. However, there’s a difference between someone swapping in an extra speed boost on Foefire because the map is so much bigger, or some extra aoe skill on Niflhel because Keep is so cramped, and building an entire team around a mechanic that basically allows them to instagib any opponent on any point on the map. It’s just too much. It’s ALREADY too much even with the random matchups in solo queue – if sync-joiners were able to build for it and force Skyhammer on people through voting, it would just be /ragequit for any team they faced!

Evan Lesh.3295:

Skyhammer does not have any more uneven matches than other maps last time we checked.

I’m curious what you mean by “uneven”. Are you checking per team? Per account? Per character? Are you telling me that a top-1000 player who mains a knockback engi does not have a higher win ratio on Skyhammer than on other maps? Remember, on a per character basis, not per account.

Odd concern but a real one.

The maps have far different “completion” times. By that I mean, some matches simply take longer to complete based on the map.

If you move to a “pick the map” meta, will we start to see everyone picking the map that is the fastest to play?