Guild Wars 2

In my short carrier in PvP I have noticed that it’s pretty hard to comeback from a “lost game”. 95% of the time if your team is at 0 – 100 you have already lost basically.

Now you could go and say, that’s fine, why is it a problem if the better team is winning? And you are right, it’s not a problem, that is how it should be, but I’ve found that making a comeback in GW2 PvP is almost impossible. Now the best games I’ve played (in other games) were those were the tides constanty turned, making it intense. Most games do that by somehow arteficially increasing the odds of the losing team. This is done right via rewarding skilled, coordinated play, while not taking anything away from the “winning” team.
In GW2 we have none of that, au contraire the winning team gets the upper hand.

Let me explain through examples of what I am talking about:
- When a team has all 3 capture points, you can just “camp” the enemy spawn, preventing them frm retaking the capture points
- The winning team has easier access to the special objectives on the map (beast, lord, etc.)
- Getting the first kill in Courtyard decides the outcome of the match 80% of the time (because they are left with 4 and can never regroup properly)

How this is implemented in other games:
- In LoL when someone is on a ‘killing spree’ he gets a bounty on his head, taking him down is worth more than just taking out another player
- In LoL the more you die, the less you are worth
- In LoL you get bonus movement speed (with the right item)and an extra base exit in your home base
- In Team Fortress 2 point cap mode the losing team gets an upper hand by the last capture point being right next to spawn
- In Team Fortress 2 Payload mode the last part of the Cart rail sets you back (cart rolls backwards) if you do not push the Cart
- In LOTR-TBFMEII-TROTWK (yes, that’s a game, an RTS game) your ‘base’ fires arrows automatically, whitout any upgrade

Why would GW2 PvP want any of this?
- Well, it would basicly be an autobalance mechanism, so even the lesser teams would get a better chance at winning with smart play
- Would make for more ‘exciting’ matches
- Would require more strategy

Ideas on what could be implemented:
- Extra points for kills if someone is on a rampage
- Fewer points for kills is someone is dying a lot and not killing/assisting
- Quicker respawn for the team that is being beaten by at least 150 points
- Dunno

0-100 is definitely not a lost game unless you already gave up. many games have been won while down way more than 100 points. dont need comeback opportunities, need a better attitude.

Sometimes you need the first (team-)fight to develop a good strategy against the enemy team and by the point you have one, you easily can be behind 100 points or more, but then come back fast.

Not saying you don’t have a point, but I don’t think a comebackfeature is needed. Most times waiting for your teammates to spawn and regrouping is enough to get a next chance.
Situations where a comebackfeature would change the outcome of a game would be rare I think.

@oneply:
That’s not really saying much. Yes, games have been won from 0-300 as well, it is possible, just like winning the lottery is. My suggestion is about the winning team not getting the upper hand as they are now, but instead let the losing team get a better chance at coming back, arteficially.

@Dwaynas Avatar:
I can see why people would think it is not needed, and it is true, it is not needed at all. It would just make for a bit more colorful play I think. Even if it improves the comeback rate by 5-10% that’s fair, in no way I would like the ‘better team’ to lose.

It is possible to turn the tide in Foefire and Silent temple if you outplay them.
Rush lord when it hits 350, capture mid and bottom at the timer, etc.
But mostly if you fall behind, it means your team sucks.
So it’s natural that the sucker team not be able to come back, otherwise it doesn’t make any sense does it?

Bubi.7942:

Let me explain through examples of what I am talking about:
- When a team has all 3 capture points, you can just “camp” the enemy spawn, preventing them frm retaking the capture points
- The winning team has easier access to the special objectives on the map (beast, lord, etc.)
- Getting the first kill in Courtyard decides the outcome of the match 80% of the time (because they are left with 4 and can never regroup properly)

I’m far from a experienced PvP-er myself.
The camp issue:
Just wait a bit till all your players are dead, regroup inside your base and push out.

Winning team special objectives:
They’re the better team…

First kill courtyard:
I’ve seen many games which turned on the winner, due to they pressing their spawn and enemy regrouped and slaughtered them.

Also, many maps have multiple base exits.
I don’t see how any bounty etc will fix your issues, as this game is 90% Conquest.
We’re capping points, killing players is to prevent point caps or defending.

Putting the focus on killing players will ruin the Conquest mode imho.

Hm, I’ll try a different approach.

I’m currently 30 or 40 something-ish rank (at the end of Wolf). My best leaderboard ranking was 980 something, but I am usually in the 93-95% area. I use my own homebrew builds, don’t care about the meta. I would say I am decent.

Still, I dislike PvP in GW2. I was a thinking a lot about this, why I don’t like it. I usually do my dailes now that they are in the daily rotation for the rewards, always in ranked, sometimes I play unranked with friends. So I was thinking, I am generally a PvP type guy in all games, but not in this one. Why? What is different here?

I have identified many reasons, and one of them, was the lack of automated comeback mechanics that I was used to in other games I have played. Does this makes them warranted to be in this game? No, certainly not, but it is one of the reasons I could not really get into GW2 PvP.

When I finish a PvP match, win or lose, it is very rare that I say: ‘man, this was a fun game’, mostly it’s ‘meh, it’s over’. And I do think that has to do with the matches not really turning around as much as in other games.

With a real life analogy I could say, what I want to see is:
There are 2 marathon runners. Whoever is leading, gets 10 refreshment points (stations where you can drink), the one who is behind gets 12.

Is that unfair? Yes.
Does it make the marathon more exciting? I think: yes.

Bubi.7942:

With a real life analogy I could say, what I want to see is:
There are 2 marathon runners. Whoever is leading, gets 10 refreshment points (stations where you can drink), the one who is behind gets 12.

Is that unfair? Yes.
Does it make the marathon more exciting? I think: yes.

I’d like you to suggest this to some Marathon organisation…

Aomine.5012:

It is possible to turn the tide in Foefire and Silent temple if you outplay them.
Rush lord when it hits 350, capture mid and bottom at the timer, etc.
But mostly if you fall behind, it means your team sucks.
So it’s natural that the sucker team not be able to come back, otherwise it doesn’t make any sense does it?

Because of eSportz.
In other words: it’s boring to watch if there is small comeback potential.

@Guardian of Angels:
The difference being, that is a sports event, and this is a game for entertainment.

Edit:
@Morwath
And more boring to play as well.

Bubi.7942:

@Guardian of Angels:
The difference being, that is a sports event, and this is a game for entertainment.

Then why even bring up this argument in a game?

Let’s not add these comeback thingies, let’s focus on matchmaking and improve that where possible <3

Guardian of Angels.9867:

Bubi.7942:

@Guardian of Angels:
The difference being, that is a sports event, and this is a game for entertainment.

Then why even bring up this argument in a game?

Let’s not add these comeback thingies, let’s focus on matchmaking and improve that where possible <3

Well I already brought up examples in my original post of (very successful) games.

Bubi.7942:

Guardian of Angels.9867:

Bubi.7942:

@Guardian of Angels:
The difference being, that is a sports event, and this is a game for entertainment.

Then why even bring up this argument in a game?

Let’s not add these comeback thingies, let’s focus on matchmaking and improve that where possible <3

Well I already brought up examples in my original post of (very successful) games.

LoL: RTS
TF2: FPS
LOTR-TBFMEII-TROTWK: RTS

GW2: MMORPG

You’ve got any examples how other MMORPG handles these things?

Guardian of Angels.9867:

Bubi.7942:

Guardian of Angels.9867:

Bubi.7942:

@Guardian of Angels:
The difference being, that is a sports event, and this is a game for entertainment.

Then why even bring up this argument in a game?

Let’s not add these comeback thingies, let’s focus on matchmaking and improve that where possible <3

Well I already brought up examples in my original post of (very successful) games.

LoL: RTS
TF2: FPS
LOTR-TBFMEII-TROTWK: RTS

GW2: MMORPG

You’ve got any examples how other MMORPG handles these things?

GW2 isn’t MMORPG in terms of PvP and many PvP players doesn’t give a kitten about it’s MMORPG aspects…

Nope. I have never played an MMO PvP before (I’m not kidding).

People say GW2 PvP is one of the best, which for me was… shocking.

Bubi.7942:

Nope. I have never played an MMO PvP before (I’m not kidding).

People say GW2 PvP is one of the best, which for me was… shocking.

Maybe you just don’t like the genre? I don’t like RTS :P
Things happen.

Yes, I have said above that I dislike the GW2 PvP (I do like WvW) section, for many reasons, this being one of them.

Morwath.9817:

Guardian of Angels.9867:

Bubi.7942:

Guardian of Angels.9867:

Bubi.7942:

@Guardian of Angels:
The difference being, that is a sports event, and this is a game for entertainment.

Then why even bring up this argument in a game?

Let’s not add these comeback thingies, let’s focus on matchmaking and improve that where possible <3

Well I already brought up examples in my original post of (very successful) games.

LoL: RTS
TF2: FPS
LOTR-TBFMEII-TROTWK: RTS

GW2: MMORPG

You’ve got any examples how other MMORPG handles these things?

GW2 isn’t MMORPG in terms of PvP and many PvP players doesn’t give a kitten about it’s MMORPG aspects…

in a MMORPG PvP is a MOBA
the core of the game is the same, the only difference from a typical MOBA is that you build your character from the ground up instead of having one pre-designed for you. oh and you have a handful more skills.

so honestly comparing LoL, DOTA, Smite, etc are fair comparisons to PvP in a MMORPG.

You can still make a comeback if the spread is 0 and 100. It is anyone’s game until one team reaches 250. That’s when the losing team needs to shift the momentum or they will most likely lose.

If the scores are 250 against 1, the losing team can still make a comeback if (that’s a big IF) the losing team takes and maintains a two cap. If the scores are 300 against 101, the losing team can still make a comeback if the losing team takes and maintains a two cap. Finally, if the scores are 400 against 301, the losing team can still make a comeback if the losing team takes and maintains a two cap. These calculation bars any NPC and PC kills however.

If you’re playing a match, focus on two-capping before the 250 mark. If the other team reaches 250, you must try to get a two-cap and get an advantage.

I do a quick mental math on every match. If I’m in the winning team, I quickly calculate the difference of our team’s score with 500. So if my team is at 320, the difference is 180. Now, if the losing team has a score of 139 or less, our team can relax a bit with a one-cap Why? If the other team gets a two-cap, our team will still win by accumulating 180 points and the other team accumulating 360 points. The ending score will be 500 against 499. However, this is an extreme examples and does not account for NPC and PC kills.

Now, if I’m on the losing side, I do the same quick calculation. If the other team is at 400 and our team is at 275, it will be hard to make a comeback even if our team secures a two-cap (Other team accumulates 100 points; our team accumulates 200. 500 against 475). The only way to get the odds for us is to kill about 5 PCs or 2 NPCs or kill a Guild Lord.

In these situations, NPC or Point Buffs play a crucial role in comebacks. Battle of Kyhlo lacks these NPC or Point Buffs, and it’s a map that tests a team’s cohesion in terms of securing and holding a two-cap.

Anyway, I had posted this idea way back also: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/A-rule-of-thumb-on-comeback-chances/first#post4122552

Here’s a copy/paste of some score benchmarks:

If Red team has 300 points, Blue must have 101 points and a two-cap to have a chance to win the game.

If Red has 350, Blue must have 201 and a two-cap.

If Red has 400, Blue must have 301 and a two-cap.

Finally, if Red has 450, Blue must have 401 and a two-cap.

Come back opportunity. Decap.

My team was 350-150 ahead and due to bad plays, the enemy team made a comeback and we lost 425-500. So if you know what you’re doing, I think there’s plenty of counterplay to make a comeback.

also, comebacks are much easier if you have a team, especially one that is on TS. trying to ballance around your solo queue experince is a bad idea, as all high level play is with full teams and voice coms.

both jebro and BLU have great tournament matches on their youtube channels. however you are going to need decent class knowledge to get the most out of it, watching the games will also improve this greatly.