They may actually tick at different times. When you apply a bleed, you see what is on your screen and the damage from your condi, but the total stacks may be different.
And if I apply a bleed say 0.5 seconds after you did. They would have different 1 second timer intervals.
Each player has their own ‘stack’ of bleeds, but what I don’t know is what order they get processed in. First person to give bleed? Last person to give bleed? Arbitrary ordering within an unsorted data structure?
They may actually tick at different times. When you apply a bleed, you see what is on your screen and the damage from your condi, but the total stacks may be different.
And if I apply a bleed say 0.5 seconds after you did. They would have different 1 second timer intervals.
…and what if they were applied in exacly the same time?
They may actually tick at different times. When you apply a bleed, you see what is on your screen and the damage from your condi, but the total stacks may be different.
And if I apply a bleed say 0.5 seconds after you did. They would have different 1 second timer intervals.
…and what if they were applied in exacly the same time?
Each player has their own ‘stack’ of bleeds, but what I don’t know is what order they get processed in. First person to give bleed? Last person to give bleed? Arbitrary ordering within an unsorted data structure?
It only took 3 years, but now people are going to start asking these hard questions. Condition damage in this game has always been ambiguous to the receiver.
Prime example, say a person with 0 condition damage puts 10 bleed stacks on me. And then another person B with maximized condition damage puts 1 bleed stack on me simultaneously, such that my total perceived bleed stacks are 11. On my screen, I see 11 stacks of bleed and 1 damage number appears every second for the total damage.
This number does not help me evaluate the potency of the condition or the urgency of the clearing. I guess unless I could read the number and divide by 11 really quickly and remember base bleed damage to determine the threat level.
But I guess we can’t have each bleeding source showing up as numbers on your screen or it would just be too cluttered.
I believe it’s possible because of computers. Lets use such scenario as example: We got two Warriors who attack each other on range with Rifle/LB autos, then change their weapons to Swords 1 second before they connect and they have set Sever Artery on auto. If they meet exacly on Svarnir and keep autoing without any disengages etc, won’t their autos and bleed application occur exacly at same time for entire encouncer, because computer auto attacks for them with exacly same auto attack speed?
Checked the code, it appears to be effectively random.
Hmm, I’m not sure if I like this. Would it be possible to make him immune to conditions at 0.01% health, so that there is always a clearly defined last hit on him?
I believe it’s possible because of computers. Lets use such scenario as example: We got two Warriors who attack each other on range with Rifle/LB autos, then change their weapons to Swords 1 second before they connect and they have set Sever Artery on auto. If they meet exacly on Svarnir and keep autoing without any disengages etc, won’t their autos and bleed application occur exacly at same time for entire encouncer, because computer auto attacks for them with exacly same auto attack speed?
I’m just saying it will never be “exactly” the same. One hit is gonna have its damage calculated before the other end if its in micro seconds
Evan is absolutely everywhere today, and it has been awesome.
Also, really interesting and good question. I’m not sure deciding on and coding a fix would pass a cost-benefit analysis unless a fix is deemed super quick and easy, but hopefully a story is written on the idea so they can review it for a potential future inclusion.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
What would be fair?
Last person to apply the condition that dealt the killing blow? Spam condies.
First person to create a stack that dealt the killing blow? Be the first to apply condies and keep them up the entire time.
What would be fair?
Last person to apply the condition that dealt the killing blow? Spam condies.
First person to create a stack that dealt the killing blow? Be the first to apply condies and keep them up the entire time.
Well, it depends what goal of those objectives is.
The most fair would be giving credit for kill not for killing blow, and credit would go for team which dealt the most damage to the boss. However, stealing it wouldn’t be an option anymore.
Edit;:This solution could be used only for condition damage, so bosses still could be stolen by Power based attacks.
What would be fair?
Last person to apply the condition that dealt the killing blow? Spam condies.
First person to create a stack that dealt the killing blow? Be the first to apply condies and keep them up the entire time.
If condition damage from different players get processed at the same time but in a random order, then perhaps if he dies to condition damage tick, and both teams have conditions applied, award half points to both teams (and no buff)?
That way gives a possible, but unreliable defence by applying conditions, while still leaving the door open for securing the kill with a well-timed burst between ticks.
i really feel like this is completely unnecessary, there are far more important issues in PvP to be dealt with and instead, a dev decides to communicate with us about this?
“When there’s no point in doing something, the best idea is not to do it.”
My thought would be to make it the same as if it were 2 melee attackers. Whoever did the damage that actually brought the health to 0 gets credit.
In this case, the person who used the condition that actually did the killing damage should get credit
The problem is that both teams have bleed on a monster, and the tick from either team is enough to kill the monster. Does red or blue team bleed damage get dealt first?
What would be fair?
Last person to apply the condition that dealt the killing blow? Spam condies.
First person to create a stack that dealt the killing blow? Be the first to apply condies and keep them up the entire time.
Considering the amount of condition ticks an individual player can dish out… let alone a team.. conditions shouldn’t count IMO. If conditions counted, then inanimate objects like Boxes and Doors should receive condition damages along with it. Currently, there’s a Good and a Bad for full condi builds. This huge differentiation between Condi and Raw Power should be kept apparent.
NPCs don’t usually cleanse themselves anyways… it’s 3x easier to kill NPCS with condi than power builds… It should only be last hit from raw damage.
aka FalseLights Rank: Top 250 since Season 2 #5 best gerdien in wurld
To solve the randomness of condis, why not give the kill to the team that has done the most condi damage within the last second – or – add up the stacks of each condi multiply each stack by its damage tick, add it all together and the team with the highest per tick damage count wins the kill. This would apply in the cases a condi damage tick killed the NPC.
why not make it so that condis can’t bring the hp under 1hp? that way the whole problem would be circumvented and you would truly need to lasthit it to get the kill.
why not make it so that condis can’t bring the hp under 1hp? that way the whole problem would be circumvented and you would truly need to lasthit it to get the kill.
Last hitting in this way is effectively random as well.
Perhaps the solution is that condi’s on the monsters don’t stack across teams?
So effectively you would have completely separate bleed stacks for blue and red, and whoever’s stack deals the killing blow gets the points. I assume that the stacks won’t be applied at exactly the same time, so usually one persons would tick before the others?
This seems more competitive to me than it being totally random, which is what it sounds like it currently is. Obviously this would require a fair bit of programming though, so it may not be a feasible solution.
why not make it so that condis can’t bring the hp under 1hp? that way the whole problem would be circumvented and you would truly need to lasthit it to get the kill.
Then conditions lose one of their main benefits, which is that they keep ticking when you’re not attacking.
I think the only real fair way to fix it would be to give it to whichever team did the most condition damage on the last tick. At first I thought splitting the points between the teams would be the best way, but then I realized that could be cheesed by just applying a single bleed or something to ensure neither team ever got an advantage from it. So the best way would be to total the damage dealt in the killing tick, then give the kill to whoever dealt the most damage in that larger lump of damage.
Checked the code, it appears to be effectively random.
Hold on, so what you are saying is if X team gets 10 stacks of bleeding, 5 stacks of burning and 4 stacks of poison and team Y applies 1 stack of bleeding, if his health reaches 0 by condition ticks it will be a 50/50 chance?!!
Eeeespuuurts -_-
There is an easy fix, when he reaches 1 health he gains 1 second of resistance.
That means the very next physical hit will take the kill. It will suck that you cannot get the final blow with condition ticks but at least it will no longer be a 50/50 chance.
I’d say whoever has the earliest application of the stack of conditions that killed the monster gets credit. So if Player A started bleed ticks at 0 seconds, and Player B starts bleed ticks at 3 seconds, if both Player A and Player B have bleeding stacks applied when the boss dies to bleed ticking, Player A gets credit. However, if Player A’s stacks fall off, and he re-applies them at 6 seconds, then Player B will have the earlier stacks and would get credit should the boss die to bleeding after 6 seconds.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Checked the code, it appears to be effectively random.
Hold on, so what you are saying is if X team gets 10 stacks of bleeding, 5 stacks of burning and 4 stacks of poison and team Y applies 1 stack of bleeding, if his health reaches 0 by condition ticks it will be a 50/50 chance?!!
Eeeespuuurts -_-
You can’t blame someone who can see all the condition stacked/floaters in his screen.
There is an easy fix, when he reaches 1 health he gains 1 second of resistance.
People want Science and you gave them an easy Mathematics, im out.
[Urge]
Between a master and apprentice, i would love to see the differences.
Checked the code, it appears to be effectively random.
Hold on, so what you are saying is if X team gets 10 stacks of bleeding, 5 stacks of burning and 4 stacks of poison and team Y applies 1 stack of bleeding, if his health reaches 0 by condition ticks it will be a 50/50 chance?!!
Eeeespuuurts -_-
You can’t blame someone who can see all the condition stacked/floaters in his screen.
There is an easy fix, when he reaches 1 health he gains 1 second of resistance.
People want Science and you gave them an easy Mathematics, im out.
There is a much better fix that will separate the damaging condition ticks so that the system can identify which conditions belong to which player teams.
That also requires significantly more time to make, not to mention problems can occur if players swap sides or DC’s.
Hold on, so what you are saying is if X team gets 10 stacks of bleeding, 5 stacks of burning and 4 stacks of poison and team Y applies 1 stack of bleeding, if his health reaches 0 by condition ticks it will be a 50/50 chance?!!
In this case, if the game is currently processing bleed damage, and 10 stacks from team X would kill the monster OR 1 stack from team Y would kill the monster, whichever damage does the killing blow first is random. If bleeding is processed first, but it doesn’t do enough damage to kill the monsters, but then burning DOES deal enough, then team X would get the last hit.
Hold on, so what you are saying is if X team gets 10 stacks of bleeding, 5 stacks of burning and 4 stacks of poison and team Y applies 1 stack of bleeding, if his health reaches 0 by condition ticks it will be a 50/50 chance?!!
In this case, if the game is currently processing bleed damage, and 10 stacks from team X would kill the monster OR 1 stack from team Y would kill the monster, whichever damage does the killing blow first is random. If bleeding is processed first, but it doesn’t do enough damage to kill the monsters, but then burning DOES deal enough, then team X would get the last hit.
Makes sense, it’s not game breaking but it’s disheartening. You have a better chance at stealing the NPC if you not only try to last hit but have the same condition application of the enemy team regardless of how much you apply.
What would be fair?
Last person to apply the condition that dealt the killing blow? Spam condies.
First person to create a stack that dealt the killing blow? Be the first to apply condies and keep them up the entire time.
IMO, fair would be:
Look at the condition that killed it,
Whichever player contributes more to the damage of that stack should get credit for the kill.
Ie. Say boss is dying to 20 stacks of bleeds
Player A applied 15 stacks, but has really low effective condi damage
Player B applied stacks, but has really high effective condi damage.
In this scenario (without looking at the specific numerical analysis), player B contributes more DPS to the stack of bleeds that kills svanir, than player A.
Therefore player B gets the credit for the kill.
I don’t imagine this will need too much reworking of the code since the engine already looks at the condi damage of each source per stack, dynamically.
but what will happen if group X put condi dmg and group Y put direct dmg
who get the kill rewards and who should?
atm it seems direct dmg wins ….
It depends on what does the final damage tick. So… yeah, that is self explanatory.
That being said, if both teams share the same conditions AND conditions land the final damage tick, the boss will randomly pick whoever got the last hit.
This is not that big of a deal as most players will try to get the final hit with physical damage but if you miscalculate the final hit and the conditions take the final tick, it will end it in a 50/50 chance depending on what conditions are shared.
If possible, I think it should go to whichever team dealt the largest percentage of damage on the killing tick. That is the only method that seems fair to me.
Well, if some power build had some bleed and power stacks on. And an enemy with condition damage would try to steal the boss, it means that the condition build dealing 4k condition burst with burning has a 50/50 chance to win against the 200 damage tick from the power build if the burn tick effectively killed Svanir?
Power build : 2 stack of burn. 200 damage
Enemy Condition build : 8 stack of burn. 4000 damage
If 4.2k burn damage gets the killing blow, there is a 50% chance for the power build to get the kill?
I think it makes condi build very weak when it comes to stealing a boss, and power builds with condition damage extremely potent when it comes to stealing a boss from a condi damage dealer.
I was thinking this yesterday while playing Stronghold. All the other PvP NPCs should be patched with down state. It seems even more interesting on Foefire.
Checking for killing blow via percentage damage of a cummulative condition tick looks to be quite complicated. However, sorting the damage by last person to update their condition stack or first person to apply the condition looks much easier.
Downstate would have the same problem when letting the NPC bleed out.
Checking for killing blow via percentage damage of a cummulative condition tick looks to be quite complicated. However, sorting the damage by last person to update their condition stack or first person to apply the condition looks much easier.
Downstate would have the same problem when letting the NPC bleed out.
Well surely you’d have to follow suit and let the last person to apply damaging conditions to get the kill because with physical damage the last hit no matter how pathetic the damage would get the kill.
Kurodaraku – Necromancer | Kuroshikon – Ranger
Officer of [DEX] Deus Ex Machina Eu and [Fus] Fus Ro Dâh
Ruins of Surmia
Checking for killing blow via percentage damage of a cummulative condition tick looks to be quite complicated. However, sorting the damage by last person to update their condition stack or first person to apply the condition looks much easier.
Downstate would have the same problem when letting the NPC bleed out.
Well surely you’d have to follow suit and let the last person to apply damaging conditions to get the kill because with physical damage the last hit no matter how pathetic the damage would get the kill.
Yep. Logically it isn’t the same, but it is the closest. For clarity I think it has to be the last person to apply the condition for condition type that deals the killing tick.
If everything worked like Chilled this is how it would naturally work itself out, right? EDIT: Well, I guess only if one Chilled overwrites the remaining Chilled.
Checking for killing blow via percentage damage of a cummulative condition tick looks to be quite complicated. However, sorting the damage by last person to update their condition stack or first person to apply the condition looks much easier.
Downstate would have the same problem when letting the NPC bleed out.
Well surely you’d have to follow suit and let the last person to apply damaging conditions to get the kill because with physical damage the last hit no matter how pathetic the damage would get the kill.
To clarify what would happen in this case:
Person A applies 100 stacks of bleed.
Person B applies 1 stack of bleed.
Person B gets their damage applied first in the next tick, but it isn’t enough to kill the monster. Person A’s 100 stacks do kill the monster and gets the credit in the same tick.
It would not be the case that we know bleed will kill the monster this tick, give credit to person B because he touched the monster last.
Bleeding out from downed state would happen a lot more often if the NPCs have a downed stated as its easy to contest the NPCs. It would make the randomness happen more often.
In my opinion this is not much as a problem as players will spike down the NPC with physical damage, it should be on a list to be fixed later though. I am more concerned about the finish and revive bug.
