Guild Wars 2

Dear Arenanet,

In theory there are an enormous number of potential configurations of traits, runes, sigils, amulets, weapon sets etc for each class. It’s a veritable font of potential build diversity. Yet there are always a handful of “meta” builds that rise to the top for each class within each given balancing cycle. This phenomena can now be easily observed in pro league where quite frequently a large number of the teams end up running similar comps and similar builds despite the fact that no one is forcing them to.

At the end of each cycle, the “balance team” tries to find solutions to the balance issues at the time by nerfing things they think are too strong and buffing things they think are too weak. They do this while simultaneously trying to consider the implication of each change across three different game modes. Inevitably they fail to consider the implications of one or more of their changes when combined with some combination of trait, amulet, rune etc and the cycle begins anew. I’ve been watching this cycle for years now.

I believe that nerf and buff passes are an attempt to fix a symptom of the problem rather than attack the problem at its root. I believe the root of the problem is the inherent complexity of the system.

So I propose a radical solution: Make the system much much simpler

Get rid of swappable amulets and runes and sigils and weapon choices in pvp. Give us a set number (say 3 to 5) of pre-built configurations for each class. Give each preset build a preset trait, weapon, stat, sigil loadout and then just balance around those in pvp. This would get the number of builds down to 45 at most. Whenever a preset for a given class is under or overperforming you could look directly at that preset and attempt to actually fix it and not have to worry as much about the potential implication of each change across three game modes.

Build diversity is the natural foe of game balance. The more build choices players are given, the harder it is for you as developers to consider the implications of all those choices and balance them all against one another. Make the task of balancing easier for yourselves and I believe we as players will benefit by having a more balanced game.

Thanks for reading.

Ok This is not what gw2 is about. Let me explain. GW1 and GW2 allow customizable builds so players can experiment and find their own personal nich.

The problem. GW2 doesn’t have enough diversity to truely have many meta builds per class. I’m talking 5+ decent builds per class as was seen in GW1.

This fix you suggest is what they are doing right now. They are limiting players with each amulet they take away to slowly kill diversity. It is true we needed a sustain nerf but removing amulets is the wrong lazy way to do it. Eventually, if this continues, there will be only one or two anet/nerf directed meta build per class with no strange exception builds to try out like in GW1.

The core issue. They need to add at least 5 times the set of skills each class has to see the diversity of Guildwars 1 and balance from there. It is already bad enough that we have preset weapon slot skills.

Absolutely not. The current system allows players to make tweaks to fit their individual playstyle, even if most builds end up looking very similar. I’d not want to be forced into a situation where the game tells me: “Sorry, if you want to use this weapon you have to use ONLY these utilities. What? You find them boring? You’d rather have a bit more stability or personal condi clear? Too bad for you.”

True, in theory there are a tremendous number of potential combinations for A-net to worry about, but only a very small fraction of those are even viable- to say nothing of meta. A-net doesn’t have to worry about 99% of builds, just those handful at the very top and one or two from classes without any meta builds. They can do this without resorting to taking all options away from their players.

Onlysaneman.9612:

Absolutely not. The current system allows players to make tweaks to fit their individual playstyle, even if most builds end up looking very similar…..True, in theory there are a tremendous number of potential combinations for A-net to worry about, but only a very small fraction of those are even viable- to say nothing of meta. A-net doesn’t have to worry about 99% of builds, just those handful at the very top and one or two from classes without any meta builds. They can do this without resorting to taking all options away from their players.

This is precisely my point. There are, in theory, an enormous number of potential builds and configurations of all the different parts but in reality people only ever use a few at any given time. Anet only has to worry about perhaps 1% of possible builds because everything else sucks. You have the illusion of choice but if you want to take the game seriously to say nothing of actually competing you’re pretty much forced into certain things anyways. Why maintain the illusion of choice? I don’t personally find it that comforting to know that I could make some ridiculous revenant build just to be a special snowflake.

Onlysaneman.9612:

I’d not want to be forced into a situation where the game tells me: “Sorry, if you want to use this weapon you have to use ONLY these utilities. What? You find them boring? You’d rather have a bit more stability or personal condi clear? Too bad for you.”

But you kind of already are. You just don’t feel like you are. If Arenanet set the goal of say 5 presets per class and could just focus on that number then that’s 2 to 4 more builds than most classes have really had since launch in any given balance cycle. I’ve even seen balance cycles that were so skewed in favor of one thing that teams were taking 4 of the same build for the same class. They weren’t forced to do it but they did it anyways because that’s how skewed balance was at the time. There are now rules in place for tournaments that restrict each team from doing this but there are no such proscriptions in ranked play. And guess what? I see a lot of the exact same builds over and over every time I play ranked. Often times there are several of them on both teams.

I don’t think this will change any time soon. I could be wrong but I don’t think pulling a few amulets is going to make balancing things that much simpler for them. It’s a nice start but I believe it’s ultimately a half measure because the removal of one meta choice always paves the way for the next.

Zelulose.8695:

The problem. GW2 doesn’t have enough diversity to truely have many meta builds per class.

I actually think the problem is there’s too much diversity (read complexity) for them to really understand all the potential implications of their balance changes. It seems like they balance by focusing on what’s ‘meta’ at the time but they often neglect to consider how the changes they make will bring other things to the fore.

Zelulose.8695:

I’m talking 5+ decent builds per class as was seen in GW1.

That’s not something that they can really force with their current system. In order for them to be absolutely sure they’ve created 5 decent builds they have to really restrict player choice first. If they created 5 different set loadouts for each class (so 45 builds in total) and then playtested each iteration extensively they could then have a pretty good idea of where they ultimately stood before a release. Their current system is to implement changes and then use their live servers to test each balance iteration. As a result it doesn’t seem like they have a very good idea of what the meta builds will be before the players do.

Zelulose.8695:

This fix you suggest is what they are doing right now. They are limiting players with each amulet they take away to slowly kill diversity. It is true we needed a sustain nerf but removing amulets is the wrong lazy way to do it. Eventually, if this continues, there will be only one or two anet/nerf directed meta build per class with no strange exception builds to try out like in GW1.

It’s a very slow and limited version of what I’m suggesting but I think it’s a step in the right direction. Two good builds for each class would be fine with me if that’s the best they can do.

Zelulose.8695:

The core issue. They need to add at least 5 times the set of skills each class has to see the diversity of Guildwars 1 and balance from there. It is already bad enough that we have preset weapon slot skills.

No I think that would make things worse because that’s 5 times more skills that would have to be balanced against one another. Complexity and balance are like opposing forces.

Consider that the most balanced games are ones where everyone gets the exact same tools at the outset. No complexity, very simple to balance. The only thing that differentiates players is skill. This is the ideal situation is it not? Every element of choice that’s introduced makes the game slightly more complex and therefore more difficult to balance.

You don’t understand how balance works! It is not to make the game 100% fair for people who wiki copy builds. It is to prevent smart build creators from creating broken specs and distributing them to average players so they can easily kill players without skill.

Let me repeat. Balancing builds is not to make every single spec and every single build arrangement 100% fair Certain players find certain specs are stronger for their respective play style. What you suggest takes the creativity seen in GW1 and promised in GW2 out of the picture. If this happens you might as well play another MMORPG because the thing that set GW2 apart was build customization. With out that, you might as well play WoW.

Zelulose.8695:

Balancing builds is not to make every single spec and every single build arrangement 100% fair

I think that’s exactly what balance is. The goal is to make player skill the dominant factor in determining who wins and who loses. Is it not?

Zelulose.8695:

Certain players find certain specs are stronger for their respective play style.

There would still be room for that. Certainly players would be able to find something appealing if there were say 3-5 good choices for each class.

Zelulose.8695:

What you suggest takes the creativity seen in GW1 and promised in GW2 out of the picture. If this happens you might as well play another MMORPG because the thing that set GW2 apart was build customization. With out that, you might as well play WoW.

I’ve always operated under the assumption that the main thing separating GW2 in the MMORPG market was the lack of a gear grind. At least that’s why I’ve kept playing. I’ve never played WoW but all the research I’ve done indicates that there’s pvp gear and that it matters.

Israel.7056:

Zelulose.8695:

Balancing builds is not to make every single spec and every single build arrangement 100% fair

I think that’s exactly what balance is. The goal is to make player skill the dominant factor in determining who wins and who loses. Is it not?

Zelulose.8695:

Certain players find certain specs are stronger for their respective play style.

There would still be room for that. Certainly players would be able to find something appealing if there were say 3-5 good choices for each class.

Zelulose.8695:

What you suggest takes the creativity seen in GW1 and promised in GW2 out of the picture. If this happens you might as well play another MMORPG because the thing that set GW2 apart was build customization. With out that, you might as well play WoW.

I’ve always operated under the assumption that the main thing separating GW2 in the MMORPG market was the lack of a gear grind. At least that’s why I’ve kept playing. I’ve never played WoW but all the research I’ve done indicates that there’s pvp gear and that it matters.

There are plenty MOBA games that equalize things and plenty MMORPG with equalized pvp gear. An example, Swordsman Online has equalized pvp stats and let me tell you that game is difficult as skill wise you have to be on top. But I’m not here to advertize another game.

Pvp Selling point

1. Yes there is equalized gear and level in pvp.

2. Promise of no Holy Trinity

3. Promise of character customization and Unique build creation

4. Promise of high skill fast action combat when compared to gw1. The reason they never added action combat when guildwars 1 fans asked about it was because they thought it would be too complicated. Well here it is because we asked for it.

They have some other selling points but these are some of the big ones they announced themselves.

Another thing that is needed is templates. How hard can it be exactly to allow you to save several different builds on a character for easy switching. Rift had it at release a five yeard old game.

Yes. we really need this. Badly.

Building is what make Gw2 and Overwatch different.

Without builds… I guess people would leave to better competitive game/esport.

Zelulose.8695:

3. Promise of character customization and Unique build creation

I have no way of knowing exactly how important this is to players but I personally don’t really care as long as I can name my character and make them look how I want them to look.

I’ve rarely built my own stuff anyways I usually just copy it from a stream or a pvp video I’ve watched.

I would much rather have a system that was easier to balance than have the freedom to make builds. Also I would like Solo Queue back.

Israel.7056:

Zelulose.8695:

3. Promise of character customization and Unique build creation

I have no way of knowing exactly how important this is to players but I personally don’t really care as long as I can name my character and make them look how I want them to look.

I’ve rarely built my own stuff anyways I usually just copy it from a stream or a pvp video I’ve watched.

I would much rather have a system that was easier to balance than have the freedom to make builds. Also I would like Solo Queue back.

This is probably why you don’t like the way things are. If you never get creative and find your nich and focus on copying other player’s nich you will never realize your true potential or enjoy pvp in the same way the other non copycat players do. Make a decent variation that suits you and it may change the way you see this issue.

Zelulose.8695:

This is probably why you don’t like the way things are. If you never get creative and find your nich and focus on copying other player’s nich you will never realize your true potential or enjoy pvp in the same way the other non copycat players do. Make a decent variation that suits you and it may change the way you see this issue.

This isn’t really about me. I’ve been able to accomplish pretty much everything I’ve wanted to accomplish using builds that other people have come up for as long as I can remember. There’s no reason to try to “find my niche” because the meta builds work. They work because they’re objectively stronger and more effective.

This is about making the task of balancing the game easier for the balancing team. I believe that the fewer choices players are given the easier it will be for the developers to balance the choices the players are left with.

Maybe they’re already thinking about it.