Guild Wars 2

I feel like it is easier to balance the elementalist to the other classes than bring them down to our level. So I don’t see the fine devs at Arenanet balancing team putting in the effort to do that.

silvermember.8941:

I feel like it is easier to balance the elementalist to the other classes than bring them down to our level. So I don’t see the fine devs at Arenanet balancing team putting in the effort to do that.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Elementalist-Ranger-Engi-easier-to-play/first#post2868449

Elementalist needs builds that require 1 or 2 attunments only and lock out the other two from use.

Exactly.

Not necessarily in terms of how hard to play the classes should be, but there just needs to be more thought required, and risk/reward in attacks like Ele.

silvermember.8941:

I feel like it is easier to balance the elementalist to the other classes than bring them down to our level. So I don’t see the fine devs at Arenanet balancing team putting in the effort to do that.

It’s not about buffing Ele or nerfing the rest of the classes, it’s about changing the game to be less spammy and thoughtless and a little slower/strategic and require brain power to actually kill people.

You can literally just spam auto attacks and kill people, depending on the class/weapon.

Ele can’t do that, outside of maybe Lightning Whip but even then they’re way too squishy to sit there and just do that.

Right, I don’t want this thread to get into a discussion about some classes being OP or UP or whatever. There’s plenty of those threads already. I’m talking about tuning the way some classes deal damage, so that the damages comes more from longer CD burst attacks rather than spammable passive ones. This would require buffing some parts of warriors/necros/thieves/whatever, but it would also require nerfing other parts of those classes.

I don’t think this change would require any sort of drastic, technical overhaul. Simply adjusting damage numbers + cooldowns on a lot of skills would go a long way towards making the game less spammy.

ResJudicator.7916:

Right, I don’t want this thread to get into a discussion about some classes being OP or UP or whatever. There’s plenty of those threads already. I’m talking about tuning the way some classes deal damage, so that the damages comes more from longer CD burst attacks rather than spammable passive ones. This would require buffing some parts of warriors/necros/thieves/whatever, but it would also require nerfing other parts of those classes.

I don’t think this change would require any sort of drastic, technical overhaul. Simply adjusting damage numbers + cooldowns on a lot of skills would go a long way towards making the game less spammy.

Yup, and even better they can do it slowly each patch just to get it to a nice spot.

Less dmg on auto slightly, buff the heavy hitters and make them slower and telegraphed, repeat, maybe some slight redesigns here and there but mostly just numbers.

So the basic argument you’re making is that autoattacks and skills with short cooldowns should generally do less damage and players should be forced to make more intelligent use of their longer cooldowns to achieve high damage.

I see the merit in this argument but it also concerns me that this would move the game in a direction of greater burst and could significantly devalue more defensive builds. After all, if the key to staying alive is seeing your enemy’s telegraphed burst combo and avoiding it outright, what’s the value of defensive stats like toughness or healing power? Could this potentially lead to a situation where everyone wears berserker gear and just goes for all-in alpha strike builds?

I remember posts some months ago where people asked to balance the game around Warrior.
Funny that the arguments are quite similiar o.0

Cero.5132:

I remember posts some months ago where people asked to balance the game around Warrior.
Funny that the arguments are quite similiar o.0

Its not funny at all.People want the game to be balanced around the weakest class so that we avoid powercreep ..But no anet cant do that they ll rather buff everything to god.
Honeslty they should just tone everything down by alot..Like EVERYTHING
It cant be too much work seeing how they freaking raised everything..damage,sustain all are out of control and completely out of balance compared to a few months ago

Cero.5132:

I remember posts some months ago where people asked to balance the game around Warrior.
Funny that the arguments are quite similiar o.0

so everyone runs around with AoE-stuns + knockdowns and stands around like a kitten because he’s in CC 95% of the time?

I actually like OP’s idea. Anet also said that they follow the principle of “high risk – high reward”. The problem is that some classes don’t fit into that. You already mentioned the problematic classes. Thieves do just as much dmg with their autohit as they do with their other spells. Necros spam conditions without even knowing what they’re doing. And warrios keep facerolling through their CDs and have nothing to fear because they can’t do anything wrong.

Ele is also a class where you’re only rewarded when you play good. This should apply to all classes.

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP.

PvP combat in GW2 is comparatively shallow and doesn’t have much counter-play to it.

I know people ask for dueling a lot, but let’s be honest, dueling in GW2 is a pretty sad experience. Much of the outcome is dictated by your class and build rather than your personal skill.

In contrast I do have very fond memories from dueling in WoW. Warrior vs. Frost-Mage was one of my personal highlights. It had abilities countering each other, skill-baiting, fake-casting etc. Everything that makes a good duel.

GW2 doesn’t have that and won’t ever have it to the same extent given the game-design. But Elementalists are closer than most and their class design should serve as a template for others.

Stice.5204:

So the basic argument you’re making is that autoattacks and skills with short cooldowns should generally do less damage and players should be forced to make more intelligent use of their longer cooldowns to achieve high damage.

I see the merit in this argument but it also concerns me that this would move the game in a direction of greater burst and could significantly devalue more defensive builds. After all, if the key to staying alive is seeing your enemy’s telegraphed burst combo and avoiding it outright, what’s the value of defensive stats like toughness or healing power? Could this potentially lead to a situation where everyone wears berserker gear and just goes for all-in alpha strike builds?

I think you make a great point, which is that toughness/healing power become less important if burst is largely avoidable. But I think you would still want toughness/healing power in teamfights to survive focused autoattacks from more than one person (i.e. anytime you get focused by the enemy team).

Furthermore, even outide of teamfights, toughness/healing power will help you in two ways. First and most obvious, having more toughness/hp gives you more room for error — no one plays perfectly, and sometime you get surprise bursted from someone who wasn’t in your field of view. Second, having more toughness/hp also gives you more flexibility in landing your burst. For example, imagine you are at half HP and the warrior you’re fighting is at 20% hp. You see that the warrior is about to eviscerate you. If you have high enough toughness to survive the eviscerate, you can land your burst while the warrior is doing the eviscerate leap. You’ll eat the eviscerate but live, while the warrior will die. On the other hand, if you specced full glass, you would have to dodge the eviscerate and then burst, but at that point the warrior might also be able to avoid your burst. Similarly, some burst skills (such as churning earth) have a long channeling time during which you’re vulnerable. Having high toughness increases your ability to land those skills.

I guess the TLDR is that toughness/hp would still be an important stat for bunkers who fend off multiple players, and it would also give players more flexibility in 1v1s about when to time their attacks.

so you want insta burst from air/arcanes to be the benchmark for all professions ?

No thanks.

Stice.5204:

So the basic argument you’re making is that autoattacks and skills with short cooldowns should generally do less damage and players should be forced to make more intelligent use of their longer cooldowns to achieve high damage.

I see the merit in this argument but it also concerns me that this would move the game in a direction of greater burst and could significantly devalue more defensive builds. After all, if the key to staying alive is seeing your enemy’s telegraphed burst combo and avoiding it outright, what’s the value of defensive stats like toughness or healing power? Could this potentially lead to a situation where everyone wears berserker gear and just goes for all-in alpha strike builds?

Well that’s how it is in PvE at the moment, they need to find a balance not swing the pendulum from one direction to the complete opposite.

Cero.5132:

I remember posts some months ago where people asked to balance the game around Warrior.
Funny that the arguments are quite similiar o.0

That’s because Warrior, just like Ele is the only other class, like Ele, that have these high risk/high reward attacks that are well telegraphed, and need to be combo’d.

Mrbig.8019:

so you want insta burst from air/arcanes to be the benchmark for all professions ?

No thanks.

coming from a guy that primarily plays a thief or talks about the thief or used when i cared to bother.

What you said is sooooooooooooooooo funnnnnny.

Knote.2904:

Exactly.

Not necessarily in terms of how hard to play the classes should be, but there just needs to be more thought required, and risk/reward in attacks like Ele.

silvermember.8941:

I feel like it is easier to balance the elementalist to the other classes than bring them down to our level. So I don’t see the fine devs at Arenanet balancing team putting in the effort to do that.

It’s not about buffing Ele or nerfing the rest of the classes, it’s about changing the game to be less spammy and thoughtless and a little slower/strategic and require brain power to actually kill people.

You can literally just spam auto attacks and kill people, depending on the class/weapon.

Ele can’t do that, outside of maybe Lightning Whip but even then they’re way too squishy to sit there and just do that.

I dont disagree with what you said and the basic concept of, it is something similar I have QQ about in the past.

But it doesn’t change the fact that they are not going to bring the game down to our level, I honestly don’t see them doing that.

Mrbig.8019:

so you want insta burst from air/arcanes to be the benchmark for all professions ?

No thanks.

You must have problems with reading posts.

Fresh Air burst is actually a good example of Anet taking a step backwards of where they should be going.

Instant untelegraphed burst that has NO counter like that is a terrible idea.

silvermember.8941:

Mrbig.8019:

so you want insta burst from air/arcanes to be the benchmark for all professions ?

No thanks.

coming from a guy that primarily plays a thief or talks about the thief or used when i cared to bother.

What you said is sooooooooooooooooo funnnnnny.

What are you finding so funny , pls tell me.

Ele is the only profession having a totally INSTANT burst, with no animations involved.

If ele sustained damage is low than fix it, we don’t need anymore instant bursts.

The only instant, damagin, skill the thief has is Steal when traited with Mug, that used to deal 4-5k in a full burst build.

Now it doesn’t crit anymore, 2k AT MAX.

Ele deals 2k by simply swapping to air, another 2k+ by using Lightning strike, both instant, both on extremely low CD ( both 5 secs with Fresh air).

This without accounting Arcane wave/blast. Both instant.

This isn’t exactly what i would call " skills with possible counterplay".

In a thread talking about " visible burst with clear animation", the ele has no place, unless you talk ONLY about Fire burst.

In that case, i agree.

Knote.2904:

Mrbig.8019:

so you want insta burst from air/arcanes to be the benchmark for all professions ?

No thanks.

You must have problems with reading posts.

Fresh Air burst is actually a good example of Anet taking a step backwards of where they should be going.

Instant untelegraphed burst that has NO counter like that is a terrible idea.

That’s exactly what i’m saying.

Sadly OP says “ele is a good benchmark for all professions” and says" Air burst deals damage but not enough to kill people (WTF DID I JUST READ, like if insta oneshots could be considered balanced LOOOOL).

So i can’t agree with OP.

Unless we talk about fire burst.

S/D insta burst should have some kind of counterplay involved, you could start with some added icon saying ‘fresh air is ready’. Then you could benchmark as much as you want :V

Mrbig.8019:

silvermember.8941:

Mrbig.8019:

so you want insta burst from air/arcanes to be the benchmark for all professions ?

No thanks.

coming from a guy that primarily plays a thief or talks about the thief or used when i cared to bother.

What you said is sooooooooooooooooo funnnnnny.

What are you finding so funny , pls tell me.

Ele is the only profession having a totally INSTANT burst, with no animations involved.

If ele sustained damage is low than fix it, we don’t need anymore instant bursts.

The only instant, damagin, skill the thief has is Steal when traited with Mug, that used to deal 4-5k in a full burst build.

Now it doesn’t crit anymore, 2k AT MAX.

Ele deals 2k by simply swapping to air, another 2k+ by using Lightning strike, both instant, both on extremely low CD ( both 5 secs with Fresh air).

This without accounting Arcane wave/blast. Both instant.

This isn’t exactly what i would call " skills with possible counterplay".

In a thread talking about " visible burst with clear animation", the ele has no place, unless you talk ONLY about Fire burst.

In that case, i agree.

I will be the first to admit the fresh air burst is cheap and bad for the game. And I actually agree with the concept the OP was saying that the game should be brought down to the level of the elementalist BUT the staff should be used as the vehicle for that change. IT is obvious, slow, gives time for the player to react to it.

Air fresh build (which I hate cuz its cheap) exist because we have no other viable alternative, if we did that would be nice and I will go as far as to say that Arenanet should have actually fixed the problems instead of giving us a cheap band aid (air fresh)

tl;dr
Fresh air suck, still doesn’t change the fact that the thief is spammy though.

lol you joking? Staff being the benchmark? I can go full glass canon with it and i still cant down players with a brain and 1-2 defence skills.. Your idea of balance is that where nobody dies cause we auto for 500 in full power every 2 sec?
Also fresh air is a trait that lets you recharge air attunement.I dont see anything about instant bursts on the tooltip.Do you?
I d hope you leave alone the only trait making the class interesting after a whole year pls

Also some interesting numbers.Air auto on scepter is hitting for <100 the first hits for a total of around 3k-3,4k average on light dummies (glass build with all multipliers and fury except bolt in the heart and no boons) over 4 sec with the after cast.
Do you have an idea how low of an autoattack damage that is?? What is the difference of you eating the damage through lighting strikes every 5 sec or if you eat the damage through a proper good comparamble to other classes ranged auto that you still cant counter?? Pls explain that to me? Cause that mesmers gs is not instant but i still go down by the pressure it puts..or even the dagger lighting whip that in 2 hits it outdamages firegrab!!

This sounds like the exact same posts people made made about warrior 4 months ago.

Avead.5760:

lol you joking? Staff being the benchmark? I can go full glass canon with it and i still cant down players with a brain and 1-2 defence skills.. Your idea of balance is that where nobody dies cause we auto for 500 in full power every 2 sec?
Also fresh air is a trait that lets you recharge air attunement.I dont see anything about instant bursts on the tooltip.Do you?
I d hope you leave alone the only trait making the class interesting after a whole year pls

Also some interesting numbers.Air auto on scepter is hitting for <100 the first hits for a total of around 3k-3,4k average on light dummies (glass build with all multipliers and fury except bolt in the heart and no boons) over 4 sec with the after cast.
Do you have an idea how low of an autoattack damage that is?? What is the difference of you eating the damage through lighting strikes every 5 sec or if you eat the damage through a proper good comparamble to other classes ranged auto that you still cant counter?? Pls explain that to me? Cause that mesmers gs is not instant but i still go down by the pressure it puts..or even the dagger lighting whip that in 2 hits it outdamages firegrab!!

Here we go, there was a reason why people used to run D/D sometime ago.

The point is that as soon as you try to build glass, traits start to make no sense ( electric discharge for example, simply due to best damage being in fire LIKE IT SHOULD), damage is hard to land when compared to S/D and is not even THAT higher, especially fire ( dragon’s tooth+ phoenix damage is RIDICOLOUS).

Imho scepter should be the bunker weapon and Dagger the damage weapon, the point is that D/D damage is TOO HARD to land, and not rewarding enough.

Imho they should rearrange tons of ele skills between sets like they did in beta, and scepter burst should disappear totally, it’s bad for the game.

( dagger should have more mobility, more gap closers and stronger damage dealers both in fire and air, and rearrange scepter skills in order to be more bunkerish; staff skills should have faster casting-aftercasts and the set overall needs more defense, not only BUFF HEALZ.)

Imho they should give eles more builds to play with, but it’s currently impossible when it’s all put into scepter while dagger MH, altough having good sustained, it’s so easy to kite it’s not even fun, especially in a condi meta where people keep on spamming from range.

Mrbig.8019:

Here we go, there was a reason why people used to run D/D sometime ago.

The point is that as soon as you try to build glass, traits start to make no sense ( electric discharge for example, simply due to best damage being in fire LIKE IT SHOULD), damage is hard to land when compared to S/D and is not even THAT higher, especially fire ( dragon’s tooth+ phoenix damage is RIDICOLOUS).

Imho scepter should be the bunker weapon and Dagger the damage weapon, the point is that D/D damage is TOO HARD to land, and not rewarding enough.

Imho they should rearrange tons of ele skills between sets like they did in beta, and scepter burst should disappear totally, it’s bad for the game.

( dagger should have more mobility, more gap closers and stronger damage dealers both in fire and air, and rearrange scepter skills in order to be more bunkerish; staff skills should have faster casting-aftercasts and the set overall needs more defense, not only BUFF HEALZ.)

Imho they should give eles more builds to play with, but it’s currently impossible when it’s all put into scepter while dagger MH, altough having good sustained, it’s so easy to kite it’s not even fun, especially in a condi meta where people keep on spamming from range.

Dude you are wrong when you say scepters damage is easier to land than d/d.
D/d burst has always been better in the sense that its more controllable,you have more ways to set it up and has lower cd.Thats why between ele duels d/d always will win. Also d/d has WAY more sustain damage.Like way way way way more sustain.Phoenix might hit for like 7k if you aim it properly(mind you we talk about glass builds against squishes) but it has 20 sec cd and autos are way stronger in d/
The matter is simple.
1)Scepters sustain damage is crap and phoenix is hard to land with no cc / blink combo, has big cd and dragons tooth ios impossible to land with no help or blowing cooldowns —>you cant trust them in unless unless its for downed damages or you can back them with something which enemies can also blow immun..so they simply cant make up like 80% of your damage or even more which they would if air spells didnt exist
2)Fresh air is an amazing trait in the sense that it enables eles move a bit away of the spammy nature and play more intelligently.Since air is up most of the time you can do many more combos and use air skills at the right time.
If you touch the 1 (nerf air and arcanes damage ) then s/d ele wont be able to kill in full gc build while still drop like a fly
If you touch the 2 then you just take away my fun and you ll have to do with me :P

Also d/ds best damage isnt in solely fire..go look air auto :P
Plus it being non viable is a survivability issue.I still have no problem keeping up with other classes and never felt that there arent enough ways to reach target.D/d can stick to someone and lock them down for a long time..Problem is you cant survive the spam anymore ..

Using scepter air as an example is simply terrible.
The reason people used warriors as a good example of what to balance as, way back when, was because their attacks were telegraphed and you could fight intelligently instead of spaming aoe and dodges. I wouldn’t use them as a rolemodel now.

Churning earth would be a better example than scepter. With enough condition duration, you can even hit that thing 1 vs 1 very reliably, but it still lets the victim escape if they cleanse signet of earth’s immobilize.
Scepter air deals about the same damage, but has NO telegraph. It does not let someone preemptively predict and counter it. Simply terrible.

Churning earth→huge aoe, massive long lasting bleed stacks ,cripple for its duration,blast finisher ..can you realy compare it to lighting strike??
Also isnt churning earth the spell that you never cast in 1vs1 and that in teamfights it mostly turns against you both in dps output and making you too vulnerable?
And who runs signet of earth ??
Why cant there be a medium of these too..Why people say things like ce or staff attacks should be how damage is being dealt?I wouldnt want to play that game,too slow plus cant work with the amounts of damage mitigation options every class has.
I wanna see you dueling that s/d thief without air burst..I really do

Elementalist needs to have traits that focus on 1-2 attunements, and less x/x/x/x/30

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Stealth-fix-for-Arcane-utils/first

Avead.5760:

Mrbig.8019:

Here we go, there was a reason why people used to run D/D sometime ago.

The point is that as soon as you try to build glass, traits start to make no sense ( electric discharge for example, simply due to best damage being in fire LIKE IT SHOULD), damage is hard to land when compared to S/D and is not even THAT higher, especially fire ( dragon’s tooth+ phoenix damage is RIDICOLOUS).

Imho scepter should be the bunker weapon and Dagger the damage weapon, the point is that D/D damage is TOO HARD to land, and not rewarding enough.

Imho they should rearrange tons of ele skills between sets like they did in beta, and scepter burst should disappear totally, it’s bad for the game.

( dagger should have more mobility, more gap closers and stronger damage dealers both in fire and air, and rearrange scepter skills in order to be more bunkerish; staff skills should have faster casting-aftercasts and the set overall needs more defense, not only BUFF HEALZ.)

Imho they should give eles more builds to play with, but it’s currently impossible when it’s all put into scepter while dagger MH, altough having good sustained, it’s so easy to kite it’s not even fun, especially in a condi meta where people keep on spamming from range.

Dude you are wrong when you say scepters damage is easier to land than d/d.
D/d burst has always been better in the sense that its more controllable,you have more ways to set it up and has lower cd.Thats why between ele duels d/d always will win. Also d/d has WAY more sustain damage.Like way way way way more sustain.Phoenix might hit for like 7k if you aim it properly(mind you we talk about glass builds against squishes) but it has 20 sec cd and autos are way stronger in d/
The matter is simple.
1)Scepters sustain damage is crap and phoenix is hard to land with no cc / blink combo, has big cd and dragons tooth ios impossible to land with no help or blowing cooldowns —>you cant trust them in unless unless its for downed damages or you can back them with something which enemies can also blow immun..so they simply cant make up like 80% of your damage or even more which they would if air spells didnt exist
2)Fresh air is an amazing trait in the sense that it enables eles move a bit away of the spammy nature and play more intelligently.Since air is up most of the time you can do many more combos and use air skills at the right time.
If you touch the 1 (nerf air and arcanes damage ) then s/d ele wont be able to kill in full gc build while still drop like a fly
If you touch the 2 then you just take away my fun and you ll have to do with me :P

Insta 900 range burst says the opposite.

S/D damage is in air, not in fire.

Fire damage is for team fights, for downed bodies, for when you land your CCs.

To land D/D damage you need to be in your opponent’s kitten in order to do damage.

Lightning whip damage angle is pitiful, you need to be inside your opponent hoping he won’t move ( and anyway, dragon’s claws hit even harder if all of 3 land and crit).

S/D offers more reliability, range and tons of blinds ( also for the stomp), something D/D can do only by having evasive arcana and switching to air.

I mean, wut.

It really seems eles don’t even know their class sometimes.

If you think you can land D/D damage, i would really like to see how you fare against a necro at 900 range which will perma fear you as soon as you get around 200 range.

There’s a reason why S/D is better than D/D, and it’s RANGE, and the capability to burst hard even from 900 ( arcane blast+ air burst by themself deal a good 7-8k damage on squishies, about 5-6 k damage on necros/engies).

Mrbig.8019:

Avead.5760:

Mrbig.8019:

Here we go, there was a reason why people used to run D/D sometime ago.

The point is that as soon as you try to build glass, traits start to make no sense ( electric discharge for example, simply due to best damage being in fire LIKE IT SHOULD), damage is hard to land when compared to S/D and is not even THAT higher, especially fire ( dragon’s tooth+ phoenix damage is RIDICOLOUS).

Imho scepter should be the bunker weapon and Dagger the damage weapon, the point is that D/D damage is TOO HARD to land, and not rewarding enough.

Imho they should rearrange tons of ele skills between sets like they did in beta, and scepter burst should disappear totally, it’s bad for the game.

( dagger should have more mobility, more gap closers and stronger damage dealers both in fire and air, and rearrange scepter skills in order to be more bunkerish; staff skills should have faster casting-aftercasts and the set overall needs more defense, not only BUFF HEALZ.)

Imho they should give eles more builds to play with, but it’s currently impossible when it’s all put into scepter while dagger MH, altough having good sustained, it’s so easy to kite it’s not even fun, especially in a condi meta where people keep on spamming from range.

Dude you are wrong when you say scepters damage is easier to land than d/d.
D/d burst has always been better in the sense that its more controllable,you have more ways to set it up and has lower cd.Thats why between ele duels d/d always will win. Also d/d has WAY more sustain damage.Like way way way way more sustain.Phoenix might hit for like 7k if you aim it properly(mind you we talk about glass builds against squishes) but it has 20 sec cd and autos are way stronger in d/
The matter is simple.
1)Scepters sustain damage is crap and phoenix is hard to land with no cc / blink combo, has big cd and dragons tooth ios impossible to land with no help or blowing cooldowns —>you cant trust them in unless unless its for downed damages or you can back them with something which enemies can also blow immun..so they simply cant make up like 80% of your damage or even more which they would if air spells didnt exist
2)Fresh air is an amazing trait in the sense that it enables eles move a bit away of the spammy nature and play more intelligently.Since air is up most of the time you can do many more combos and use air skills at the right time.
If you touch the 1 (nerf air and arcanes damage ) then s/d ele wont be able to kill in full gc build while still drop like a fly
If you touch the 2 then you just take away my fun and you ll have to do with me :P

Insta 900 range burst says the opposite.

S/D damage is in air, not in fire.

Fire damage is for team fights, for downed bodies, for when you land your CCs.

To land D/D damage you need to be in your opponent’s kitten in order to do damage.

Lightning whip damage angle is pitiful, you need to be inside your opponent hoping he won’t move ( and anyway, dragon’s claws hit even harder if all of 3 land and crit).

S/D offers more reliability, range and tons of blinds ( also for the stomp), something D/D can do only by having evasive arcana and switching to air.

I mean, wut.

It really seems eles don’t even know their class sometimes.

If you think you can land D/D damage, i would really like to see how you fare against a necro at 900 range which will perma fear you as soon as you get around 200 range.

There’s a reason why S/D is better than D/D, and it’s RANGE, and the capability to burst hard even from 900 ( arcane blast+ air burst by themself deal a good 7-8k damage on squishies, about 5-6 k damage on necros/engies).

Pretty sure lightning whip is the best auto on any melee weapon in the game with regards to range.

Scepter does have higher burst potential in fire, and it does have the advantage of range. But main hand dagger has access to good sustain damage via lightning whip/fire 2/water 2, more CC options via earth 3/air 3/water 3, and a 6 second weakness on an 8 second cooldown (10 if not traited) via air 2.

Oh, and honestly, while I have to agree that instaburst isn’t healthy for the game.. Using arcane wave+blast is only really helpful when you’re playing a burst build (wave is good by itself in non-burst specs for the blast finisher but not so much for damage), and considering that most eles using double arcanes are also running lightning flash (sometimes arcane shield), it’s not that bad. Sure, we can do a lot of damage quickly, but having 0 stunbreaks while being the lowest survivability profession in the game using a burst build balances it out pretty well.

Mrbig.8019:

so you want insta burst from air/arcanes to be the benchmark for all professions ?

No thanks.

It sounds like you don’t know the ele class well enough to comment on it. Judging from all of your other posts, it sounds like you really only know the game from the perspective of a glass thief. That said, I still appreciate you sharing any views you have on the broader picture of tying high-damage attacks to riskier, longer-CD skills.

Now, to answer your view on fresh air eles:

The burst from a fresh air ele comes from them using all of their skills combined. Without fresh air procs, channeling air 1 and spamming air2 off CD does less DPS than lightning whip. With perfect fresh air procs, channelling air 1 and getting off the double static discharges still does less damage than an S/D thief’s autoattack chain. When a fresh air ele bursts you down, it’s because he comboed his air burst with either a fire burst or an earthquake + lightning flash.

Just swapping in and out of air while channeling air1 does mediocre damage and puts the full glass cannon ele at huge risk of getting instagibbed. First of all, it puts his other attunemnts on a full 10s CD, which is huge since he needs earth to survive any damage and water to heal. Second, to maximize his proc chance he has to keep channeling air1 after the attunement swap. If he dodges or casts any other spells after swapping out of air, he breaks the air1 channel and to reliably proc a crit he’ll either have to use water autoattack or earth autoattack (both of which rank amongst the worst autoattack skills in the game). In other words, if you think you’re dying purely to air burst, then you either failed to notice that he also firebursted you, or you’re a full glass thief who stayed in combat too long and didn’t pressure the ele (which is the counter to fresh air builds).

That said, I wouldn’t mind seeing air instaburst changed, but it’s not as big a problem as some people claim. Right now, all it really does is supplement the ele’s passive damage to be on par with other classes. If you actually do the math, fresh air just brings a glass ele’s passive damage to be about on par with most other classes’ zerker-build autoattack damage. The airburst only seems problematic because, after you eat a full earth+fire burst, the airburst + double arcanes will usually be enough to finish you off. If you dodge the first part (which is telegraphed and on a long CD), you avoid ~70% of the damage.

Mrbig.8019:

silvermember.8941:

Mrbig.8019:

so you want insta burst from air/arcanes to be the benchmark for all professions ?

No thanks.

coming from a guy that primarily plays a thief or talks about the thief or used when i cared to bother.

What you said is sooooooooooooooooo funnnnnny.

What are you finding so funny , pls tell me.

Ele is the only profession having a totally INSTANT burst, with no animations involved.

If ele sustained damage is low than fix it, we don’t need anymore instant bursts.

The only instant, damagin, skill the thief has is Steal when traited with Mug, that used to deal 4-5k in a full burst build.

Now it doesn’t crit anymore, 2k AT MAX.

Ele deals 2k by simply swapping to air, another 2k+ by using Lightning strike, both instant, both on extremely low CD ( both 5 secs with Fresh air).

This without accounting Arcane wave/blast. Both instant.

This isn’t exactly what i would call " skills with possible counterplay".

In a thread talking about " visible burst with clear animation", the ele has no place, unless you talk ONLY about Fire burst.

In that case, i agree.

So how can I see the animation of attacks out of stealth (with thief restealthing everytime he wants)? Please let me know

Mrbig.8019:

Insta 900 range burst says the opposite.

S/D damage is in air, not in fire.

Fire damage is for team fights, for downed bodies, for when you land your CCs.

To land D/D damage you need to be in your opponent’s kitten in order to do damage.

Lightning whip damage angle is pitiful, you need to be inside your opponent hoping he won’t move ( and anyway, dragon’s claws hit even harder if all of 3 land and crit).

S/D offers more reliability, range and tons of blinds ( also for the stomp), something D/D can do only by having evasive arcana and switching to air.

I mean, wut.

It really seems eles don’t even know their class sometimes.

If you think you can land D/D damage, i would really like to see how you fare against a necro at 900 range which will perma fear you as soon as you get around 200 range.

There’s a reason why S/D is better than D/D, and it’s RANGE, and the capability to burst hard even from 900 ( arcane blast+ air burst by themself deal a good 7-8k damage on squishies, about 5-6 k damage on necros/engies).

Pls stop trying to teach me the class i spent 1.5k hours playing in this game.
Lighning whips damage is x2 cause it hits 2 times per attack.That means it outdamages a perfect dragons claw everytime and the latter needs you to be inside the enemy for all 3 projectiles to hit plus no cleave
Lighting whis range has been fixed.It now hts in an almost 180 cone infront of you
I takled about sustain damage and mantaining pressure.Arcanes are utilities that are available to every ele..not only scepter ones.IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU HIT 3K CRIT EVERY 5 SEC MUCH WHEN IT COMES TO SUSTAIN DAMAGE..even if its instant
Now about d/d..i still need to go in close range with s/d and i dont expect to have any defencive utilities after i 1vs1 a necro with any weaponset i choose.Its not d/d proble.
D/d has multiple chill,immob on 12 sec +leap,rtl,burning speed andyou will run with flash as well.Also has cripple and ccs.D/d has been a defencive roamer since forever.You werent supposed to go in unleash everything and leave but stay there.,Now d/d users mostly die in spam
But anyway my point is that INDEED scepters damage is in air..It just happens that its instant which is irrelevant for sustain.If you simply nerf the damage you just killed scepter and eles completely.Im fairly sure about that..

ResJudicator.7916:

If you actually do the math, fresh air just brings a glass ele’s passive damage to be about on par with most other classes’ zerker-build autoattack damage.

Exactly..Thank you sir

So we all do less damage. Maybe they could remove armour benefits and just gives us blank armour that only runes can be applied to. They could also remove trinkets and only give us amulets. They could then change amulet stats to be different from PvE/WvW. They could also remove runes of perplexity etc….

oh wait,..they’ve already done that….They have already diminshed damage output.

Your idea that auto does ‘jab’ damage..well good luck to mace guardian/warrior where their mace primary three do auto-block-stun/ward…as you can see, the auto is the only sustained damage to that weapon. It is easy to say I’ll down grade my scepter which attacks at range in a channeled fashion as long as you down grade your melee weapon that doesn’t channel and requires you to be in constant melee range to connect. The day maces do ranged damaged in a channeled fashion, then that would be a more balanced idea. As long as blocks, evades, glancing blows exists, melee weapons auto should be able to connect for worth while damage.

problem:

Elementalist is the most complicated class to play in gw2, most classes are much simpiler.

not saying ele is complex, just that others are face-roll status and ele is… about average for a video game i would say

gw2 is designed so nobody will feel overwhelmed or challanged. balancing around the one class that could potentially make someone feel that way just wouldnt work with the design concept

Phaeton.9582:

This sounds like the exact same posts people made made about warrior 4 months ago.

Well, aside from mace, warrior’s skills are kinda readable… that’s why people enjoyed fighting warrior, I guess…

Problem is that combining high hps (not the highest, but among the highest ones) with heavy cc means you can’t take down a warrior (Note: even before the patch taking down a mace/hammer warrior with Soldier’s Amulet wasn’t that easy).

If you play without one of the two, things become easier, I guess. This should make some weapon sets more enjoyable for both the warrior and his enemies (and some build might be as strong as the meta ones, but much more interesting, like might stacking)

Daecollo.9578:

Elementalist needs to have traits that focus on 1-2 attunements, and less x/x/x/x/30

You don’t need to make traits that focus on one or two attunements. Just fix the Arcana line. Idk how many times somebody needs to tell you that.

ryston.7640:

problem:

Elementalist is the most complicated class to play in gw2, most classes are much simpiler.

not saying ele is complex, just that others are face-roll status and ele is… about average for a video game i would say

gw2 is designed so nobody will feel overwhelmed or challanged. balancing around the one class that could potentially make someone feel that way just wouldnt work with the design concept

Not really..Have you played mobas?I dont see how there is more complexity on an individual level there thatn in gw2.Also ive played pure hot key mmos..no complexity there either just longer rotations and usually a lot less weight on positioning and timing.
You only think the classes are a faceroll cause of bad number balancing.
Warrior for example used to be considered a very hard class to be good at it when it was underpowered .Now its very easy..What changed?Just numbers in healing/duration of effects etc (and cleansing ire of course but i find this good mechanic :P)
Imo all classes have potential for deep engaging builds that require decent amount of experience and skills to pull off.The current gameplay of gw2 pvp is nowhere near its true potential

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

So we all do less damage. Maybe they could remove armour benefits and just gives us blank armour that only runes can be applied to. They could also remove trinkets and only give us amulets. They could then change amulet stats to be different from PvE/WvW. They could also remove runes of perplexity etc….

oh wait,..they’ve already done that….They have already diminshed damage output.

No, that’s not my idea. I apologize if I was unclear. My idea is to make hard-to-land, longer-CD skills do the bulk of a class’s damage, while spammable/passive skills supplement that damage and provide other forms of utility. Everyone’s overall damage on paper could still be the same, or even higher. What will affect your damage the most is your skill in timing and landing your hard-hitting attacks.

I don’t know why you think I’m asking for everyone’s stats to be lowered. I’d appreciate if you can point out where you got that impression from, so that I can clarify my post.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Your idea that auto does ‘jab’ damage..well good luck to mace guardian/warrior where their mace primary three do auto-block-stun/ward…as you can see, the auto is the only sustained damage to that weapon. It is easy to say I’ll down grade my scepter which attacks at range in a channeled fashion as long as you down grade your melee weapon that doesn’t channel and requires you to be in constant melee range to connect. The day maces do ranged damaged in a channeled fashion, then that would be a more balanced idea. As long as blocks, evades, glancing blows exists, melee weapons auto should be able to connect for worth while damage.

I totally agree melee should do more damage than ranged, because it places you at greater risk. And melee burst should do more damage than ranged burst for the same reason. My point is just that, even for melee classes, the bulk of its damage should come from longer-CD burst attacks and not from simply spamming low-CD skills and autoattacks. This would mean retuning those weapons so that their auto is not the only source of meaningful damage.

And in all cases, autoattack damage is still going to be meaningful. But I don’t think it should comprise the bulk of your damage. If two evenly matched players fight, you should expect the player who makes fewer mistakes and lands more of his bursts to win, not the player who’s “1” skill happens to do more damage.

ryston.7640:

problem:

Elementalist is the most complicated class to play in gw2, most classes are much simpiler.

not saying ele is complex, just that others are face-roll status and ele is… about average for a video game i would say

gw2 is designed so nobody will feel overwhelmed or challanged. balancing around the one class that could potentially make someone feel that way just wouldnt work with the design concept

The “overwhelming” aspect of GW2 is having 4 sets of weapon skills to bounce between. I’m not saying that specific mechanic should be imported to the other classes.

For the purposes of this discussion, A.net can keep all the other classes’ core mechanics exactly as they are. It would only need to adjust some of the skills’ damage coefficients and cooldowns so that longer-CD skills hit harder and spammable skills hit for slightly less.

Avead.5760:

ryston.7640:

problem:

Elementalist is the most complicated class to play in gw2, most classes are much simpiler.

not saying ele is complex, just that others are face-roll status and ele is… about average for a video game i would say

gw2 is designed so nobody will feel overwhelmed or challanged. balancing around the one class that could potentially make someone feel that way just wouldnt work with the design concept

Not really..Have you played mobas?I dont see how there is more complexity on an individual level there thatn in gw2.Also ive played pure hot key mmos..no complexity there either just longer rotations and usually a lot less weight on positioning and timing.
You only think the classes are a faceroll cause of bad number balancing.
Warrior for example used to be considered a very hard class to be good at it when it was underpowered .Now its very easy..What changed?Just numbers in healing/duration of effects etc (and cleansing ire of course but i find this good mechanic :P)
Imo all classes have potential for deep engaging builds that require decent amount of experience and skills to pull off.The current gameplay of gw2 pvp is nowhere near its true potential

Well, Guild Wars 1 really comes to mind. I think positioning was important then, timing was rather important… it also had resource management and stuff. You dont have to convince everyone that creative builds were possible either, that was just accepted, they were possible.

I’m pretty unconvinced positioning has ever mattered less in any game. GW2 has so many gap closers, openers, and invulnerabilities that allow movement, the game is pretty forgiving of poor positioning choices.

Finally, the thing about a moba comparison is:
1) Positioning matters. More. Ok kitten LoL and summoner abilities. They encourage people to be bad and get away with it.
2) Less skill spam. Like, the conditions put on you matter, and removing them is a decision, not an auto tic. Sometimes. kitten tidehunter.
3) Mobas posess tempo. If a lane was a sword fight, each last hit is an efficient stroke, each botched roam is an exerted lunge. You wear your opponent into a disadvantage and then make a gambit for victory. A successful riposte on their part could be fatal.

GW2 is more like an arm wrestling match.

ryston.7640:

Finally, the thing about a moba comparison is:
1) Positioning matters. More. Ok kitten LoL and summoner abilities. They encourage people to be bad and get away with it.
2) Less skill spam. Like, the conditions put on you matter, and removing them is a decision, not an auto tic. Sometimes. kitten tidehunter.
3) Mobas posess tempo. If a lane was a sword fight, each last hit is an efficient stroke, each botched roam is an exerted lunge. You wear your opponent into a disadvantage and then make a gambit for victory. A successful riposte on their part could be fatal.

I think GW2 certainly has the potential to be what you’re describing, so I think we may actually agree on the core point in this discussion.

As a side note, I think positioning is currently incredibly important in GW2, especially since there’s less room for individual player skill. At higher levels where everyone plays their class well, the team that rotates its players better is going to be the team that wins. The real difference is that being out of position in a MOBA usually means that you get ganked and die. Being out of position in GW2 means that your team gets outnumbered at a another node and loses it.

Avead.5760:

Mrbig.8019:

Insta 900 range burst says the opposite.

S/D damage is in air, not in fire.

Fire damage is for team fights, for downed bodies, for when you land your CCs.

To land D/D damage you need to be in your opponent’s kitten in order to do damage.

Lightning whip damage angle is pitiful, you need to be inside your opponent hoping he won’t move ( and anyway, dragon’s claws hit even harder if all of 3 land and crit).

S/D offers more reliability, range and tons of blinds ( also for the stomp), something D/D can do only by having evasive arcana and switching to air.

I mean, wut.

It really seems eles don’t even know their class sometimes.

If you think you can land D/D damage, i would really like to see how you fare against a necro at 900 range which will perma fear you as soon as you get around 200 range.

There’s a reason why S/D is better than D/D, and it’s RANGE, and the capability to burst hard even from 900 ( arcane blast+ air burst by themself deal a good 7-8k damage on squishies, about 5-6 k damage on necros/engies).

Pls stop trying to teach me the class i spent 1.5k hours playing in this game.
Lighning whips damage is x2 cause it hits 2 times per attack.That means it outdamages a perfect dragons claw everytime and the latter needs you to be inside the enemy for all 3 projectiles to hit plus no cleave
Lighting whis range has been fixed.It now hts in an almost 180 cone infront of you
I takled about sustain damage and mantaining pressure.Arcanes are utilities that are available to every ele..not only scepter ones.IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU HIT 3K CRIT EVERY 5 SEC MUCH WHEN IT COMES TO SUSTAIN DAMAGE..even if its instant
Now about d/d..i still need to go in close range with s/d and i dont expect to have any defencive utilities after i 1vs1 a necro with any weaponset i choose.Its not d/d proble.
D/d has multiple chill,immob on 12 sec +leap,rtl,burning speed andyou will run with flash as well.Also has cripple and ccs.D/d has been a defencive roamer since forever.You werent supposed to go in unleash everything and leave but stay there.,Now d/d users mostly die in spam
But anyway my point is that INDEED scepters damage is in air..It just happens that its instant which is irrelevant for sustain.If you simply nerf the damage you just killed scepter and eles completely.Im fairly sure about that..

But i agree that D/D sustained damage is superior, it could be actually even the best one after Sword power ranger.

The point is that D/D damage is hard to land, burning speed is a terrible skill shot, auto-attack has very low range with very few gap closers and , tbh, not enough CCs to land it.

If you take classes like war-thief, they have so many gap closers on low CDs ( or no CDs at all) it’s not even funny, there’s a reason they’ve been the only melee glass cannon in the game till now ( and they alwasy talked about wars being too easily kited, mind you).

Overall the ele needs more gap closers, D/* sets are designed with melee in mind but you need to spec defensively because you’re too easily kited ( even a thief with shortbow could easily kill you if you build glass on a D/* ele).

Again, rearranging some skills and changing other ones would be ideal: scepter needs to be changed to be more of a bunker set while the damage needs to be in D/D – D/F.

Imho Lightning Touch and Dragon’s breath are good candidates for a total rehauling.

The problem with ele is similar to the warrior.

Warriors were always OP in WvW zergs and in PvE. there were horrible in PvP. So, ANET buffs warriors in PvP and now made them even more OP in WvW zergs (and even more so again when they buff shout heals) and in PvE.

For eles, they were OP everywhere for a period of time. So, they left the core of ele in WvW but nerfed ele hard in PvP. Now they are in the position that if they increase PvP, eles will be insanely OP in WvW again.

@Mrbig we mostly agree.But keep in mind ..all im saying is that they must not decrease sustain damage for scepter cause theres no reason too.Those insta gib eles are glass canons and they still take ages to kill a good guard for example compare to other glass canons and in my experience the only damage i pull through them is the insta or partly insta burst with an occasionaly phoenix.Same with s/d thieves..Highly telegraphed damage like the fire one is good and all and promotes good gameplay BUT..in this game were classes have pseudo stunbreaks on no cd or 8sec,an enormous amounts of dodges and invulns,multiple blocks etc it cant work
If you want all classes to do the biggest bulk oftheir damage the way ele fire burst works then you got to slow the game down a lot when it comes to escapes,mobility and active defences.
Thats my honest opinion

style.6173:

The problem with ele is similar to the warrior.

Warriors were always OP in WvW zergs and in PvE. there were horrible in PvP. So, ANET buffs warriors in PvP and now made them even more OP in WvW zergs (and even more so again when they buff shout heals) and in PvE.

For eles, they were OP everywhere for a period of time. So, they left the core of ele in WvW but nerfed ele hard in PvP. Now they are in the position that if they increase PvP, eles will be insanely OP in WvW again.

First this is spvp forum :P Now that we sorted this out..
Eles were OP in pve?When? Last time i remember it was like warr,warr,warr,guard mesm or something for every dungeon before the fgs bug or lh became popular?Also wvw you mean zerg combat and staff?Cause staff is like the definition of suckyness in pvp and d/d was nerfed just as much with rtl and huge mobility loss

Anyway if they managed to “keep” the core of ele in wvw while nerfing them hard in spvp , logic says they could do the opposite? right?Buf spvp ele while keeping their “core” in wvw the same :P

style.6173:

The problem with ele is similar to the warrior.

Warriors were always OP in WvW zergs and in PvE. there were horrible in PvP. So, ANET buffs warriors in PvP and now made them even more OP in WvW zergs (and even more so again when they buff shout heals) and in PvE.

For eles, they were OP everywhere for a period of time. So, they left the core of ele in WvW but nerfed ele hard in PvP. Now they are in the position that if they increase PvP, eles will be insanely OP in WvW again.

Ele is in this position because you guys shouted “OP OP!” ..but what was OP about ele?

First and foremost my definition of OP would be maybe my old ele build in GW1, where I would receive 0 dmg from any mele opponents at mele range ofc, even 3-4 warriors/sins was the same 0 dmg thx to weakness conditions and reduced dmg from weakened foes; all my attacks were 1s cast max and able to eat 50% of your HP every 10s ( lightning surge elite + lightning orb ) and I could outheal any necro/mesmer condition/hex or outlast any strip ench attempt as my ench were at 10s CD against 25s CD of strip ench skills.

For me was the norm to kill 2-3 people at time with my air ele in GW1, the only arguably challenges were pro mesmers rupt and earth eles….but even in GW1 I was easily killed by well combined spike ( strip ench + kd lock + burst )

Without doubt I would have remained silent if anybody would have called my ele OP and possibly agree with him , suggesting to increase the CD of a couple of skills.but GW2 is completely another matter.

Again I’ll take this opportunity to clarify a misconception or rather a lie that has been spreading for months, but that didn’t stop the Devs from using knee jerk reaction nerfs, I’m talking about the two variant of the infamous 0/10/0/30/30:

1) Valkirye ele = 14k HP + signet of restoration
-A balanced build able to outlast and burst down zerker build users with ease, months ago everybody was using a zerker amulet : 100b warrior, d/d thief and shatter mesmer.

It was months ago when everybody was still learning and professions like thief and warrior didn’t have the builds of today, now both go around with valkirye/soldier amulet dealing way more dmg than the old valkirye d/d ele ever did.

The regen warrior in W3 is more effective than the old healing troll d/d, whilestill being even more mobile , there is no burst instead the warrior here win by attrition..just like it was with d/d ele..still the ele was OP while having less mobility ( 15s CD rtl 1550 < GS warrior ) and less HP ( 15 k HP – 250 pts on cast healing signet VS 30 K HP – 420 pts for sec healing signet )

The question is now: Would the old d/d ele be OP against the current meta?…I strongly think not, so would have not be better to buff before the other professions rather than over nerf the ele and over buff other professions?

2) Cleric d/d ele = 13k HP +healing signet
- close to insignificant dmg, a pure bunker able to escape the point if losing but laking dmg to take them back and which case he’d simply become a worthless harasser while waiting for the d/d thief to bring actual burst

Now the the main complaint about the ele were:

-" too much healing…can’t kill..really boring to fight"
No kill from the ele..just very boring to fight, like all bunkers….was this really something requiring huge nerfs?

But the nerfs only damaged eles trying to use more balanced builds with less healing and actual dmg, the Devs simply hitted hard the ele survivability with the nerf hammer while increasing other professions survivability and dmg

S/D Burst

Long post the one above, few will read it and those few will possibly realize the stupidity of those nerfs on the ele as they were brought in along with huge buff to other profession.

Gladly the GW2 community seems to be improving, it is less prone to blindly follow famous QQ mobsters with their desperate attempt to nerf to the ground everything except their profession…because these QQ mobster do indeed play a single profession, their knowledge of other professions is limited to GW2 wiki and few youtube videos, nothing to seriously take in consideration.

A year ago I used to complain a lot aobut thieves and mesmers..then I started playing them and realized how unrealistic are the complaints of some individuals, even the spirit ranger, it’s definetely not as OP as those same individuals would like you to think.

Now to the s/d burst ele, I feel the need to inform the community with actual numbers:

- Fresh air trait has done nothing to bring the potential ele burst to “OP” level as some would like you to think and this is why:

A 0/20/0/20/30 ele can access the air minor trait and lightning strike every 9-10s and do great dmg if using both arcane skills ( one visible projectile that can miss and a PBaoe that want the ele in mele range )

A 0/30/0/20/20 ele can access the air burst every 5s because of ICD on fresh air and on air 2 lightning strike, the air minor trait does max 1k on medium toughness targets ( 1.4k -1.5k ) and 2k+ dmg on ZERKER amulet users and does not require ICD, therefore all in all a fresh air ele can cut by kitten on the frequency of use of this minor trait, ideally increasing the total dmg done by 1-2k dmg

If you have followed the math so far, you must have realized how little this fresh air trait bring to the table, it was implemented by the Devs to help eles in reducing their dependancy on 30 Arcana…an object partially achieved.

Since August 2012 the scepter has received 0 dmg buff and all of sudden the scepter is OP because of a mere 4s less on the use of a minor trait dealing 1k dmg?

A double arcane ele has got 0 stun breakers and the CD on these skills is 16-20s on arcane blast and 24-30s on arcane wave, they each one deal around 1.5k dmg on medium toughness targets ( 1.4k -1.5k).

A s/d ele needs to chain : earthquake-Lightning flash- air burst – phoenix- both arcane skill, a 6 skills rotation that require perfect positioning and timing ( you miss…you die most times).
Do you need counterplay?…Well you can use your fantasy, the same I use against invisible thieves bursting for 7k dmg from stealth ( with me sitting on 1500 toughness), 1200 range I zerker mesmers ( 7k dmg instant dmg + cripple), signet of spite burst necros and more.

Sure instant skills are terrible design..but the game is plenty of them and no ele can kill you by uusing the few available to him, whichever profession you play I’m sure there is something unfun about it ( perma stealth ? CC spamm?, clones spamm? )but learning to adapt I believe is more constructive than asking for nerfs on everything you don’t like isn’kitten