Guild Wars 2

In a forum teeming with angry Asura with pitchforks and torches crying for nerfs, I propose the opposite. What we need is not for the devs to bring other classes down, but to bring other classes up to par.

Even in the game’s current state, I believe that the potential for balance is already there, it’s just that the players have yet to embrace it. Two of the most popular builds right now are the Spirit Ranger and the Stun Warrior. While the Ranger is a powerful force, it is totally helpless against a competent Warrior. Now, Warrior has become the class on the public chopping block. The same people who voiced their displeasure with the condition meta now crucify the class that caused the meta to become much less impressive. You would expect people to jump to Mesmer in order to counter Warrior, but we aren’t really seeing that.

Mesmer has always been a strong class, it’s one major weakness is conditions. Now that you have Warrior around to counter Necromancers and Rangers, Mesmers should be able to easily re-enter the PvP arena in the role of support (portal, it’s still a great help) and Warrior slayer.

On the subject of Warrior, the class currently has the greatest number of viable builds of any class. If you ask me, I would say that the current Warrior is the standard that all other classes should be compared to.

One role that needs expanding is that of mid bunker. Right now that position has been dominated by Guardian, no other class can do it quite as well as they can. Most would agree that Ele is under-preforming currently. A good role for them to take up would be mid bunker. If they become just as viable as Guardian, but in different ways, it would lead to more team variety. Engis are another candidate for this role as well.

I believe that the ideal team composition would be as follows:
- [A Condition dealer] – Spirit Ranger, Necromancer
- [Lockdown] – Stun Warrior, Thief (so many dazes/stuns)
- [Support/Counter Lockdown] – Mesmer, Thief, Engi (if given appropriate buffs)
- [Mid Bunker] – Guardian, Ele, Engi
- [Choice] – Any class, probably some sort of home bunker

With this model, no class is left out in the cold. Every class has a viable role to play and each role can be filled by multiple classes. The [Choice] position is where things can get interesting. If one team opts for double Spirit Ranger, they may do well against certain team compositions, but they run the risk of being destroyed by a double Stun Warrior team. That Warrior team also runs the risk of encountering a Mesmer/Mesmer or Thief/Mesmer team.

I feel that ANet might actually be moving towards this thought, because rather than doing mass nerfs, they are focusing on minor shaves and buffs. The upcoming patch on the 15th sounds like it will be mostly buffs to support, which is something PvP is lacking currently.

I know Anet has made a good number of mistakes since launch, but let’s face it, GW2 PvP has the most potential out of any MMO on the market. It’s combat is so action oriented that it’s the most enjoyable experience that I’ve had since GW1. I just hope that eventually it can live up to its legacy.

The ideal composition is the one that wins the majority of matches against all levels of opponents.

It’s a lot more simple than what you’re trying to articulate. If a class doesn’t have the tools to be competitive and work well with your teammates, then it’s not worth your time.

If you can make it work and you go on winning streaks, beat highly ranked teams, and find yourself looking down on the competition good job people will notice and start copying your builds.

Until then, everything you’ve thought of in your post is theory. Get a team and try it out!

jmatb.6307:

The ideal composition is the one that wins the majority of matches against all levels of opponents.

It’s a lot more simple than what you’re trying to articulate. If a class doesn’t have the tools to be competitive and work well with your teammates, then it’s not worth your time.

If you can make it work and you go on winning streaks, beat highly ranked teams, and find yourself looking down on the competition good job people will notice and start copying your builds.

Until then, everything you’ve thought of in your post is theory. Get a team and try it out!

You say “copying your builds” like it doesn’t happen in every competitive game. It’s taking what works and using it. Not all top tier teams run the same thing, so saying that like every team copied one team and all run the same thing is invalid.

Anyone that argues that all top tier teams run the same thing must not be in the top-tier team loop and are simply stating that because the level of play they’re at is simply not top-tier and you WILL see the same team compositions at your level.

I’m not saying competitive teams are just copying and pasting, just that when you become successful people will notice and start trying to replicate that success themselves.

You’re assuming that and taking what I said out of context, or maybe take it personally I don’t know.

You’re right though I’m not top tier yet. I haven’t been playing this game for a month and a half. I do realize that it’s taking what works and winning with it, which is something I did not before and, in retrospect, I kind of made a fool of myself thinking I was good.

jmatb.6307:

I’m not saying competitive teams are just copying and pasting, just that when you become successful people will notice and start trying to replicate that success themselves.

You’re assuming that and taking what I said out of context, or maybe take it personally I don’t know.

You’re right though I’m not top tier yet. I haven’t been playing this game for a month and a half. I do realize that it’s taking what works and winning with it, which is something I did not before and, in retrospect, I kind of made a fool of myself thinking I was good.

Actually, if you look at the composition of the MLG winning team, Denial you’ll see that they are pretty much running exactly what I’m suggesting, they even had a Mesmer. It does work, but many of the players on this fourm would much rather blame the current state of things on Warrior and Rangers rather than trying to bring anything to counterplay them.

Ya I made a post about QQ addressing how pointless it is and that winning cures their self-pity.

I commend you for thinking of a team comp those kinds of efforts are always valuable if they help

Here’s an ideal comp for you:

2 spirit rangers, 2 warriors, 1 guardian.

Nothing needs to get “up to par” with warriors, necros, and rangers. Those 3 need to be toned down. Everything does way too much damage too quickly with no risk. Slowing down the game will make it more fun for players/shoutcasters alike.

Walorx.5129:

Nothing needs to get “up to par” with warriors, necros, and rangers. Those 3 need to be toned down. Everything does way too much damage too quickly with no risk. Slowing down the game will make it more fun for players/shoutcasters alike.

I’m advocating counters and expansions to roles that are already in the game, power creep doesn’t apply.

The game has gotten slower ever since they made quickness skills not worth taking. Not to mention the fact that tough builds are more popular than glassy ones with the exception of Thieves and a few other builds.

A group of five people chosen because they know how to play the classes the play extremely well?

A ranger, a guardian, an engi, a mes and an ele. Just had this team earlier and the other team just didnt stand a chance.

Seriously, you need 3 tanky classes/build (guardian, nec, warrior, ranger) and 2 damage classes/build (ele, mes, engi, thief).

BurrTheKing.8571:

Walorx.5129:

Nothing needs to get “up to par” with warriors, necros, and rangers. Those 3 need to be toned down. Everything does way too much damage too quickly with no risk. Slowing down the game will make it more fun for players/shoutcasters alike.

I’m advocating counters and expansions to roles that are already in the game, power creep doesn’t apply.

The game has gotten slower ever since they made quickness skills not worth taking. Not to mention the fact that tough builds are more popular than glassy ones with the exception of Thieves and a few other builds.

You do realize ‘slower’ is ‘able to realize you are dying before you are dead’…
Just because most builds aren’t consistently spiking people down in a second or two flat doesn’t mean the combat is at an ideal pace.

GW2 is based around skirmishes… teamplay isn’t near as important as in any other game, sure rotations are good, but the depth in that is a million times less than anything from a moba.
To make up for that the game needs combat itself, these skirmishes, to be deep and engaging. That doesn’t happen in a burst/bunker/CC centric game.

If Anet toned down how power/crit/critdmg scale together (making crits not scale much if at all with power) or making power/crit/critdmg mainly effect auto attacks (so being burst dps means having high dps more accessible and not be so realiant on burning abilities, typically with secondary effects like movement or debuffs, for dps)
Along with making CC more interrupt based…

Anyways.
Anet seems happy with the game as is, I mean with a few minor balance tweaks here and there so it doesn’t really matter.

I would just point out that 2 of your [Counter Lockdown] classes are countered by your [Lockdown] classes :P

Coulter.2315:

I would just point out that 2 of your [Counter Lockdown] classes are countered by your [Lockdown] classes :P

Thief and Engi can both build in such a way where they can hard counter the lockdown builds. Thief can run Sword/Dagger + Sword/Pistol, basically blind and evade, start stunning to bait out stability, steal stability, stun more. They can also just run heavy spike and assassinate them in team battles.

Engi with Protection Injection hardly has to worry about lockdown builds at all, the protection makes the damage they take almost laughable. Take it on a power build and you’ll also overwhelm the healing signet easily.

Alright right now you can pretty much play any team comp and do fine if the players are skilled. The only time just any team comp it does not work is if you get qued against the few remaining good teams like good fights. But can you guess why there is almost no other teams? Is because the meta is so kitten. Warrior = complete cheese and no skill to play atm, Spirit Ranger = complete cheese and no skill to play atm, Necro = complete cheese and no skill to play atm, Engi takes skill to play but you can argue it is a little over the top atm, condi mesmer (clones on death add conditions) is really annoying, oh and s/d thief requires little skill obv more than warr and spirit ranger. The reason people are qqing is because the classes right now with certain builds are way over the top anet needs to nerf a lot and bring back power meta that was when lot more skill and awareness was required. It is really boring to watch an endless team fight and thats why unless this meta goes away I don’t see this game ever reaching any level of competitive play.

apt.9184:

Alright right now you can pretty much play any team comp and do fine if the players are skilled. The only time just any team comp it does not work is if you get qued against the few remaining good teams like good fights. But can you guess why there is almost no other teams? Is because the meta is so kitten. Warrior = complete cheese and no skill to play atm, Spirit Ranger = complete cheese and no skill to play atm, Necro = complete cheese and no skill to play atm, Engi takes skill to play but you can argue it is a little over the top atm, condi mesmer (clones on death add conditions) is really annoying, oh and s/d thief requires little skill obv more than warr and spirit ranger. The reason people are qqing is because the classes right now with certain builds are way over the top anet needs to nerf a lot and bring back power meta that was when lot more skill and awareness was required. It is really boring to watch an endless team fight and thats why unless this meta goes away I don’t see this game ever reaching any level of competitive play.

Sounds like you might as well stop playing because you’ll probably never be pleased with the meta.

BurrTheKing.8571:

- [Lockdown] – Stun Warrior, Thief (so many dazes/stuns)

Yeah A-Net nerf this OP perma daze\stun thief meta, is soooo OP

ohh wait…

Some of what Apt says is true, but it ignores a lot of the bad aspects of the power meta.
The good of the power meta:
Meta classes had more complex gameplay (bigger combos and higher APM required)
Spike damage is exciting, requires good reactions/fast decisions.

The bad:
Cheese like time warp gg, 100b and 100n instagibs, low viability of engi/war/necro.
Too much spike damage is bad for spectators (plays happen too fast).

So yes, some of the current classes could use a bit more depth in their gameplay, and balance as always is a continuing effort, not a destination. Class viability across the board is pretty high right now though (sorry eles), and I see a lot of plays-counterplays going on… I think we’re getting close to a pretty good spot in the game.

Guardian is a must have, and must have a thief or a mesmer.
the rest are just optional.

i think you need a mid bunker, 2 condi dps roamers, home bunker and either a hybrid or DPS burst roamer

One has to be careful with ideal teams though that you don’t create a game of chess where how and when the pieces are moved is more important to winning. Much like chess where you need your rook to always be a rook and your bishop to always be a bishop. This creates a scenario where it will lock down profession builds rather than expand them, because you have your ideal that always moves a certain way and it is more about getting it into position at the right time, as opposed to what it potentially can do with creativity.