Guild Wars 2

I have edited my original suggestion as it appears that a lot of people do care about having a PvP exclusive skin that “shows they’re skilled.”

However, I stand by my warning from ~1 year ago that reaching Legend rank requires merely abundant resources (whether that is time to grind hundreds of games with a ~40-50% WR, OR enough gold to buy a boost from better players—this is a very popular method that a lot of people have employed), in the absence of considerable skill.

—OP
This is a 100% constructive and thorough post on the state of PvP and what can be VERY EASILY done to fix it for everyone. As such, I will not reply to any trolls.

—body
As I was perusing some GW2 streams today, I found (as its not surprising) a young clicker playing some PvP. This is perfectly fine, there is nothing wrong with being a clicker if you simply want to be a casual.

However, the system currently in place convinces even casual players that they have what it takes to be competitive, as they have so easily reached division 4 (out of 6) by simply logging on and spamming a few games. Why is this bad?

This is bad for two main reasons:

• Unskilled players will all be funneled into low tier Ruby and find it “inescapable,” and will be further frustrated by the fact that no matter what they do, they may never see that shiny legendary they so desperately want.
• Certain somewhat “higher” skill players who are perhaps not skilled enough to carry 4 clickers, but certainly skilled enough to be in (a balanced system’s) division 4 (out of 6), will also be frustrated as their games will be almost entirely determined by the teammates they are assigned by the MM algo.

Divisions 1-3 were (presumably) designed so that (For lack of a better word) noobs don’t feel frustrated that they can’t win, and there’s a sense of a nurturing learning curve as losses don’t count against you.

In terms of someday obtaining a legendary, this isn’t a terribly bad system. But, in terms of playing with and against people of (or near) your own skill level, this is a horrendous system.

OK so, that’s what it is. What could be done to fix it??

—Step 0
The crux of the problem is caused by having a seemingly “obtainable for everyone” legendary at the end of a long grind (similar to the PvE model). However, this is something that could very easily go away.

PvP players don’t really care for the exclusivity of the skins available (save for the Glorious Hero set; it’s nice to see people that actually win tournaments get rewarded).

• ANet could just as well make the ascneded and legendary backpiece obtainable through PvE means, and PvP players (for the most part) wouldn’t care about this.

—Step 1
Ok, the people that care for that, now have an option at grinding their legendary another way. With that out of the way, we can easily restructure every Ranked Division to have pip and tier regression in events of a loss.
This is crucial to having a system that actually works for matching similarly skilled players together.

—Bonus Step
A bonus suggestion of mine, would be to:

• Start every player at the beginning of a season at something like mid Division 2 with hidden pips.
• Wins/Losses during your first 5 or 10 games count for 2-3 (maybe a little more) pips, depending on streaks.

This way, the system is less grindy at the start when you’re getting started, but you can still turn it into a grind at high Legend if you care to be on that Leaderboard.

—TL;DR

• Add pip and tier loss to all divisions.
• (bonus) Reward/deduct more pips for the first few “starter games,” at the beginning of every season.

Stop being reasonable. We don’t need your filthy logic here.

Also update GW2 drama more often. You’d probably contribute more to the PvP community by running a gossip tabloid than posting sensible ideas on the official forums.

Acandis.3250:

—Step 1
The crux of the problem is caused by having a seemingly “obtainable for everyone” legendary at the end of a long grind (similar to the PvE model). However, this is something that could very easily go away.

So it sounds like a problem of perceptions rather than reality. But you knew from the start that you needed to clear ten divisions to get the wings. The targets are less opaque than Ad Infinitum and also arguably not as hard as the Mai Trin clear so there’s no fair argument of precedent to make. Legendary weapons and legendary backpieces are different things.

Acandis.3250:

PvP players don’t really care for the exclusivity of the skins available (save for the Glorious Hero set; it’s nice to see people that actually win tournaments get rewarded).

• ANet could just as well make the ascneded and legendary backpiece obtainable through PvE means, and PvP players (for the most part) wouldn’t care about this.

ANet changing the requirements for an item after the fact does bother me, and leaving modes without unique long-term goals does as well.

Acandis.3250:

—Step 2
Ok, the people that care for that, now have an option at grinding their legendary another way. With that out of the way, we can easily restructure every Ranked Division to have pip and tier regression in events of a loss.
This is crucial to having a system that actually works for matching similarly skilled players together.

Why not have it anyway? I see no problem with having full pip loss for every division while also locking legendary progression behind it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the game having difficult goals for players and putting legendaries behind that goal.

Sarrs.4831:

Why not have it anyway? I see no problem with having full pip loss for every division while also locking legendary progression behind it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the game having difficult goals for players and putting legendaries behind that goal.

This is obviously the preferred method. I was merely suggesting a compromise.

I was doing great earlier but had a couple of blowout matches in the other teams’ favor. Both matches had the same DH and Scrapper so I might have to wait until they rank up. Given the fatalistic nature of the matchmaker I’ll receive teammates of a similar quality while my opponents remain that good until I can manage to queue into a different pool.

Why is team strength so different depending on when you queue?

Edit: my conditions removed from allies is only 5 in one of the pics, perhaps we lost due to me not using staff 4 enough and that one time staff 5 whiffed when trying to push rezzers? The skill has a mind of its own sometimes -_-

Legendary status icon should have never been something that can be achieved through a good old fashioned grind. This is the root of what gets people angry when they aren’t able to achieve it.

If legendary status icon was based on actual MMR, you’d have a lot less people being worried about achieving it and a lot more people accepting that they won’t reach that point.

Bring back top 1000 leaderboards:

• 1000 – 750 = ambers
• 750 – 500 = emeralds
• 500 – 250 = sapphires
• 250 – 150 = rubies
• 150 – 50 = diamonds
• 50 – 1 = legendaries

division drops or rises when you drop or rise within MMR leaderboards
division rewards are handed out when the season ends and placing is final
DO NOT reset MMR or division upon start of new season, pick up where it left off
= problems solved across the board

You must understand that the league system is designed to entice people who dont pvp It is not, IT IS NOT, a useful tool to differentiate skill levels.
The mercy-pip, and division locks, the league locks, all prevent this.

The league system as currently implemented is nothing but a series of carrots and sticks.

Ithilwen.1529:

Uhmm I just took 23 straight losses today. I’ve been here day in and day out trying to fulfill the rather high requirements for the legendary.

In truth, I’d never come and play against this system for “fun.” It’s set up to create long loss streaks and get me hammered into the ground repeatedly. How is that “fun?” I’m here for the legendary. Otherwise, I could play unranked and not deal with this craziness.

Now I have a trust issue with ANET as well, since it’s becoming clear that I may well not be able to win the wings, regardless of what I do.

I’m logging off sick and depressed after this session. The reality is that all this “competitive” style matchmaking is doing is alienating the majority of players.

This is why people should be able to fall out of sapphire.

Ithilwen.1529:

snip

This highlights precisely why there should be pip and tier regression in every division. With the added possibility of dropping down divisions after sufficiently long losing streaks.

League pip system is fine… everything you’re describing as “issues & fixes” is strictly a matchmaking problem so you’re fixing the wrong thing. It’ll essentially make the system perform even worse than before.

PvP Backpiece belongs in PvP.

Just remove league requirement from the backpiece. No need to spend time making a PvE quest. Then remove all pip safeguards and leagues would suck a lot less. But honestly, the balance and diversity in this game is also a massive problem with PvP and fixing leagues alone isn’t going to save it. They need to go through every single trait and every single skill of ever class and change numbers because it’s disturbing how much is unusable.

@Falselights, bad matchmaking is very much tied to the current pip system. Currently the system allows virtually anyone to make ruby for free (granted, the sapphire division makes it a bit more difficult for the truly challenged), which is why ruby matchmaking is so bonkers right now.

Just picture, someone who made it to ruby going 20-0 getting matched with 4 other players who all made it to ruby on a 40% WR. What do you think will happen? This is obviously a bit exaggerated but it is actually what is happening in matchmaking precisely because of this pip system.

Acandis.3250:

@Falselights, bad matchmaking is very much tied to the current pip system. Currently the system allows virtually anyone to make ruby for free (granted, the sapphire division makes it a bit more difficult for the truly challenged), which is why ruby matchmaking is so bonkers right now.

Just picture, someone who made it to ruby going 20-0 getting matched with 4 other players who all made it to ruby on a 40% WR. What do you think will happen? This is obviously a bit exaggerated but it is actually what is happening in matchmaking precisely because of this pip system.

this

@Acandis Let’s keep the back piece PvP only since it was design for us but lets remove the division cross achievement which will allow anyone to get it from any division.

LordKage.9135:

@Acandis Let’s keep the back piece PvP only since it was design for us but lets remove the division cross achievement which will allow anyone to get it from any division.

Upon further thought, I don’t see the point in doing this (or even doing away with PvP exclusive acquisition of the backpiece).

Reason being: playing a few seasons and merely getting Ruby should get people enough tickets to purchase all 4 vendor backpieces in order to obtain the ascended tiered piece.

This is certainly a good enough alternative for those looking to PvE/WvW with a decent stat backpiece, in the absence of having to grind for other alternatives.

It is, indeed, nice to have a shiny backpiece at the end of a “Legendary” journey, to have certain bragging rights over other players.

Though, I must reiterate my opinion of the pip system, once more.
The current method of getting to Legend rank is a total joke and I hope it is revamped in the future to come, so that it may actually hold some prestige linked to a semblance of skill.

At the beginning of leagues they gave average MMR to knew players,that was the beginning of the end of PVP !GG GJ to the guy who got that IDEA!
As some1 who played exclusively PVP for 3 years,my first game of First season started like this,4 guys went to cap home point,i was stunned with that sight!That was road of almost 30 lost games in row,i managed to fight my way to 1 pip to Diamond when i got burn out and decided not to play anymore!

Haven’t you said you were quitting this game like 5 times now? What are you still doing here?

Simple fix, remove division crossing achievement. Up the days played, kills and wins with class, wins in a day, points and overall wins achievements. I will bet a lot of the QQ threads would disappear. As talking to friends guild members and randoms in HoTM, people really stress about this one. If I only get to ruby this season, I have to get to ruby next as well, I didn’t play much during season 1 and only got Hal way through emerald. If I had know how much of a pain this one achievement would be, I would have played alot more. Once I have my back item I can’t see me really trying for the next. I’m not going to stress my self out for a year trying to get enough crossings for the next item.

Acandis.3250:

• Add pip and tier loss to all divisions.
• (bonus) Reward/deduct more pips for the first few “starter games,” at the beginning of every season.

I think it needs a more radical change:

Rewards

I suggest to change the league reward system, so it doesnt actually give you rewards for reaching a certain point, but instead it advance a secondary reward track by match played, but making it unalterable by boosters or festival buffs.

This reward tracks will be repetible indefinitly.

Of course to give incentives for advancing division, prize and encourage learning to play well, plus the extra effort of concentration necesary for it, make the reward track change from division to division.

Aditionally to reinforce rewards in short term give additional rewards for match, based in the pips you have actually acumulated (counting all divisions).

The match reward will correspod for the divison and pips you have when you entered the match. The reward track will upgrade inmediatly if you go up and will mantain remporaly if you go down in a division (this its the achiles talion, feedback please).

Aditionally, taking in account the difference in qque times between divisions, make the reward track either been shorter or filling faster the higher your division is.

Also league reward tracks, that run at the same time that the normal reward tracks, will operate in a lose and win system where wins will have only a doble value (not less or more than wins), this will be because the less extra value, the cost of throwing a match becomes less; and because if its bigger, players can be encourage to propously drop pips to get a more confortable place ina division where they can then farm wins, this way the cost of dropping equals the wins.

Example:

Amber:
1000 reward points needed: 20 per win, 10 per lose.
Rewards: 5 tickets , 20 miss essences, 3 transmutation chaqrges , 2 unidentificated dye, 2g.

Emerald:
500 rewards points needed: 20 per win, 10 per lose
Rewards: 10 tickets , 40 miss essences, 6 transmutation chaqrges , 4 unidentificated dye, 4g.

Benefits:

- Like the actual system, all guys can have its legendary, but the better the player, the faster he will get it.

- Players have incentives to play the matches even if they completed the legendary or when they get to they apropiated place.

- Rewards arent tied to reach a certain division, but to perform on it, so no race and not nerve collapses for the ones trying to get the rewards. As such, divisions dont need to be grind based or a mix between grind and skill based, they can be skill based completly.

Leagues

Make leagues skill based mimplementing this 3 points:

1: Divisions, ranges and pips doesnt reset between season, when a new season start you have the same position you have the last league.

Explanation: Right now the system has several problems, even if the actual match making can allow pplayers to eventually get to their rightfull place, the speed depends too much of luck and the form the match making works.

This isnt necesary bad, the problem itself its that it takes time and that the process restart again, if we want good matches for every posible skill level, that means that we cant start over and over again a process that not necesarily has finished at the end of the season.

Making divisions, range and pips stay form season to season, garanties not only that the process gets to its equilibrium, but that it will allow to see clearly the good or bad functionality of the match maker, because it will have more time to make players get to their suposed places, that its the biggest distortion it has (suposely no more 500-10, super losing streaks and other cases that are not fun for the players).

2: In all divisions players can lost ranks and pips.
3: From emerald to legendary all players can drop from a division.

This last two points are necesaries from point one, since if not, all players will eventually get to legendary.

An additional point its that former division “x” players that went down, cant logically blame the match making, in fact they have less excuses to blame the system.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Simple fix, remove division crossing achievement. Up the days played, kills and wins with class, wins in a day, points and overall wins achievements. I will bet a lot of the QQ threads would disappear. As talking to friends guild members and randoms in HoTM, people really stress about this one. If I only get to ruby this season, I have to get to ruby next as well, I didn’t play much during season 1 and only got Hal way through emerald. If I had know how much of a pain this one achievement would be, I would have played alot more. Once I have my back item I can’t see me really trying for the next. I’m not going to stress my self out for a year trying to get enough crossings for the next item.

This assumes that new people won’t start QQing after you change the requirements. They will, just instead of being “omg i can’t push divisions!” it’ll be “omg the requirements are too high!”, or it’ll be the other side of the aisle going “omg all these nubs have muh wings!”

Sarrs.4831:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Simple fix, remove division crossing achievement. Up the days played, kills and wins with class, wins in a day, points and overall wins achievements. I will bet a lot of the QQ threads would disappear. As talking to friends guild members and randoms in HoTM, people really stress about this one. If I only get to ruby this season, I have to get to ruby next as well, I didn’t play much during season 1 and only got Hal way through emerald. If I had know how much of a pain this one achievement would be, I would have played alot more. Once I have my back item I can’t see me really trying for the next. I’m not going to stress my self out for a year trying to get enough crossings for the next item.

This assumes that new people won’t start QQing after you change the requirements. They will, just instead of being “omg i can’t push divisions!” it’ll be “omg the requirements are too high!”, or it’ll be the other side of the aisle going “omg all these nubs have muh wings!”

Not really, the better players have the wings already. ANet made the mistake of saying the wings ae for everyone. Winning games and getting kills are not hard to get, but they are time consuming. We still have the time gate of the games a day to keep people playing.

Lucius.2140:

—snip—

I don’t quite see the point in making such a radical change. The current pip system would be perfectly fine if simply there was regression at every tier & division.

As for the wings, obviously the change can’t be implemented mid year, as there would be a lot of people upset about it.

What could be done, is implement pip regression for next year, so that whatever reward lies in wait at the end of the long grind actually reflects some PvP skill.

Now, that being said, a huge issue with the current system is that there is no sense of accomplishment for reaching any division until you get The Ascension.

This means that, although someone may have started going 0-40 in Amber division and actually struggled to get to Emerald (but eventually makes it there), has nothing to show for it. In a way, this system is saying: the only reason you should do PvP is to get the Legendary backpiece, no other division accomplishment matters.

And don’t try to tell me divisions already have their own rewards via the vendor backpieces, because those things are ugly and nobody would ever be caught dead wearing them.

People push “meta” stuff too much, one thing that should be done is removing class stacking, it hurts diversity so much, see Overwatch for example, people have enough of fighting 2 McRee every match and it also doesn’t make any sense.

Also the level of skill in this game system is laughably bad, I might make a video of my 4 years old nephew playing an Ele or Warrior and see him winning most of the time because of how little effort you need with the “meta”.

The goal of any game mode is: “to be fun to play”. GW2 spvp is fun to play with the unranked algorithm but it becomes unfun to play when executed with the ranked algorithm which encourages segregation between the players, based on judgements of another’s skill or division icon, which is based on a system with a severely inaccurate gauge of actual player skill, which is 33% based on actual skill, 33% based on how many matches a player can grind by the end of a given season and 33% dumb luck concerning who you get teamed with and what classes they are playing at the time vs. the comp you are against.

So we can see, that the reason why far fewer people are playing now than ever before, is because the league pip system is a reward track not an accurate gauge of player skill. What we need for ranked is an accurate gauge of player skill and a better match making algorithm which identifies bad comps and good comps and is able to toggle placements accordingly. “No reason ever to have 3 thieves on the same team vs. a team of 3 DHs, as an example of what I mean by this”.

Amineo.8951:

People push “meta” stuff too much, one thing that should be done is removing class stacking, it hurts diversity so much, see Overwatch for example, people have enough of fighting 2 McRee every match and it also doesn’t make any sense.

Also the level of skill in this game system is laughably bad, I might make a video of my 4 years old nephew playing an Ele or Warrior and see him winning most of the time because of how little effort you need with the “meta”.

This is far too unrealistic an expectation to ever be realized.

Besides, you have to realize that the meta game is defined by what is good in the competitive scene where highly coordinated teams can pull off certain things that 5 randoms wouldn’t be able to.

Even if you were to enforce a “meta” comp in every game, it wouldn’t change the fact that if you get matched vs a better group, chances are they can run 5 thieves and still win the game.

The core of the issues stem from having too many unprepared people being funneled into a higher division than where they should be placed. Thus you see people with enormous loss steaks which end up blaming teammates or comp.

Trust me, in Yolo Queue, comp is the least of the deciding factors of a match’s outcome.