Guild Wars 2

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Amitabh Bachan.4385:

You are casual and have limited knowledge and experience of the game. Stop postin on a thread about class balance and how it affects your limited experience of PvP. Your derailing an otherwise constructive thread.

just because i play casually does not deny my rights to express my opinions on these forums as long as i do politely. thank you.

this topic is constructive but people asking for ridiculous nerfs to perfectly working fine things is not being constructive.

i will it say it again, if warriors is truly overpowered as many claimed to be, we will be seeing a lot of warriors in the game.

is this true? no, it is not.
therefore, warriors are not overpowered.

Do you go online and tell Stephen Hawking that astronomy is for casuals because you walked around on a starry night with your $20 dollar telescope… and that your opinion is relevant too?

lollasaurus.1457:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Amitabh Bachan.4385:

You are casual and have limited knowledge and experience of the game. Stop postin on a thread about class balance and how it affects your limited experience of PvP. Your derailing an otherwise constructive thread.

just because i play casually does not deny my rights to express my opinions on these forums as long as i do politely. thank you.

this topic is constructive but people asking for ridiculous nerfs to perfectly working fine things is not being constructive.

i will it say it again, if warriors is truly overpowered as many claimed to be, we will be seeing a lot of warriors in the game.

is this true? no, it is not.
therefore, warriors are not overpowered.

Do you go online and tell Stephen Hawking that astronomy is for casuals because you walked around on a starry night with your $20 dollar telescope… and that your opinion is relevant too?

nope.

yes, in this case, my opinion is very relevant because guild wars 2 is a game for casual players. sPvP included.

the casual players that plays all PvE / WvW / sPvP will be the ones still playing the game while the full of elitism purist 100% sPvP players will leave eventually.

one main reason why League of Legends has that many players is because that game is much more casual friendly.

games will succeed when it is made more casual friendly.

Gw2 is for hardcore try hard gamers cuz gw2 is a hardcore try hard game. Thanks for playing bye

lollasaurus.1457:

Gw2 is for hardcore try hard gamers cuz gw2 is a hardcore try hard game. Thanks for playing bye

qft

DoYourBestBear.6810:

lollasaurus.1457:

Gw2 is for hardcore try hard gamers cuz gw2 is a hardcore try hard game. Thanks for playing bye

qft

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cymerdown.4103:

DoYourBestBear.6810:

lollasaurus.1457:

Gw2 is for hardcore try hard gamers cuz gw2 is a hardcore try hard game. Thanks for playing bye

qft

qfqft

qfqfqft

lollasaurus.1457:

Gw2 is for hardcore try hard gamers cuz gw2 is a hardcore try hard game. Thanks for playing bye

i am not sure why you said that but guild wars 2 is a very casual game.

as proven statistically over time, those so called “hardcore” players have stopped playing guild wars 2 while most of the casual players remain.

guild wars 2 is a casual game, for casual players.

thanks for playing and happy year!

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i am not sure why you said that but guild wars 2 is a very casual game.

as proven statistically over time, those so called “hardcore” players have stopped playing guild wars 2 while most of the casual players remain.

guild wars 2 is a casual game, for casual players.

thanks for playing and happy year!

Youre wrong and right at the same time.

For a game to get a solid pvp player base it needs to be easy to get in to it. For a game to keep a solid player base the game needs depth and proper risk and reward.

So the game (classes and gamemodes) needs to be easy to get in to….but hard to master.

If you focus purely on a shallow casual approach, the pvp playerbase will die a slow death and it will be non existant by the time the upcoming new MMOs release. People will lose interest in it within record time.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

lollasaurus.1457:

Gw2 is for hardcore try hard gamers cuz gw2 is a hardcore try hard game. Thanks for playing bye

i am not sure why you said that but guild wars 2 is a very casual game.

as proven statistically over time, those so called “hardcore” players have stopped playing guild wars 2 while most of the casual players remain.

guild wars 2 is a casual game, for casual players.

thanks for playing and happy year!

Mario party 6 is also a casual game, but all the casual Mario Partiers have left the game, and sadly only the hardcore ones remain. Its really sad actually.

cymerdown.4103:

“Fear Me!” — This skill has been changed.
“Fear Me!”
Induce fear in your foes. Allies gain Stability.
400-600 range – Fear: 1 second
200-400 range – Fear: 1.5 seconds
0-200 range – Fear: 2 seconds
Stability: 3 seconds
Radius: 600
Breaks Stun
Cooldown: 60 seconds

This is straight nerf to only reliable skill that can be used on maps like Skyhammer. 3s stability on 1 min cd and still blindable/evadable fear part with 2/3 of previous duration? No, just no.

Good post OP, I admire the time, effort, and research that was put into this. If I had to add anything it would be buffs to bring back power necro (old d/d khalifa playstyle). Oh and maybe sigils applied to 2h weps have their effects doubled.
Again, great post. Hopefully we can get some reds over here to “collaboratively develop” and we can start getting the game’s balance back on track.

Rednik.3809:

cymerdown.4103:

“Fear Me!” — This skill has been changed.
“Fear Me!”
Induce fear in your foes. Allies gain Stability.
400-600 range – Fear: 1 second
200-400 range – Fear: 1.5 seconds
0-200 range – Fear: 2 seconds
Stability: 3 seconds
Radius: 600
Breaks Stun
Cooldown: 60 seconds

This is straight nerf to only reliable skill that can be used on maps like Skyhammer. 3s stability on 1 min cd and still blindable/evadable fear part with 2/3 of previous duration? No, just no.

Uhhh, It’s still an instant cast CC with no telegraph. Not to mention you have Hammer, kick and Stomp to get me off a cliff.

Rednik.3809:

cymerdown.4103:

“Fear Me!” — This skill has been changed.
“Fear Me!”
Induce fear in your foes. Allies gain Stability.
400-600 range – Fear: 1 second
200-400 range – Fear: 1.5 seconds
0-200 range – Fear: 2 seconds
Stability: 3 seconds
Radius: 600
Breaks Stun
Cooldown: 60 seconds

This is straight nerf to only reliable skill that can be used on maps like Skyhammer. 3s stability on 1 min cd and still blindable/evadable fear part with 2/3 of previous duration? No, just no.

Some points:

• A 3-second CC for an instant-cast, untelegraphed, unblockable skill is too long.
• Class balance shouldn’t be dictated by a single map in a single game mode
• In the vast majority of cases, this is actually a huge buff. Adding a stun breaker to the skill, and granting AoE Stability are both very powerful additions to the skill, at no increase in the cooldown. The motivation behind the change is to add a shout to the Warrior’s toolkit that can be used to cover stomps and resses, which improves the viability of the shout bunker Warrior build.

Reevz.2617:

wtb more counterplay for necro (travel time or delay on marks is ideal)

You see necro, you see he has staff, you see him casting mark, you dodge. What more counterplay you want? As most necros just spam marks in 2-3-4-5 then you can even start dodging when you feel hes used putrid mark. Only problem would be if you dont see the necro, but dont think you should be able to counter marks if you cant even see the one whos casting them.
I know it sounds like im kitten, but it actually is as simple as it sounds. You see necro casting mark, you dodge it.

Cleansing ire is not a problem,i have only 2 blocks and 1 blind and i always kitten other warriors cleansing ire up.Hs suggestion is good but needs decreased casting time to 0.5 and heal increased to 5250 more in par with ele low cd heal.Reroll the mace skull crack back to 0.25(keep the animation) and rework autoattack to 0.5 + 2 sec weakness/0.5 2 sec weakness/0.5(from 1 second)keep the same damage and weakness.It’s an 130 no mobility weapon needs a buff.

Add WAY more telegraphed animations and increased casting times to other classes not just for warrior this is kitten up.Start with necro fear.

Combustive shot single target ? You realize that travel of that arrow is slower than a player doing/walk right ?It’s a combo field pls explain how other classes have combo fields when they hit targets?Only hate but no reasonable suggestion at all.Nothing gained in return at all.Guardian symbols las 6 seconds and do 3 times more damage than combustive shot.They also tick every second and also give a buff to his party.Combu shot needs a buff was nerfed for QQ where other stuff with the same mechanics are way better in this game.

Reduce chill uptime and make that thieves initiative gets affetcted.Why si the most spammy class the only one immune to this effect ?Too much of a free pass and provides evenb less countyer to their teleport,evade spam.

Fix thies pistolwhip being so strong.Impossible to counter it unless you have an invulnerability skill or teleport up wich not every class has.

2014 stop hating on warrior and learn to counter.

Leeto.1570:

Reevz.2617:

wtb more counterplay for necro (travel time or delay on marks is ideal)

You see necro, you see he has staff, you see him casting mark, you dodge. What more counterplay you want? As most necros just spam marks in 2-3-4-5 then you can even start dodging when you feel hes used putrid mark. Only problem would be if you dont see the necro, but dont think you should be able to counter marks if you cant even see the one whos casting them.
I know it sounds like im kitten, but it actually is as simple as it sounds. You see necro casting mark, you dodge it.

necro auto attack, and the marks all look the same— the problem is lack of iunique animation combined with no travel time on an aoe ranged ability… this isn’t the only culprit to necro (scepter 2 )

it’s nearly the same thing if grenades on engineer blew up the moment the cast finished, or arcing arrow didn’t have travel time— lets be honest here and agree that it’s bs

Giving them unique animations would solve the problem. But giving them air time would be pretty ridiculous. Now if you buffed all the effects on marks so they’re on par with grenades, then we can give them air time.

Putrid mark is a separate issue that needs to be rebalanced, though.

Reevz.2617:

Leeto.1570:

Reevz.2617:

wtb more counterplay for necro (travel time or delay on marks is ideal)

You see necro, you see he has staff, you see him casting mark, you dodge. What more counterplay you want? As most necros just spam marks in 2-3-4-5 then you can even start dodging when you feel hes used putrid mark. Only problem would be if you dont see the necro, but dont think you should be able to counter marks if you cant even see the one whos casting them.
I know it sounds like im kitten, but it actually is as simple as it sounds. You see necro casting mark, you dodge it.

necro auto attack, and the marks all look the same— the problem is lack of iunique animation combined with no travel time on an aoe ranged ability… this isn’t the only culprit to necro (scepter 2 )

it’s nearly the same thing if grenades on engineer blew up the moment the cast finished, or arcing arrow didn’t have travel time— lets be honest here and agree that it’s bs

Nope, autoattack has completely different animation than marks. Every single mark has different animation so you can even tell which mark necro is casting.
Cant say its complete BS cause different classes work totally different so you cant even compare these skills.
If enemy could not only see that your casting mark but even where you cast it then staff would be broken and you would have to incrase default mark size to size of capture node.
You can counterplay necros, just noone gave a f about them for more than half year and thats why people havent done much research on how to counter them.

The amount of people not knowing about marks is amusing and saddening at same time
Autoattack – Pointing with hand
Bleed mark (Putrid) – Waving hand to side
Chill/poison – Same + bright green glow on hand
Condi xfer – Same + dark green and black glow on hand
Fear mark – unique animation of poking with staff

Acandis.3250:

Giving them unique animations would solve the problem. But giving them air time would be pretty ridiculous. Now if you buffed all the effects on marks so they’re on par with grenades, then we can give them air time.

Putrid mark is a separate issue that needs to be re-balanced, though.

it wouldn’t be ridiculous it would be a well needed change, marks have always been bs, unique animations MAY solve it if perhaps they are like the animation AFTER fear mark wherein activating the skill puts up some necroish stuff? above you when you begin casting // though i’d prefer travel time because it promotes a little risk-reward (getting up close ensures its easier to hit) though marks are pretty godkitten big so i doubt they would be difficult to land (by that i mean if you miss you probably haven’t been playing the game for too long)

@leeto looking for a tiny asuras hand glowing 1200 range away or any necro for that matter is rather absurd. all of their animations are so simmilar that by the time you can tell the difference you wont be able to dodge in time.

The point at which the difference in the animation is significant enough to discern which ability is being used is too late into the cast for a reaction to be made.

Reevz.2617:

Acandis.3250:

Giving them unique animations would solve the problem. But giving them air time would be pretty ridiculous. Now if you buffed all the effects on marks so they’re on par with grenades, then we can give them air time.

Putrid mark is a separate issue that needs to be re-balanced, though.

it wouldn’t be ridiculous it would be a well needed change, marks have always been bs, unique animations MAY solve it if perhaps they are like the animation AFTER fear mark wherein activating the skill puts up some necroish stuff? above you when you begin casting // though i’d prefer travel time because it promotes a little risk-reward (getting up close ensures its easier to hit) though marks are pretty godkitten big so i doubt they would be difficult to land (by that i mean if you miss you probably haven’t been playing the game for too long)

@leeto looking for a tiny asuras hand glowing 1200 range away or any necro for that matter is rather absurd. all of their animations are so simmilar that by the time you can tell the difference you wont be able to dodge in time.

The point at which the difference in the animation is significant enough to discern which ability is being used is too late into the cast for a reaction to be made.

Your not supposed to tell the difference from 1200, your teams mellee gotta tell the difference when hes penetrating him at 200 range, for most part just so he dont get hes condis back in face or feared away.
You see necro has staff, you watch hes hand, hand turns into black smoke, you dodge. 3/4 s is enough time for most top players.
How do you imagine travel time on marks? (not physicly ofc you can just make black smoke flying to the place of mark) but marks just cant work that way. Example fear mark, you cant stop stomp with it anymore cause it depends on how far your downed ally is. or slowing down runners with frost mark.
People dont want counter for marks, they can be countered in many ways even with just correct movement cause you cant just throw mark on top of player with swiftness, you gotta put it in front of them, people want easy mode counter for marks.
People just get facemelted by dumb stuff like uncounterable passive burn aka dhumbfire and then go “oh i saw that foker spamming marks like mad must be why i went down”
You can tell which mark enemy is casting and you can counter them. Lets stop whining about problems that dont exist and get to kitten like passive skills and AI.

marks have always been a guessing game (for the one being hit by them) a large part of the necro kit in general has low counterplay

cymerdown.4103:

Mesmer

Summary: Mesmer saw buffs to their condition build options by having the Scepter skills improved. Some of the weaker skills, including Mantras, saw some needed buffs. Mantra of Pain was replaced by Mantra of Haste, giving the Mesmer a way to quickly recharge another Mantra or to quickly burst down a target. Confounding Suggestions was bugfixed, and some Vigor was removed from Critical Infusion. Deceptive Evasion was moved to the Illusions tree, removing some reliance of the meta shatter build from the Dueling tree and thus opening up new build possibilities. Prismatic Understanding was adjusted downward slightly, mainly for WvW concerns.

Ether Blast — Now also applies Bleed(1): 2 seconds.

Ether Clone — Reduced the casting time to 0.75 seconds, down from 1 second.

Confusing Images — Reduced the channel time to 2.25 seconds, down from 3 seconds. The first pulse now occurs at 0.25 seconds into the channel, with subsequent pulses every 0.5 seconds thereafter. Reduced the base damage to 760 (2.4), down from 840 (2.5).

While making the damage from Confusing Images more concise is a good idea (it’s slow and clunky to use right now), I don’t think you need to reduce the damage on it. Almost all mesmer weapons are already pigeon holed into being a condition damage or normal damage weapon (staff, scepter are almost objectively condition weapons, sword, greatsword are almost objectively power weapons). If creating more build diversity is the aim, making scepter do even less base damage and even more condition damage is not the way to go.

Mimic — The first projectile absorbed is now also negated.

NEEDED bug fix to make this skill even CONCEIVABLY usable.

Arcane Thievery — The cooldown was reduced to 40 seconds, down from 45 seconds.

A reasonable change. Seeing as it’s one of mesmers only options for a condition removal utility, any buff is appreciated, but I don’t think this is going to make a huge difference in survivability versus conditions. It increases the skills condition removal from .0667 conditions per second to .075 conditions per second. Still nowhere near something like warriors Cleansing Ire which can cleanse .3 conditions per second pretty easily.

Mantra of Concentration — The casting time was reduced to 2.5 seconds, down from 2.75 seconds.

Mantra of Distraction — The casting time was reduced to 2.5 seconds, down from 2.75 seconds.

Any reduction in the charging time of Mantras is appreciated. Unless it is shortened to 1.5 seconds or lower though, I don’t think you’re going to see widespread use of them. The problem isn’t that the charge effects are bad, it’s that they’re recharging them in combat is almost impossible. An already squishy class being forced to stop using any skills for 2.5 seconds seems like an eternity, not to mention it is extremely easy to interrupt for even the slowest reacting player. As it stands right now, a Mesmer probably isn’t going to try to recharge their mantras in combat (and if they do, it’s likely because they’re out of other options and are going to die soon anyway), and a quarter second reduction in charging isn’t going to make much of a difference.

Mantra of Pain — This skill has been redesigned. It is now called, “Mantra of Haste”.
Mantra of Haste
Meditate, charging a spell that will speed up your actions for a short time.
Casting Time: 2.5 seconds
Cooldown: 30 seconds

Power Speed
Quickness: 2 seconds
Cooldown: 15 seconds

An interesting idea, but I think it would be better as its own skill rather than replacing Mantra of Pain. Mantra of Pain is not a useless skill as it is. It can add decent spike damage to a gimmicky spike-damage spec, and some specs use its 1 second cooldown to make a bunker-type mesmer that relys on the Restorative Mantras (heal on mantra charge) trait. I don’t think there’s any reason to replace a not-useless skill with a different one entirely.

Mantra of Resolve — The casting time was reduced to 2.5 seconds, down from 2.75 seconds.

Confounding Suggestions — This trait has been bugfixed to work properly with Chaos Storm.

Deceptive Evasion — Moved to Illusions Tree’s Master tier.

Moving Deceptive Evasion to Illusions would hurt power-Mesmers significantly while making condition Mesmers a far better option than they already are. Almost every non-gimmicky mesmer build there is uses deceptive evasion (just look at the mesmer forums), and moving it to a different tree is not going to stop people from taking it. Now instead of ~10% critical chance and 20% critical damage from following Duelling to get the trait, the Mesmer gets 20% recharge on shatter skills (almost negligible) and 200 condition damage.

This is a BIG buff to condition mesmers as they now get 200 condition damage and 20% reduction on illusion cooldowns. They’re still likely going to go 15 points into Duelling for bleed-on-phantasm-crit, leaving them 35 points which they could still spend on Prismatic Understanding. The DPS mesmer on the other hand either has to give up a lot of damage from not taking 20 points in the Duelling tree, or they don’t get Deceptive Evasion which is going to hurt their shatter potential, further pigeon holing mesmers into either 100% phantasm or 100% shatter.

The DPS mesmer is also going to be much easier to kill, as creating visual noise with clones is a BIG part of mesmer survival.

Critical Infusion — Reduced Vigor duration to 3 seconds, down from 5 seconds.

Seems like an arbitrary change. Why 3 seconds? A PU mesmer who is 30 points into Chaos will still get near perma-vigor with at least 3.9 seconds of vigor, and the combination of stealth/evades that PU has is the only spec that can really abuse perma-vigor dodge rolls. If you weaken a mesmers access to dodge rolling, which is the most active way of avoiding damage they have, they’re going to have to rely more on stealth and teleports, which is going to push people further towards PU and staff. PU doesn’t need to be a more attractive option than it already is.

Prismatic Understanding — The Protection granted by this trait has been reduced to 2 seconds, down from 3 seconds.

It’s obvious this trait needs changed but this isn’t enough to make it unattractive. I don’t know what has to be done to change PU mesmers, but this is not it.

Illusionary Invigoration — Moved to Adept tier. The cooldown was increased to 90 seconds, up from 60 seconds.

This trait is reasonable at Adept with a 90s CD or Master with a 60s CD. Since you’re only moving it to fit it into a shatter build with the proposed moving of Deceptive Evasion to Illusions Master tier, I would rather have it at Master tier. Either way, if it’s adept or master, you’re probably going to choose Illusionary Invigoration and Compounding Power as your Adept and Master tier traits in some combination (some people MIGHT choose Illusionary Elasticity in a shatter build, but it’s far from required).

Dazzling Glamours — Moved to Master tier.

Please DON’T move this back to Master tier. All this would do is revert the nice little buff Glamour mesmers got in the last patch. Instead of being forced into 20/0/0/20/30, you can now take 20/0/0/20/20 and move the last 10 points in Illusions elsewhere. Glamour mesmer is just about the only viable mesmer spec in large scale WvW fights, and this arbitrary change would be a huge, unneeded nerf. There’s no Mesmer build out there abusing the fact that it’s an adept tier trait, so there’s no need to change it back.

Phantasmal Haste — Moved to Dueling Tree’s Master tier.

CONCLUSION
Since I kind of cheated and know your goal is to make shatter mesmers more viable and have more build diversity, I cannot stress enough that moving Deceptive Evasion to Illusions is NOT the way to do it. That change is too single-minded with the goal of making shatter mesmer more viable. You’re going to hurt a LOT of other builds, mostly power based ones, by doing that. I do have a suggestion that will both improve shatter diversity and mesmer build diversity in general.

Move Deceptive Evasion to Adept tier in Duelling.

It sounds like a ridiculously overpowered suggestion, but here’s why it’s not. Almost every build is already putting 20 points into Duelling for Deceptive Evasion anyway, everything else is secondary. If you make it an adept trait, you have real choices when it comes to picking traits. Do you go 15 points into Duelling for bleed-on-illusion-crit? If you’re a condition Mesmer, the answer is almost certainly yes. Condition Mesmers MIGHT get an extra 5 trait points freed up if they decide that phantasms having fury isn’t as strong as another trait.

Do you go 20 points for Blade Training or Phantasmal Fury? Do you go 20 points in just for the extra 5% critical chance and 10% critical damage? These are REAL choices. A condition mesmer really needs Illusions Bleed on Critical Hit. A DPS Mesmer might choose the damage from Phantasmal Fury over the utility of another trait line. The point is that they have the OPTION to choose these things instead of already having it handed to them since they’re 20 points into Duelling anyway. Deceptive Evasion is too integral to the mesmer play style to give up in most cases. Moving the trait to another tree is just going to change which tree mesmers are forced into.

Since your goal is to make shatter mesmer more viable, this would allow a shatter mesmer to go X/10/X/X/30 instead of X/20/X/X/30. A typical build will probably be 20*/10/X/X/30, since vulnerability on daze and remove boon on shatter is very strong in SPvP. Freeing up only 10 points gives a previously set-in-stone shatter build a ton of new options.

You can go 30 points into Domination for Confounding suggestions for really strong stun locking. You can go 10 points into Inspiration for Vigorous Revelation (AoE Vigor on shatter) for really strong team support. You can take Mender’s Purity (remove 2 conditions on heal) to increase your condition removal, which shatter mesmers sorely lack. You can take Rending shatter (AoE vuln on shatter). Just tons of new options. Or you might decide that the extra damage from the Duelling line is the best option and stick with 20/20/0/0/30.

So that’s my two cents.

Oh and of course the biggest buff of all to shatter mesmer would be to change the functionality of Illusionary Leap. The game engine cannot handle the path-finding for this skill with any kind of certainty, so if you want it to be viable at high level play, it needs to change.

It flat out does not work on slopes, sometimes not even very steep slopes. It struggles on certain staircase designs, and sometimes it will follow a pointlessly long path to its target (try using it on a target on point B on Skyhammer while you’re just off-point).

The skill should have functionality more similar to Infiltrators strike with Sword Thieves. Keep the same “pointing” type animation that Mesmers have now when they summon the Illusionary Leap illusion to give it some kind of “tell”, keep the same icon that appears on the buff bar when Mesmers have Illusionary Leap active, hell make the mesmer glow or something to give it an obvious tell, but the pathfinding from the clone MUST go.

You could even consider having the clone spawn next to the enemy instead of having it run to them. I would still prefer having it be an instant teleport like i just described, though, because the less such an important skill has to do with AI, the better.

Making this simple change to one skill would instantly make shatter mesmer more viable. As of right now, landing Illusinary leap is almost required to land a successful shatter combo because of the nature of having to have your clones run to the target, and how easy it is to dodge roll through clones to make them shatter on nothing.

I mean, what other skill in the game do you have to think “can I use this skill here or is this incline too steep?”?

Thanks for the detailed analysis, Potato. Admittedly, you’ve played a lot more Mesmer builds than I ever have, and probably a lot more than most other Mesmers have. I really appreciate your insight here. I’ve given you some counterarguments to your points privately, but you make some good points yourself, especially in relation to condi Mesmer builds. If someone on the skills and balance team is reading, definitely take both sides into account and see how many points here you agree with.

I’ll only present a few counterpoints, since the discussion can go pretty long if I break down everything you’ve said here:

• Deceptive Evasion does currently go into a lot of builds, but is by far the strongest trait that a shatter build can take. Putting it into Illusions, which I do admit is a bit of an awkward tree for non-shatter, non-condition builds, I am hoping to unlock a lot of shatter build diversity while also encouraging non-shatter builds to shy away from the trait and take other traits, especially Phantasm-related.
• I am also specifically aiming here at somewhat nerfing non-shatter playstyles. Those types of builds are fine, but in terms of high level PvP, it is not a very active playstyle, and should specifically be aimed at lower ELO tiers of play along with other AI-related builds.
• Mantra of Pain and support Mantra builds are not currently very viable, and the damage from MoP doesn’t synergize very well with the build anyway (although the low cooldown does). Mantras are very obvious and interruptable, which hurts their viability greatly for PvP. By adding a Mantra that gives quickness, it both increases the utility of the build (you have to sacrifice things like Null Field, Portal, etc. to slot Mantras, which is a huge loss of utility), and also provides a way to quickly recharge a needed Mantra in a clutch situation. At least, that’s my idea.
• The nerf to Critical Infusion is part of an overall nerf of Endurance regeneration across all classes that began with the changes to Thief, Ranger and Engineer in the last patch. Mesmers do need Endurance in order to fuel Deceptive Evasion, since clones are an important part of their class mechanics, but I don’t think this change would be damaging enough to destroy Mesmer viability or anything. Mesmer would still have a great amount of access to evasion and stealth, and I don’t think it would funnel people harder to PU as you suggest. Lastly, this trait is a bit too powerful as a 5-point trait as it currently stands, and locks a lot of builds even harder into spending points in the Dueling tree.

cymerdown.4103:

Thanks for the detailed analysis, Potato. Admittedly, you’ve played a lot more Mesmer builds than I ever have, and probably a lot more than most other Mesmers have. I really appreciate your insight here. I’ve given you some counterarguments to your points privately, but you make some good points yourself, especially in relation to condi Mesmer builds. If someone on the skills and balance team is reading, definitely take both sides into account and see how many points here you agree with.

Sure thing

I also don’t want to make it seem like I think condition mesmers are ridiculously overpowered either. They really shine in 1v1s where the opponent can’t run away and are forced to fight back. They’re not doing much in sPvP since you can’t cap points while stealthed, you can’t burst down a bunker (if they can kill them at all), they’re slow with no access to swiftness so you can’t move from point to point as a roamer. They’re OK in team fights, but so is just about anyone with a warm body. They can’t spam conditions like an engineer or necro, they don’t offer anything in terms of team boon or healing support; they just exist. You’d be better off playing shatter and spiking someone down.

The counter-play to a condition mesmer is usually to just run away from them or don’t fight back at all. If you’re bunkering a point, you can probably just let the mesmer attack you and you don’t have to do anything. They can’t kill you if you don’t proc their torment from their block or the confusion from their scepter. All they have is bleeds and burning to kill you with (not even burning if they’re a scepter/pistol sword/torch varient).

Sorry, I edited my post. And I agree with what you just said about condition Mesmer, giving them a small buff with the trait move might help the spec a bit, and I’d be alright with that.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Amitabh Bachan.4385:

You are casual and have limited knowledge and experience of the game. Stop postin on a thread about class balance and how it affects your limited experience of PvP. Your derailing an otherwise constructive thread.

just because i play casually does not deny my rights to express my opinions on these forums as long as i do politely. thank you.

this topic is constructive but people asking for ridiculous nerfs to perfectly working fine things is not being constructive.

i will it say it again, if warriors is truly overpowered as many claimed to be, we will be seeing a lot of warriors in the game.

is this true? no, it is not.
therefore, warriors are not overpowered.

Bs, I see warriors everyday.

cymerdown.4103:

Thanks for the detailed analysis, Potato. Admittedly, you’ve played a lot more Mesmer builds than I ever have, and probably a lot more than most other Mesmers have. I really appreciate your insight here. I’ve given you some counterarguments to your points privately, but you make some good points yourself, especially in relation to condi Mesmer builds. If someone on the skills and balance team is reading, definitely take both sides into account and see how many points here you agree with.

I’ll only present a few counterpoints, since the discussion can go pretty long if I break down everything you’ve said here:

• Deceptive Evasion does currently go into a lot of builds, but is by far the strongest trait that a shatter build can take. Putting it into Illusions, which I do admit is a bit of an awkward tree for non-shatter, non-condition builds, I am hoping to unlock a lot of shatter build diversity while also encouraging non-shatter builds to shy away from the trait and take other traits, especially Phantasm-related.
• I am also specifically aiming here at somewhat nerfing non-shatter playstyles. Those types of builds are fine, but in terms of high level PvP, it is not a very active playstyle, and should specifically be aimed at lower ELO tiers of play along with other AI-related builds.
• Mantra of Pain and support Mantra builds are not currently very viable, and the damage from MoP doesn’t synergize very well with the build anyway (although the low cooldown does). Mantras are very obvious and interruptable, which hurts their viability greatly for PvP. By adding a Mantra that gives quickness, it both increases the utility of the build (you have to sacrifice things like Null Field, Portal, etc. to slot Mantras, which is a huge loss of utility), and also provides a way to quickly recharge a needed Mantra in a clutch situation. At least, that’s my idea.
• The nerf to Critical Infusion is part of an overall nerf of Endurance regeneration across all classes that began with the changes to Thief, Ranger and Engineer in the last patch. Mesmers do need Endurance in order to fuel Deceptive Evasion, since clones are an important part of their class mechanics, but I don’t think this change would be damaging enough to destroy Mesmer viability or anything. Mesmer would still have a great amount of access to evasion and stealth, and I don’t think it would funnel people harder to PU as you suggest. Lastly, this trait is a bit too powerful as a 5-point trait as it currently stands, and locks a lot of builds even harder into spending points in the Dueling tree.

I think you’re thinking too narrowly in terms of sPvP. Sure in high level TPvP people aren’t using mantra of pain/restorative mantras, but you’re balancing something that would change across the entire game. These are things that are used in WvW.

You’re also focusing too much on splitting mesmer builds into phantasm or shatter. This is an arbitrary split with no hard reason behind it. Mesmers do not always fall into one category or another anymore than Warriors fall into “Two-Handed” or “Duel wielding” specs. You would be hard pressed to find a mesmer build that never uses any of the shatter skills, and it would be impossible to find a spec that doesn’t summon any phantasms.

Making Deceptive Evasion an Illusions trait WILL shift the viability of any given mesmer spec from power towards conditions even more than it already is. Illusions is a heavily condition-biased tree that is rarely used in power specs outside of shatter.

Some changes are decent while others I wouldn’t bother with. For instance, the proposed changes to Sigil of Energy sounds fair. However, reverting say Signet of Restoration back to its original form is most certainly not. If you’re going to revert this skill, i’d say make it so you have to hit your opponent to produce any healing instead of just blindly spamming while retreating.

cymerdown.4103:

Necromancer

Summary: The support from Putrid Mark was increased. Lich Form’s autoattack damage was reduced slightly, and two of its other abilities were improved. The duration of conditions caused by Signet of Spite were reduced a bit to lower its extreme effectiveness, especially in 1v1s. Minion Masters saw a slight reduction in minion damage from Training of the Master, and Terror was moved up to Grandmaster tier.

Marks — Marks now start to appear as they are being cast. They start off as mostly transparent, becoming fully opaque as the cast time ends.

Putrid Mark — Now also transfers 1 condition from up to 5 allies within 600 range of the mark when triggered to enemies within the mark, in addition to the 3 conditions transferred from the caster.

Grasping Dead — Returned the 3rd bleed stack to PvP.

Signet of Spite — Changed the active effect to the following:
Damage: 263
Bleeding(2): 7 seconds
Blind: 5 seconds
Crippled: 5 seconds
Poison: 7 seconds
Vulnerability(5): 7 seconds
Weakness: 5 seconds
Activation: 0.5 seconds
Range: 1200

Deathly Claws — Reduced damage by 10%.

Marked for Death — Now gives Vulnerability(10): 8 seconds, instead of Vulnerability(8): 10 seconds.

Mark of Horror — Reduced the casting time to 1 second, down from 1.5 seconds. Now summons 6 jagged horrors, up from 5.

Training of the Master — Reduced damage increase to 20%, down from 30%.

Weakening Shroud — Now applies Bleed(2): 6 seconds, instead of Bleed(1).

Withering Precision — Moved to Master tier.

Terror — Moved to Grandmaster tier.

You forgot Move Dumbfire to Curses Grandmaster tier

I can’t really agree to most of what you did to Elementalist as a Staff user. More work is needed there. Arcane Brilliance will still not be used because it’s not Ether Renewal. Same with SoR. The Diamond skin change actually makes it worse then before. Lightning Flash CD doesn’t make sense. Just give it Stun breaking and call it done.

I don’t particularly like the change to the Engineers Utility Goggles tool belt skill Analyze. This is my personal opinion however and I do agree with the majority of the other changes across the board! But Analyze’s instant cast time and short cool down is what makes it so charming.

I feel Analyze should at least inflict weakness onto your target, or perhaps remove Protection from the target, and if the target doesn’t have Protection it could apply the 10 Vulnerability/Weakness.

I am an Engineer, although I have played all professions in depth just to understand them I feel I don’t have a place to speak about the others. But I don’t have any problems with Thief’s for the most part. Although a Reveal would be a powerful asset against Mesmers and Rangers as well as other Engineers I feel that Thief’s have a difficult time surviving currently and making the Reveal mechanic easily accessible to more and more professions may hurt a profession that so heavily relies on it.

That being said, Pertaining to the actual Utility skill: Utility Goggles I strongly think that if nothing else activating your Utility Skill should remove Stability from your target with a 1,200 range. This would be (I feel) and innovative change because currently 40 seconds is a steep price to pay for a simple Stun break and short Blind immunity. When options such as the Elixir Gun can bring everything the Utility Goggles can bring and about 14 other things as well. My point is that giving Utility Goggles the ability to boon hate Stability means you have an interesting and fun choice when in battle! (Ex: Do I wait for this warrior to pop stability thus using my stun breaker offensively, or break his hammers stun so he doesn’t half my health in a full stun combo OR I could gamble and wait for him to stun me again while he has stability and launch a counter attack.) This, to me is a fun mechanic that at the very least should exist in some form.

Anywho, nice list mate.

cymerdown.4103:

Cynz.9437:

as far as thief requirement on team, please tell me the source where you got such idea… the reason why high ranked teams still play with a thief is simple: would you rather play with some random person you don’t know for the sake of the class or would you play with the guy you know for long time and you know he good?

i would go with the last and as far as forums go, all i see from posts is that thieves are bottom tier, please prove me wrong

also don’t forget, that this game is not balanced around 10 ppl that are amazingly good at their class but around majority and in big picture thieves are a joke in many cases

Ok, well don’t read forums to find out about class viability. I’m going based off of tournament results and personal experience with teams. Thieves are highly desirable on teams for the following major reasons:

1) Highest horizontal and z-axis mobility in game, very important in a game mode about point capture.
2) Fast kills on a called target, especially on ones that have used some of their cool downs in a teamfight.
3) Because of evasion and/or stealth, they can build full glass and extend and pressure the other team’s squishiest members without as much fear of counterpressure as other glass cannon builds.
4) Sleight of Hand stops Stability-covered resses, stomps, and res utilities.

A shatter Mesmer is the closest match for the Thief, but are somewhat outshined by Thief at the moment.

1) which tournament are you talking about?
2) many classes can kill someone fast, it is not something that special to thief; as mes or ele i can blow someone really fast and won’t even have certain positioning requirement… heck even as war i can eviscerate people for 13k and still have certain survivability
3) the reason why thieves build glass is because tehy don’t have any other viable choices: if you want to do any half decent dmg on thief you have to go glass, if you invest into survival your dmg will be pathetic and even if you build full tank you still get 2 shot; yes, there is condi/toughness build but it is sad dmg wise and can be easily countered… thieves don’t really have a choice and stealth is hardly an good survival tool when game is based around spamming aoe condis/CCs on point

saying that pressuring thief is not possible is wrong, it is pretty easy to kill a thief if you know how they work and i saw quite few teams that were focusing the hell out of thieves and they were useless the entire match

4) there are pretty of things that also stop rezzes and stomps…. 30 pts traits is not only one… and besides, if thief wasted 21 sec CD to stop rez i think you won than one

i know this is soloq but it just a prime example where thief is completely worthless; the score was somewhere around 125-500…
take a guess why? because as i stated before in other thread, thieves are only good as their team they can’t carry it simply because tournament builds are not ment for dueling and they can’t bunker points nor capture them if someone is already guarding it (unless player is bad or another thief)

lastly i still don’t see any good explanation why squishiest class in game with no survivability what’s however should have their only reliable stun break nerfed

1) Pick any recent tournament. There hasn’t been one since the latest patch, but if there were one tomorrow, there would be a thief on each team in the finals, guaranteed. Check EU ESL weeklies, thief on almost every team.
2) Yeah, but a thief can teleport in and burst a mid to low health target instantly, without much warning. Thief is just the best ganker out of any class, given their mobility and on demand burst damage. That’s what they are designed to do, and do it well.
3) I didn’t say you can’t pressure a thief, but one with good positioning who knows when to go in can pick the perfect moment to burst, which again makes them excellent gankers against the enemy team squishies. When things are going badly, good thieves can be very slippery and get away more often than not to reset or rotate to a different fight.
4) But, a thief can stop a res utility through Stability, which is almost always going to be up for a res in teamfight. Only Mesmer has the same power, but Thief is more generally viable than Mesmer at the moment. Solo queue results may vary, and aren’t really indicative of actual thief viability. Shadowstep does a ton for a 50 second cooldown ability, a bit too much in my opinion. It’s a bit overpowered, and contributes quite a lot to a thief’s slipperiness. 60 second cd would bring it more in line with how strong the utility is.

i like all ranger suggestions, definitely pet scaling. then pet affinity in BM can increase % of scaling.

cymerdown.4103:

Signet of Renewal — This skill now always transfers all conditions from you to your pet, regardless of range.

renewal is a nice skillshot atm. this change would make it simpler to use, but i think we need to take things in the other direction with ranger. more interactive. renewal is amazing as it is, it forces you to consider your petswap cooldowns & positioning relative to both your pet & the pet relative to allies. the reward is great & the counterplay is mostly self controlled, meaning it is up to the Ranger to execute it properly.

the proposed signet change would, however, help the Marks Ranger a lot by allowing max distance between pet.

suggestion:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Beastmaster

1. this trait moves to Master tier.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beastmaster%27s_Might

2. renamed to Beastmaster’s Shield & moves to Grandmaster tier. removes 1 condi from all allies near your pet & grant Aegis in same radius on Signet activation.

this would synergize with SotB, so the Shield would pulse from both the Ranger & the Pet if traited for potential 2 condi removal AoE.

would make Signet play more active & team oriented while boosting Marks survivability. ( the Marks Signet spec would not need to run Renewal at all necessarily )

Arken.3725:

Some changes are decent while others I wouldn’t bother with. For instance, the proposed changes to Sigil of Energy sounds fair. However, reverting say Signet of Restoration back to its original form is most certainly not. If you’re going to revert this skill, i’d say make it so you have to hit your opponent to produce any healing instead of just blindly spamming while retreating.

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I didn’t want to go crazy with the redesigns, I wanted my suggestions to stay as lean as possible (and still ended up with a pretty big list). It’s a fine recommendation. As someone who played ele back then, it wasn’t the signet heal that was the major issue with eles, and I never thought it should have been nerfed in the first place. Not everyone agrees with me on that, though, and that’s fine.

Only if they would start making smart changes like simple list below.

Healing Signet – Heals for to much.

Spirit of Nature – Heals for to much.

Lyssa Rune – Needs a 120 second ICD on 6ths effect.

Energy Sigil – Changed to 30%.

Might – Needs to be 20+ Power 10+ Condition, it’s just way to strong for how easy some builds can stack might when there build isn’t designed to even stack might.

There super simple changes wouldn’t even take an hour to finish.

Elementalist skills :

Armor of Earth - CD reduced to 50s

Arcane Shield - CD reduced to 60s

Mist Form - CD reduced to 50s

Glyph of Storms - CD reduced to 50s

Lightning Flash - add break stun

Signet of Earth - edit Passive : invulnerable for 2 seconds

Signet of Water - edit Passive : Cures a condition every ten seconds, heal yourself every second

Conjure Fiery Greatsword - CD reduced to 150s

all Conjure weapons - no cast time

Fire Grab - CD reduced to 40s

Frost Aura - CD reduced to 30s

Cleansing Wave - CD reduced to 30s

Ride the Lightning - CD reduced to 25

Shocking Aura - CD increased to 30s

Earthquake - CD reduced to 40s

Magnetic Leap - add stun effect

Fire Shield - CD reduced to 30s

Freezing Gust - chill foes at the target location

Gale - reduced CD to 40s

Arcane Brilliance - cast time reduced to 0.25s

Glyph of Lesser Elementals - add a skill to explode lesser elemental (blast)
fire : create a Lava Font
ice : create a Frozen Ground
wind : create a Static Field
earth : create a Unsteady Ground

Glyph of Elementals - add a skill to explode lesser elemental (blast)
fire : create a Lava Font
ice : create a Frozen Ground
wind : create a Static Field
earth : create a Unsteady Ground

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Traits :
One with Fire - edit this trait. When you Summon Conjure or pick it up
Conjure Earth Shield : you gain protection 5s and crippling target area 3s
Conjure Frost Bow : you gain regeneration 5s and chilling target area 3s
Conjure Flame Axe : you gain might 15s and burning target area 3s
Conjure Lightning Hammer : you gain swiftness 5s and blind target area 3s
Conjure Fiery Greatsword : you gain fury and stability 5s and stun target area 1s

Electric Discharge - add CD 5s

Diamond Skin - edit this trait. you will Convert a condition into a boon every 5sec
Bleeding Regeneration
Blind Fury
Burning Regeneration
Chilled Swiftness
Confusion Retaliation
Crippled Swiftness
Fear stability
Immobilized Swiftness
Poison Regeneration
Torment Might
Vulnerability Protection
Weakness Might

Stop, Drop, and Roll - Dodge rolling removes burning and chilled. gain regeneration and vigor 5s each condition you removed by this trait.

Cleansing Wave - Remove 2 condition from you and your allies when attuning to water.

Arcane Precision - chance increased to 25%

Final Shielding - CD reduced to 60s

Arcane Energy - Arcane and signet skills restore endurance 50 when used.

Elemental Surge - Based on your current attunement, arcane skills cause a condition to foes that they hit.
add another effect:
Arcane Brilliance : change to targeted AoE
Arcane Wave : Pull nearby foes into area after 2 sec, fix trigger the effect of Elemental Surge twice bug
Arcane Blast : fire two shot
Arcane Power : add a Life stealing effect
Arcane Shield : gain all boon except stability for 5 sec

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

add more skills into channeled skill
staff - Meteor Shower
scepter - Arc Lightning
dagger - Drake’s Breath
dagger - Cone of Cold
dagger - Churning Earth
healing - Ether Renewal
Glyph of Renewal
Conjure Earth Shield - Stone Sheath
Conjure Earth Shield - Magnetic Shield
Conjure Earth Shield - Fortify
Conjure Frost Bow - Frost Volley
Conjure Frost Bow - Ice Storm
Conjure Frost Bow - Deep Freeze
Conjure Lightning Hammer - Lightning Storm
Conjure Fiery Greatsword - Flame Wave

Holy ele buffs. Yeah, some of those are absurd, and never make this many changes in a single patch.

Improvements are needed yes. I’d like it if instead of putting out random posts, we get some people who are looking to make this game better(even if it results in their profession getting a nerf) and hash out what we believe to be adjustments for the betterment of this game.

Don’t people tend to view all these classes in 1v1 terms?

They want it to be a level playing experience 1v1…but the classes are meant to have group contributions and not necessarily be equal 1v1.

I was a big supporter of moving Deceptive Evasion to the Illusion tree but now we must not do that, Mesmers running around with Illusionary Persona AND Confounding Suggestions would be OP.

Should be alright after they bugfix Confounding Suggestions, which is in my notes (and is coming in the next patch anyway, per devs).