Guild Wars 2

Jk guardians still have perma retal.

If you actually want the game to become an e-Sport then you need to remove this boon.

Not modify it. Not reduce the damage. Remove it. Because passive damage reflect has absolutely no place in any competitive game.

http://imgur.com/HfOYK

Or the damage has to be reduced by a lot more, their change makes it even harder for classes that attack faster. When I run into a node on my Engi and drop a few bombs I’ve already taken 5k+ damage instantly. It’s like having confusion on you 24/7 with more than double it’s current damage. Bomb 2 pulses and hits multiple times, I’m seeing stacks 25+ before I’ve even changed kits.

FORTY SEVEN

That is all.

You hit a Guardian with retaliation up 47 times, so clearly this boon must be broken.

Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

And exactly what is he meant to do if the Guardian has retaliation up the large majority of the time?

So, your idea is that he should avoid hitting the Guardian when Ret is up? What if Ret is up 100% of the time, or close to it? What should be done then? Your solution is not a solution. Sure, you can let the condition spammers do it, but unless they are also tanky (Necro condition build for instance) they can still kill themselves against Ret. Ask any unicorn Thief.

Dang it! If only there were some way to remove boons from people in this game! Oh, wait…

Yes, he should totally avoid hitting the Guardian while retaliation is up.

Although, I can completely sympathize with the"47" argument, I have to agree that at it’s current state retaliation is a bit excessive. imo, it should be a very quick reactive boon. Something that penalizes someone who is bursting you without paying attention.

Up the potential damage, drastically reduce the duration, I think it would be an interesting skill. Take it from passive to active.

nldixon, name me one trait or skill available to every class that strips boons. I’ll wait. Here’s a hint: not every class even has one, and it’s not suitable or available for every build if they do.

The only method available to everyone is a boon stripping sigil, but that’s on crit, and not everyone builds straight glass cannon with high crit. Maybe builds just go for power and survivability. And it still promotes… You know, hitting the Guardian to trigger. A single boon should not require an extremely specific method of countering. Even if you do remove the boon, Guardians usually have a ton of ways to reapply it. Aside from that, Ret counters the only counter available to every single class. Funny, right? :P

Agree with Diage.

Hey, animosity. I also have a hint for you: PvP is a group effort. If you go charging off solo to try and kill people solo (I’m assuming the OP is a Thief) and you die to a bunker Guardian’s retaliation, you deserve it.

Retaliation is a pain, I agree. It’s far from the worst problem in PvP at the moment and it’s (fairly) easy to counter.

Two things:

1. The Guardian is still pretty close to dead, which makes me think it was a fairly even 1on1, if it was in fact a 1on1. Maybe the Guardian avoided/mitigated the spike damage and forced the OP to spam small hits to play to the Guardian’s strengths. An image of a passive boon doing the majority of the recorded damage is by no means the full story.

2. The Guardian is in the guild “Deal With It”, which I found hilarious considering the context of this thread.

To OP:

Because passive damage reflect has absolutely no place in any competitive game.

Moderator edit: removed content against our Code of Conduct

The most popular and largest prize pool MOBA Game has multiple occurances of Passive and Active Damage reflection in their game and you say it has no place in sPVP.

I’ll be so happy if your words just go ignored.

Retalization needs fixing, and boon removal (As well as quickness, IMO) needs to be a utility that is accessable to every class’s native kit. (It is available as a Sigil, if people are unaware.)

However such bias and crass statments as if you hold any weight or authroity in the field of Player vs Player games is obscene, and a discredit to those making inteligent critisim of the boon.

Using MOBA’s are completely different. You sac an item slot for it. It costs gold. Not to mention the item is only good vs lots of physical damage heroes. Retal is good vs everyone.

Guardians have retal up 100% of the time. There is no farm time to get boon like in a MOBA. There are no max boons that you have to decide “Hmmm protection or retal. Oh the choices”.

But I highly doubt you have “discredited” my intelligence by linking 1 item from LoL.

Passive damage reflect is the lowest form of gameplay possible. There’s a reason why everyone can play a bunker guardian. Because it’s impossible to screw up on a class that doesn’t need to do anything to kill someone.

To the people who think retal is fine:

In a game where not all classes have access to a spammable boon removal vs a spammable retaliation, why do you think it’s fine you need two classes to take out one?

Why do you think it’s fine for someone to do absolutely nothing, and by doing nothing, do 2x-3x the damage of their normal abilities?

Why do you think players should be punished for playing the game, while the player doing nothing is rewarded?

If only I had a replay of the fight to watch. Alas, I’ll never know the true story. This thread’s too emotional for any sort of logical discussion on how the fight actually went.

Pretty sure the devs never intended for retaliation to have anywhere near 100% uptime. It’s unlikely they ever intended it to have more than 10% uptime. It’s exceedingly likely that retal uptime on Guardians will see further nerfs in the future.

It was a simple 1v1 vs my friend. He has retal up 100% of the time. He’s low, but his heal is off CD.

My warrior has no boon removal.

I just thought it was funny that his passive damage reflect did as much damage as all his other abilities COMBINED. And find it more confusing as to why Arena Net thinks this boon benefits their game play somehow.

Anet Net has created a class where doing nothing is rewarded more so than playing the game.

If you ever calm down, I’m going to ask questions about what your main sources of damage were and generally inquire about the fight. Until emotion submits to logic, I’ll be playing the game.

For a warrior to hit a guardian 47 times and guard to not die, Im guessing 1h sword?

If that’s the case then this is exactly what retal does. It punishes fast attacks.

If you we’re using a GS or a rifle or something… Then you just got outplayed bud or something went terribly wrong because warriors that I fight hit hard.

Also, fighting a guard without boom strips is like fighting a necro without condition removal; you’re gonna have a bad time.

What’s there to inquire?

This is about retal. A passive damage boon that did more damage than the guardian did combined.

That should be ringing bells in your head.

His attack skills did more damage than retaliation and you almost got him maby next time you will? one thing is for sure crying on forum wont get you better on pvp.

nldixon.8514:

Hey, animosity. I also have a hint for you: PvP is a group effort. If you go charging off solo to try and kill people solo (I’m assuming the OP is a Thief) and you die to a bunker Guardian’s retaliation, you deserve it.

Retaliation is a pain, I agree. It’s far from the worst problem in PvP at the moment and it’s (fairly) easy to counter.

Well, apparently you’re not even reading the entire OP, or looking at the pic. He’s clearly a Warrior. You also don’t seem to be able to grasp basic concepts.

Let’s say I’m on an Elementalist, find me a boon-stripping ability. Please. Now let’s say I’m with a Ranger going to kill this bunker. Again, find me a boon stripping ability, please. I’ll give you a hint, Elementalists don’t have any. Period. At all. Nada. Oh, same with Rangers. Go look at the other classes and count how many boon stripping abilities are available. Again, you won’t find many. Again, they are low-chance procs, or have relatively high CDs, so retaliation being stripped once doesn’t mean a thing. How did you not get this before?

There is no effective counter to Ret besides zerging him except maybe Null Field, and the obvious choice of condition damage. As I stated before, most condition builds will still kill themselves on Ret, ask any unicorn Thief or Bleed SB Ranger. The idea is you have to bring multiple members of your team (which is already necessary for good bunkers) in order to zerg him before succumbing to Ret. Are you beginning to see the problem, yet?

Reta just needs an icd just like confusion.

Animosity.5231:

Superior Sigil of Nullification

Let’s say I’m on an Elementalist, find me a boon-stripping ability. Please. Now let’s say I’m with a Ranger going to kill this bunker. Again, find me a boon stripping ability

Tom, did you not read -anything- else that I said? Not every power build builds crit, same for condition builds. Even if they did, it’s one boon, on a CD, and you’re not guaranteed a proc by any stretch of the imagination anyway. Even if it were, and had the ICD, you do realize it’s not guaranteed to remove Ret out of all of their other possible boons, and even if it does 10 seconds is more than enough time to re-apply Ret.

If you’re saying we should be speccing multiple people in order to remove a single boon one class can apply a lot of… You still don’t see the problem? Seriously?

well if there was a guaranteed spammable boon stripping ability then obviously it would be OP since the enemy would be unable to use boons so that’s your best choice. from my personal experience in wvw theif and engineer is better counter to guardians than elementalist.

I never said a spammable, guaranteed boon stripping mechanism would be good for the game, I was simply pointing out that the Sigil is not a counter in the least. One, it’s countered by Ret, two it’s unreliable in the extreme, three, Ret has such high uptime it’s pointless to use the sigil in the first place. Every class should have access to something akin to Null Field that strips all boons for some seconds. It allows someone an opening, albeit a short one, to deal with the problem. It obviously should take up a U-skill, and a long CD. I just want something reliable, not spammable and reliable. Some classes don’t have anything at all, though.

Lucky for everyone in this thread, this isn’t a 1v1 game, it’s team based. I feel like I’ve heard that somewhere before…

Tbh, I wouldn’t aim Guardians at all nor even bother dueling them. Simply because its just pointless since it takes no skill to be a Guardian vs. a Warrior and maybe even a Thief in a legit duel. Team fighting is a different story, still an annoying class to deal with though.

Retal with 100% uptime or anywhere close is just stupid. Arenanet needs to get off the pot and decide what retal is.

1) Retal is a short duration, high damage ability used to punish someone who just attacks you through its duration. If so, uptime should be about 10-20% of the time at most, and the damage should be increased by about 50%.

2) Retal is an always up, modest damage reflect. If so, damage needs to be tuned down to about ~100ish per hit.

Right now it is both which is just stupid.

I generally agree that passive damage reflect in a MMO setting is an overall detriment to gameplay. MOBA’s are different for a variety of reasons, so there’s little use comparing them.

The easiest justification I can come up with is Tera which, at one point, allowed people to get flat 30% damage reflect through armor stats (and it might still be that way, I haven’t played in a few months). It was among the single greatest detriments to competitive PvP in the entire game. Burst classes got trashed on for bursting, AoE classes annihilated themselves in large fights, and healers ran around in circles doing jack kitten while their opponents slowly killed themselves.

Retal isn’t quite as bad, but 100% uptime is getting there and all in all I just don’t believe passive reflect should exist in competitive environments – or if it has to exist, then make sure it’s only available for a very limited time so that people are forced to blow it smartly.

Well, you had time to hit him 47 times. Which suggests to me that it was a pretty long fight and you were not simply instagibbed by Retaliation, unlike many rogue and warrior skills.

Wait til you do a fight with a mesmer that spreads his retaliation on top of popping iDefender (that technically spreads his retaliation in a way that stacks). Double aoe retaliation, hilarious.

Relentliss.2170:

Well, you had time to hit him 47 times. Which suggests to me that it was a pretty long fight and you were not simply instagibbed by Retaliation, unlike many rogue and warrior skills.

Or it meant he was using a skill that hit alot in a short amount of time with absolutely no benefit. (Those skills have no benefit for being rapid multi-hit anymore since procs have cooldowns).

Not to mention it’s still 47 hits worth of Retaliation Dmg the guardian did absolutely nothing to achieve except passively proc retaliation on himself.

Retaliation really needs to be a short burst boon meant to counter attacks, it’s the same problem with 100% uptime Healing Debuffs, they need to be used with thought and be rewarded for it, not be completely thoughtless and occasionally stupid strong.

@nldixon

So what you’re saying is that it requires a team to take out a guardian.

Your definition of “balanced game play” is fascinating. Please, continue.

I’m saying the game is balanced around team play, not solo play.

Daays.4317:

Jk guardians still have perma retal.

If you actually want the game to become an e-Sport then you need to remove this boon.

Not modify it. Not reduce the damage. Remove it. Because passive damage reflect has absolutely no place in any competitive game.

http://imgur.com/HfOYK

wow only 10k damage in 47 hits that’s not very good at all that’s like 227 damage per hit and looking at his other damage dealt its all pretty bad that wimpy 227 extra damage you gave him still prob made him fall short, way short

my guardian would have hit you more than twice that hard.

you think that’s bad try and AoE in a 5v5 group fight with retal on everyone.

I agree Zin, i think MMO’s main thing to keep people playing are the ever changing game that you get with an MMO. but in the world of e-Sports thats not what you want AT ALL. if you get a system that works or is balance you want very slow controlled changes once they do come to pass.

But an MMO in its self can’t work like this. its not GW2 its the MMO format. But if any MMO was to do it…. I would think it could have been GW2!

nldixon.8514:

I’m saying the game is balanced around team play, not solo play.

Like I said, when you require a team to kill one class that’s not balance.

There is a reason why tank classes are a requirement right now, why playing with 3-4 tank classes is actually viable, why they are determining the meta game.

Because they aren’t balanced. When you require a team to kill one class, but don’t require a team to kill others. When you punish people for playing the game and reward players for sitting there jumping in circles, that’s not good game design.

The whole “it’s a team game” has and always will be a cop out to excuse bad game design and poor balance decisions.

How do you go from smacking someone (who did kitten for damage, btw) FORTY SEVEN times @ about 230 damage each hit – to saying you need a whole team to kill the guy.

YOU HIT HIM FORTY SEVEN TIMES when he had Retaliation active. Quit doing that, start being a little more patient, and I promise you bunker builds are not unbeatable. Also… he would have never had the damage to kill you had you not endlessly beat on him while he had his main source of damage active.

Daays.4317:

nldixon.8514:

I’m saying the game is balanced around team play, not solo play.

Like I said, when you require a team to kill one class that’s not balance.

There is a reason why tank classes are a requirement right now, why playing with 3-4 tank classes is actually viable, why they are determining the meta game.

Because they aren’t balanced. When you require a team to kill one class, but don’t require a team to kill others. When you punish people for playing the game and reward players for sitting there jumping in circles, that’s not good game design.

The whole “it’s a team game” has and always will be a cop out to excuse bad game design and poor balance decisions.

It doesn’t require a team. There are plenty of ways to deal with retaliation that don’t require you killing yourself.

I’m sorry that you don’t understand this and seem to want to default to “it takes a team”. It does not take a team. Does it take teamwork? Yes, unless you happen to be able to counter retaliation easily.

Sorry that the objective based, teamwork game doesn’t allow you to solo duel with the results (i.e., winning) you want.

What does a Guardian have to do to keep Retal up 100% of the time? Just curious.

Also, how many times did you auto-attack/otherwise use abilities that are low on damage because you felt the need to keep attack when your high-damage abilities were on CD? Just curious.

Notice that the guardian is using sword and scepter mainhand. The retaliation nerf that guardian received was through the greatsword nerf.

He is therefore obviously NOT getting his retaliation from his weapon sets, and thus presumably from utility skills (high cooldown). The question rather is how would he be getting “perma” retaliation with his utility skills alone? It shouldn’t be possible, or perhaps you just did all your crazy multi-burst with frenzy or something while he pop a retaliation. Its pretty obvious from his weapon sets he has quite a low uptime on retaliation.

Note: With the right traits for it, he gets 3 sec of retal for popping a virtue (long cool-down as well).

Something sounds off….

Cogbyrn.7283:

What does a Guardian have to do to keep Retal up 100% of the time? Just curious.

Also, how many times did you auto-attack/otherwise use abilities that are low on damage because you felt the need to keep attack when your high-damage abilities were on CD? Just curious.

Once again, this isn’t about a duel. This is about retal doing as much damage as all his abilities combined.

Not one person has answered this. So please, try. Try your hardest.

I will ask it again.

Why do you think a passive damage reflect should out damage all of his abilities combined. Do you really want to reward not playing the game over actually using abilities?

deception.7239:

Something sounds off….

Your knowledge of the game.

Retal doesn’t need to be removed, but it needs to be more strategic in application rather than the 95% ret uptime seen on most guardians.

However, Anet already stated that they were going to be moving away from the kind of retaliation duration (basically perma) we’ve all witnessed on bunker guardians. Just give it some time, its clearly not working as originally intended so it will be fixed.

I’d rather have them apply an effective, more permanent, fix than just rushing to a retal on cd or a ‘cannot be applied more than once every 20 seconds’ or something.

And for those who think using a sigil slot with a 60% chance on crit (some builds have ~5% crit chance…) to remove a boon is a good idea, you should probably rethink things. One of the biggest problems is that ret can be reapplied so easily – and having to sigil just for a single build on a single class you might not even run into is so ridiculous that it actually cripples gameplay.

Daays.4317:

@Sky

Please refrain from being ignorant.

First off, this was a duel. I just found it…entertaining that him doing nothing provided the same benefit as using ALL OF HIS ABILITIES COMBINED. I want you to think about that for a second. Chew on it. Savor it. Then ask yourself if that’s good game design.

Second, he has retal up 100% of the time. There is no “waiting”.

Third, the design of a bunker class is to delay for backup to come. Not to kill. So “not attacking” isn’t an option because you’re effectively playing into the role of what the class was meant to do.

I’m not sure you understand what ignorant means. We’ll just let that go.

First – if this was a duel, then what do you care about how long it takes? He obviously didn’t “do nothing”, and I would just like to point out again that YOU HIT HIM FORTY SEVEN TIMES and killed yourself 230 HP at a time. This wasn’t unexpected, surely, because after #41 you could have stopped and still had 1400 HP left.

Second – No, he doesn’t. Not if he is by himself, not with what we can tell from that death recap. You are simply ignorant of Guardian abilities and cooldowns. (see how that works, let’s refrain from being ignorant)

Third – Yes, that’s right. His job is to stall you, and he should have never killed you alone. Alas… you just killed yourself on a boon that is clearly displayed by his health bar, and which clearly wasn’t up 100% of the time. It was up long enough for you to hit him 47 times though.

This is a L2P problem. I’m not saying there aren’t possibly problems with Retal in certain builds… I am saying this build isn’t one of them and you killed yourself because you were (and seem to still be) ignorant about your opponent.

Sky.9347:

Daays.4317:

@Sky

Please refrain from being ignorant.

First off, this was a duel. I just found it…entertaining that him doing nothing provided the same benefit as using ALL OF HIS ABILITIES COMBINED. I want you to think about that for a second. Chew on it. Savor it. Then ask yourself if that’s good game design.

Second, he has retal up 100% of the time. There is no “waiting”.

Third, the design of a bunker class is to delay for backup to come. Not to kill. So “not attacking” isn’t an option because you’re effectively playing into the role of what the class was meant to do.

I’m not sure you understand what ignorant means. We’ll just let that go.

First – if this was a duel, then what do you care about how long it takes? He obviously didn’t “do nothing”, and I would just like to point out again that YOU HIT HIM FORTY SEVEN TIMES and killed yourself 230 HP at a time. This wasn’t unexpected, surely, because after #41 you could have stopped and still had 1400 HP left.

Second – No, he doesn’t. Not if he is by himself, not with what we can tell from that death recap. You are simply ignorant of Guardian abilities and cooldowns. (see how that works, let’s refrain from being ignorant)

Third – Yes, that’s right. His job is to stall you, and he should have never killed you alone. Alas… you just killed yourself on a boon that is clearly displayed by his health bar, and which clearly wasn’t up 100% of the time. It was up long enough for you to hit him 47 times though.

This is a L2P problem. I’m not saying there aren’t possibly problems with Retal in certain builds… I am saying this build isn’t one of them and you killed yourself because you were (and seem to still be) ignorant about your opponent.

You don’t know the build for perma retal.

You think it’s fine that a passive damage reflect should do as much damage as all of his abilties combined.

You think people should just not attack bunker classes.

And I’m the one who is ignorant.

Well, at least this post wasn’t directed at you. More to Anet. In which they feel the same way. Was simply giving them an update on how their battle against retal is going.

Not very well.

Did you miss my question? How is he getting 100% retaliation uptime when he is using a sword and scepter mainhand? (obviously not just from his utilities and virtues)

-Please review the guardian skills.

deception.7239:

Did you miss my question? How is he getting 100% retaliation uptime when he is using a sword and scepter mainhand? (obviously not just from his utilities and virtues)

-Please review the guardian skills.

I multi-class all classes.

You should probably review the skills first.

Daays.4317:

Sky.9347:

Daays.4317:

@Sky

Please refrain from being ignorant.

First off, this was a duel. I just found it…entertaining that him doing nothing provided the same benefit as using ALL OF HIS ABILITIES COMBINED. I want you to think about that for a second. Chew on it. Savor it. Then ask yourself if that’s good game design.

Second, he has retal up 100% of the time. There is no “waiting”.

Third, the design of a bunker class is to delay for backup to come. Not to kill. So “not attacking” isn’t an option because you’re effectively playing into the role of what the class was meant to do.

I’m not sure you understand what ignorant means. We’ll just let that go.

First – if this was a duel, then what do you care about how long it takes? He obviously didn’t “do nothing”, and I would just like to point out again that YOU HIT HIM FORTY SEVEN TIMES and killed yourself 230 HP at a time. This wasn’t unexpected, surely, because after #41 you could have stopped and still had 1400 HP left.

Second – No, he doesn’t. Not if he is by himself, not with what we can tell from that death recap. You are simply ignorant of Guardian abilities and cooldowns. (see how that works, let’s refrain from being ignorant)

Third – Yes, that’s right. His job is to stall you, and he should have never killed you alone. Alas… you just killed yourself on a boon that is clearly displayed by his health bar, and which clearly wasn’t up 100% of the time. It was up long enough for you to hit him 47 times though.

This is a L2P problem. I’m not saying there aren’t possibly problems with Retal in certain builds… I am saying this build isn’t one of them and you killed yourself because you were (and seem to still be) ignorant about your opponent.

You don’t know the build for perma retal.

You think it’s fine that a passive damage reflect should do as much damage as all of his abilties combined.

You think people should just not attack bunker classes.

And I’m the one who is ignorant.

Well, at least this post wasn’t directed at you. More to Anet. In which they feel the same way. Was simply giving them an update on how their battle against retal is going.

Not very well.

Of course I know the build. I’ve played Guardian since the first BWE.
This line you’re spouting about “did more than all of his abilities combined” is irrelevant. Retaliation is the primary source of damage in his build. This is like saying… “so it’s okay that Backstab did more damage than all his other abilities combined?!?!!”… yea, it’s fine. It didn’t do that much damage, only 230 per hit. You shouldn’t have hit him 47 times.

You are ignorant. His build doesn’t have 100% Retal. uptime.

I agree that 100% uptime on Retal is a bad thing. This situation is not that situation, though.

I think if you are going to attack and kill a bunker, you should be looking at removing boons, watching for retaliation, and generally being more patient.

Sky.9347:

I think if you are going to attack and kill a bunker, you should be looking at removing boons, watching for retaliation, and generally being more patient.

Be more patient? Against a class that is designed to delay? How do you not see the problem with this? Being patient doesn’t counter the guardian. You play right into his hand.

Remove boons? As a warrior? With what abilities? Besides, what’s 1 boon removal on a cooldown going to do vs spammable retal? Heaven forbid it doesn’t get retal. Not like all classes have null field or corrupt boon.

Which then requires you to have a teammate around. So now you’re saying that you need a team to take out one class. Which means that class isn’t balanced.

Which is why bunker classes are determining team comps right now. Because they’re too strong to pass up.

Please, keep showing how you’re “not ignorant”.

But I say that in jest. Being ignorant btw isn’t a bad thing. It just means you don’t know.

Now you know. And knowing is half the battle.

Daays.4317:

deception.7239:

Did you miss my question? How is he getting 100% retaliation uptime when he is using a sword and scepter mainhand? (obviously not just from his utilities and virtues)

-Please review the guardian skills.

I multi-class all classes.

You should probably review the skills first.

Same here, I play all 8 classes.

I’m still at lost though, so please explain.

From the deathcap: First, he is using sword + scepter mainhand, both doesn’t give retaliation or a light field to combo off. Secondly none of the offhands weapons give retaliation either.

So, he is either triggering retaliation from his virtues with the trait to give 3 sec of retaliation/virtue (long cool-down). He could also be triggering it from utilities skills, but none of the utilities skills allow for high retaliation uptime. Could it be other traits? Maybe, but three are only a few, but it gives a very short retaliation (3 sec). Wraithful spirit used to be bugged and could give a VERY long retaliation, but its fixed.

So…. Please enlighten me?

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliation