Guild Wars 2

Is it just me or is there actually no real teamplay?
i mean.. there are rarely 5v5 fights. Most times it’s 1v1 2v2 3v3 and the only thing that you have to coordinate is your selected target and bursts, rez and finish.
Guild Wars 1 pvp was so different. Even in randomgroups you tried to help each other survive or powerblock, diversion the monk to give your teammates a chance to burst.. in gw2 theres nothing like this 0o
Actually the most important thing is to do damage.. things like chill are a bad joke…
The mesmer: Mass invisbility and Illusions with random interrupts does not need any skill in my opinion. A well played domination mesmer in gw1 was such fun and usefull in teamfights..
kitten i think when it comes to pvp gw1 is still sooooo much better than gw2..
How do you think could arenanet change this? They wanted an esport game. I don’t think gw2 will ever be one unless they change some points drastically
It’s more fun to watch old wc3 replays than watching teamfights in gw2.

I think theres alot of teamplay.
“Just coordinate bursts and rez/stomp”
Its never as easy as “just stomp”. If you can simply stomp an enemy without the team interupting you, theyre just bad.
Are you playing hot join or tournaments?
Whenever a teammate goes down in a tournament, its practically suicide to just go and revive them, engis are throwing nades at the downed to hit anyone trying to revive, necros put wells on them etc.
Hot join=zerg fest
Tournament=without strategy and teamplay you get facerolled, simple as that

A well placed CC is still effective!
Keyword: well placed

Well, I rarely watch tournaments on twitch, not even mentioning to replay some old games. Would never do that actually. It’s funny to play the game itself, but in my opinion it’s really boring to watch it. And it’s not about the depth of gameplay or lack of strats.
It’s just too obvious what will happen next due to conquest. The only map which brings in some great moments is “legacy of foefire”, cuz of the lord. But the rest of the maps is predictable, static and stale.

Everything empathetic said +1.
There are team fights but not a lot, most of it rotating players and forcing uneven numbers.

flowerpower your judgement is correct
this gw2 pvp we have is casualized in comparison to gw1
here is why teamplay doesn’t really exist: classes are too independent

would require drastic nerfs and class reworkings that would first have to get approved by pve and wvw teams (never going to happen).

milo.6942:

classes are too independent

pretty much this. What I recognized too while watching E-sport games like LoL, CS and even Smite, that with just a little knowledge, the observer is able to understand the core of the game and what is happening on the screen.
On GW2 with thousands of animations, hidden traits, runes/sigil procs etc. it’s really hard to understand what is going on for someone that is not into the game. The information on the screen is so full of informations and details, that even for experienced players and shoutcasters many things get lost. Not even mentioning the height difference of the races, which is ridicolous to watch.
Sometimes simplecity is just more enjoyable to watch.

yes empathetic, that is another large problem for skillful gameplay that’s easy to follow

gw1: 8 skills per person
gw2: minimum 15 + skill-like hidden trait effects + skill-like hidden weapon sigil effects + skill-like hidden armor rune effects.

their idea for reducing this increased complexity? make the hidden ones passive & rng.

edit:
btw since devs announced they’re buffing warrior and help him vs condi, i can say now that pvp devs have given up on this game ever being good. warrior is probably the best designed class with good visual cues for important skills and good damage but weakness to condi & slows. this could have turned into a good teamplay dynamic like in gw1. they should have nerfed other classes to this level to promote support, but instead they just buff warrior. gg anet.

I dislike the trait system, I dislike how we have to customise passive, hidden abilities isntead of active, visible skills, and I dislike how traits and runes/ sigils add unnecessary info-clutter. However, the GW2 community as a whole finds GW1’s skill system to be vastly superior and funnier, so if the system was to be revamped someday, I’m sure the entire anet team would support such a change.

About teamplay, yeah, it’s barebones. Real teamplay requires clear roles and clear weaknesses. GW2 went into the opposite direction, for the sake of casual solo pve players, and because the team wanted to make a mmorpg and not an instance-driven game, heroes/ henchmen were out of question for solo pvers.

People criticize the mmorpg’s holy trinity – heh, even I don’t enjoy it much, but what GW2 has to offer? Instead of a healer that needs to be protected but can heal others, and a tank that can protect others, we have a bunker that can heal and protect itself? It’s exactly the same thing, but with less teamplay.

This game is also full of accidental consequences.
“I’ve just healed with my aoe healing skill. Oh, my ally jsut dodged closer to me and got healed too, that was a lucky guy!”
“I’m just going to put my fire field there. Oh, everyone is ignoring it, but whirls, projectiles, blasts and leaps are still being used, as frequently as they were before the field… But hey, at least we have randomly gotten fire auras and 3 stacks of might!”

GW1 was an absolutely brilliant game in comparison. We won’t ever get that level of quality AND diversity of builds for opponent control or party support with GW2’s philosophy. GW2’s combat is better/ more involving, which makes it a better casual game, but it has sacrificed depth for that, and it has sacrificed elegant simplicity and clarity for the sake of “better balance”, whose positive results are yet to be seen.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

milo.6942:

classes are too independent

This, a thousand times this.

I think its the sole cause of why I personally believe this game has a lower team-skill cap than other RPG based arena games.

Between that and just how important AoE cleave damage is, it takes away from CC, single target attacks and tactics in fave of hitting Target X Y and Z with as much AoE as they can in a certain amount of time.

It’s two fold though, rezing is to quick, so AoE dps is needed to counteract it. 3 people rezing 1 person is almost instantaneous.

AoE is overpowered, but it’s also needed to counter pet armies, stealthed characters, easy rezzing, etc. I believe this reflects the state of the whole game, though. Condition cleansing is mindlessly overpowered, but it’s needed to counter condition spammers. And there’s also boon spamming, although anti-boon is less frequent, to counter extreme, “I can’t even see what happened” bursts.

milo.6942:

gw1: 8 skills per person
gw2: minimum 15 + skill-like hidden trait effects + skill-like hidden weapon sigil effects + skill-like hidden armor rune effects.

In Gw1 were hidden Arrmor runes and weapons sigil + in gw2 you see 4 skills (or more) on what weapon is you opponent using.

Still i agree that GW1 was more enjoyable in pvp – still gw2 is not so bad as everyone is saying. Ofcource it has lot of issues and in my oppinion GW2 is not even in Alpha Milestone yet. Most of the classes are way to easy to play (mesmer/thief/ele), while other need a lot of time to learn and master(warrior/necro) and the worst part is ,that learning and mastering hard classes wont give you anything.
Conquest is not so bad either, as simple 5vs5 would be more boring and req. less starts.
Lack of build possibilitys is in my oppinion and balance is worst issues atm, if they gonna fix that – they could work on something like new game modes.

milo.6942:

edit:
btw since devs announced they’re buffing warrior and help him vs condi, i can say now that pvp devs have given up on this game ever being good. warrior is probably the best designed class with good visual cues for important skills and good damage but weakness to condi & slows. this could have turned into a good teamplay dynamic like in gw1. they should have nerfed other classes to this level to promote support, but instead they just buff warrior. gg anet.

I agree 100% with this. Warrior feels like the most fun class to play.

• It has strength without being overpowering
• It has defense without being tanky
• It has gap closers without being teleport spam
• It can remove some but not all conditions
• It has no gimmicks

Buffing warrior is easiest in terms of balance, but its detrimental to overall gameplay in my opinion.

All warrior needs is some tweaking on the weapon set animations (particularly hammer) and some balancing for cooldowns and activation times here and there. Traits…well traits are bad on just about every class so that isn’t exclusive to the warrior.

I imagine a game where thieves didn’t stealth all the time with impunity, mesmers didn’t teleport and evade spam and elementalists, rangers didn’t inexplicably have some of the best tank builds in the entire game. I hate needing fifty million stunbreaks for a class to be viable. It trivialises CC completely and once again, decreases the need for cooperation with your other team mates.

So you’re a warrior running hammer. Discounting the warped activation times and animations, you have four CC(bull’s charge, backbreaker, staggering blow, earthshaker). You think you’re going to be smart and set up a nice chain, maybe ES -> BB -> SB -> BC. Too bad your enemies will have two stun breakers at a minimum, and teleports, evades, immunes(which is quite possibly the worst mechanic I’ve seen). Trying to set up any kind of chain is pointless unless you can spam immobilize. Why must everything in this game come down to a spam?

Maybe while we’re at it, decrease the prevalence of AoE skills, decrease particle clutter, get rid of clone spam, for a start. I’d like to play that game, I think.

emon.1863:

milo.6942:

gw1: 8 skills per person
gw2: minimum 15 + skill-like hidden trait effects + skill-like hidden weapon sigil effects + skill-like hidden armor rune effects.

In Gw1 were hidden Arrmor runes and weapons sigil + in gw2 you see 4 skills (or more) on what weapon is you opponent using.

i chose my words carefully: the effects are skill-like in gw2, whereas they were decidedly less powerful in gw1. imagine spawning a pet when you get hit in gw1. unreal.

DiogoSilva.7089:

AoE is overpowered, but it’s also needed to counter pet armies, stealthed characters, easy rezzing, etc. I believe this reflects the state of the whole game, though. Condition cleansing is mindlessly overpowered, but it’s needed to counter condition spammers. And there’s also boon spamming, although anti-boon is less frequent, to counter extreme, “I can’t even see what happened” bursts.

To expand on this,

Traits only make this worse. In order to make traits interesting, for the sake of not all of them being boring +X stat boosts or -X cooldown effects, traits are overloaded with +conditions, + boons, etc, etc. And so we see classes getting perma-vigor and spamming dodge to get back to points, and classes that get overloaded with boons by using traited-utilities.

The reward of using Mist Form should be its own function: invulnerability. Why reward eles with regen, vigor and condition removal on top of that? The reward and punishment for using a strong, instant-cast Mind Wrack should be the fact that it’s strong, is instant-cast and comes at the cost of your illusions. Why have it add might, have ite ven stronger, be used without illusions, and allow illusion generation by dodging?

The traiting system is a redudant system that, in theory, it has the purpose to offer more player customisation to compensante for the lack of it within the skill system, but in practise, it overloads the game with boons, conditions, info-dumps, hidden stats, extreme bunkers, extreme bursters, etc.

If traiting was removed completely, and the skill system’s customisation was expanded, we would get the same level of customisation, without overloading the game with effects and hidden information.

It would also help, indirectly, teamplaying, as each build would be less extreme or less overloaded with tools to make it independent. A cantrip ele would no longer have the long-term defense it currently does, which would actually make glyph or signet eles (if buffed) take that role. A mesmer would no longer be able to spam clones, which would make scepter mesmers (again, if buffed) take that role. Etc.

This simplication of roles would make professions closer to warriors, with stronger weakspots, and thus they would require a much tighter team playing.

I don’t agree that classes being more independent spoils the game. FPS game every1 is independent but it doesn’t make it not fun to play. GW2 pvp still require team work but not set in stone like how the holy trinity mmo games are. Team work in gw2 is some what similar to a FPS game. I also think that lot of players have been playing solo queue for too long and build for a self sustainable build, that when players of 5 pugs find that with subtle teamwork and less coordination can win most game. When u play with an organize team, like i did with 4 pugs, we build for team play, there you can feel that when one of your team mate fail to react in time or make the wrong move without communicating the team crumble to pieces. No 1 member can succeed without the team there. As we get our stuff together, we practically make a winning spree against good 5 self sustain pugs and make a good match against other premade teams.

Thing that i find gw2 that make team work hard to grasp is that it :
1) Have too many hidden traits and skill with too many skill ability tied to it
2) AOE that kill all support skill that require to be close to get it
or
2) Skill that lack players targeting, in such a fast action pace game, ground target aoe and aoe that affects surround players support skill often miss render it useless.
3) Lacking of Elite skill that can be game changer but can be counter with skill that on high cd on all profession.
or
3) You can also say that skill have powerful ability that are spam-able on low cd that make some Elite skill seem useless
4) The pace of battle or the time of it take to take a player from 100 to 0 in sec make it that some battle need less coordination and just spam your way through till some 1 drops.
5) Subtle to no animation of some skill in the plethora of animation clutter that make it hard for other member to counter it in such an action pack game.

These are some of the thing i can think of now.

milo.6942:

btw since devs announced they’re buffing warrior and help him vs condi, i can say now that pvp devs have given up on this game ever being good. warrior is probably the best designed class with good visual cues for important skills and good damage but weakness to condi & slows. this could have turned into a good teamplay dynamic like in gw1. they should have nerfed other classes to this level to promote support, but instead they just buff warrior. gg anet.

I gotta agree with this one as well.
After playing around with warrior instead of my usual main-classes, I feel like the warrior is actually the only class that is balanced.
With my Ranger or Elementalist i can just spam healings, evades and still deal tons of condition AND direct dmg.
Playing with my warrior I could only fill one role at a time, which also meant that i really had to watch out for the opponents attacks instead of just recklessly spam my dodges.
I feel like everything is just too much in a sense. There is too much of everything atm. Too many conditions, too much cleansing, too low CD on skills, too high endurance regeneration.
They should really try to bring down the pace of the game, instead of just buffing Warriors to fit the current meta.

Edit:
I’ve said this a hundred times, but supportive roles needs a more dominant role.
Every single healing ability in the game is solely for personal use. How many times do you see a Guardian healing his allies with Healing Breeze? Yeah, never. Why should he when they have plenty of heals themselves, and the ally-heal on the skill is terrible. No one would ever pick such a skill compared to a 2-sec block.
I love the fact that the holy-trinity is non-existant, but roles should still apply. GW2 should strive to have roles similarly to MOBA-games.

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

AoE is overpowered, but it’s also needed to counter pet armies, stealthed characters, easy rezzing, etc. I believe this reflects the state of the whole game, though. Condition cleansing is mindlessly overpowered, but it’s needed to counter condition spammers. And there’s also boon spamming, although anti-boon is less frequent, to counter extreme, “I can’t even see what happened” bursts.

To expand on this,

Traits only make this worse. In order to make traits interesting, for the sake of not all of them being boring +X stat boosts or -X cooldown effects, traits are overloaded with +conditions, + boons, etc, etc. And so we see classes getting perma-vigor and spamming dodge to get back to points, and classes that get overloaded with boons by using traited-utilities.

The reward of using Mist Form should be its own function: invulnerability. Why reward eles with regen, vigor and condition removal on top of that? The reward and punishment for using a strong, instant-cast Mind Wrack should be the fact that it’s strong, is instant-cast and comes at the cost of your illusions. Why have it add might, have ite ven stronger, be used without illusions, and allow illusion generation by dodging?

The traiting system is a redudant system that, in theory, it has the purpose to offer more player customisation to compensante for the lack of it within the skill system, but in practise, it overloads the game with boons, conditions, info-dumps, hidden stats, extreme bunkers, extreme bursters, etc.

If traiting was removed completely, and the skill system’s customisation was expanded, we would get the same level of customisation, without overloading the game with effects and hidden information. It would also help, indirectly, teamplaying, as each build would be less extreme or less overloaded with tools that make it independent.

I agree 100% with both your posts. Basically we can’t change anything at this point because every system is dependant on each other.

• Can’t change mindless condition cleanse (lol guardian) without changing mindless condition spam
• Can’t change mindless stunbreak spam without overhauling the idea of support(to deal with burst)
• Can’t change stealth spam without kitten ing off every thief
• Can’t change teleport spam without kitten ing off every thief
• Can’t change evade spam without kitten ing off mesmers, thieves

We can’t do anything at this point. This should have all been sorted out in open and closed alpha, beta at the absolute latest.

The problems facing GW2 are symptomatic of a developer team that avoids using mechanics similar to GW1 in anyway due to failing to see just how much they got right in the previous game. Taking more ideas from GW1 did not mean that they would have to compromise on getting rid of the trinity (which by the way is only actually useful in PvE, there will always be a meta and as we’ve seen, UP classes), open world, jumping, more responsive combat, dodging, even getting rid of the energy system.

There are many people on this forum right now who frankly hated GW1 when it was akittens peak, never played the PvP at a high level and are actually happy that we have a successor that is similar in name only. As someone who has played GW1 at a high level, who continues to play GW2, follow tournaments, follow developer talks, participate in discussions as much as possible, I don’t think there is any way that PvP will ever exceed what GW1 had, purely because of what the developers want to do with this game, not because of a lack of potential.

People on this forum avoid comparisons with GW1 because either they feel it isn’t relevant (it really is) or because they themselves don’t know enough about it to comment. Problems that would not exist if more time had been spent on at least bringing to the table features that GW1 had:

• The match making problems
• Lack of game modes
• Lack of rewards
• Lack of proper guild ladder
• Automated tournaments
• AoE spam
• Condition spam
• …….

Where is my backline, frontline, midline? No trinity? Ok then, where is my support, frontline, midline? No midline you say? Ok, so now we’ve regressed to frontline, support? Wait, there isn’t even viable support? How is this a step up? Now everyone can do everything, support doesn’t matter and ‘team skill’ means using mesmer portals.

Replacing healers with support had the potential to increase the skill ceiling even more than the ceiling in GW1. No, you can’t just focus on healing/protection, you’ve got to meaningfully contribute to damage too. We didn’t get that.

We’ve given up too much and gained too little. Why I still come here I don’t know. Hope? Frustration?

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

AoE is overpowered, but it’s also needed to counter pet armies, stealthed characters, easy rezzing, etc. I believe this reflects the state of the whole game, though. Condition cleansing is mindlessly overpowered, but it’s needed to counter condition spammers. And there’s also boon spamming, although anti-boon is less frequent, to counter extreme, “I can’t even see what happened” bursts.

To expand on this,

Traits only make this worse. In order to make traits interesting, for the sake of not all of them being boring +X stat boosts or -X cooldown effects, traits are overloaded with +conditions, + boons, etc, etc. And so we see classes getting perma-vigor and spamming dodge to get back to points, and classes that get overloaded with boons by using traited-utilities.

The reward of using Mist Form should be its own function: invulnerability. Why reward eles with regen, vigor and condition removal on top of that? The reward and punishment for using a strong, instant-cast Mind Wrack should be the fact that it’s strong, is instant-cast and comes at the cost of your illusions. Why have it add might, have ite ven stronger, be used without illusions, and allow illusion generation by dodging?

The traiting system is a redudant system that, in theory, it has the purpose to offer more player customisation to compensante for the lack of it within the skill system, but in practise, it overloads the game with boons, conditions, info-dumps, hidden stats, extreme bunkers, extreme bursters, etc.

If traiting was removed completely, and the skill system’s customisation was expanded, we would get the same level of customisation, without overloading the game with effects and hidden information.

It would also help, indirectly, teamplaying, as each build would be less extreme or less overloaded with tools to make it independent. A cantrip ele would no longer have the long-term defense it currently does, which would actually make glyph or signet eles (if buffed) take that role. A mesmer would no longer be able to spam clones, which would make scepter mesmers (again, if buffed) take that role. Etc.

This simplication of roles would make professions closer to warriors, with stronger weakspots, and thus they would require a much tighter team playing.

The way you say it make me think that every1 should be like a warrior, no variety and all brute force and bulk. I wouldn’t want that.

It remind me of warrior that always complain about classes running away or kiting and not facing them directly.

Edit:One thing i agree is that to have classes animation more obvious like warriors , so that players can spot them on the go.

LonelyReaper.8075:

I don’t agree that classes being more independent spoils the game. FPS game every1 is independent but it doesn’t make it not fun to play.

In my mind, games like Call of Duty don’t count as a team-based FPS game.
<- Is very much indeed an independent player game.

However, Return to Castle Wolfenstein (and ET), do very much count as a team-based FPS game. <- Is not a independent player game.

LonelyReaper.8075:

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

……

The way you say it make me think that every1 should be like a warrior, no variety and all brute force and bulk. I wouldn’t want that.

It remind me of warrior that always complain about classes running away or kiting and not facing them directly.

Edit:One thing i agree is that to have classes animation more obvious like warriors , so that players can spot them on the go.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion from what he said? Please be serious.

KrisHQ.4719:

milo.6942:

btw since devs announced they’re buffing warrior and help him vs condi, i can say now that pvp devs have given up on this game ever being good. warrior is probably the best designed class with good visual cues for important skills and good damage but weakness to condi & slows. this could have turned into a good teamplay dynamic like in gw1. they should have nerfed other classes to this level to promote support, but instead they just buff warrior. gg anet.

I gotta agree with this one as well.
After playing around with warrior instead of my usual main-classes, I feel like the warrior is actually the only class that is balanced.
With my Ranger or Elementalist i can just spam healings, evades and still deal tons of condition AND direct dmg.
Playing with my warrior I could only fill one role at a time, which also meant that i really had to watch out for the opponents attacks instead of just recklessly spam my dodges.
I feel like everything is just too much in a sense. There is too much of everything atm. Too many conditions, too much cleansing, too low CD on skills, too high endurance regeneration.
They should really try to bring down the pace of the game, instead of just buffing Warriors to fit the current meta.

Edit:
I’ve said this a hundred times, but supportive roles needs a more dominant role.
Every single healing ability in the game is solely for personal use. How many times do you see a Guardian healing his allies with Healing Breeze? Yeah, never. Why should he when they have plenty of heals themselves, and the ally-heal on the skill is terrible. No one would ever pick such a skill compared to a 2-sec block.
I love the fact that the holy-trinity is non-existant, but roles should still apply. GW2 should strive to have roles similarly to MOBA-games.

The only class i think it quite balance is guardian. Warrior have to much dmg and most build have quite a lot of cc. Warrior can only do dmg and face tank most dmg with thier large hp pool which make them much simpler then other clunkier profession. So they can take their time to watch for all the opponent atk and find the right time to make a move.
In general i think the problem is how the maps are created in conquest and how dmg is in this game. If dmg is tone down across the board and point on conquest is being awarded slower, and skill cd increase to slow down the spam, it could promote more decision making and counter against other players ability like what you are experiencing with your warrior.

But there is teamwork in gw2..I see people healing allies all the time,peeling for them so they get out of focus fire,giving boons like prot ,stabiliy on purpose chaining cc to burst ..chaining blasts onto a combo field like smoke,using rezz abilities, using portal intelligently. I also see abilities and traits that are directly aimed to allies and not yourself.
Just cause you dont see the above into pug play doesnt mean they dont exist in the game!
I like it a lot this way tbh..I think the way you define teamwork doesnt apply to this game anymore.
You literally saying you want healers,tanks dps..just cause there the support is more defined.Thats all im reading in this topic and im sick of it.

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

……

The way you say it make me think that every1 should be like a warrior, no variety and all brute force and bulk. I wouldn’t want that.

It remind me of warrior that always complain about classes running away or kiting and not facing them directly.

Edit:One thing i agree is that to have classes animation more obvious like warriors , so that players can spot them on the go.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion from what he said? Please be serious.

That what i see, no clone mechanic, no passive ability more linear traits like warrior +dmg -snare duration and remove trait completely , warrior get changes the least if traits are remove, they still most probably play the same. Especially now other classes strength in pvp are tied a lot into their traits , warrior on the other hand are tied to their weapons and utilities. Traits only offer boost to what they have, making it like the beast it is in pve.

kostbabis.8791:

But there is teamwork in gw2..I see people healing allies all the time,peeling for them so they get out of focus fire,giving boons like prot ,stabiliy on purpose chaining cc to burst ..chaining blasts onto a combo field like smoke,using rezz abilities, using portal intelligently. I also see abilities and traits that are directly aimed to allies and not yourself.
Just cause you dont see the above into pug play doesnt mean they dont exist in the game!
I like it a lot this way tbh..I think the way you define teamwork doesnt apply to this game anymore.
You literally saying you want healers,tanks dps..just cause there the support is more defined.Thats all im reading in this topic and im sick of it.

Look, fair enough if you can’t see past the pseudo-depth that is GW2 combat, but believe it or not the rest of us can see past it. Either reply properly with arguments addressing each of our points or don’t reply at all. I can’t refute any of your points because you don’t really make any, you just say vague things which basically cumulatively accept status quo, which is of no use to anyone. I’m sick of the emphasis on esports when the casual players are being shafted and I’ll voice my opinions much like you.

LonelyReaper.8075:

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

……

The way you say it make me think that every1 should be like a warrior, no variety and all brute force and bulk. I wouldn’t want that.

It remind me of warrior that always complain about classes running away or kiting and not facing them directly.

Edit:One thing i agree is that to have classes animation more obvious like warriors , so that players can spot them on the go.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion from what he said? Please be serious.

That what i see, no clone mechanic, no passive ability more linear traits like warrior +dmg -snare duration and remove trait completely , warrior get changes the least if traits are remove, they still most probably play the same. Especially now other classes strength in pvp are tied a lot into their traits , warrior on the other hand are tied to their weapons and utilities. Traits only offer boost to what they have, making it like the beast it is in pve.

LonelyReaper.8075:

no clone mechanic

Once again, what are you talking about? How did you infer this from the removal of traits? I don’t even think removing traits is necessary, just redesigning them, but come on.

LonelyReaper.8075:

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

……

The way you say it make me think that every1 should be like a warrior, no variety and all brute force and bulk. I wouldn’t want that.

It remind me of warrior that always complain about classes running away or kiting and not facing them directly.

Edit:One thing i agree is that to have classes animation more obvious like warriors , so that players can spot them on the go.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion from what he said? Please be serious.

That what i see, no clone mechanic, no passive ability more linear traits like warrior +dmg -snare duration and remove trait completely , warrior get changes the least if traits are remove, they still most probably play the same. Especially now other classes strength in pvp are tied a lot into their traits , warrior on the other hand are tied to their weapons and utilities. Traits only offer boost to what they have, making it like the beast it is in pve.

To expand this, let take it to our imagination:

Let say a shatter mesmer without trait vs a warrior without traits. No clone generation and long cd and weak shatter that can’t remove boons and it clone getting 1 shotted from cleaves will lose to a warrior that have just as much output(compared to the current mesmer) and cc. The warrior now don’t have to worry about shatter as it does not dmg and the real mesmer can be easily found by swinging their large blade or heavy axe, killing all clones and phantasm. No phantasm and clone = no dmg, to prevent this the mesmer take signet of illusion, clone die slower but now the mesmer have less survivability, or less 1 utility slot for portal or IOL or any other. To prevent that mesmer can go soldier amulet and boost survivability but will that win the warrior, no it just delay the fight longer as now mesmer deals less dmg and warrior heal just become more sustainable.

@ all who are arguing against OP topic:
chances are very high that you’ve not played gw1 GvG or HA at high enough level (or at all).
in this thread, there are many references to gw1 style of team play. that is what we are all talking about. if you don’t know what that was like, you will not understand even 1% of the discussion. you may think you do… but you really don’t.

in summary, gw1 pvp was like this: rock-paper-scissors chess action-rpg. 2 teams of 8. in order to deal damage to enemy team, you had to “unlock” their defenses while simultaneously preventing them from doing the same to you. a simple example would be:

they blind your warrior so he does no damage, your healer has to remove it & manage his energy, which he could only do if your team wasn’t taking too much damage, which your midline could help with by disabling their damage (like blinding their warrior), which they could do as long as the enemy team disablers weren’t focusing on them or the enemy monks were under enough pressure so they don’t have energy for condi remove… etc etc etc. that’s team work. that’s pvp. not like gw2.

hope you understand better what we’re talking about.
thnx bye

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

DiogoSilva.7089:

DiogoSilva.7089:

……

The way you say it make me think that every1 should be like a warrior, no variety and all brute force and bulk. I wouldn’t want that.

It remind me of warrior that always complain about classes running away or kiting and not facing them directly.

Edit:One thing i agree is that to have classes animation more obvious like warriors , so that players can spot them on the go.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion from what he said? Please be serious.

That what i see, no clone mechanic, no passive ability more linear traits like warrior +dmg -snare duration and remove trait completely , warrior get changes the least if traits are remove, they still most probably play the same. Especially now other classes strength in pvp are tied a lot into their traits , warrior on the other hand are tied to their weapons and utilities. Traits only offer boost to what they have, making it like the beast it is in pve.

LonelyReaper.8075:

no clone mechanic

Once again, what are you talking about? How did you infer this from the removal of traits? I don’t even think removing traits is necessary, just redesigning them, but come on.

So for the no clone mechanic i mean dodge spawn clone and no passive i mean the vigor and regeneration on ele. But come on read what he stated and read in between the line too, that what you will get if u analyze it well. It so clear that every1 should be a warrior, plain and straight forward.

milo.6942:

@ all who are arguing against OP topic:
chances are very high that you’ve not played gw1 GvG or HA at high enough level (or at all).
in this thread, there are many references to gw1 style of team play. that is what we are all talking about. if you don’t know what that was like, you will not understand even 1% of the discussion. you may think you do… but you really don’t.

in summary, gw1 pvp was like this: rock-paper-scissors chess action-rpg. 2 teams of 8. in order to deal damage to enemy team, you had to “unlock” their defenses while simultaneously preventing them from doing the same to you. a simple example would be:

they blind your warrior so he does no damage, your healer has to remove it & manage his energy, which he could only do if your team wasn’t taking too much damage, which your midline could help with by disabling their damage (like blinding their warrior), which they could do as long as the enemy team disablers weren’t focusing on them or the enemy monks were under enough pressure so they don’t have energy for condi remove… etc etc etc. that’s team work. that’s pvp. not like gw2.

hope you understand better what we’re talking about.
thnx bye

yes i don’t and gvg is boring as hell to watch if i don’t play the game, i just see a clutter of players fighting in the middle of the map and even A-net stated it always ended in stalemate with players bunkering. This is not much different that wow capture the flag mode, u have 1 immortal tank and 3 healers keeping them up all the time, dps running from graveyard to the opponent base to be sent back again in mins and it goes till the debuff on the flag carrier make them like a naked player then whoever that lucky get the kill win the match. The immortal tank in gvg just became your lord in gw1.

Edit: But hell its fun to play bg in wow. Just that now gw2 remove healer and give every1 a heals , it make me like this much better.

i vote we just ignore lonelyreaper’s posts
clearly he thinks he knows what’s up even though he admits he’s no idea what gw1 was like

what up? and this about gw2 teamwork , suddenly it becomes i want gw1. Then you should just rename the title teamworkin gw1>gw2, then i won’t post anymore.

i tried to explain what we were talking about, but you had to keep posting things that make no sense.

I strongly believe that support and player interaction in gw2 has the potential to be much deeper ,intuitive and fun than any other mmo that i have played yet.
Just the lack of defined roles give many people the impression that there are no roles at all.Some people simple dont like making sence out of the chaos.They went everything defined and set in the most simple way possible.And thats fine!
I know that gw2 is over the top at the information someone needs to process during a simple small sale fight so that the team can function the best possible way.
But its still possible to make sence out of it.And when you manage to do you ll come to appreciate that the battle defining moment didnt came down to just filling up a health bar by your dedicated healer.
Spreadin a specific role to more than 1 player doesnt make team play less..It just makes it a lot harder to reach that optimal play.Do i heal now or do i use my aoe heal for me now after i reach my teammate.Do i use my boon now or near my allies.Do i use my ccs now or do i coordiante them with my team.All these choices wouldnt exist together if there was 1 guy healing, 1 dps etc!
Just think how hard is to reach lets say max healing on your team in gw2 in comparison to a game like wow !
Sometimes too much complexity makes people giving up making sence.Then they blame the problem, having no substance and no solution ,instead of their inability to work it outAnd thats my opinion :P

LonelyReaper.8075:

what up? and this about gw2 teamwork , suddenly it becomes i want gw1. Then you should just rename the title teamworkin gw1>gw2, then i won’t post anymore.

Sorry, but “always ended in stalemate”? You lost all your credibility there. Please don’t talk about a game you know nothing about. Additionally, yet again we have someone who watches a few youtube clips and thinks he knows the game, worse yet, you reference WoW as though that is relevant. If I judged GW2 gameplay off of youtube clips while never having played it at a decent level, I’d be called an idiot and rightfully so.

Edit: @MIlo

i am sure i fully understand what you are talking about. GW2 also have rock/paper/scissor , it just that with that some factor i stated in my 1st post make it so hard to realize it.

Like you say you blind the warrior, warrior need a healer to remove it to deal dmg, same in gw2, i just played with a warrior i babysat him in tpvp, i cleanse all his condition for him to deal dmg and try to heal him with my aoe(which most of the time misses as what i explained in the 1st post). Is that so far off? I even immobilize a jumping thief so that he can land a bullcharge rush. So i don’t see how far am gw2 is off from gw1, its presented differently, yes but not so alien that it doesn’t have it at all.

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

what up? and this about gw2 teamwork , suddenly it becomes i want gw1. Then you should just rename the title teamworkin gw1>gw2, then i won’t post anymore.

Sorry, but “always ended in stalemate”? You lost all your credibility there. Please don’t talk about a game you know nothing about. Additionally, yet again we have someone who watches a few youtube clips and thinks he knows the game, worse yet, you reference WoW as though that is relevant. If I judged GW2 gameplay off of youtube clips while never having played it at a decent level, I’d be called an idiot and rightfully so.

I am sorry, go find the post or SOTG that jon stated about gvg. I think it the recent SOTG, he say that it always ended in turtling and so it ended in a stalemate that A-net have to implement a tie breaker to force all the npc into the middle to battle it out.

Edit: If you want to call yourself an idiot be my guest, i won’t judge you.

kostbabis.8791:

I strongly believe that support and player interaction in gw2 has the potential to be much deeper ,intuitive and fun than any other mmo that i have played yet.
Just the lack of defined roles give many people the impression that there are no roles at all.Some people simple dont like making sence out of the chaos.They went everything defined and set in the most simple way possible.And thats fine!
I know that gw2 is over the top at the information someone needs to process during a simple small sale fight so that the team can function the best possible way.
But its still possible to make sence out of it.And when you manage to do you ll come to appreciate that the battle defining moment didnt came down to just filling up a health bar by your dedicated healer.
Spreadin a specific role to more than 1 player doesnt make team play less..It just makes it a lot harder to reach that optimal play.Do i heal now or do i use my aoe heal for me now after i reach my teammate.Do i use my boon now or near my allies.Do i use my ccs now or do i coordiante them with my team.All these choices wouldnt exist together if there was 1 guy healing, 1 dps etc!
Just think how hard is to reach lets say max healing on your team in gw2 in comparison to a game like wow !
Sometimes too much complexity makes people giving up making sence.Then they blame the problem, having no substance and no solution ,instead of their inability to work it outAnd thats my opinion :P

^ i think this post stated it all and better.

LonelyReaper.8075:

Paradoxine.8192:

LonelyReaper.8075:

what up? and this about gw2 teamwork , suddenly it becomes i want gw1. Then you should just rename the title teamworkin gw1>gw2, then i won’t post anymore.

Sorry, but “always ended in stalemate”? You lost all your credibility there. Please don’t talk about a game you know nothing about. Additionally, yet again we have someone who watches a few youtube clips and thinks he knows the game, worse yet, you reference WoW as though that is relevant. If I judged GW2 gameplay off of youtube clips while never having played it at a decent level, I’d be called an idiot and rightfully so.

I am sorry, go find the post or SOTG that jon stated about gvg. I think it the recent SOTG, he say that it always ended in turtling and so it ended in a stalemate that A-net have to implement a tie breaker to force all the npc into the middle to battle it out.

Edit: If you want to call yourself an idiot be my guest, i won’t judge you.

He didn’t say it always ended in turtling, watch it again. Why do I even bother. Even if he had, it wouldn’t have been accurate. Addressing the last bit of your reply, you can keep up the childish antics if you want to but it doesn’t help your position.

LonelyReaper.8075:

i am sure i fully understand what you are talking about.

milo.6942:

you may think you do… but you really don’t.

LonelyReaper.8075:

GW2 also have rock/paper/scissor , it just that with that some factor i stated in my 1st post make it so hard to realize it.

Like you say you blind the warrior, warrior need a healer to remove it to deal dmg, same in gw2, i just played with a warrior i babysat him in tpvp, i cleanse all his condition for him to deal dmg and try to heal him with my aoe(which most of the time misses as what i explained in the 1st post). Is that so far off? I even immobilize a jumping thief so that he can land a bullcharge rush. So i don’t see how far am gw2 is off from gw1, its presented differently, yes but not so alien that it doesn’t have it at all.

ok you are getting close to being on-topic now
now you also see the problem with gw2. you mention warrior in gw2 and you help him remove blind. OK. except that this is the reason no one takes warrior. he needs support. other classes don’t have this problem as serious as warrior do — they are more independent. and devs say they will make warrior have better self-clean from condition… this is step in direction of less teamplay.
hope you better understand what discussion is about now.

Edit: @ Paradoxine:

He did say that, that why a the tie breaker was set in place, even wiki have some info on it. I was clueless about gvg, so i went to read up on some of it, i may not have the experience of playing it but from what i read , watch and hear from Jon that the conclusion i come to. I don’t think i am that far off. It really do resemble the tactics in wow CTF mode of Harathi Highlands and Warsong Glutch(may spell it wrong.), that when blizzard implemented a stronger debuff on the flag carrier as a tie breaker.

milo.6942:

LonelyReaper.8075:

i am sure i fully understand what you are talking about.

milo.6942:

you may think you do… but you really don’t.

LonelyReaper.8075:

GW2 also have rock/paper/scissor , it just that with that some factor i stated in my 1st post make it so hard to realize it.

Like you say you blind the warrior, warrior need a healer to remove it to deal dmg, same in gw2, i just played with a warrior i babysat him in tpvp, i cleanse all his condition for him to deal dmg and try to heal him with my aoe(which most of the time misses as what i explained in the 1st post). Is that so far off? I even immobilize a jumping thief so that he can land a bullcharge rush. So i don’t see how far am gw2 is off from gw1, its presented differently, yes but not so alien that it doesn’t have it at all.

ok you are getting close to being on-topic now
now you also see the problem with gw2. you mention warrior in gw2 and you help him remove blind. OK. except that this is the reason no one takes warrior. he needs support. other classes don’t have this problem as serious as warrior do — they are more independant. and devs say they will make warrior have better self-clean from condition… this is step in direction of less teamplay.
hope you better understand what discussion is about now.

I am on track, just that i may not have stated it so clear or you miss understood me. Warrior do have their down, and other classes may have too much, so in my 1st post i stated some of the problem i see as the problem to having teamwork being felt so lacking in gw2.

milo.6942:

ok you are getting close to being on-topic now
now you also see the problem with gw2. you mention warrior in gw2 and you help him remove blind. OK. except that this is the reason no one takes warrior. he needs support. other classes don’t have this problem as serious as warrior do — they are more independant. and devs say they will make warrior have better self-clean from condition… this is step in direction of less teamplay.
hope you better understand what discussion is about now.

I need to correct you on this one :P
Its not that other classes dont have this problem.Its more that their meta builds atm are really self involved…to the point that it doesnt make sence
For example you have ele getting regen on cantrips trait and then spending the rest of the match fighting alonside a ranger,guard or other ele with elem attunement !!
There is a huge variety of build combinationts that are deemed unviable and the basic reason of this seems to be low 1vs1 potential.I personally cant be sure if this is a flaw of the game or a flaw of the players.Bugged traits and skills dont help either
But we dont have to go as far as ask holy trinity gamplay..Not when theres all this unexplored options that gw2 can still offer with a few small changes/fixes!

@Milo:

As you say giving a profession more sustain kill team play, but there some times like in wow, it just break some classes and make some classes so op. I think i won’t go to much into wow for examples but like a mesmer, if he build for more sustain , he is partially useless to his/her team, so with most shatter mesmer now, they only have 1 oh crap button on the go and 1 tied to class machanic on long cd with prerequisite. That the type of mesmer you want in a team, they are more team orientated but are easily killed in that setup compared to a shatter mesmer taking decoy,blink and mirror image or even a phantasm mesmer that have so much sustain but it doesn’t bring any team utilities or team work except 1 stun and dmg. So it boil down to , yes warrior need more sustain if his alone but in team composition will bring anything for the team.

I think profession need to be able to at least sustain themselves 1v1 , meaning in a 1v1 fight against most classes except their counter they should not fare too bad and in a team play they should no have glaring over powered combination, then a close to balance game is achieved. So far gw2 has done what wow could not, and like what my boomkin face in wow during cataclysm was it was so broken in 1v1 and it was some what ok in team play that make that spec and class so underpowered and no 1 want them in arena except occasionally bgs as they have strong aoe.

Edit: As warriors get more sustain , i think there must be a trade off in their bulk of hp or dmg. But i think dmg on warrior need to be tone down a bit with the sustain they can get.

The problem with support playing in this game, is that it is completely unreliable.

Do I use Water Trident on my or on my ally? I’ll use it on my ally. Oh, he just moved out of the way to evade an attack, and my heal missed!

Someone’s bursting me? Let me switch to earth attunement to gain protection. Oh, an ally popped up close to me out-of-nowhere and has also gotten protection!

The concept of a more chaotic combat system, that requires more improvization and less defined roles, is a good concept. But for that level of improvization to exist, you need time and clarity. You need to clearly watch the consequences of an action, and then have time to react and take advantage of those consequences.

GW2’s combat does not gives you time nor clarity to favor its chaotic nature. Inbetween the spamming of everything, the extreme bursts, the screen cluttering, and the huge amount of info-dump, hidden or not, makes the combat a big chaotic mess at times, and rewards players for putting all their skills on cooldown. Do as much as you can, as fast as possible, before you get killed out of nowhere.

kostbabis.8791:

we dont have to go as far as ask holy trinity gamplay..Not when theres all this unexplored options that gw2 can still offer with a few small changes/fixes!

I think we need more emphasis on support. In GW1 for example, healing breeze was single ally targeted. Now its some sort of AoE cone effect and worse, a self heal. What player in their right mind would take that skill now? We can improve teamplay without reverting to trinity, but we’ve got to take a serious look at the basics (support) first. I outlined a few skill types I’d like to see that allow players to help out their team and stay relatively independent, but any mention of teamplay beyond spamming AoE is shot down on these forums. It’s hopeless.

@DiogoSilva and Paradoxine:

Yes, i agree, support ability need to be straigthen up a bit. Now a lot of support are missing their intended target or unusable becuz of how fast the pace of the game is or how strong aoe spamming are preventing stacking for some support aoe. This need a thread on it own and need a potential fix.

im going to say it again gw2 is not about teamplay is about communication and awareness wich p much if u wana be good in all games u have to have that but in gw2 is needed more since is more 1v1 2v2.
the only support in this game is staff guardian and aura sharing all the other things every class can do it by themselves

The problem with party support is the lack of intrastructure that supports it.

In other games, you can target allies and use skills on them, but the devs didn’t want players in GW2 to spend their time watching health bars. That’s fine. However, instead of creating a new, more visceral mechanic, they have completely scrapped it, and party support was left to aoe skills and nothing else, with very few exceptions.

To start, it would be interesting if there were a lot more aoe support skills that would only affect “other allies”, not yourself. Second, more auto-targetting skills like the guardian’s meditation (?) that teleports to ally with the lowest health and restores them. This can be expanded into a mechanic that allows you to automatically target allies without spending time clicking on them, so that the combat can remain visceral.

Juan Ignacio.8903:

im going to say it again gw2 is not about teamplay is about communication and awareness wich p much if u wana be good in all games u have to have that but in gw2 is needed more since is more 1v1 2v2.
the only support in this game is staff guardian and aura sharing all the other things every class can do it by themselves

Teamplay is also an essential part of gw2 alongside with communication and awareness. Teamplay get overshadowed by the other 2 as how face your hp can go from 100 to 0 and from 1 to 80 in matter of secs and how some aoe cleaves are part of it.

Edit: Thief venom share can also be a strong support build if aoe cleaves are not that strong. Aoe need to deal overall less dmg then single atks so that players can choose when to use an aoe and when to use a single target atk. If this changes goes through, eles need some skill change to have some more single target or just have some of the strong aoe tone down so that it will only be a choice to be used during a heavy stacking occur.

Communication is also mostly non-existant in pug teams. It sometimes happens, sometimes not, and is never very in-depth, nor could it ever be, if only because you can’t fight and type in the chat at the same time.

GW1 had a lot of team-play even among pugs, because defined roles are a tried-and-true formula that allows pugs to play in teams. Do you know why the holy trinity was removed from GW2? The devs have said it was removed because of casuals, because of pug players, because of solo players. Ironically, this hasn’t been helping them at all in pvp. And no, I’m not saying this game needs to mimic the role-trinity setup from other mmos, but it certainly needs improvements in this area, because currently, teamplay is almost non-existant among pugs, and even not acchieving its full potential in premade teams.