Guild Wars 2

We’ve all had that experience: Someone sprays a bottle of premium super herpes on you, you decide it’s time to go to the hospital and get checked out and then you cleanse everything BUT those 20 stacks of bleeding. No fun, right? I would argue that this isn’t the point of condition builds. Condition builds are about wearing the opposition down over time; not taking advantage of cheap mechanics, sometimes seemingly by luck. Since classes will only receive increased access to all conditions in future updates/expacs, some of the more powerful conditions are no longer going to be balanced by being “rare.”

To address this issue, I think there should be a priority or tier-list in which condition cleanses in this game act in order to treat conditions. This tier list takes into account stacking, but not duration. I have not really considered condition durations in here as I think that would complicate the math behind this process a bit too much.

The general idea behind the priorities here is to cleanse the conditions most threatening to self first. So, without further ado, here is a tier-list of the order in which cleanses should remove condis in my opinion.

-Tier 1: 10+ stacks of bleed, 5+ stacks of confusion, 5+ stacks of torment, 7+ stacks of poison, 3+ stacks of burning

-Tier 2: Fear, Taunt

-Tier 3: Immobilize, chill

-Tier 4: Cripple, slow, blind

-Tier 5: 2-4 stacks of confusion, 5-9 stacks of bleed, 3-4 stacks of torment, 1-6 stacks of poison, 1-2 stacks of burning.

-Tier 6: 10+ stacks of vulnerability, weakness

-Tier 7: 1 stack of confusion, 1-2 stack of torment, 1-4 stacks of bleed

-Tier 8: 1-9 stacks of vulnerability.

*Note: Condis of the same tier should be removed as they are now (based on which was most recently applied).

Some final notes: I understand that this system isn’t perfect but would probably work better than what we have now. Since a system like this is essentially a nerf to condi-bombs, compensation should include longer durations on skills that apply low amounts of condis (to keep the damage up over time).

**Also, take note that I only know a small amount of coding. I wouldn’t be surprised if a game dev told me that implementing a system like this wouldn’t be possible. I visually imagine that the system would work like this: once applied condis on a target meet the threshold for the tiers, they will reorganize themselves in order under the target’s hp bar (tier 1 at the left, tier 8 at the right), and then condi cleanses will cleanse from left to right.

Taunt and Fear should have less priority, because they can be stunbroken as well. In general I agree, there should be priorities for clearing. It would make things easier for both parties, the receiver and the provider.

I like your idea, but it needs a bit of tweaking. Something like the following

Tier 1 – 7+ of any of Bleed, Torment, Poison, Burning, 15+ stacks of vulnerability

Tier 2 – Immobilize, Chill, Confusion

Tier 3 – Less than 7 stacks of any of Bleed, Torment, Poison, Burning, 10+ stacks of vulnerability

Tier 4 – Fear, Taunt, Cripple, Slow

Tier 5 – Blind, Vulnerability, Weakness

These tiers are in the order of most to least dangerous conditions imo. The conditions in Tiers 4 and 5 are truthfully mostly annoyances. Tier 1 are enough stacks of the highly damaging conditions to tear you apart in a few seconds, Tier 2 conditions can be equally deadly in their own way. Tier 3 is simply fewer stacks of Tier 1, still deadly just with so few stacks not as deadly as immobilize or chill can be.

I suggested this awhile back so I agree. Different priorities should be set from character to character so chill could be top priority on a druid but second tier on a rev or elementalist due to Riposting Shadows and Stop, Drop, and Roll while last on a daredevil due to dodge cleansing chill and cripple and a sigil that refills endurance.

Agemnon.4608:

I suggested this awhile back so I agree. Different priorities should be set from character to character so chill could be top priority on a druid but second tier on a rev or elementalist due to Riposting Shadows and Stop, Drop, and Roll while last on a daredevil due to dodge cleansing chill and cripple and a sigil that refills endurance.

I disagree. This is something that should be the same for everyone, especially because of PvP. If I see you with multiple conditions and know you have a condi cleanse ready, then unless the cleanse is not random I should know ahead of time which condi’s you will cleanse. This allows so much more potential for strategy for condi classes. For instance I would then avoid blowing any CDs that would apply more stacks of what you are about to cleanse and save them until after you use your cleanse. If I can’t predict what you will cleanse then this goes out the window and doesn’t promote thinking on my part

Ever heard about L.i.f.o…??

OriOri.8724:

Agemnon.4608:

I suggested this awhile back so I agree. Different priorities should be set from character to character so chill could be top priority on a druid but second tier on a rev or elementalist due to Riposting Shadows and Stop, Drop, and Roll while last on a daredevil due to dodge cleansing chill and cripple and a sigil that refills endurance.

I disagree. This is something that should be the same for everyone, especially because of PvP. If I see you with multiple conditions and know you have a condi cleanse ready, then unless the cleanse is not random I should know ahead of time which condi’s you will cleanse. This allows so much more potential for strategy for condi classes. For instance I would then avoid blowing any CDs that would apply more stacks of what you are about to cleanse and save them until after you use your cleanse. If I can’t predict what you will cleanse then this goes out the window and doesn’t promote thinking on my part

Pretty much this.

You are asking for some of the strategy to be taken out of condi play just to make cleansing more brain dead. That’s a balancing step in the wrong direction.

Now cleanse skills that cleanse specific condis, I’m all down for. That helps to provide more skillful condi cleansing.

Shaogin.2679:

Pretty much this.

You are asking for some of the strategy to be taken out of condi play just to make cleansing more brain dead. That’s a balancing step in the wrong direction.

Now cleanse skills that cleanse specific condis, I’m all down for. That helps to provide more skillful condi cleansing.

Can’t say I agree with this. As it is right now, there are so many instances where cover condis are cleansed seemingly because of luck, or how the original skill was designed (applies deadly condi first, then weaker condis later) rather than because the user applied condis in a certain order.

Contrary to what you said, I think such a system would involve a lot of strategy for condi builds. For instance, playing as a condi build, you would have to decide when to keep low-medium amounts of condis on and when to condi-bomb as opposed to just constantly condi-bombing on cool-down knowing that your single stack of vulnerability is going to get cleansed first. A condition build is not meant to be an alternative way to burst people down. It’s an entirely different play-style, and a priority system like this actually has the potential to reinforce that if designed properly.

Arcaedus.7290:

Shaogin.2679:

Pretty much this.

You are asking for some of the strategy to be taken out of condi play just to make cleansing more brain dead. That’s a balancing step in the wrong direction.

Now cleanse skills that cleanse specific condis, I’m all down for. That helps to provide more skillful condi cleansing.

Can’t say I agree with this. As it is right now, there are so many instances where cover condis are cleansed seemingly because of luck, or how the original skill was designed (applies deadly condi first, then weaker condis later) rather than because the user applied condis in a certain order.

Contrary to what you said, I think such a system would involve a lot of strategy for condi builds. For instance, playing as a condi build, you would have to decide when to keep low-medium amounts of condis on and when to condi-bomb as opposed to just constantly condi-bombing on cool-down knowing that your single stack of vulnerability is going to get cleansed first. A condition build is not meant to be an alternative way to burst people down. It’s an entirely different play-style, and a priority system like this actually has the potential to reinforce that if designed properly.

Anet seems to want condi builds to be an alternative way to burst people down, so I can’t agree with you there. If cleanses prioritized damaging conditions, my Scrapper would never die to condi damage, period. I played Engi for so long that I know when to best use my cleanses and how to prioritize. When playing a condi class against someone that knows how to properly cleanse, I have to bait out cleanses and defense skills, then condi bomb at the right time and then lay on some cover conditions. This proposed change would mean no matter what I do on a condi build, the enemy can negate my damage any time he wants.

I can’t think of a worse way for ANET to handle the condi spam mess.

You may not agree with the OP’s suggested ordering, but any known order is better than random.

Exedore.6320:

You may not agree with the OP’s suggested ordering, but any known order is better than random.

It’s not random right now though iirc. Cleansing prioritizes last on – first off. The only random thing is converting condis/boons.

Shaogin.2679:

Exedore.6320:

You may not agree with the OP’s suggested ordering, but any known order is better than random.

It’s not random right now though iirc. Cleansing prioritizes last on – first off. The only random thing is converting condis/boons.

It hasn’t been LIFO (last in – first out) for years if it ever was.

Starting with the June 2015 patch, condition clear and boon strip became random.

Before then, each skill had its own priority groupings based on the condition/boon type (but not number of stacks). I know that for guardian, burning removal was in the second grouping, which made it hard to remove when you had multiple conditions. And I know that for necro boon strip, removing might was near the bottom of the list with retaliation at the top.

Per gw2 wiki:

“For generic condition removal, the most recently applied condition or conditions will be removed first. The condition is removed independent of the intensity, so 3 stacks and 250 stacks of bleeding are equivalent when considering condition removal.”

I get that Boon stripping and Condi/Boon converting is random, but condi removal has been and still is last on – first off. This is why cover conditions are placed after damaging conditions.

Shaogin.2679:

Per gw2 wiki:

“For generic condition removal, the most recently applied condition or conditions will be removed first. The condition is removed independent of the intensity, so 3 stacks and 250 stacks of bleeding are equivalent when considering condition removal.”

I get that Boon stripping and Condi/Boon converting is random, but condi removal has been and still is last on – first off. This is why cover conditions are placed after damaging conditions.

Not sure on the current state of things so take with a grain of salt but.. The wiki is not 100% reliable source, it has many things/pages that are severely outdated. Your quote may be among them.

The wiki has been wrong about condition removal for years.

I will have to test it out when I’m back in the states then, but to my understanding it has always been that way. May be able to dig up patch notes on it somewhere though.

From this post for the June 2015 overhaul:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/June-23-Specialization-Changes/first

Boon to condition conversion and condition to boon conversion has been standardized and its functionality changed. Skills which convert boons and conditions now randomly select from all boons and conditions on the target instead of taking the last applied.

This doesn’t explicitly list condition removal or boon strip – only conversion – but players guessed that they would all share the same mechanics and after some testing found that all boon and condition removal was random. There may be discussion in that threat somewhere.

Exedore.6320:

From this post for the June 2015 overhaul:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/June-23-Specialization-Changes/first

Boon to condition conversion and condition to boon conversion has been standardized and its functionality changed. Skills which convert boons and conditions now randomly select from all boons and conditions on the target instead of taking the last applied.

This doesn’t explicitly list condition removal or boon strip – only conversion – but players guessed that they would all share the same mechanics and after some testing found that all boon and condition removal was random. There may be discussion in that threat somewhere.

Yeah I’m aware the conversion was changed to be random. Everything I have looked up so far though shows nothing official, but suggests that certain conditions have priority, and conditions of the same priority when removed are removed based on last on – first off. Gotta keep looking through this stuff though since I can test anything out right now.

Shaogin.2679:

Arcaedus.7290:

Shaogin.2679:

Pretty much this.

You are asking for some of the strategy to be taken out of condi play just to make cleansing more brain dead. That’s a balancing step in the wrong direction.

Now cleanse skills that cleanse specific condis, I’m all down for. That helps to provide more skillful condi cleansing.

Can’t say I agree with this. As it is right now, there are so many instances where cover condis are cleansed seemingly because of luck, or how the original skill was designed (applies deadly condi first, then weaker condis later) rather than because the user applied condis in a certain order.

Contrary to what you said, I think such a system would involve a lot of strategy for condi builds. For instance, playing as a condi build, you would have to decide when to keep low-medium amounts of condis on and when to condi-bomb as opposed to just constantly condi-bombing on cool-down knowing that your single stack of vulnerability is going to get cleansed first. A condition build is not meant to be an alternative way to burst people down. It’s an entirely different play-style, and a priority system like this actually has the potential to reinforce that if designed properly.

Anet seems to want condi builds to be an alternative way to burst people down, so I can’t agree with you there. If cleanses prioritized damaging conditions, my Scrapper would never die to condi damage, period. I played Engi for so long that I know when to best use my cleanses and how to prioritize. When playing a condi class against someone that knows how to properly cleanse, I have to bait out cleanses and defense skills, then condi bomb at the right time and then lay on some cover conditions. This proposed change would mean no matter what I do on a condi build, the enemy can negate my damage any time he wants.

I don’t think ANet actually believes that despite the position condition builds are in now. We can both theorize the way in which this system would play out on paper. Take note that I suggested compensation would include longer duration of conditions for skills that applied fewer stacks of conditions. The image I had in my mind is that a condi-build could at all times be keeping up a handful of damaging condi stacks. This would keep the condis in one of the lower tiers so that the target player would either be cleansing higher priority things (blind, immob, fear, taunt, chill, that stack of 10 vuln) that don’t do damage, or be forced to eat the condi damage and save the condi-clear. Once the target has blown most/all of their condi cleanse, a condi bomb will destroy them.

If the target is bringing a large amount of condi clear, then honestly that should be a soft-counter to a condi-build (which doesn’t seem to be the case currently for some condi builds). Many/most classes can’t do this without gimping their offence anyway. Overall it looks pretty balanced on paper to me. Whether it would turn out balanced or not, I think such a system is worth testing.

Interesting to test sure. But Anet doesn’t have a great track record at reverting changes they made no matter how bad they are. Which means if it doesn’t work, we could be stuck with something worse than we have now.

Also, longer durations on condis wouldn’t be much of a compensation at all, considering most condi builds don’t bother trying to go for a lot of condi duration due to the frequency of condis being cleansed.

But from how you described it, it sounds like the condi player will just constantly be apply conditions on the target, waiting for him to use up all of his cleanses, and then burst him when he uses his last cleanse. Which of course would only work if that player’s other condi cleanses are not off cooldown by then, and of course if the condi player hasn’t died before then.

Maybe it could work if resistance and condi cleanses were heavily reduced, because again in the situation you explained, a power Scrapper would be able to destroy any condi build without worry.

Saku Joe.2857:

Ever heard about L.i.f.o…??

What he said. As someone who prefers power meta over condition meta, I still have to favor the strategy that goes into condition covering. I just can’t agree with a dumbed down system like this over LIFO which has actual strategical merit.

Shaogin.2679:

Interesting to test sure. But Anet doesn’t have a great track record at reverting changes they made no matter how bad they are. Which means if it doesn’t work, we could be stuck with something worse than we have now.

Also, longer durations on condis wouldn’t be much of a compensation at all, considering most condi builds don’t bother trying to go for a lot of condi duration due to the frequency of condis being cleansed.

But from how you described it, it sounds like the condi player will just constantly be apply conditions on the target, waiting for him to use up all of his cleanses, and then burst him when he uses his last cleanse. Which of course would only work if that player’s other condi cleanses are not off cooldown by then, and of course if the condi player hasn’t died before then.

Maybe it could work if resistance and condi cleanses were heavily reduced, because again in the situation you explained, a power Scrapper would be able to destroy any condi build without worry.

By test, I meant on private servers/testing by game devs. No way I’d want them to just suddenly spring this upon us in game haha. Also from my experience, most condi builds have more than one condi-bomb just as power-based builds have more than 1 way to lay on some burst throughout a fight.

The main reason I suggested this system is to give a bit more of a fighting chance to builds which inherently don’t have much condi-cleanse (any power-based rev for example), reinforce the play-style of a condi-build, and also make things a bit more fair for condi-builds that don’t have access to a legitimate amount of cover-condis (burn guard for example). Other compensation may be necessary, such as increasing condi-application for various weapon/util/traits, or reducing resistance durations.

Velimere.7685:

Saku Joe.2857:

Ever heard about L.i.f.o…??

What he said. As someone who prefers power meta over condition meta, I still have to favor the strategy that goes into condition covering. I just can’t agree with a dumbed down system like this over LIFO which has actual strategical merit.

I addressed this earlier. Yes such a system would take the “strategy,” (if you want to call it that) out of cover condis, but the need for strategic choices would arise elsewhere, specifically in watching for condi cleanses and heals and deciding when to lay on the condi-bomb.

This should be approved, because “Last applied” cleansing mechanic is one of the worst design ever made.
Like I got hit by 20 bleed stacks and 2 burns, the game would only cleanse my 1 Vulnerability stack just because someone just get a lucky auto attack on me if I used a 1-stack cleanse.

Arcaedus.7290:

I addressed this earlier. Yes such a system would take the “strategy,” (if you want to call it that) out of cover condis, but the need for strategic choices would arise elsewhere, specifically in watching for condi cleanses and heals and deciding when to lay on the condi-bomb.

It is strategy that sees thorough application in this game, so of course I am going to call it what it is regardless as to any contrary personal disagreement that you may or might have with reality concerning the fact of the matter. Your attempt at a rebuttal (if you want to call it that) cites further preexisting strategy that also already sees thorough application and is thus a moot point altogether that does not serve your agenda. If you want to argue with me, then I suggest that you first present an actual argument. Cheers!

Esonver.8470:

This should be approved, because “Last applied” cleansing mechanic is one of the worst design ever made.
Like I got hit by 20 bleed stacks and 2 burns, the game would only cleanse my 1 Vulnerability stack just because someone just get a lucky auto attack on me if I used a 1-stack cleanse.

That’s kind of the point. Macebow isn’t using Superior Sigil of Frailty for no reason.

Velimere.7685:

It is strategy that sees thorough application in this game, so of course I am going to call it what it is regardless as to any contrary personal disagreement that you may or might have with reality concerning the fact of the matter. Your attempt at a rebuttal (if you want to call it that) cites further preexisting strategy that also already sees thorough application and is thus a moot point altogether that does not serve your agenda. If you want to argue with me, then I suggest that you first present an actual argument. Cheers!

It’s more akin to smart theorycrafting that exploits the lifo system. For the most part there is very little strategy to it. You condi bomb, and then take it for granted that the 1 stack of vuln gets cleansed first. There is perhaps some strategy if you condi bomb, then weapon-swap to a weapon with geomancy or doom (assuming your respective big guns aren’t bleed or poison). Also, yes condi-bombing after cleanses is currently existant, however in many cases it behooves one to condi bomb on cool-down as condi application > condi cleansing overall. This system may better condition players (pun fully intended) to condi-bomb after cleanses rather than on cooldown.

Arcaedus.7290:

Velimere.7685:

It is strategy that sees thorough application in this game, so of course I am going to call it what it is regardless as to any contrary personal disagreement that you may or might have with reality concerning the fact of the matter. Your attempt at a rebuttal (if you want to call it that) cites further preexisting strategy that also already sees thorough application and is thus a moot point altogether that does not serve your agenda. If you want to argue with me, then I suggest that you first present an actual argument. Cheers!

It’s more akin to smart theorycrafting that exploits the lifo system. For the most part there is very little strategy to it. You condi bomb, and then take it for granted that the 1 stack of vuln gets cleansed first. There is perhaps some strategy if you condi bomb, then weapon-swap to a weapon with geomancy or doom (assuming your respective big guns aren’t bleed or poison). Also, yes condi-bombing after cleanses is currently existant, however in many cases it behooves one to condi bomb on cool-down as condi application > condi cleansing overall. This system may better condition players (pun fully intended) to condi-bomb after cleanses rather than on cooldown.

Like I said, I am ok with what you are suggesting, since it could quell some complaints and replace our current strategy with a more engaging strategy, but only if the number of cleanses in the game is greatly reduced. If it is not, the current amount of cleanses in the game on the system you propose would make condi builds in pvp obsolete.

L.I.F.O is easy to test with a necro, corruptions + master of corruption and shrouded removal.

A skill will also apply conditions in the oder then read down a skill, e.g skull grinder applies blind first and cripple last. On hit sigil apply after this since they need the hit to work.

If you get hit with skull grinder and sigil of frailty goes off you need to remove two conditions before you get to the damaging ones or hope you get hit with another source of bleeding or confusion to move them to the top of the list.

The only thing that is random is any form of conversion be that boon to condi or condi to boon. If a skill reads conditions removed : # then it will always take the last applied. If it reads conditions to boons: # it will pick at random.

Thing is, your suggestion will hurt Wars/Necs/Mesmers in the competitive scene a whole lot more while just slightly helping soloQ players.

I’ve seen Abjured all huddle to the Ele’s water cleanse every time it comes up like they’re all a flock of birds thinking as one. I’ve seen soloQ players take every condition to the face instead of pulling back to me for an F2 AoE cleanse (cause I watch conditions that way) and they complain about their 3 cleansing abilities not doing anything in a team fight :/

This priority list would be better utilized on boon stripping skills, not condi cleansing. I say if condi is an issue, look into condi applications that’s covering all the Burst conditions classes have.

Saiyan.1704:

This priority list would be better utilized on boon stripping skills, not condi cleansing. I say if condi is an issue, look into condi applications that’s covering all the Burst conditions classes have.

Quoted for biblical truth and scholarly accuracy.

Shaogin and Saiyan: You two bring up excellent counter-arguments. I agree that there would be a lot (probably too much) to change in order to implement such a priority system. One way or another, I am of the opinion that certain condi builds are problematic in the current pvp meta, and this was my idea on “fixing” it. I am definitely a fan of Shaogin’s suggestion for condition-specific cleanses, although these would have to be more wide-spread and a lot of skills would need some slight redesigning. And Saiyan, your suggestion of looking at condi application is probably the most effective one, however I’ve seen it suggested so many times before with no real response from devs.

Here’s to hoping it gets addressed….some time….. within the next year…

Arcaedus.7290:

Shaogin and Saiyan: You two bring up excellent counter-arguments. I agree that there would be a lot (probably too much) to change in order to implement such a priority system. One way or another, I am of the opinion that certain condi builds are problematic in the current pvp meta, and this was my idea on “fixing” it. I am definitely a fan of Shaogin’s suggestion for condition-specific cleanses, although these would have to be more wide-spread and a lot of skills would need some slight redesigning. And Saiyan, your suggestion of looking at condi application is probably the most effective one, however I’ve seen it suggested so many times before with no real response from devs.

Here’s to hoping it gets addressed….some time….. within the next year…

I agree that the first thing that needs to be looked at with conditions is the condi applications that certain classes are putting out. There is a reason why not every profession is running a condi build for the meta, it’s because they can’t. Certain builds are over-performing in their application of conditions, which is giving off the impression that conditions in general are a problem. Balance the builds that are over-performing, then take another look at it to see if anything further needs to be done from there.