Guild Wars 2

DiogoSilva.7089:

I just came in to add that this game is not balanced around traitless builds, and some professions are much weaker without traits than others. A game mode that revolves around unlocking traits would be incredibly unbalanced, unless anet is willing to rebalance several professions. But, due to how scarce/ rare balancing updates have become in this game, loading even more work to the balancing team would be undesired, I think.

I do think a MOBA style game would be lovely, though. Item buffs/ consumables would be a good way to allow progression, but that by itself is probably a bit “boring” (not very visceral). A MOBA (at least the only one I’ve played, LOL) allows you to not only upgrade items, but your skills as well, in a way that seriously impacts the game. Unlocking utility skills is much like the early levels of a LoL match, but utilities are all under high cooldowns, and once unlocked, you can’t improve them any further. Wouldn’t that be a bit boring?

Things could be a bit more radical, and have weapon skills be unlocked by in-match levels as well, with everyone starting with an auto-attack and, maybe (depending on if progression is slow or fast) with their #2 skill too.

So that’s my big worry: a MOBA-style progression done in GW2 might turn to be either a bit too boring, or too radical and wreck balance. Also, MOBA is balanced around classes/ champions that have different levels of power through the game, with some being stronger early on, and others being late-game carries. This level of depth might be hard to accomplish in GW2, where everything is balanced around max-level builds.

I agree with you about traitless builds, so in my example, I said it would be better to choose the traits before match and only unlock skills during the match.

I don’t think that buffs/consumables are boring, because it’s do the same thing gear’s do on mobas, it’s just numbers that increase and don’t change your appearance. As you said, you can upgrade your skills on Mobas, but Mobas have fell skills, only 4 skills, GW2 we can have 10. I am in favor of having to unlock all 10, including weapon skills.
It would be nice to see people facing each other with only 1 skill at the beginning of the game :p

The only things i am missing at the moment is something arena like 2vs2 3vs3 thing and of course something like huttball :P

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Let me set up a quick recap of the thread so far:

• You guys/gals seem to really like the idea of a MOBA style game mode
  * Unlocking Skills, Traits, consumable, bundles, and ect.

Just wanted to note that I said the consumables should be auto-consumed. Have to open the inventory during the match would not be cool. Also, spectators need to know what you bought… so… I will give a example:

Lets say we can buy a siege weapon! Wen you buy it, your character will automatically carry a Banner with a emblem that symbolizes this siege weapon. During that time you can’t use your skills, you are vulnerable. When you put the banner on the ground (or use the unique area skill of the banner), the siege weapon will be built, without the need of supply… maybe you will need to press ‘F’ some times (like 3 times) to build it, or 3 different people of your team press ‘F’ one time each (in a 5v5 match, moba need to be 5v5). This could vary depending on the power of the siege, weak sieges don’t need people to press ‘F’ to build it after releasing the banner, you just release the banner and it will be build instantly.

edit: grammar

As a more PvP oriented player, I REALLY like to play:

1) Free for all arena: A big arena where you can just go in and attack any player.

2) Fast Deathmatch: 5×5. First team to stomp other team wins. Team with more stomps wins. Stomped = out. 5 min duration. A simpler map, not many places to hide/line of sight.

3) Duel mode: (right click > invite to duel > duel > 3min duration).

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Hey I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions we have gotten on this topic! I have seen people refer back to the original CDI thread we did awhile back and I appreciate that as well.

My goal here was to spark intelligent conversation between the community and myself with perhaps a newer audience then when the original CDI went out awhile back. I also will say that I am glad to see that people participated in this thread and are still here from when the original CDI happened. Thanks everyone for keeping this constructive!

Let me set up a quick recap of the thread so far:

• You guys/gals seem to really like the idea of a MOBA style game mode
  * Unlocking Skills, Traits, consumable, bundles, and ect.
• An idea about cap points that can be captured but then reset to address the problem with bunkers and stagnate point defense
• GW1 Jade quarry and Fort aspenwood
• Arenas 2v2 3v3 5v5
• Attack/Defend map with rounds
• 500 points doesn’t feel like a fun or rewards goal to hit in PvP
• Free for all Arena
• Trait/skill restriction game mode

Hate to sound like a broken record Hue, but this gamemode has a much of what you just listed :p

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/New-sPvP-Game-Mode-Idea/first#post4016977

Fort Aspenwood. SIEGE TURTLES & JUGGERNAUT.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fort_Aspenwood

This should be a focus for Spvp (next to jade quarry) this gamemode together with AB was the prime source of enjoyment for any pvp-er in guild wars. (excluding the 30 people who played HA).

i wish .. i only wish

Oooowh i just noticed Hugh mention it.. WIN!!!!
Hugh i have 3 guildies who are willing to offer themselves as a personal slave for you and the developers if FA and JQ are implemented.

I agree with manveruppd.7601 regarding skill/trait unlocking during a match.

I would HATE such a system – classes/builds would not be equally handicapped and some would be pretty much unplayable with anything less than their full skill/trait set.

A day before this thread I put down some ideas myself here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/PvP-mode-ideas/first#post4116832

Basically Arena, Capture the flag, Attack/defend and escort modes.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Let me set up a quick recap of the thread so far:

• You guys/gals seem to really like the idea of a MOBA style game mode
  * Unlocking Skills, Traits, consumable, bundles, and ect.
• An idea about cap points that can be captured but then reset to address the problem with bunkers and stagnate point defense
• GW1 Jade quarry and Fort aspenwood
• Arenas 2v2 3v3 5v5
• Attack/Defend map with rounds
• 500 points doesn’t feel like a fun or rewards goal to hit in PvP
• Free for all Arena
• Trait/skill restriction game mode

If I had to rank the top 3 it’d be:
1. Arena 2v2, 3v3, 5v5
2. Attack/defend
3. GW1 modes

Free for All, with no teams? So everyone against everyone? That would be neat.
But on the other hand I’m afraid it would just be filled with perma stealth thieves stealing kills and hiding.

I’m not a fan of MOBA modes personally, I would prefer to see more maps for the other modes than see mods put their time into this.

Gonna put down some ideas if anyone wants to contribute. Basically was thinking about how GW2 would fit into a MOBA like game-mode; and the mechanics behind progression could be the glue which holds it together.

To me, there are two things that progression needs to address (that would otherwise cause issues in a gw2 MOBA game type).

• Absence of specific roles in builds (at least from a MOBA perspective)

• Specific classes/builds being OP (thieves could be insane)

Here’s some casual suggestions
- choose a stat path at the start of the game, where stats are gained on level up. Deliberately make the celestial path grant an even higher stat coefficient on level than it would now (making specific ‘balanced’ builds; ele turret engi etc OP in the later game, and weaker at the start due to their reliance on stats for sustain/damage output).

- Give a key role to thieves/Mesmer/dps guard to manage certain mobs (akin to a jungler). A zerker stat allocation should make them good at this role, but worse at the carry due to lack celestial builds suitable for this role.

- Make the ‘strategy’ of progression mid match be trait (or even weapon) specific, rather than stat specific. i.e rather than running more armor to counter a high level direct dmg player, you might have to forgo some condi removal in your trait selection (for stability, dd mitigation, more dps etc), or swap to a weapon setup which is best suited for dealing with them.

Just some ideas anyway, worth discussing thisss

edt: ppl need to start with 6 trait points IMO however; most builds need this much to be ‘playable’.

Edmo.7159:

I agree with you about traitless builds, so in my example, I said it would be better to choose the traits before match and only unlock skills during the match.

I don’t think that buffs/consumables are boring, because it’s do the same thing gear’s do on mobas, it’s just numbers that increase and don’t change your appearance. As you said, you can upgrade your skills on Mobas, but Mobas have fell skills, only 4 skills, GW2 we can have 10. I am in favor of having to unlock all 10, including weapon skills.
It would be nice to see people facing each other with only 1 skill at the beginning of the game :p

I agree, but I’d say GW2 will never be able to mimic a pure MOBA in a way that’ll satisfy the playerbase. The best to do, is to take elements out of MOBA games, but make a different (if yet similar) game mode around them.

For example, GW1’s Jade Quarry feels like a fusion of MOBA’s maps and Conquest. It’s very unique.

Another example, and this one is out of my head, such game mode could also feature sieges, which would give players another thing to unlock through in-match progression.

With 8 skills (outside of AAs and heals), X item consumables/ buffs and Y siege prints, and assuming that some items and siege prints are inherently better than others (as in, they create the same buff or siege weaponry, just stronger), and you’d have plenty of progression between early game and late game. Some player builds could focus more on siege, others on individual battles, others on unique items buffs (that would add, say, movement speed, among others) to acchieve secondary goals.

For something of this scale and ambition, though, this could very well be GW2’s own version of GvG: a mixture of WvW macro tactics, MOBA progression and AI, and normal pvp’s micro battle-by-battle focus.

EDIT: Also, if monsters/ AI are to be added in a MOBA style game mode, Anet, make sure they serve a very important purpose: allow newbie players to be mildly successful and give them more opportunities and time to learn their profession/ build. In LoL, you might not beat an opponent stronger than you, but by staying near turrets and farming minions, you can still play safe long enough to not feed your opponent and have them carry their team. This is of massive importance, because it gives to less experienced players a chance to contribute positively to the team. It also makes harder matches more satisfying for them, giving a lot of casual appeal to this game mode.

manveruppd.7601:

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having a casual pvp gamemode, but the way it was brought up here was by drawing comparisons with the big MOBAs like lol and dota2 which have big competitive esports scenes! So I’m not at all sure that Karsai made the suggestion because he was asking for an alternative casual-friendly pvp mode, or that Hugh took his suggestion in that vein!
If they tried to make a MOBA-style gamemode for pvp, it would be broken, unbalanced, and shambolic. It might be fun to mess around in, but it would be impossible to make it into a balanced, competitive game that you can base tournaments with cash prizes on!

And incidentally, the reason FA and JQ were “casual” WASN’T because they only had “casual” people playing in them: it was because the balance in them was broken, giving one faction a significant advantage. You’re mistaking the symptom for the disease by thinking otherwise.

Fair comment. I still think an FA mode could work and be relatively balance. I think the real issue with any kind of defend/attack style of game is that the map design (layout) and win/lose mechanics need to be spot on. I think part of the problem FA had was the imbalance with taking down gates and defeating the npc’s before the bar filled, but I’m sure things like that could be balanced. I agree that it wasn’t perfect, but I do not think the mode itself is the problem. Which is I think were we both misunderstood each other. But it would need to be balanced right if they wanted to use it in a tournament, that I completely agree with.

Phaeton.9582:

Gonna put down some ideas if anyone wants to contribute. Basically was thinking about how GW2 would fit into a MOBA like game-mode; and the mechanics behind progression could be the glue which holds it together.

To me, there are two things that progression needs to address (that would otherwise cause issues in a gw2 MOBA game type).

• Absence of specific roles in builds (at least from a MOBA perspective)

• Specific classes/builds being OP (thieves could be insane)

Here’s some casual suggestions
- choose a stat path at the start of the game, where stats are gained on level up. Deliberately make the celestial path grant an even higher stat coefficient on level than it would now (making specific ‘balanced’ builds; ele turret engi etc OP in the later game, and weaker at the start due to their reliance on stats for sustain/damage output).

- Give a key role to thieves/Mesmer/dps guard to manage certain mobs (akin to a jungler). A zerker stat allocation should make them good at this role, but worse at the carry due to lack celestial builds suitable for this role.

- Make the ‘strategy’ of progression mid match be trait (or even weapon) specific, rather than stat specific. i.e rather than running more armor to counter a high level direct dmg player, you might have to forgo some condi removal in your trait selection (for stability, dd mitigation, more dps etc), or swap to a weapon setup which is best suited for dealing with them.

Just some ideas anyway, worth discussing thisss

edt: ppl need to start with 6 trait points IMO however; most builds need this much to be ‘playable’.

Yes yes yes and yes. It’d solve many balance issues by itself considering the so called op things would only become op if the ennemy slacks while having an advantage over them early/midgame.

In LoL, a bruiser type character, like Jax, with triforce and botrk would be op if you could have access to those items right away, and that’s what celestial specs are like atm. But considering how the team having a jax has to slow play and survive/trade efficiently early and mid game, it makes it rewarding and fair. On the other hand, the ennemy can pick a really strong early/mid game comp, and focus on having a fast game ending strategy, or simply chose to pick an equally strong late game comp and simply outplay their opponent.

With proper itemization and meaningful secondary mechanics, this is when the magic happens and the depth comes in. Note down what phaeton said, please, it’s golden.

Personally I don’t understand the appeal of MOBAs, so am not really interested in such game modes for gw2 pvp.

I would prefer to see more action oriented game modes – akin to those from different TPS/rpg games.

For example team based multi layered objectives:
- one team has an attacking primary objective (capture an enemy base, destroy a generator, kill a VIP npc, escape a prison…) and another is tasked to defend/protect something (a base, escort a champ, capture prisoners etc).
- multiple objectives along the way – for example hacking door controls to open new pathways in order to access the defending team’s base, enabling/disabling turrets,
- defending team can employ different countermeasures (secondary objectives) such as activating npc guards, putting up walls/forcefields

There could also be scenarios where neither team is the clear aggressor, but a more intricate “plot” instead.

In a nutshell the idea is for each team to have one overall primary objective that can be accomplished by either:
- completing the primary objective
- killing the enemy team a sufficient number of times until reaching a point cap
- time limit expires and one team wins by default (team defending a base for example – the attackers were unsuccessful).

And along the way there are multiple secondary objectives that offer a non-linear approach to winning – carefully balanced around what each team is tasked to do (defending one objective may be easier than attacking it for example).

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Hey I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions we have gotten on this topic! I have seen people refer back to the original CDI thread we did awhile back and I appreciate that as well.

My goal here was to spark intelligent conversation between the community and myself with perhaps a newer audience then when the original CDI went out awhile back. I also will say that I am glad to see that people participated in this thread and are still here from when the original CDI happened. Thanks everyone for keeping this constructive!

Let me set up a quick recap of the thread so far:

• You guys/gals seem to really like the idea of a MOBA style game mode
  * Unlocking Skills, Traits, consumable, bundles, and ect.
• An idea about cap points that can be captured but then reset to address the problem with bunkers and stagnate point defense
• GW1 Jade quarry and Fort aspenwood
• Arenas 2v2 3v3 5v5
• Attack/Defend map with rounds
• 500 points doesn’t feel like a fun or rewards goal to hit in PvP
• Free for all Arena
• Trait/skill restriction game mode

Can we finally have this http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1r8prs/new_game_mode_prototypes_from_livestream/ before worthless “CDI sum up”s?

Curunen.8729:

Personally I don’t understand the appeal of MOBAs, so am not really interested in such game modes for gw2 pvp.

I would prefer to see more action oriented game modes – akin to those from different TPS/rpg games.

For example team based multi layered objectives:
- one team has an attacking primary objective (capture an enemy base, destroy a generator, kill a VIP npc, escape a prison…) and another is tasked to defend/protect something (a base, escort a champ, capture prisoners etc).
- multiple objectives along the way – for example hacking door controls to open new pathways in order to access the defending team’s base, enabling/disabling turrets,
- defending team can employ different countermeasures (secondary objectives) such as activating npc guards, putting up walls/forcefields

There could also be scenarios where neither team is the clear aggressor, but a more intricate “plot” instead.

In a nutshell the idea is for each team to have one overall primary objective that can be accomplished by either:
- completing the primary objective
- killing the enemy team a sufficient number of times until reaching a point cap
- time limit expires and one team wins by default (team defending a base for example – the attackers were unsuccessful).

And along the way there are multiple secondary objectives that offer a non-linear approach to winning – carefully balanced around what each team is tasked to do (defending one objective may be easier than attacking it for example).

Indeed! Objectives are what make pvp fun, not the emptiness that is ‘cap a point for no apparant reason’.

What I’m tired with in conquest is:
- being forced to fight near/on point, where aoe spam is king and certain builds/classes have distinct advantages.
- being forced to fight in a timely fashion against point bunkers – unlike wvw where you can kite around for half an hour if you like.
- being forced to do a silly dance rotation to cap the points/meaningless objectives.

Curunen.8729:

What I’m tired with in conquest is:
- being forced to fight near/on point, where aoe spam is king and certain builds/classes have distinct advantages.
- being forced to fight in a timely fashion against point bunkers – unlike wvw where you can kite around for half an hour if you like.
- being forced to do a silly dance rotation to cap the points/meaningless objectives.

What makes a fun to play/ Fun to Watch Game mode?
1. Kiting for hours
2.Fighting in one area.
3. No Point Bunkers

Really ? :/ I think that would be an awful to play and awful to watch gamemode..

Without Objectives which concentrate fights (PointsLordFlag) You end up with an unbalanceable Doki-doki-carebear-run-run game mode.

We already have that, It’s called Wvwvw, we don’t need to make PVP into Wvwvw.

Rin.1046:

Fair comment. I still think an FA mode could work and be relatively balance. I think the real issue with any kind of defend/attack style of game is that the map design (layout) and win/lose mechanics need to be spot on. I think part of the problem FA had was the imbalance with taking down gates and defeating the npc’s before the bar filled, but I’m sure things like that could be balanced.

I agree, there was nothing inherently unbalanced about FA, they just didn’t get it right. And it could definitely be fun in GW2, I’d certainly play it! Make no mistake though, it wouldn’t be easy to balance in GW2: a bunker guardian could keep the NPCs at the mines alive for a lot longer than a GW1 monk or ritualist could (because so many of the Guardian support effects are pbaoe), and a shortbow thief could carry a bunch of amber soooo much faster than anybody else! So if you had people randomly being assigned to each side, the comp could decide the winner before the match even begins. Cue people ragequitting the match cause their team didn’t get a [insert class A] or has too many [insert class B].

I’m still dead against stat and trait progression though, it would make it completely impossible to balance because so many builds are only viable because of their traits!

tl;dr: In a game that allows as much customisation and specialisation as GW2, serious competitive pvp gamemodes need to be symmetrical. That way, if there is a class/build that’s overpowered, at least both teams have the same opportunity to exploit it.

Darnis.4056:

Curunen.8729:

What I’m tired with in conquest is:
- being forced to fight near/on point, where aoe spam is king and certain builds/classes have distinct advantages.
- being forced to fight in a timely fashion against point bunkers – unlike wvw where you can kite around for half an hour if you like.
- being forced to do a silly dance rotation to cap the points/meaningless objectives.

What makes a fun to play/ Fun to Watch Game mode?
1. Kiting for hours
2.Fighting in one area.
3. No Point Bunkers

Really ? :/ I think that would be an awful to play and awful to watch gamemode..

Without Objectives which concentrate fights (PointsLordFlag) You end up with an unbalanceable Doki-doki-carebear-run-run game mode.

We already have that, It’s called Wvwvw, we don’t need to make PVP into Wvwvw.

If you read my previous post, you would see I am in favour of strong objective based modes, with some plot/scenario behind them and non-linear approach to winning with secondary objectives on the map.

The maps would have to be a little more complicated than at the moment – not as open and more built around the specific objective (whether escorting an VIP along a path or defending a base).

That in itself would be enough (along with a time limit or kill limit – maybe a certain number of lives) to make it fun.

The “kite around for half an hour” was tongue in cheek – of course no pvp match should last this long. But you should not be forced to fight a bunker on a point as it is now. Nevertheless I enjoy watching skilled survival of a 1vx scenario, no matter the time.

WvW does not offer enough when it comes to this sort of thing – need more small scale and focused objectives, but less restrictive than the current pvp.

Edit: for reference, I’m thinking of the moviebattles II mod for jedi academy, and the team based objectives there. Matches were only 5 minutes, but each class would have 1-3 lives (depending on the relative strength, ie basic trooper vs droideka). Obviously that would not work with gw2 – everyone would need the same number of lives (unless one player is a VIP or something). But what would apply is how this game mode can work in a short time frame (15 minutes).

Now that I think about it, We already have Huttball in the game… it’s Keg Brawl; The only really difference is that Huttball lets you use your own skills, instead of a limited set for the game mode.

Well, that and Huttball’s awesome multi-tier arena that really helps promote team play, since it is difficult to navigate the thing solo without being knocked down into a pit or another hazard and get stuck there. If you guys ever decide to make another Keg Brawl map, or better yet, make a Halo Assault match/Huttball-like game type for sPvP you should really check out SWTOR’s Huttball map for ideas.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

I am really loving the discussion going on in this thread. This is a testament to how awesome our community is! Alright so now that we have flushed out some ideas let me give you some guide lines and let me know if we can design around it.

1. Must be able to be hot join-able
* Not easily griefed and allow players to be able to jump in and out
2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard
3. Can fit our standard PvP match time (15 mins)
4. (Would Be Nice) Shout castable

Alright let me know how your ideas fit or change with these standards.

Points 2, 3 and 4 are obvious and should be the standard for any mode.

Point 1 should not ever exist, because balancing hot-join is an enormous effort that will fail anyway. Personally I would not waste time and resources and ANY hotjoinable mode since it will never be balanced (you may try by adding NPCs to fit the empty slots on a team and match the number of players on the other team, but those NPCs will be tricked the same way PVE bosses are, unless you mastered some awesome AI skills we are not aware of :P ).

PS: Sorry, this post came out more “aggressive” that I would like to.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

I am really loving the discussion going on in this thread. This is a testament to how awesome our community is! Alright so now that we have flushed out some ideas let me give you some guide lines and let me know if we can design around it.

1. Must be able to be hot join-able
* Not easily griefed and allow players to be able to jump in and out
2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard
3. Can fit our standard PvP match time (15 mins)
4. (Would Be Nice) Shout castable

Alright let me know how your ideas fit or change with these standards.

I don’t think you can come up with good new game modes if you try to adapt them from the current standards. Different game modes should have different standards. Especially if going for a moba-like mode :

1. Instead of being “hotjoinable”, why not having a training mode for that specific mode, kinda like ARAM in LoL, 5 vs 5 in one lane and each an objective to defend/assault ennemy objective.
Having a “hotjoinable” moba like mode ruins the immersion and the players don’t even rly care because they can do whatever they want ! They can still hj conquest if they wanna run around killing ppl in spvp but pls, no hotjoin in other modes.

2. Perfectly fine for most modes but having a 2v2/1v1 training mode could be interesting as well.

3. THAT is a huuuuge mistake in my opinion. 15 minutes games tend to be anti climactic. You don’t really have early, mid and late game phases with 15 minutes only games. In all games, players tend to crave for very intense, long games. Those games are EPIC because they involve very stressful and impactful decision making over an extended period of time that allows truely better players, that have an in depth understanding of the game and how to approach it, to make a huge difference because every little detail counts in super late game ! 15 minutes only games tend to be very forgiving, which takes away a lot of the depth and pleasure to play. No time limit is so much more exciting as the game will end either when you completely beat your opponent or get beaten, not by some preset timer….
Also, just implement a resign button after 15 minutes timer just in case ppl don’t wanna suffer through being rolled over by much stronger opponents.

4. Probably the most important one, that should be taken care of first and foremost imo.

Oni Link.4621:

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

I am really loving the discussion going on in this thread. This is a testament to how awesome our community is! Alright so now that we have flushed out some ideas let me give you some guide lines and let me know if we can design around it.

1. Must be able to be hot join-able
* Not easily griefed and allow players to be able to jump in and out
2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard
3. Can fit our standard PvP match time (15 mins)
4. (Would Be Nice) Shout castable

Alright let me know how your ideas fit or change with these standards.

Points 2, 3 and 4 are obvious and should be the standard for any mode.

Point 1 should not ever exist, because balancing hot-join is an enormous effort that will fail anyway. Personally I would not waste time and resources and ANY hotjoinable mode since it will never be balanced (you may try by adding NPCs to fit the empty slots on a team and match the number of players on the other team, but those NPCs will be tricked the same way PVE bosses are, unless you mastered some awesome AI skills we are not aware of :P ).

PS: Sorry, this post came out more “aggressive” that I would like to.

Point 1 is going to always be there so long as sPvP uses servers as a mechanic for creating/joining games, and I think you’d have more people against getting rid of servers just to introduce game modes with no hot joining than would be for it. If you don’t want people coming in at the 11th minute to change the game, there is always SoloQ.

In any case, I think you could make it work; the easiest way to make it work would be by buffing the mobs and towers of the team. If you have unlocks, then any new players should have the same amount of xp/unlocks as either the lowest “level” player in the match, or a median amount based on number of unlocks or time passed.

Though I think the deep problem would be the time a match would take; as KarsaiB mentioned, a time limit of 15 minutes does not make a deep MOBA game type.

Hello,
I kinda like the MOBA idea, I did a post myself about it.
So the MOBA style has multiple additionnal layers and you guys know how it works. However we can’t do it exactly the same because the game is different obviously. Let’s look at the problems :
- If the goal is to destroy the ennemy “lord” then you have to prevent immediate lord rushes. You can do so by placing destroyable turrets (put in context it could be guard camps) and soldier waves.
- Roles in gw2 are greatly dominated by zerk and condi gear. Make it so other gears are valuable. You can do that by creating a build up mechanic (for tanks, healers) such as items or perma buffs. A tank and a healer should still be able to deal damages to soldiers efficiently tough.
- Farming/building up your character is good because it creates a momentum, however but we can’t add items because we don’t have inventory. Maybe multiples kind of stackable buffs could be implimented (some you buy, some you get automaticaly per soldier/turret kills).
- Secondary objectives must have consequences but shouldn’t be the primary objective of the game. The MOBA model is quite good. Give buffes for those who kill the boss (and additionnal trading money).
- I’d really like a jungle mechanic, but buffes that grant you speed for 1minute or 20% damage increase for example.
- The game has to be clear and shoutcastable. Best way to do it is the MOBA style imo. It favors 1v1 or 2v2 plays and maes the actions more clear so it can be perfectly analysed. I get more fun doing 1v1s in WvW than doing team battles, tough, if built corretly team battles should be really fun.
- Team battles are hard to watch in gw2, but it’s ok. The problem is that players tend to loose their specific roles and dilute into a blob in gw2. Make it so roles can be defined. For example let the player choose wich kind of buff they want so they can play what they want.
- The mobility can be great in gw2, you travel very fast, make larger maps. This way players will think before going somewhere, and mobility is fun. Keep the narrow corridor tough.
- Gw2 battles need to be more strategic, and bushes in MOBA are a great way to make traps, ganks, etc. Create a mecanic like bushes, it’ll be great !
- Gw2 maps are not narrow enough, make lanes, clear ones please !
- I think the unlock skills system is not necessary, the emphasis is on building a momentum. In early game you should be able to have fierce battles (maybe unlock all utility skills and not the weapon skills ?) BUT you should not be able to access the ennemy base in away in early game.

If you do this, it’ll be very different from a MOBA while being inspired by it.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

I am really loving the discussion going on in this thread. This is a testament to how awesome our community is! Alright so now that we have flushed out some ideas let me give you some guide lines and let me know if we can design around it.

1. Must be able to be hot join-able
* Not easily griefed and allow players to be able to jump in and out
2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard
3. Can fit our standard PvP match time (15 mins)
4. (Would Be Nice) Shout castable

Alright let me know how your ideas fit or change with these standards.

Wait what? But there is already a game designed around this, Control Points! We can’t build much more around that besides the standard game modes like CTF, KOTH and things like that :/

I liked the other points much better, we need more option and a larger diverse amount of game modes that feel DIFFERENT from one another.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

I am really loving the discussion going on in this thread. This is a testament to how awesome our community is! Alright so now that we have flushed out some ideas let me give you some guide lines and let me know if we can design around it.

1. Must be able to be hot join-able
* Not easily griefed and allow players to be able to jump in and out
2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard
3. Can fit our standard PvP match time (15 mins)
4. (Would Be Nice) Shout castable

Alright let me know how your ideas fit or change with these standards.

I think the biggest addition needed for this would be a pre-game player draft to create teams.

2 Team captains, they choose others from the waiting list to add to the team, and during the match should not allow team swapping. Only allow new players to fill a spot left be a leaving player (which is crappy…there should be a leaver punishment of some kind)

Also DIFFERENT GAME MODES: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Suggestion-Each-map-has-its-own-game-mode/first#post4120399 >.>

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

I am really loving the discussion going on in this thread. This is a testament to how awesome our community is! Alright so now that we have flushed out some ideas let me give you some guide lines and let me know if we can design around it.

1. Must be able to be hot join-able
* Not easily griefed and allow players to be able to jump in and out
2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard
3. Can fit our standard PvP match time (15 mins)
4. (Would Be Nice) Shout castable

Alright let me know how your ideas fit or change with these standards.

Should be hot join-able? Most of the time in hotjoins people tend to forget what’s the objective of the game mode and start fighting for fun, or the game is affected by disparity in numbers in numebrs of players, and so on. Hotjoins should be seen as an additional way to play the game with no expectation, but for me the design of a new game mode shouldn’t be conditioned at all by the ability to be hot join-able.
And what do you mean with “Not easily griefed”? A griefer will find anyway a mechanism to ruin the game experience for others (I’m looking at you engi that love to move around people on purpose when someone try to stomp them in Solo Q).
For example you can’t make a MOBA style game designed to avoid the risk of “feeding” the enemy team, you have to build something totally different where killing an enemy won’t make you stronger.
For the point 3, i agree with KarsaiB.9475: 15 minutes games tend to be anti climactic.
Should be at least 20 – 25 min.

Bumping this so it stays up, we need more opinions on things like this, I want sPvP to thrive and grow

Well, I’ve given a lot of this feedback over a year ago, but i’ll hop back in and throw out some of my thoughts.

As for Moba style game mode, you don’t really need to copy/paste whats going on with LoL or Dota. Guild wars 2 can create its own style the way Heroes of the storm did or Orcs must die unchained.

Both these games are still in development but changing the focus on simply last hitting/gold generation and item progression to more action oriented progression.

Orcs must die unchained uses its original title focus of "tower defense’ and expands upon it by making the pvp about who can tower defense better while occasionally pushing their units past the enemy towers.

heroes of the storm however created a simple wave push with towers and barracdes to push past with added 2nd objectives to help achieve this in unique ways on each map.

I think guild wars 2 could take a lot of what Heroes of the storm does, but from a 3rd person similar to Smite.

So now that we’ve reviewed whats working and an approach to take with GW2 its time for a wrap up of how you can push a game along in a moba style game in guild wars 2.

1. Two lane maps.

As smite started experimenting with lately with their new moba map. Two lanes means more team fights and more action. The use of 3 very wide split lanes puts the focus on individual fights and is appropriate when the sole purpose of the game is farm-wars. Aka, who can last hit/deny etc better for the first 5-15 minutes of the game while avoiding being ganked by a jungler. But because no one really wants to watch that, and gw2 isn’t designed around that…it has no place in a gw2 moba. So narrowing it down to 2 lanes that are reasonably close. We can guarantee that more fights will break out earlier and more often. (also its easier for a shout caster to keep tabs on things) Best of all this data has already been experimented with and proven.

2. Alternative progression.

So its kinda complicated to fit in individual progression in a gw2 moba, as no one wants to have to unlock their skills as they play or have to buy items or buffs. And tbh I don’t think its necessary. So an obvious alternative is ways to increase your npc waves in helping you blow up the enemy base faster. We can do this several ways.

A. Through mercenary camps.
In heroes of the storm, killing neutral npc’s that spawn occasionally you can then earn them to fight for your team. After defeat they go back to full health and head down the nearest lane to help your lane push on in.

B. Alternate objectives.
In the new Smite map after so many kills (players/npc/junglemonsters) you earn a powerful unit that runs down a lane and help syour team take down towers. This is a fresh idea, but Heroes of the storm also has many, including gold coins you can collect to pay a ghost in the middle to attack the enemy base, or tributes that spawn around the map that you must fight over for a map wide debuff to the enemy team. You could even have points you have to hold, that while you control give your side a buff (similar to a very unplayed moba known as Demigod, that actually had some fresh ideas).

C. Power up units
Like demigod tried, and orcs must die unchained did. You could have a system so you could earn things to help buff your units. This is tricky however, because a system like this could quickly create snowballing. No one likes it when a game is decided 2 minutes in or even 5 minutes. But this can create a separate strategic approach to how you play deciding how to buff your units.

3. NPC boss defeat for victory.

Just like smite, to win should require killing a boss npc that the enemy team must protect. (like a guild lord npc ^^). This just makes blowing up the enemy “base” that much more exciting because your not just killing turrets/buildings your taking out a sorta raid boss.

I have lots more ideas and values to share on this topic, but unfortunately I have to get to bed. I’ll break out my notes later as I was designing something like this for an unmentioned mod. But keep in mind GW2 has something no other moba (not even smite) has. And that is a very depthy combat system. So the moba does not need as much going on as its counter parts do, that have very limited simple combat mechanics. The player needs to be able to have goals and reasons to team up, split up, and travel to different parts of the map. But at its heart the goal should be combat, fighting the enemy team.

Anyway, feel free to give feedback suggestions to what i said or expand upon it. I’ll be more than happy to follow up on this later.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

1. Must be able to be hot join-able
* Not easily griefed and allow players to be able to jump in and out
2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard

In my opinion these 2 don’t go hand in hand. People will always ragequit or try to join the winning team in hotjoins.

Gamemodes with less players (2-3) makes people feel more responsible for their team and larger gamemodes (8v8, 15v15) don’t really feel it when they lack 1 person.

Amongst other things, this is why I want to see 2v2 arena and 15v15 CTF gamemodes.

The entire hot-join factor is terrible for anything that could possibly be competitive. It can be used, but it has to be balanced around proper teams first and foremost.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

So to clarify the thought behind:

1. Must be able to be hot join-able

One thing we really want to do is promote and grow the player base. Now, what does that mean? When a new player (either to PvP or to the game) joins PvP for the first time they go to custom arenas to play and learn the game in a less competitive environment. We want those players to retain and work their way up to the competitive game modes: Solo or Team queue. So the meaning behind that statement is that the game mode must work for both casual and competitive environments to help grow the community.

I think a proper tutorial would convey this much better than forcing the hot-join “experience” on new players. Contrary to popular belief, just because it is easier to get into, doesn’t mean it is more enjoyable to new players. It can do the complete opposite if not made properly, having the entire experience force new players away from PvP because of: the lack of information given, unbalanced teams, no matchmaking, team swapping, the current meta, trash talk, elitism, sub-par rewards.

I think a well designed tutorial would be better than letting new players experience…that

Even something like Bot Matches, having new players que up into Tutorial matches, that have the team start with pre-defined bots on the points that the players would need to fight, capture and defend. (such as a 2 man bunker + dps bots on mid point, an MM/Warrior bot on far point, and roamer bots attacking your home point.)

Essentially, this Tutorial is actually a new game-mode in a way, and can be used by players (tutors) and devs alike to teach new players the ins-and-outs of sPvP.

There is only so much you can learn from fighting singular objectives in Heart of the Mists….and most new players don’t even know those exist. (the class bots, chieftain, lord, etc. bots off in the middle of nowhere)

tl;dr Add a bot match mode (Tutorial) with bots that exhibit basic sPvP behavior (1 home, 2/3 mid, 1/2 roamer bots) with displayed hints/tips for new players to learn.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

So to clarify the thought behind:

1. Must be able to be hot join-able

One thing we really want to do is promote and grow the player base. Now, what does that mean? When a new player (either to PvP or to the game) joins PvP for the first time they go to custom arenas to play and learn the game in a less competitive environment. We want those players to retain and work their way up to the competitive game modes: Solo or Team queue. So the meaning behind that statement is that the game mode must work for both casual and competitive environments to help grow the community.

So, do u want a new game mode where people quit in easy way, go to spectator and switch team, match starts in 1vs2, or when people press the play now button find matches totally imbalanced in score and team composition?

How people can think a new game mode “hot joinable” if the actual hot join structure is really really bad?

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Alright so now that we have flushed out some ideas let me give you some guide lines and let me know if we can design around it.

Hugh, could you clarify if the bullet points you presented are prerequisites (the words you use are “guide lines” and “standards”) to all future PvP modes? If so, I believe to that be the wrong route to take.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

1. Must be able to be hot join-able
* Not easily griefed and allow players to be able to jump in and out
2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard
3. Can fit our standard PvP match time (15 mins)
4. (Would Be Nice) Shout castable

Alright let me know how your ideas fit or change with these standards.

I find point #2 very disagreeable. Even within just the “Battlegrounds” mode (or sPVP/tPVP as it’s called in GW2) in other MMORPGS, including GW1, there is commonly variety in team size. The variety in team sizes allows for not only new map mechanics that wouldn’t have been possible with smaller team sizes, but it also makes for a much more welcoming entry point for PVE’ers and beginners, as individual failings are easily disguised and overlooked. With a PvP player-base that so many believe to be super small, I don’t think you should toss out any options that could invite more players.

Point #3 is similarly disagreeable. Just to mention WoW, as it’s the most likely and familiar reference point to most, their larger (team and map size) and longer Battleground maps like Alterac Valley and Isle of Conquest, can feel and look much more epic than their smaller maps because besides the scenery, wide vistas and airships, the longer matches feel like a little war, rather than a mere skirmish.

Given that all we have in GW2’s PvP is Battleground PvP (PvP modes insistent on a need for map mechanics), with no word still on alternate modes that focus purely on PvP (Arena), I think it unwisely limiting to propose future PvP modes under such restrictive parameters.

What we need is more PvP modes that allow for new and creative combat possibilities, not more barriers to ensure much the same.

Yeah i agree, what’s the sense to create another game mode based on 5vs5.

We already have a 5vs5 and it’s enough, because it’s pretty hard to schedule together 5 men and it’s the main reason beacuse a lot of teams have a very short life.

So explore other size, 2vs2 and 3vs3 over all.

I think hot join 5v5 doesn’t work and is the wrong avenue. Better would be, for pros like newbies alike, a 2v2/3v3 solo queue. Not only would it reduce wait times since teamlets would be filled up quicker, individual contribution would be greatly magnified meaning that there should be less 10v500 blowouts and leaving with a even the most basic MMR system. Losing the first couple times to determine the proper MMR stats isn’t as traumatic for newbies as some devs think.

MarkPhilips.5169:

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

So to clarify the thought behind:

1. Must be able to be hot join-able

One thing we really want to do is promote and grow the player base. Now, what does that mean? When a new player (either to PvP or to the game) joins PvP for the first time they go to custom arenas to play and learn the game in a less competitive environment. We want those players to retain and work their way up to the competitive game modes: Solo or Team queue. So the meaning behind that statement is that the game mode must work for both casual and competitive environments to help grow the community.

So, do u want a new game mode where people quit in easy way, go to spectator and switch team, match starts in 1vs2, or when people press the play now button find matches totally imbalanced in score and team composition?

How people can think a new game mode “hot joinable” if the actual hot join structure is really really bad?

I agree with MarkPhilips.5169 and cant find solution… unless it is Free4All Death Match.

Just make 2 new game modes, one for hotjoins and other (moba ^^) that will be the e-sports (I still believe it).

About other topics

2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard: Moba fits

3. Can fit our standard PvP match time (15 mins): As GW2 combat is fast, it may be that the matches last less than that, even whit progression. But everyone knows that moba matches take time.

I have no problems with lengthy matches, progression helps on this issue, because the beginning of the game is slow, then the player can play more calmly…

A game of capture points consumes me more than a lengthy game of moba, because the game starts raced and don’t stop. GW2 is a action game, but does not need be raced as well.

4. (Would Be Nice) Shout castable: Starting slowly, the caster have more time to talk about everyone and his builds.

Has many more “WOW!!!!” moments than capture mode, such as the destruction of each tower that’s enough, since shoutcasters scream “like” a goal in soccer when this happens… and no one scream when someone capture a point on Capture mode.
Capture mode only have 2 moments like that in my opinion, a Lord Rush that turns the match in the end and Meditation of Tranquility.

Destroying towers is a objective a lot easier to turn the game which makes it worth playing/watch until the end. In capture mode is not cool when a team have many points and the other team will not be able to overcome, the only thing that the shoutcaster can do is lament for losing team.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

So to clarify the thought behind:

1. Must be able to be hot join-able

One thing we really want to do is promote and grow the player base. Now, what does that mean? When a new player (either to PvP or to the game) joins PvP for the first time they go to custom arenas to play and learn the game in a less competitive environment. We want those players to retain and work their way up to the competitive game modes: Solo or Team queue. So the meaning behind that statement is that the game mode must work for both casual and competitive environments to help grow the community.

I think you should achieve that in a totally different way.
Hotjoin can be really frustrating in the way they are now: no one like to lose, even in hotjoin, specially if you are outnumbered, and/or if your mates keep leaving/switching team, specially if the team size is small.

In a sense, what is MOBA exept a GvG with different mechanics ? I don’t think those two are very different. You could nearly do GvG in a moba !

Maybe a problem with gw2’s mechanics is that it’s not really supposed to encourage specific roles (GvG and MOBA do !) and that’s perhaps against the ‘’you can do what you want’’ politic. Am I right ? What do you guys think about that ? Any recommandation ?

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

I am really loving the discussion going on in this thread. This is a testament to how awesome our community is! Alright so now that we have flushed out some ideas let me give you some guide lines and let me know if we can design around it.

1. Must be able to be hot join-able
* Not easily griefed and allow players to be able to jump in and out
2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard
3. Can fit our standard PvP match time (15 mins)
4. (Would Be Nice) Shout castable

Alright let me know how your ideas fit or change with these standards.

1. It would really help to introduce when there are more game – types available in GW2, the “Training – Arena” from the Isle of the Nameless as it was in GW1. For those who do not know the “Training – Arena” from GW1 on the Isle of Nameless worked as a tutorial for the different kind of game types. Basically was Player vs NPC – Team.

I think GW2 PvP will benefit tremendously from a system like that, as it will teach all the basic rules and mechanics that a new player must know. The reason behind is that currently the new player will just getting dropped in and tries to figure alone how is it work. That is leading sometimes to frustration to an more or less experienced player that happens to be in a group with a new one.

So yeah. I think every new game mode or existing one will fit those guide-lines. And as you correctly said, PvP needs the casuals and non – casuals alike in order to thrive.

Regards

Seed

Reax.1806:

As a more PvP oriented player, I REALLY like to play:

1) Free for all arena: A big arena where you can just go in and attack any player.

2) Fast Deathmatch: 5×5. First team to stomp other team wins. Team with more stomps wins. Stomped = out. 5 min duration. A simpler map, not many places to hide/line of sight.

3) Duel mode: (right click > invite to duel > duel > 3min duration).

Excellent ideas.

DITTO on the simpler maps. What ever happened to an even playing field? How about just one simple arena? No hills, no hiding places, no strategies to exploit, just flat, open space for COMBAT.

JTGuevara.9018:

Reax.1806:

As a more PvP oriented player, I REALLY like to play:

1) Free for all arena: A big arena where you can just go in and attack any player.

2) Fast Deathmatch: 5×5. First team to stomp other team wins. Team with more stomps wins. Stomped = out. 5 min duration. A simpler map, not many places to hide/line of sight.

3) Duel mode: (right click > invite to duel > duel > 3min duration).

Excellent ideas.

DITTO on the simpler maps. What ever happened to an even playing field? How about just one simple arena? No hills, no hiding places, no strategies to exploit, just flat, open space for COMBAT.

And on top of that, not that much work for devs to create the maps ^^.
They could even just use the Obsidium Sanctum arena, put it in i’ts own pvp map and use it for these game modes.

Heck they could do it with a seperate npc, add a [BETA] tag like the current lfg system, and see how the community responds.

Strategy based PvP

Of course, team arena PvP is already based on strategy, but I want a game mode that takes this to another level. Moba gameplay does this in a way, by having many more strategic choices available after the game has started.

It has some elements of WvW in it, but doesn’t last a week/allow for obscene stat advantages.

The main problem with Hugh’s 4 guidelines would lie in the 15 minute duration of the match.

The pace of the game could be a bit too high at 15 minutes, to really make use of strategical plans. Since I imagine it would require players to communicate through chat and invest time in building up tactical advantages. I suggest doubling this to 30 minutes.

Players could join late, but teamswapping like in solo-que is a no-go.

Ingredients with bulletpoints

• Partially moba, lots of npcs, items and structures, but no leveling/skill development.
• Match is won by killing the enemy lord/destroying their castle.
• A new currency (platinum?) only to be used within the match. Players can decide to add platinum to the upgrade fund or spend it themself.
• Large map.
• Pre-fight strategy discussion time. 1 or 2 minutes could be enough.
• A slow start, working towards the peak of the action… the endgame.
• A large emphasis on secondary objectives.
• Tactical dilemmas come up frequently.
• Good use of the environment has to be important.
• Roles for scouts/skirmishers. Knowing what the enemy is up to is vital.
• NPC´s are important in preparing for the endgame.
• As we near the end of the match, respawn timers are high. (Perhaps each death increases the timer, perhaps it increases regularly by x seconds per minute)

More bulletpoints.

NPCs

• Monsters can be slain for buffs/environmental weapons/platinum/other goals.
• Guards will patrol the area of your keep, much like in WvW.
• A force of guards is send out every now and then to attack the enemy castle. (And kill any enemy guards on the way)

Upgrades

Paid for with platinum gained from completing bounties/killing enemies/running errands. These would be the GW2 version of leveling up in a moba style game.

• Guard slaying (5 ranks): +10 to +50% damage vs NPC’s/ -10 to -50% damage taken from NPC’s.
• Reinforcements: 1 extra NPC with every patrol spawned.
• Guard strength: guards are now level 81/82.
• Gate upgrades: stronger gates.
• Etc.

Buffs

These would be the equivalent of items in a moba. They are purchased with platinum from vendors that spawn on the map

Team wide buff ideas:

• Essence of celerity: +20% endurance regen + 20% movement speed.
• Grail of might: +200 vitality + 1 stack of might (15 seconds) every 5 seconds.
• Armor of salvation: +200 toughness + minor health regeneration.

Individual buff ideas:

• Vampiric attacks
• Speed buff
• Instant skill recharge of all your skills at a certain vendor/boss.
• Etc.

Environmental weapons

These can be found in remote areas of the map. Perhaps bought or dropped by a monster. They are one-use items. Typically best saved for end-game clashes.

• Bell. 4 second AoE daze.
• Spicy kittentail. 10 second AoE burning spot. (Like the WvW mortar fire)
• Dust. 10 seconds AoE stealth.
• Etc.

Environmental advantages

• A plateau, so high that it kills you when you’re pushed off unless you have a falling trait.
• Underground sneak paths with potential cave-ins.
• Terrain that can be transformed through upgrades. Say, made into a minefield.
• Chokepoints
• NPC wardens that require a fee for passing through their lair allowing for a shortcut.

Well… I guess you get the idea.

TL/DR version:

Some ingredients from moba style gameplay, but without leveling. And less of a focus on ‘laning’. Some ingredients from WvW.

Most important features: building towards a critical end-game. Lots of tactical decisions are made on the way there. The match changes drastically from start to finish. The impact of strategy makes matches surprising and different from other matches.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

So to clarify the thought behind:

1. Must be able to be hot join-able

One thing we really want to do is promote and grow the player base. Now, what does that mean? When a new player (either to PvP or to the game) joins PvP for the first time they go to custom arenas to play and learn the game in a less competitive environment. We want those players to retain and work their way up to the competitive game modes: Solo or Team queue. So the meaning behind that statement is that the game mode must work for both casual and competitive environments to help grow the community.

Just add a queue with hidden ranking (aka, the “unranked queue”), have its matchmaking consider player’s ranks in its calculations and lock solo and team queue behind player’s ranking. Like League of Legends does it. And then, you have a formula that is both very effective and very elegant.

It would allow you to put aside this unneeded restriction, because with hotjoin, you’re restricting what could be potentially good ideas for the sake of making your game mode fit both a structured queue and a non-structured (aka, hotjoining) experience.

Having a “newbie”/ “experimental” queue is a double-win, because it actually teaches new players good habits before they enter in the competitive scene, something that hotjoin does not, and because it makes it so you’re not forced to scrap interesting ideas while designing a game mode for the sake of having it fit a structureless, random, chaotic, ineffective-at-teaching hotjoin system.

Leave Custom Arenas as some kind of experimental lab for crazy matchups or for private rooms, which is what it does best at.

I do not believe making a game hot joinable is the thing that makes new players play PvP games. How fun it is to play when your in the game is far more important. How easy it is to join a match is only a small part of a game mode’s success.

I agree that having a game easy to jump in and out of is a good thing to aim for though, and I do not see why any of the options already stated in this thread cannot be made hot joinable. That is merely a connection method, not a game play mechanic.

As to the other criteria mentioned, I feel that these are somewhat limiting. 5v5 is ok for quick skirmishes. Yes, that works well for eSports and tournament and competitive play, but I do not feel that all PvP game modes should live up to this formula. I will add to this later. However, I do feel that short siege/assault mode games could easily fit the 5v5 and 15 minute criterias, as well as the hot join and castable criterias mentioned. I also think a MOBA style game could be created to fit the 5v5 and 15 minute limts.

Assault Mode:

- The defending team has all capture points and a base. They can teleport to each capture waypoint that is not contested.
– The attacking players start with a base and can also teleport to uncontested captured points.
– The match has a 15 minute time limit for the attacking team to take the enemy base.
– The route to the defender’s base can be split into two or more (or less) paths, with two or more (or less) capture point options. Forcing teams to split and fight with different combinations.
– Side mechanics, much like Conquest maps, can be added to create unique twists to each map. For example, a summoning event could start and the winning team could summon a storm to block the enemy team from teleporting to captured points, slowing their progress a little.

Siege Mode:

- The defending team has a base, complete with defenses. They spawn at the far rear of the base on a timed respawn so attacking players have time to take the base while their defeated opponents wait to spawn.
– The attacking players have siege equipment which needs to be built first, then moved into position to attack the gate/walls. The siege equipment must be protected from any defending players who try to leave their base to slow the attackers.
– Each base can be attacked from two or more positions, encouraging teams to split.
– Special buffs could be applied to each team depending on their location. For example, the attackers could get a buff while outside the defenders base and visa versa with the defenders getting a buff while inside the base. So defenders have a choice to fight easy on the walls once the siege is up or fight harder to slow/stop them outside. While the attackers have an easier time sieging the walls but must put in more effort once inside for the final push.
– Events inside and out could trigger, based on unique map mechanics. For example, Siege supplies could drop somewhere in a neutral zone (no buffs for either team) and the winning team gains a powerful siege device to use to attack/defend.

Now, as mentioned above I do not feel that all game modes should have to stick to tight criterias such as 5v5 or 15 minute match times. I agree that there needs to be more tournament/competitive viable game types added, but I also feel there needs to be some more casual formats added. Not everyone wants to take part in a tournament or be at the top of their PvP game. Many casual PvP players simply want to jump into a fun game and have some light competetive content to play.

Game modes like large scale assault/siege would benefit much more from having the option of more players on each team and longer timers. While we have large scale combat in WvW, it is not in a controlled environment and therefore not on demand. On demand being the key factor here. By adding larger game modes into sPvP, you will increase the number of casual PvP players in the mists who could then go on to do other activities and maybe even take part in tournaments.

I really feel that you need to add both highly competitive and tournament friendly modes AND more casual modes. Only adding modes that fit tight critiria will only serve to limit what types of player play sPvP in GW2.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

I am really loving the discussion going on in this thread. This is a testament to how awesome our community is! Alright so now that we have flushed out some ideas let me give you some guide lines and let me know if we can design around it.

1. Must be able to be hot join-able
* Not easily griefed and allow players to be able to jump in and out
2. Must fit the 5 on 5 standard
3. Can fit our standard PvP match time (15 mins)
4. (Would Be Nice) Shout castable

Alright let me know how your ideas fit or change with these standards.

Once again i’ll throw my 2cents..

I dont think MOBA style have much to do with gw2 gameplay.
GW2 is much more dynamic and its strength is in teamfights, while on mobas (im thinking to LoL) you dont really have teamfights…. you have teamganks.

If i could design a new game mode i would focus on what is good in gw2 not about good aspects of other games. If someone really like mobas it should play mobas, not try to force a game like gw2 into a bad imitation of lol or dota.

So… my suggestion would be a game mode focusing on team fights, so a team deathmatch arena mode, but not just a “jump in and mindlessly kill”, it needs some objectives to have some kind of depth.
Depth is what matters in a game if you want it to be interesting at high level of play.

What is a good way to create depth in a game ? Choices.
The moment a player has to choose between two or more actions you can highlight the difference between a new player and a more experienced one, which is what you want in a competitive scene.

In the actual game mode, point capture, the main choise is how to rotate and who have to do that. This often requires the team to split up on 2 or 3 points, so ppl need to have self sufficient builds that can do good in a 1v1 situation.

In order to promote a teamfight based mode we need some objectives where a team can move toghether to face the other team.

Some time ago i posted something about a possible team deathmatch mode: the battle for the gods, or something like that (thinking about how many deities there are in gw2 world). The idea was to fight in an arena where there are some altars on which some buffs could spawn in specific situations.
Those buffs require X seconds to commune, and once you get the buff your whole team gets the benefits (this could be a similar idea to Baron Nashor mechanic in LoL).
When the match starts there is one buff spawning on a central location, so that both teams have to fight there to get the buff.
Once the buff is taken 2 more buffs spawns (in 2 different locations) so that each team gotta decide which one to go to.
These buffs doesnt necessary need to increase stats, they might have different effects or trigger something on the map, the important thing would be that the first buff must give an advantage to the team that takes it while among the other 2 buffs there must be one able to counter the first in some way, so that the team that lost the first teamfight has a chance to come back.

Each buff-spawn location could favor a particular playstyle, for example: a buff could be on a elevated spot so that positioning and knockbacks could be relevant (not like on skyhammer where you get instakilled, i mean like clocktower where pushing down someone can make them loose time or save a teammate and so on…)
Another one could be in a small area with higher ledges around the point that gives advantages to ranged aoe, another location might work the opposite way, with an open space where ranged glass cannon can hardly kite, and so on..

This way every team should know where their setup works best, and if their opponents setup has some advantages in a specific location.
This wouldnt matter much for new players, but would open up some depth for pro players.

- it can be played in hotjoin mode (even if i dont see any point in hotjoin)
- it fits a 5v5 standard
- it can last 15min
- it would be nice to watch

The Lost Witch I love your idea !

The Lost Witch.7601:

Strategy based PvP

Of course, team arena PvP is already based on strategy, but I want a game mode that takes this to another level. Moba gameplay does this in a way, by having many more strategic choices available after the game has started.

It has some elements of WvW in it, but doesn’t last a week/allow for obscene stat advantages.

The main problem with Hugh’s 4 guidelines would lie in the 15 minute duration of the match.

The pace of the game could be a bit too high at 15 minutes, to really make use of strategical plans. Since I imagine it would require players to communicate through chat and invest time in building up tactical advantages. I suggest doubling this to 30 minutes.

Players could join late, but teamswapping like in solo-que is a no-go.

Ingredients with bulletpoints

• Partially moba, lots of npcs, items and structures, but no leveling/skill development.
• Match is won by killing the enemy lord/destroying their castle.
• A new currency (platinum?) only to be used within the match. Players can decide to add platinum to the upgrade fund or spend it themself.
• Large map.
• Pre-fight strategy discussion time. 1 or 2 minutes could be enough.
• A slow start, working towards the peak of the action… the endgame.
• A large emphasis on secondary objectives.
• Tactical dilemmas come up frequently.
• Good use of the environment has to be important.
• Roles for scouts/skirmishers. Knowing what the enemy is up to is vital.
• NPC´s are important in preparing for the endgame.
• As we near the end of the match, respawn timers are high. (Perhaps each death increases the timer, perhaps it increases regularly by x seconds per minute)

More bulletpoints.

NPCs

• Monsters can be slain for buffs/environmental weapons/platinum/other goals.
• Guards will patrol the area of your keep, much like in WvW.
• A force of guards is send out every now and then to attack the enemy castle. (And kill any enemy guards on the way)

Upgrades

Paid for with platinum gained from completing bounties/killing enemies/running errands. These would be the GW2 version of leveling up in a moba style game.

• Guard slaying (5 ranks): +10 to +50% damage vs NPC’s/ -10 to -50% damage taken from NPC’s.
• Reinforcements: 1 extra NPC with every patrol spawned.
• Guard strength: guards are now level 81/82.
• Gate upgrades: stronger gates.
• Etc.

Buffs

These would be the equivalent of items in a moba. They are purchased with platinum from vendors that spawn on the map

Team wide buff ideas:

• Essence of celerity: +20% endurance regen + 20% movement speed.
• Grail of might: +200 vitality + 1 stack of might (15 seconds) every 5 seconds.
• Armor of salvation: +200 toughness + minor health regeneration.

Individual buff ideas:

• Vampiric attacks
• Speed buff
• Instant skill recharge of all your skills at a certain vendor/boss.
• Etc.

Environmental weapons

These can be found in remote areas of the map. Perhaps bought or dropped by a monster. They are one-use items. Typically best saved for end-game clashes.

• Bell. 4 second AoE daze.
• Spicy kittentail. 10 second AoE burning spot. (Like the WvW mortar fire)
• Dust. 10 seconds AoE stealth.
• Etc.

Environmental advantages

• A plateau, so high that it kills you when you’re pushed off unless you have a falling trait.
• Underground sneak paths with potential cave-ins.
• Terrain that can be transformed through upgrades. Say, made into a minefield.
• Chokepoints
• NPC wardens that require a fee for passing through their lair allowing for a shortcut.

Well… I guess you get the idea.

TL/DR version:

Some ingredients from moba style gameplay, but without leveling. And less of a focus on ‘laning’. Some ingredients from WvW.

Most important features: building towards a critical end-game. Lots of tactical decisions are made on the way there. The match changes drastically from start to finish. The impact of strategy makes matches surprising and different from other matches.

SOMEBODY HIRE THIS WITCH IMMEDIATELY!!! This sounds like a TON of fun