A premade group of any size (2/3/4/5) is weighted as the highest division player within the group. MMRs can stay as they are for matchmaking.
Done. The only downside exists for those within the premade group (they are carrying the lower division player), and they would know that going into the party. Anyone can still play with their friends of any rank, without the other team losing 2 pips to Legendary/Amber duo queues all day or higher ranks cheesing their way through multi-pip wins and positive pip losses. And higher ranks can still get faster queues.
1) They would never in a million years take your suggestion. It’s an MMO, you can play with whoever you’d like.
2) Your suggestion wouldnt even address Ruby/Emerald or Diamond/Sapphire, which is equally a problem right now as queuing with Amber. Nobody likes losing multiple pips to those kinds of teams.
3) I don’t see any reason why my suggestion isn’t practical. It’s directly lifted from other ELO games and has already been implemented successfully.
Which elo games are you talking about? Most elo games I know take an average, and then split rewards according to that average.
Your suggestion might address one problem, but it creates another. I personally have friends who either don’t have much time to pvp, or prefers dueling more than tpvp. As such they are in lower divisions. Yet they still want to queue with me, but they aren’t as good as I am. Wouldn’t be fair to them.
Lord Ninth \\ Champion Magus
- Primordial Legend Semi-active.
They should just have solo queue back so you can play with your friends and do whatever while I can play with a bunch of other people who are all soloing.
Your suggestion might address one problem, but it creates another. I personally have friends who either don’t have much time to pvp, or prefers dueling more than tpvp. As such they are in lower divisions. Yet they still want to queue with me, but they aren’t as good as I am. Wouldn’t be fair to them.
Your suggestion: they can’t queue with you at all, period.
My suggestion: they can queue with you, you just might not want to because you’d have to carry them.
I’m not sure I see your point. Mine is clearly the better alternative.
Your suggestion might address one problem, but it creates another. I personally have friends who either don’t have much time to pvp, or prefers dueling more than tpvp. As such they are in lower divisions. Yet they still want to queue with me, but they aren’t as good as I am. Wouldn’t be fair to them.
Your suggestion: they can’t queue with you at all, period.
My suggestion: they can queue with you, you just might not want to because you’d have to carry them.
I’m not sure I see your point. Mine is clearly the better alternative.
No, they can’t queue with me if they are more than 2 divisions below. That’s okay. I wouldn’t want to have skewed matches just because I’m higher ranked.
Lord Ninth \\ Champion Magus
- Primordial Legend Semi-active.
Which elo games are you talking about? Most elo games I know take an average, and then split rewards according to that average.
^This
Ppl gain and lose pips based on the average of the oposing team compared to their own division. Fair, easy and stops all the smurfing.
Are you guys serious? That is ALREADY how it works. What you’re suggesting is the same broken kitten system we already have.
The reason smurfing is a thing because Legendary+Amber offset eachother to approximately a Sapphire. So when that Legendary Duo gets matched with 3 Rubies, their TEAM is essentially Ruby + Sapphire. So when they go up against a team of 5 Rubies, the 5 Ruby team is favored and can potentially lose 2 pips for a loss to a team with a Legendary (and the legendary can even gain pips when losing to a 5 ruby team).
My suggestion would weight the two man duo of Legendary + Amber where it belongs: as Legendary. It is fairer for the opponents, and only has an effect on the person choosing to group with the lower rank. Which is how it should be, IMO.
Are you guys serious? That is ALREADY how it works. What you’re suggesting is the same broken kitten system we already have.
The reason smurfing is a thing because Legendary+Amber offset eachother to approximately a Sapphire. So when that Legendary Duo gets matched with 3 Rubies, their TEAM is essentially Ruby + Sapphire. So when they go up against a team of 5 Rubies, the 5 Ruby team is favored and can potentially lose 2 pips for a loss to a team with a Legendary (and the legendary can even gain pips when losing to a 5 ruby team).
My suggestion would weight the two man duo of Legendary + Amber where it belongs: as Legendary. It is fairer for the opponents, and only has an effect on the person choosing to group with the lower rank. Which is how it should be, IMO.
You dont seem to get it, which is ok. Ill explain.
If that Legendary + amber duo q in GW2 they BOTH gain pips as if they are Ruby/ Sapphire as you stated….
How it should work:
The legendary should gain nothing….while the amber gains a lot untill he gets closer to his teammates division.
World of Warcraft has individual rating/MMR aswell (so players with varrying ratings can team up). Why dont they struggle with this type of MMR abuse? Since they applied the bolded sentence to their system.
Heh, I don’t seem to get it? You couldn’t be more irrelevant right now. Pips are a team reward, not an individual reward. An individuals MMR already fluctuates in the exact manner you are suggesting. That has nothing to do with pips.
Asking for Pips to be a personal reward has nothing to do with smurfing, because opponents would STILL lose multiple pips based on the opposing teams rating which is STILL effected by the Amber. Your suggestion just proposes to punish everybody equally rather than FIX the problem.
Heh, I don’t seem to get it? You couldn’t be more irrelevant right now. Pips are a team reward, not an individual reward. An individuals MMR already fluctuates in the exact manner you are suggesting. That has nothing to do with pips.
Asking for Pips to be a personal reward has nothing to do with smurfing, because opponents would STILL lose multiple pips based on the opposing teams rating which is STILL effected by the Amber.
The direct opposite is true in fact. This is the only thing that is relevant.
It needs to be individual if you want to create a fair system.
Legendaries are playing with ambers since they get rewarded for their effort as if they are sapphire. By making it individual they will gain nothing and lose a lot untill the average is relatively close. So they will stop doing it + try to find people who are close.
If you apply your suggestion youre basicly screwing the people who have no ill intend. That random group of mixed division guildmates is now labeled as diamond or legendary since they want to take a guildie that is a hardcore pvper. Even tho their average teamskill would be closer to the bottom of Sapphire.
Or maybe he shouldnt play at all and stick to soloqueue?
False. You want to make it individual to punish the legendary, yet it does nothing to help the opposing team and nothing to balance the rest of the legendaries team. It also brings up the horrific side effect of individuals no longer trying when its no longer beneficial to them, despite it being so for their teammates.
I’m not going to continue with this irrelevance. And to be quite frank its relatively asinine.
False. You want to make it individual to punish the legendary, yet it does nothing to help the opposing team and nothing to balance the rest of the legendaries team. It also brings up the horrific side effect of individuals no longer trying when its no longer beneficial to them, despite it being so for their teammates.
I’m not going to continue with this irrelevance. And to be quite frank its relatively asinine.
Since it shouldnt. That average division could be where they belong. The only time it isnt where they belong:
- if they abuse; which will stop happening if you make it individual based.
- if the lower tier player is better than expected. Which means he should gain a lot to get to the MMR/ div where he belongs. So pip gain for him and pip loss for the opposing team is just. Thats how a working MMR/rating system works.
You literally make no sense with those “sideeffects” you speak off. So who stops trying?
World of warcraft has a an individual based rating/ MMR that goes by “my rules”. Do you think anyone complains about their rating/MMR system the last few years?
Im really tempted to make a thread on the wow forums where i introduce your idea: base the matchmaking on the highest rated person in your team.
Dont worry about it Locuz. That Celeras guy makes no sense.
He basicly wants to get rewarded for fighting a legendary + amber as if they are two legendaries. Since 1 legendary in your team automatically means your entire team is up to par with that right?
Seriously guy? I know what WoW does. Personal rating was implemented to combat people constantly jumping teams. It did nothing to resolve smurfing, players just formed new teams and steamrolled through the lower ranks. It was completely independent of matchmaking and rewarding the teams. Not to mention that there IS NO SOLO QUEUE in WoW rated arena.
It’s not a difficult concept.
-The current system: Rewards the legendary for playing with a smurf, negatively impacts the entire other team. +1, -5.
-Locuz’s asinine system: Punishes the legendary for playing with a smurf, still negatively impacts the other team. -6.
-My proposed solution: “Punishes” the legendary only in the sense that they have to carry their own teammate they voluntarily partied with, and positively impacts the other team. “-1” if you want to call it that, +5.
Seriously guy? I know what WoW does. Personal rating was implemented to combat people constantly jumping teams. It did nothing to resolve smurfing, players just formed new teams and steamrolled through the lower ranks. Not to mention that there IS NO SOLO QUEUE in WoW rated arena.
It’s not a difficult concept.
-The current system: Rewards the legendary for playing with a smurf, negatively impacts the entire other team. +1, -5.
-Locuz’s asinine system: Punishes the legendary for playing with a smurf, still negatively impacts the other team. -6.
-My proposed solution: “Punishes” the legendary only in the sense that they have to carry their own teammate they voluntarily partied with, and positively impacts the other team. “-1” if you want to call it that, +5.
Go on and tell me what is better for the game.
1] Wow only has personal ratings now. Kinda like GW2. So forming new teams does nothing. The system matches u vs the average of your teams MMR to match you accordingly + rewards you based on your own personal rating vs the teams average.
Even before that people didnt make new teams and steamroll through ranks. Matchmaking was based on MMR. So we would face teams with similar MMR from game 1. Your team would climb fast untill the average MMR.
2] GW2 has no soloq either. The Ladder in system in wow is comparable. Soloq in GW2 is comparable with queueing with randoms from tradechat.
3] So if a legendary groups up with 4 players during their first day of playing, you would match them with the abjured TCG or … ? Since thats what youre saying.
Locuz system doesnt impact the other team at all. They are players who are on the average of the teams MMR/div. They are facing both stronger and weaker opponents but on average the same as them. They will gain pips accordingly. The only thing it negatively impacts is the legendary.
Yes ofcourse your system is great for the other team. They get pips as if the entire team was legendary while 4 of them where amber.
One big mistake is that the op assumes every amber/low division player is a smurf. I think most of them are actually random players from the hotm or friends that haven’t played much yet. Punishing people for playing with people from lower divisions is bad because it discourages teamplay as many people seem to care a lot about pips and would simply stop queuing with less experienced players in fear of losing progress.
If you want to discourage smurfing there has to be some sort of barrier before you can go ranked. Afaik this is already the case for gw2 as you need to be rank 20. However, I do not know how long it takes to get there but my impression on EU is that most low division players are not smurfs but simply belong where they are.
Personally, I think that losing more than 1 pip as a solo player for losing vs a team of 3+ people is more of an issue, because especially in the current meta game team composition, rotations and therefore communication matter a lot more than mechanical skill (at least once you have reached a certain level of play)
tl dr; smurfing is not the problem, game needs to more solo friendly/needs solo queue
3] So if a legendary groups up with 4 players during their first day of playing, you would match them with the abjured TCG or … ? Since thats what youre saying.
As opposed to the current system where they are matched with teams they easily dominate, or lose no pips if they somehow manage to lose?
Because matching a legendaries party of hand picked teammates as a legendary party is somehow more absurd than what we currently have?
The legendary chose his team mates. The team he is facing in the lower ranks did not choose to engage a player out of their league. Who should be punished for the legendaries decision? I say the Legendary. You say the other team. Great. There’s nothing else that needs to be said.
Yes please punish people for playing with their friends and/or players that are worse than them, because more arrogant anti-social self proclaimed “pro” players is what this game needs. Brilliant idea.
Which elo games are you talking about? Most elo games I know take an average, and then split rewards according to that average.
^This
Ppl gain and lose pips based on the average of the oposing team compared to their own division. Fair, easy and stops all the smurfing.
Are you guys serious? That is ALREADY how it works. What you’re suggesting is the same broken kitten system we already have.
The reason smurfing is a thing because Legendary+Amber offset eachother to approximately a Sapphire. So when that Legendary Duo gets matched with 3 Rubies, their TEAM is essentially Ruby + Sapphire. So when they go up against a team of 5 Rubies, the 5 Ruby team is favored and can potentially lose 2 pips for a loss to a team with a Legendary (and the legendary can even gain pips when losing to a 5 ruby team).
My suggestion would weight the two man duo of Legendary + Amber where it belongs: as Legendary. It is fairer for the opponents, and only has an effect on the person choosing to group with the lower rank. Which is how it should be, IMO.
Considering the huge skill gap between 90th percentile (ruby) and top .1% (legendary) a sapphire is only a paper average between amber and legendary. In practice the legendary or diamond is skilled enough to more than make up for the amber’s lack of expertise assuming it’s even a legit amber and not a sandbagger. Otherwise you might have a ruby for example with amber credentials.
Yes please punish people for playing with their friends and/or players that are worse than them, because more arrogant anti-social self proclaimed “pro” players is what this game needs. Brilliant idea.
You’d rather reward them with easy mode pips and punish the 5 players on the other team.
Considering the huge skill gap between 90th percentile (ruby) and top .1% (legendary) a sapphire is only a paper average between amber and legendary. In practice the legendary or diamond is skilled enough to more than make up for the amber’s lack of expertise assuming it’s even a legit amber and not a sandbagger. Otherwise you might have a ruby for example with amber credentials.
I agree, they do more than make up for it. However for the matchmaking purposes, division is a flat 50% of the weight and MMR fluctuates hugely in this game. Therefore the paper average is reasonably close to how the game interprets the duo, and that’s a big part of the problem.
You’d rather reward them with easy mode pips and punish the 5 players on the other team.
Cool, thanks for your input.
You would rather match new players with the abjured since they have 1 higher rated teammate?
Lets say i (as former semi pro basketball player) whent out and teamed up with your mum or your 6 year old sister for a game of basketball. Would it be fair to match us against 2 other former semi pros?
Yes please punish people for playing with their friends and/or players that are worse than them, because more arrogant anti-social self proclaimed “pro” players is what this game needs. Brilliant idea.
You’d rather reward them with easy mode pips and punish the 5 players on the other team.
Cool, thanks for your input.
Yes, if I had to chose between encouraging and discouraging team play, I would chose the first option. After all this is an online game and as such it is about playing with other people.
It does nothing to discourage team play regardless. The only player affected is the one who chose to take this fictional “new player” (and totally not their friend on a new f2p account, or experienced player who just never pvp’d this season yet) as a teammate.
Risky for the high MMR/ division player tho. Theyd lose a lot of MMR / pips if they lose.
Once they get to legendary (many are stopping even lower) there is not much of an incentive to get to 2x or 3x legendary.
Sure for the tippy top who are competing for leaderboard will want to keep going. But toward the end of the season a lot of people will not want to grind anymore and go “whatevs, I’m cashing in”
Seasons reset so it doesn’t matter at a certain point and you can bet it’ll become quite rampart after the first month or so.
Now, if the seasons where shorter maybe it could work out better.
I guess. But then we’d have gold for pips even more so than now as lower amber players could get ‘power leveled’ quite a bit easier than now that way.
Instead of people complaining about how it is currently, everyone would just complain they bought there way up or a friend leveled them up.
And they should gain a lot for winning vs players playing in higher divisions. Just like that the higher division player shouldnt gain a lot if they win (and lose a lot if they lose).
One big mistake is that the op assumes every amber/low division player is a smurf. I think most of them are actually random players from the hotm or friends that haven’t played much yet. Punishing people for playing with people from lower divisions is bad because it discourages teamplay as many people seem to care a lot about pips and would simply stop queuing with less experienced players in fear of losing progress.
If you want to discourage smurfing there has to be some sort of barrier before you can go ranked. Afaik this is already the case for gw2 as you need to be rank 20. However, I do not know how long it takes to get there but my impression on EU is that most low division players are not smurfs but simply belong where they are.
Personally, I think that losing more than 1 pip as a solo player for losing vs a team of 3+ people is more of an issue, because especially in the current meta game team composition, rotations and therefore communication matter a lot more than mechanical skill (at least once you have reached a certain level of play)
tl dr; smurfing is not the problem, game needs to more solo friendly/needs solo queue
You would be 100% wrong when they are grouped with diamond or higher players. Trust me on this pal. Smurfing is a gigantic problem. The level of play is ridiculous in Diamond and Legendary the vast majority of the time because its filled with players that in a good system would have a hard time getting past about division 3. These exploits were shouted all over the place at the beginning of leagues and many many people took advantage of them and continue to take advantage of them. I expect major revisions to how leagues work by the next season whether they will do the job is another story altogether. They have to know this system does not work properly.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Upcoming-Changes-for-PvP-League-Season-2
