Guild Wars 2

Alright, I’ve read plenty of posts here that demand the nerf of the classes that abuse celestial amulet. While I completely agree that cele is out of hand, I’d rather point out my own thoughts as to why the meta needs to shift. No salt, or waterworks.

With all of the prior cash tournaments, and the future ones to come; we as a community, have to go off of the assumption that Arenanet would like to continue to push towards the dream, “Esports”. I would like to lay that as the ground work because this is 90% of my argument, and where I base my ideas off of. If that assumption is confirmed as false by Arenanet, then null and void any of the posts concerning “balances”. So, here’s my thoughts:

A game that is striving to become esports needs to be a spectator sport. Many streamers, and competitive players have said this time and time again. While everyone has their own thoughts as to how to make this better, I will make it simple. The game needs to be exciting to watch. Viewers WANT to see the “oh kitten” moments and the “heads up” plays. Celestial amulets and bruiser builds don’t cater to the exciting moments to be had in this game. More-so than most, this game demands mechanically well-rounded, and fast twitch game play. When one player/team beats another, it SHOULD be based off of them being better than the other player/team. Celestial amulet is so forgiving that it doesn’t truly matter if you dodge or mitigate damage, you can simply face tank it. For the past two major tournaments (WTS and All-Stars), I have fallen asleep while watching the stream due to general lack of captivation. Big plays, get big views. Honestly, golf has more exciting plays than Guild Wars 2 right now.

My goal here isn’t to flame anyone (despite popular belief), or belittle the community. But, let’s be real, players who were considered low to mid tier are now bathing in the light of e-fame due to celestial amulet alone. Reserve the cash tournaments for the players who dedicate endless hours to being better duelists, and team players. These are the type of players who spend hours attempting to be mechanically flawless on their zerk builds because one mistake, or mis-timed dodge, may be the end of them. These are the guys I want to watch, and these are the guys I want to root for. The groundwork for an amazingly competitive game has been laid, but it’s almost as if it’s being ignored so as to appeal to casual players. At the end of the day, I should want to strive to play like my favorite player, or team. I shouldn’t be able to pick up the controls and be playing at the same level as these “top tier” players within a matter of days, or even hours. Granted, some classes/builds have naturally lower skill floors than others, but what I’m asking is for Anet to raise the skill cap.

I’ve been very ambiguous in this thread, so I apologize for not coming with the “solutions” to the problem. Frankly, there’s a ridiculous number of ways this meta can shift into something more constructive for the e-sports scene. There are tons of more intelligent players than I that can dish out multiple approaches for change. If you wanted help, I’d give it. But for the past two and a half years it’s been less about listening to the community, and more about being too prideful to admit defeat. Put your hands up in the air, ask for help, and apply feedback.

TL;DR: Nerf Celestial Amulet.

Sounds like you’d be a fan of team Radioactive, hard to find my zerker and team kill plays then that I’m completely with you by the way, if you could, please repost that in my thread https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/I-made-a-FLOWCHART-for-the-Meta-Enjoy-1/page/2#post4641097

That thread happens to be full of salt. Seems to have went to finger pointing pretty quickly :O.

IMO, the current meta celestial ele and celestial rifle engie builds take way more skill to play than the previous meta builds (spirit ranger, hambow before adrenaline nerfs, dhuumfire necro). So I’m not sure I agree with the idea of celestial carrying bad/average players to the top of WTS and other tournaments.

That said, I agree with the idea of making games more interesting to watch, with room for “big plays.” But I think big game-changing plays need to come more from map design and game-mode mechanics. For example, a lot of the big “exciting” plays in tournament games right now revolve around clutch lord rushes or treb shots (and, if spirit watch is ever added, orb caps). These are things that viewers can see coming, and the risk/reward is very apparent.

I don’t think you’ll be able to create exciting big plays through balance changes alone. Watching two zerker thieves fight, for example, isn’t particularly exciting and mostly boils down to sigil procs.

The DPS portion of celestial is fine, the defense portion needs a nerf. It has 800 more stats than a typical amulet so the stats definitely need shaving.

Amir.1570:

The DPS portion of celestial is fine, the defense portion needs a nerf. It has 800 more stats than a typical amulet so the stats definitely need shaving.

I think at the very base of it all, celestial amulet could be “okay” in concept. But, with engi’s and ele’s might stacking as high as they do, it promotes continuous power creep the longer the fight goes on. It’s really a broken mechanic that’s being abused way too much. If celestial amulet was just defensive in nature, I probably would have no problem with it.

ResJudicator.7916:

IMO, the current meta celestial ele and celestial rifle engie builds take way more skill to play than the previous meta builds (spirit ranger, hambow before adrenaline nerfs, dhuumfire necro). So I’m not sure I agree with the idea of celestial carrying bad/average players to the top of WTS and other tournaments.

That said, I agree with the idea of making games more interesting to watch, with room for “big plays.” But I think big game-changing plays need to come more from map design and game-mode mechanics. For example, a lot of the big “exciting” plays in tournament games right now revolve around clutch lord rushes or treb shots (and, if spirit watch is ever added, orb caps). These are things that viewers can see coming, and the risk/reward is very apparent.

I don’t think you’ll be able to create exciting big plays through balance changes alone. Watching two zerker thieves fight, for example, isn’t particularly exciting and mostly boils down to sigil procs.

You know, I contemplated listing every broken class/build that has come to light since I’ve began playing this game all this time ago. I figured it wasn’t worth it. While I would agree it’s not as “facepalm” worthy as spirit rangers or hambow warriors, it still is extremely painful to watch and play. But, I do agree with your opinion geared towards mechanic changes. Although, I’ve always personally believed you should fix balance first, then anything supplementary after that.

There have been several good posts on how to shave ele and eng without gutting the celestial amulet (and I hope they do).
That being said, this game has too many instant abilities/ broken mechanics to allow for a power/zerker meta without sidelining the majority of proffs imo.
Currently the only zerkers are thieves and mesmers (barely). Without large alterations to most proff’s, this isn’t likely to change and I’m not sure watching the above 2 classes insta ganking each other would be much more entertaining than what we have now.

They did a good job giving counterplay to Pindown and Point Blank Shot. Perhaps its time to give counterplay to Overcharge Shot/Updraft/etc except for “oh he’s running towards me now, he might overcharge, let’s random dodge”

dylan.5409:

There have been several good posts on how to shave ele and eng without gutting the celestial amulet (and I hope they do).
That being said, this game has too many instant abilities/ broken mechanics to allow for a power/zerker meta without sidelining the majority of proffs imo.
Currently the only proff’s that can play zerker are thieves and mesmers (if they have support) and im not sure a bunch of zerker builds insta ganking each other is more entertaining than what we have now.

Well, we had the heavy power meta about 2 years ago. Indeed there were ganks to be had, but more often than not it literally came down to which team had the most map/situational awareness. “I just burned this ele’s last stun break, spike target in 3-2-1.” This was actually the meta where tons of teams were starting to utilize rez utilities as well. At times, it came down to something as clutch as one team’s necro making a “heads-up” fear on the incoming rez sig. Generally, you couldn’t over extended. Teams had to make pushes together, as a team, and synchronized. Now, people just run around do whatever the kitten they want with no fear of the reprecussions. I think every class has tried and true dps builds.

theoutsider.7849:

They did a good job giving counterplay to Pindown and Point Blank Shot. Perhaps its time to give counterplay to Overcharge Shot/Updraft/etc except for “oh he’s running towards me now, he might overcharge, let’s random dodge”

+1

DevilsGlare.7658:

dylan.5409:

There have been several good posts on how to shave ele and eng without gutting the celestial amulet (and I hope they do).
That being said, this game has too many instant abilities/ broken mechanics to allow for a power/zerker meta without sidelining the majority of proffs imo.
Currently the only proff’s that can play zerker are thieves and mesmers (if they have support) and im not sure a bunch of zerker builds insta ganking each other is more entertaining than what we have now.

Well, we had the heavy power meta about 2 years ago. Indeed there were ganks to be had, but more often than not it literally came down to which team had the most map/situational awareness. “I just burned this ele’s last stun break, spike target in 3-2-1.” This was actually the meta where tons of teams were starting to utilize rez utilities as well. At times, it came down to something as clutch as one team’s necro making a “heads-up” fear on the incoming rez sig. Generally, you couldn’t over extended. Teams had to make pushes together, as a team, and synchronized. Now, people just run around do whatever the kitten they want with no fear of the reprecussions. I think every class has tried and true dps builds.

I know what you mean, Crysis kittenes at me (like he should) every time I try to roam like an ele. (I play zerk power necro)

i support this… i don’t watch any streams anymore for that very reason… it is extremely boring

I do see you’re point op.
Anet needs to find the balance point between making good generalists for content like soloq/hotjoin/wvwvw and strong specific roles for more organized play tpvp and they obviously haven’t yet.

I actually like this meta. It’s not perfect, but its the best we’ve had so far and I’d watch this meta over Spirit Ranger, Hambow or boring Guardian “teamfight at mid” clusterkittens any day. The power meta at this games launch which you pointed out was horrendous and a big reason why the majority of veteran WoW players left the game after trying it for a couple of months.
You guys seem to be so unhappy with this, without realizing that at any point during any meta people were be unhappy with it.

And it’s gonna stay that way because Arenanet is never going to achieve the perfect balance. It is simply too hard to achieve.

TLDR: People will always be unhappy with anything that happens in games such as this because everyone thinks they have the best grasp of the mechanics, balance and everything else.

theoutsider.7849:

I actually like this meta. It’s not perfect, but its the best we’ve had so far and I’d watch this meta over Spirit Ranger, Hambow or boring Guardian “teamfight at mid” clusterkittens any day. The power meta at this games launch which you pointed out was horrendous and a big reason why the majority of veteran WoW players left the game after trying it for a couple of months.
You guys seem to be so unhappy with this, without realizing that at any point during any meta people were be unhappy with it.

And it’s gonna stay that way because Arenanet is never going to achieve the perfect balance. It is simply too hard to achieve.

TLDR: People will always be unhappy with anything that happens in games such as this because everyone thinks they have the best grasp of the mechanics, balance and everything else.

OF COURSE there will be people unhappy with any meta, That is why the game should be updated more than once every 6 months to keep everyone guessing, and keep everyone having fun.

No one ever wants to be locked in to playing one thing, the same way, forever.

That is pretty much what it all comes down to. This game would be so much more fun if there were frequent updates and balance changes like in other popular PvP games.
Instead, Arenanet just keeps it stale and boring.

theoutsider.7849:

I actually like this meta. It’s not perfect, but its the best we’ve had so far and I’d watch this meta over Spirit Ranger, Hambow or boring Guardian “teamfight at mid” clusterkittens any day. The power meta at this games launch which you pointed out was horrendous and a big reason why the majority of veteran WoW players left the game after trying it for a couple of months.
You guys seem to be so unhappy with this, without realizing that at any point during any meta people were be unhappy with it.

And it’s gonna stay that way because Arenanet is never going to achieve the perfect balance. It is simply too hard to achieve.

TLDR: People will always be unhappy with anything that happens in games such as this because everyone thinks they have the best grasp of the mechanics, balance and everything else.

Most players from that generation quit due to a lack of rewards system, tournament scene, and bug fixes. As a matter of fact, MOST of the competitive players that played during that time frame, want it back and wish it had never moved into the direction it has.

I’m not sure if you know this, but they had absolutely nothing available for players during that time frame. In terms of leaderboards, ranked queues, etc.

theoutsider.7849:

That is pretty much what it all comes down to. This game would be so much more fun if there were frequent updates and balance changes like in other popular PvP games.
Instead, Arenanet just keeps it stale and boring.

They would actually need a balance team in order to do that. They just have that one guy who doesn’t seem like he really has a whole lot of interest in gw2.

The stat bonus is too much. It makes it the best amulet on all classes, despite some being better suited to it than others.

I dont think a might nerf would work either. That would just weaken eles and engineers but still make it the best amulet for classes overall.

It should go all together IMO.

this thread is great and summarizes one of the obstacles to gw2’s pvp going places. I just wish they committed more resources to balancing the game on a monthly basis.

DevilsGlare.7658:

Amir.1570:

The DPS portion of celestial is fine, the defense portion needs a nerf. It has 800 more stats than a typical amulet so the stats definitely need shaving.

I think at the very base of it all, celestial amulet could be “okay” in concept. But, with engi’s and ele’s might stacking as high as they do, it promotes continuous power creep the longer the fight goes on. It’s really a broken mechanic that’s being abused way too much. If celestial amulet was just defensive in nature, I probably would have no problem with it.

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, retired #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Where do you get Engi might stacking from! Engis don’t stack might! The only way they get might is through Battle Sigil and Strength/Hoelbrak Runes which any other class can do! Please don’t lump Engineers with Elementalists! It’s crazy to think that a class that gets 100-0’d by any lesser skilled condi Necromancer in 3 seconds flat could be considered OP!

Also the amulet is fine! Obviously the total amount of stats that Celestial Amulet gives needs to be higher than other amulets because the highest stat on the Celestial Amulet is much much lower than even the secondary stats on other ones! If you matched the number of stat points given it will just be the old Celestial Amulet, ie totally useless! Worse than even Rampager Amulet! Geez louise my frands it’s like you just randomly pluck things out of the air and try to convert them into “issues”! Crazy!

Anyway my frands like I said in the other thread, even if you do nerf the stats on the Celestial Amulet, DD Elementalists still are the only class with permanent vigor, have crazy amounts of protection uptime, tons of sustain for them and their team, condi clear for their entire team, crazy burn uptime, stacking 25 might for their entire team, etc! Clearly the issue isn’t Celestial Amulet but rather the fact that a DD Elementalist can be a better bunker than a Guardian against both power and condi classes and still have more mobility and also deal crazy amounts of damage!

Changes that Vee Wee would like to see!

Battle Sigil and blast finishers inside fire fields grant 2 stacks of might instead of 3! (PvP only!)
Sigil of Intelligence makes your next 2 attacks crit down from 3!

• Drake’s Breath burn duration reduced to from 3 to 2 seconds! Cooldown increased from 5 to 10 seconds!
• Ring of Fire duration reduced from 6 to 5 seconds!
• Frozen Burst removed blast finisher!
• Lightning Whip’s first hit damage reduced by 50%! Second hit damage increased by 50%!
• Armor of Earth stability and protection time decreased to 5 from 6 seconds!
• Elemental Shielding now master trait! Geomancer’s Freedom now adept trait!
• Removed vigor from Soothing Disruption!
• Renewing Stamina cooldown increased from 5 to 10 seconds!
• Shatterstone now applies 2 stacks of bleed for 10 seconds instead of 4 stacks of vulnerability for 15 seconds! How does jagged icicle that explodes into tiny razor sharp icy shrapnel not apply bleed! It’s really ruining my condi ele build!

• Prybar damage reduced by 10%!
• Shrapnel Grenade cooldown increased from 5 to 7 seconds!
• Overcharged Shot range decreased from 400 to 300!
• Healing Turret cast time increased from 0.5 to 0.75 seconds!

• Necromancers now start with 15% life force at the beginning of a match!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

+1 The change this game needs is just as important as the way the game is presented. However I feel that even if a individual or the community as a whole had the answers on how to make this game balanced and exciting to watch, that by the time it has been implemented the community might lose interest. It’s like a 56k dial up connection trying to download a huge file, It’s going to take a long time. I feel they simply don’t have the resources.

Countless

Vain My Love <3 #NerfCele

FEEED ME MOAR DRAMA PLEASE

Please keep this thread drama free, mine has already been invaded.

I just don’t find it fair to other classes.

The engineer and the elementalist are indeed the jack of all trades.

Where does that leave all the other classes?

“But we can be killed by a good condi necro!” But you can beat the crap out of every other class.

I don’t think its a celestial problem, I think it’s a profession balance problem.

Jelzouki.4128:

I don’t think its a celestial problem, I think it’s a profession balance problem.

Except for the fact that both of those classes use celestial in their main build and would most likely not win as many match ups with any other amulet.

I agree with the topic creator. Skill requirement to compete gets lower instead of higher due to the sustain(celestial all around) meta, and the skill/team level to play something not sustain is at least 3 times more required right now.
The games are boring as they can get, there can be very few turnarounds and to be honest if they happen with 4 sustain and a thief on your team then your team is not good enough.

This can easily change with the celestial nerf. Zerkers will be back on track, but due to the skill level dropping, cause there is no need to dodge the burst right now but tank it and heal it, zerker specs will feel OP but in fact they will be equal.
For the record I don’t consider sd acrobatics trickery thief glass cannon, but sustain. The spec is wrong it can zone out any berserker in game and be on evade frames forever almost and the skill cap for it is minimal.

Firebird.8324:

theoutsider.7849:

I actually like this meta. It’s not perfect, but its the best we’ve had so far and I’d watch this meta over Spirit Ranger, Hambow or boring Guardian “teamfight at mid” clusterkittens any day. The power meta at this games launch which you pointed out was horrendous and a big reason why the majority of veteran WoW players left the game after trying it for a couple of months.
You guys seem to be so unhappy with this, without realizing that at any point during any meta people were be unhappy with it.

And it’s gonna stay that way because Arenanet is never going to achieve the perfect balance. It is simply too hard to achieve.

TLDR: People will always be unhappy with anything that happens in games such as this because everyone thinks they have the best grasp of the mechanics, balance and everything else.

OF COURSE there will be people unhappy with any meta, That is why the game should be updated more than once every 6 months to keep everyone guessing, and keep everyone having fun.

No one ever wants to be locked in to playing one thing, the same way, forever.

I would agree, if it weren’t for the massive pve nerfs. Some recent pvp meta shift profession changes really hurt pve badly, and make the game even more ‘bland’. Like the several ‘tune down’ actions against clones/phantasms, makes mesmer in pve really boring/unsatisfying/feeling weak after a while. Spirit ranger could be fun, but now it’s out of the question.

Shortbow was pve/wvw fun. Now it’s lackluster in both pvp (although in full rabid builds slightly usefull still), and especially in wvw/pve. This fixed nothing. Yet the nerf is permanent. The permanent loss of good weapon is there for eternity. Cause Arenanet is to scared to really boost skills a lot, it means only nerfs will come, if Esport is their priority. And endless nerfs are only good for pvp (to keep it alive and moving), but it kills it fast for pve/wvw, and slowly for pvp.

Some ppl believe perma nerfing, to keep meta shifting is good no matter what. They are wrong too. Because there will be a piont, where the game becomes so bland, that every skill has same range, damage, skill description and cooldown, so that rock paper scissors is even more fun then the game. Nerfing to much makes the game boring.

While I understand the lauch game wasn’t balanced, it had something the game barely has left some excitement, feeling powerfull, like you can make a difference. For instance while MS is still potent, it’s not a scary skill anymore. At launch game when you casted it you felt like ‘wow, this might really shift the battle’. Now granted it could be argued this takes less skill, but again it makes the game more flat and boring. More nerfs at this point, would take it so such a flat level, it would hurt the game to much.

So I really have to voice against single minded pvp (taking wvw and pve with them) nerfs. If anything it’s time for random boosts to improve counterplay. Like against Celestial.

Celestial is great and make the game more focused in long team fights. Zerker just makes people force a 2v1 and burst the enemy too fast. The game is going in the right direction with celestial and making it be more about long fights and less just walking around killing people in a few seconds. The real problem with this game is builds like shatter mesmer.

Tbh, I think it’s the zerk comps that lack any kind of show value. It’s just about twitchy reactions and who presses the button first, with insta downs. Boooring.

Bruiser fights are a lot more exciting to watch, since then it’s the rotations, planning and overall strategy of a player becomes more important. Allowing to comebacks and other cool things.

@Isslair – In your opinion, what is the reasoning for GW2 not becoming an esport?

@Dudis – Tbh, I think celesital amulet is great for casual players. I think the playstyle it embodies really has no place in a competitive scene.

Conquest overhaul would be needed to bring excitement to viewers. Seeing a timer run out or a pointtick towards 500 isn’t the most exciting thing. Conquest also favors snowballing, etc.
The biggest thing to become an esport is a big (pvp) playerbase, which gw2 lacks.

Tbh op, I’m not sure this game should focus on esports.
Like most mmo’s it’s more fun to play than it is to watch. There are several reasons for this:
1) complexity of the action/ aoe spam/instant abilities and limited point of view makes it difficult to follow, even for a vet who knows what each proff is capable of.
2) There will always be best and worst builds so that highly competitive teams will start to be mirrors of each other and much of the action takes place when choosing you’re team comp.
Best route for Anet is to simply make the game fun and diverse; so if node capture favors certain comps and builds, then make a map that would help to even things out, Alterac Valley (before the nerfs and rush to kill lord) for example.
I know. I know WvWvW, but AV was more complex , which gy to I flip?, which tower to retake/ hold, do i fight in mid, which npc? Do I help to summon Ice Lord? Was a really epic BG before bots and nerfs. Isle of conquest was another interesting one.
By just making the pvp aspect fun and interesting I think Anet would be heading in the right direction.

@Dylan – You know what, I totally agree with that. Most, if not all MMOs have always struggled with balance. Lets just say the celestial meta isnt too fun.

DevilsGlare.7658:

@Isslair – In your opinion, what is the reasoning for GW2 not becoming an esport?

The reason is – masses prefer F2P MOBAs with casual 20 minutes creep farming. You should’ve abandoned this “esports” dream a long time ago.

This game can definitely go e-sports, we just need competent people managing this game much like what we have right now, but pushing way farther than they are.

Not like JSharp though.

What is esports though? It has money, it has viewers = esports, no?

Nerfing celestial will just put warriors on settlers and engi on rabid with balth runes which is even more passive than celestial . Ele’s might run staff cleric instead of D/D and auto attack spirit rangers will become viable . My point is there will always be some easy face tanking build that is effective at doing everything.

They should just focus on the balance itself instead of balancing around the difficulty of the meta builds.

Lots of good points by the OP here, but I don’t think that a nerf to celestial alone would fully address the issues. I mean, we’ve seen the same thing in the past with condition builds who are often able to play nearly as tanky as a bunker while throwing out tons of damage through condis.

DevilsGlare.7658:

@Dudis – Tbh, I think celesital amulet is great for casual players. I think the playstyle it embodies really has no place in a competitive scene.

Does not have place in competitive scene? A lot of the top players are running it. I think completely the opposite zerker should have no place in competitive scene.

This whole conversation reminds me of the saying about if you start listening to fans you will soon be sitting with them.

Isslair.4908:

DevilsGlare.7658:

@Isslair – In your opinion, what is the reasoning for GW2 not becoming an esport?

The reason is – masses prefer F2P MOBAs with casual 20 minutes creep farming. You should’ve abandoned this “esports” dream a long time ago.

Exactly. One of the reasons gw2 will never have as many players as lol and dota is because it is not f2p. Also who said our mmorpg should focus in becoming Esport in first place? And who made stupid correlation between esport and zerker stats?

Even talking about cele is boring

Celestial is OP
Every class can spec tanky, take sigil of battle and runes of strength and use a mixture of direct and condi damage.

just some are viable in TQ some are not.

But again, this game should not be balanced in dueling. so i guess it’s only ele engi are op.

unless anet introduce new game modes (most likely)

Don’t post too much about celestial or the thread is going to get locked.

Phaeton.9582:

Even talking about cele is boring

The talk about nerfing cele has been going on for months now. Devs, its not hard to shave a few percentages off cele and make small balance changes. Your not going to become esports by throwing money at literally nothing. Fix your game instead of giving the same players thousands of dollars every month.

Also bring back SoloQ.

-Teef Teef Teef Teef

Speaking as a lifelong software engineer, I’m wondering if the code is written in such a way that changing things is not easy without breaking something seemingly unrelated. Maybe the changes over the past two years since launch were not implemented robustly, and were slapped on incorrectly such that changing a value here meant you had to look at five other places…perhaps causing the issue I mentioned above.

And maybe that is why they do so little balancing.

dont post how gw2 is online and not LAN, things get closed