Guild Wars 2

The short version:

Skyhammer poll: 80% of 337 people want it out of soloqueue
Foefire poll: 93% of 133 people want it left in solo queue

Your community is sending you a very strong message: please take skyhammer out of soloqueue.

The boring version:

I love this game. To me the skills of the people who made this seem godlike.

However, it seems to me that the feedback of a large majority of the spvp community is not understood, or fully comprehended in some areas. I want to try and make that feedback clear on one particularly thorny issue- skyhammer in solo queue.

We have had at least two polls that I am aware of about what the community thinks about having skyhammer in solo queue. Here is one of them:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Poll-Should-Skyhammer-be-Removed/first

337 people voted with 80% asking that it be taken out of solo queue.

However, some people claim that the poll is not representative, or that it is just the “vocal minority”. For example, the argument goes something like:

“Self-selection is biased against the status quo. If you create a poll asking “Should we get rid of Skyhammer?”, the people most motivated to respond will be those who want to get rid of Skyhammer.
Those who are happy with the status quo have no real reason to answer the poll because they already have what they want.”

So I tested this theory by making a poll yesterday asking if Foefire should be removed from solo queue. The poll used the same terminology as the poll about Skyhammer, you can find it here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Should-Foefire-be-removed/first#post3589212

In that poll 93% of 133 people (atm) think Foefire should remain in solo queue, essentially debunking claims that people who are happy with the status quo don’t vote.

Taken together these polls show that a very large majority of the spvp community wants to have Skyhammer removed from soloqueue.

Note that this is not a case of some people hating it and some people loving it, as I believe some at ANET think, it is simply that most of your spvp players do not want to play it in solo queue.

My opinion

It may sound melodramatic, but imo unleashing Skyhammer in tournaments was like trying to drive a stake through the heart of your spvp community. It was bad enough that this map allowed a farming exploit on custom servers in hotjoin. I’m not sure the damage can be undone, but the ongoing damage can be stopped by simply taking the map out of the solo queue rotation.

Why did you do it?

One thing that baffles me is how this map actually even came to be.

From launch community feedback about spvp conquest has generally advocated bigger nodes, stopping the chance to be one shot, more allowance for counter play, a more diverse option for builds.

How did that feedback get distilled into creating the exact opposite of what the community has been asking for?

In perspective:

The skyhammer issue is a biggie, and most players would love to see something done about it, but GW2 still has a magic that I haven’t found in any other mmo in terms of spvp. The aim of this thread is to improve the game (because I think it’s great) not to whine or be unreasonable. I understand that an mmo is a huge beast and there are backlogs of issues that have to be prioritized. But not acting for months on an issue like this is hurting.

Ahha so THIS is why the other thread existed. Clever.

Edit: Looking back on your other thread though. I feel it would have been a bit fairer if you had made more of an attempt to justify your demand to remove the map.

i called you in other tread something like a guy trie to look smart but just look stupid

now i have to say you dont look so stupid anymore^^

good one

i doubt this experiment eliminates bias, even “happy with status quo” type, and there could be others.

for skyhammer, imo it is unpopular because it takes players out of their established comfort zones. i have to switch from pistol to rifle engi, swap into flamethrower (which i normally dont use) and play mostly oriented on cc and positioning. things like dps, hps, burst and sustain are diminished.

does above means map is good or bad? depends what criteria one uses. if criteria is: “by majority vote”, the immediate answer would probably be – it is a bad map. but then the same majority keeps communicating that it is “bored by conquest” (but also hates spirit and skyham, two maps where alt mechanics are significant), so question then is how rational is the player-base and is viable to build a game based on their vote and feedback. it cant be entirely ignored (who are you making this game for), but in some parts it should be. i dont even think that there would be a majority consensus that would make a viable game (all conquest or diverse modes? pvp or pve focus? integrated or separate pve/pvp? twitch or consistent skills? rng or pixilated spreadsheets?), but even if it was – it would not necessarily be a good game and the very same majority might end up hating it.

also – how about that 20% that loves the map? should not game cater to diverse playerbase by diverse modes? after all there are no two absolutely similar players, the only way to accommodate any community is offering diverse choice.

with that, imo WoW like rule, where one could disqualify two maps from pool, makes best sense. skyham diehards can keep meeting and blasting each other off the cannon platform, while the rest of the community will keep their rotation routine in Foefire.

Yasha.5963:

To me the skills of the people who made this seem godlike.

This is where I nearly snorted my tea, and instead opted for the short version.
Honestly though, why would you discredit your own thread like that at the very beginning (stop trying to score pts with the devs).

Besides, a merged Skyhammer thread with nigh 500 replies and over 5000 views was not graced by a dev comment, so what makes you think it’ll be any different this time.

so you are the one who asked if Foefire should be removed….

tell you what
I love Foefire
imo the best PvP map at the moment
Temple of the Silent Storm being 2nd best
I also love Skyhammer
for too many reasons
and the point is
the devs love it as well
they absolutely do
Skyhammer is not Raid on the Capricorn or some living story planned to stay for like 2 weeks
just look at the art visuals and music that all went into it
so much time and effort is invested that it is too late to go back
it is a map that is to encourage competitive play and active thinking
maybe more making more maps like Skyhammer or giving you templates and we can change the way you think
~~~~~~sigh

I guess that does stop you from hating it

I feel like an Imperial soldier telling Stormcloaks to calm down in Windhelm
or a priest of Dwanya trying to persuade Norns in Hoelbrak

Well, skihammer sure is a very good pve map.
#visuals&music

As far as I’m concerned, they can take all the time they need to make whatever changes they see fit. None will bring me or my play mates back anyway.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Yasha.5963:

To me the skills of the people who made this seem godlike.

This is where I nearly snorted my tea, and instead opted for the short version.
Honestly though, why would you discredit your own thread like that at the very beginning (stop trying to score pts with the devs).

Besides, a merged Skyhammer thread with nigh 500 replies and over 5000 views was not graced by a dev comment, so what makes you think it’ll be any different this time.

I try to make games in my spare time. Even trying to program a smooth third person camera is a huge challenge. The work that went into a game like this is almost unimaginably vast, and the skills needed on both a technical and artistic level to have pulled this off are so far away from my current talents as to appear godlike.

Bottom line: These devs are also people and I want them to know that the page long criticism is specific to a certain aspect of the game and is not meant to be a “bashing”. I would take the same approach to giving indepth and critical feedback to any person. Its not a matter of “scoring points”, it is just a matter of respect.

Add these two important factors to your bottom line:
1) They have been working on the game for roughly 5 years before it was finally released.
2) Unlike in your stand-alone scenario, they have entire teams assigned to particular tasks. Unfortunately, the main focus had always been on the pve side of the game.

I hope they remove skyhammer.

Trying to fix it instead, is a loss of time. We need pvp resources put into new game modes and not into the crap Skyhammer. The concept behind this map is bad, you cannot fix it.

Arenanet please, forget about this crap map. You made a mistake, it’s ok dont worry. But now move on.

Marcos.3690:

I hope they remove skyhammer.

Trying to fix it instead, is a loss of time. We need pvp resources put into new game modes and not into the crap Skyhammer. The concept behind this map is bad, you cannot fix it.

Arenanet please, forget about this crap map. You made a mistake, it’s ok dont worry. But now move on.

That remains to be seen. The prototypes of those new game modes looked hopeful~but not hopeful enough to disperse all the nightmares some of us dread. Remember how everything was so hyped up back in Q3 2012 and then~~~

~~~then it just happened. The collapse of the community. The economy recession. The departure of more than 100 PvP guilds/teams

Only time will tell if the legend of Guild Wars PvP can be reborn.

Skyhammer is only 1 map out of 5, and not everyone decides to pull people. Besides, many do know how to dodge…

What about people who keep losing to 3 hambow warriors and spirit rangers on main maps ?

Skyhammer is dogkitten, the map is desinged for classes with a lot of knockback cc and stealth pulls. Not only that but freaking skyhammer itself is undodgeable which makes heavy armor classes or classes who take no damage over a certain amount of time have a greater advantage over others. I could go on and say what else is wrong with this absurd map like laying down marks infront of the gateway to skyhammer, but really what’s the point. It’s been said countless times already how bad this map is in competitive play and the devs refuse to do something about it.

Reasons as to why skyhammer should be removed from solo q:

1. Its buggy. Sometimes when i go through the portal it doesnt work and i still get the debuff. Sometimes I dont die when i fall to the bottom. Shadow stepping over the panels doesnt work properly. Sometimes the jump pads dont work.

2. Skyhammer builds dont require much skill. Pulling someone from stealth is easy and its impossible to counter. In addition to this swapping builds is awkward. Many people have made new characters specifically for skyhammer.

3. There is no counter play if youre being targeted by the hammer. All you can do is pop your invulnerabilities or run away. In kyhlo you can at least dodge the trebuchet shots.

Ferik.3127:

The prototypes of those new game modes looked hopeful~

is there a link? when did new modes got previewed?

Please anet please please remove skyhammer for the love of god!

Nah keep skyhammer, always fun to toss some kiddies over the edge then they qq on forums

Or just anyone who plays solo queue knows that skyhammer is the most complained about map by the players in the map, their friends, their guildies, etc.

The hammer mechanic itself is so heavily favored for and against certain builds, and even without the hammer mechanic, you have things like thieves and mesmers using pulls while in stealth that are nearly uncounterable. There is SOME L2P aspect to it but at the end of the day it is just far too unbalanced, giving too much of an advantage to certain builds.

It often feels more like PvMap than PvPlayer.

add option to disable downstate in custom arena and i will come back

Best of all – Anet doesn’t care.

Just give up – there has been numerous skyhammer threads made in the past and none of the devs even respond to them. It’s like they are mad that we don’t like the map so they want you to keep playing it, just to stick it to you.

Amaterasu.6280:

It’s like they are mad that we don’t like the map so they want you to keep playing it, just to stick it to you.

Haha, I often feel the same way.

Its annoying even in hotjoin because all the maps default to skyhammer as a starting point which is a disincentive to start on a fresh server. It looks especially ugly after a patch reset because all the servers are skyhammer- makes me cringe inside.

Looking at the new Edge of the Mists that just came out, it’s clear that Anet loves skyhammer’s mechanics. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re developing skyhammer 2 as we speak.

Abazigal.3679:

Skyhammer is only 1 map out of 5, and not everyone decides to pull people. Besides, many do know how to dodge…

What about people who keep losing to 3 hambow warriors and spirit rangers on main maps ?

I do not know how to dodge the skyhammer cannon attack. Do teach me please. I also never lost to a team with 3 hambow warriors. Class stacking won’t help and warriors are not unkillable. In fact anything above 2 of any class is a waste imo.

Skyhammer is awesome. It requires a lot more than standard boring Foefire style mid point bunkering. It should be added in team arena as well together with Spirit Watch. That would increase the skill level of people in team arena because they would actually have to develop different tactics and builds.

Rezz.8019:

Skyhammer is awesome. It requires a lot more than standard boring Foefire style mid point bunkering. It should be added in team arena as well together with Spirit Watch. That would increase the skill level of people in team arena because they would actually have to develop different tactics and builds.

Can’t tell is serious or….

I think both skyhammer and spirit should be removed from solo q. So, why?

Spirit
Any map that has a mechanic where you cannot use your skills is not balanced. Certain classes have the edge here

Skyhammer
A poor map design. At the very least, make skyhammer dodgeable.

More worrisome though is that the three newest maps from ANET, spirit, skyhammer, and eotm are the three worst maps to date. It doesn’t give me a lot of comfort for the future.

We asked for more maps. They gave another map. Now people want the map removed. Maybe let’s think about this. It is one thing to ask. It is another to be given. It is something entirely else to throw it back.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

We asked for more maps. They gave another map. Now people want the map removed. Maybe let’s think about this. It is one thing to ask. It is another to be given. It is something entirely else to throw it back.

if i put a pile of feces in a box and give it to you as a present, would you take it?

also nobody asked for more maps. more maps were demanded in order for spvp not to lose the few players that are left.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

We asked for more maps. They gave another map. Now people want the map removed. Maybe let’s think about this. It is one thing to ask. It is another to be given. It is something entirely else to throw it back.

You had better put that thinking cap back on.

From launch community feedback about spvp conquest has generally advocated bigger nodes, limiting the chance to be one shot, more allowance for counter play, a more diverse option for builds.

What we got with skyhammer is the exact opposite.

I am also pretty sure that I saw no posts asking for new maps after spiritwatch, although there have been many posts ever since launch asking for new game modes.

Also note that the feedback is to remove the map from soloqueue not to remove the map.