Guild Wars 2

The competitive tier of players in this game is small. The number of builds is huge. There are lots of builds that are 100% viable in top-tier play that we have not SEEN in top tier play yet.

There are an incredibly amount of build options in this game. Your class, weapons, amulet, sigils, runes, traits, heal, utilities, and elite combine to make billions of possibilities. The top tier of players, however, is maybe a couple dozen of each class at best. They can prove that certain builds ARE good, but it’s much too small a group to prove that other builds AREN’T good.

When I say top-tier player I mean someone on a team of other top-tier players. Solo people never really influence the meta.

An issue I do see, though is that people who like to invent their own builds and almost refuse to play a build they didn’t come up with themselves… well these people tend to be.. to put it plainly without judging – people who tend to not stick around on a team for long. Personality conflicts it often seems…. but what do I know lol XD

For example I saw a similar build to this and came up with an idea that I think could be perfectly viable but we never see, if someone took the time to really master it and had a good team surrounding them. If I played it, though, people would rage at me, unless I was on a top team winning with it, then it would become part of the meta…..

Berserker amulet warrior, GS axe/shield, runes of vampirism, sigils of intelligence, energy, force, and doom, 2/0/6/0/4 traited for stances with defy pain, cleansing ire, dogged march, restorative strength, destruction of the empowered, vigorous return. Healing skill is DEFIANT STANCE wut…. yep that’s right. Balanced and berserker stance and endure pain with either Rampage or SoR elite….

This build has HUGE dps bursts, HUGE mobility, and incredible escape. The thing is, you get this guy to 25% and defy pain activates for 5 seconds and gives him vigor. After 5 seconds he dodges and pops endure pain for another 5 sec invuln plus vigor. After 5 seconds he dodges again and can use shield block if he wants more invuln, otherwise he can pop his defiant stance heal, and have another 3.75 sec invulnerability + all dmg is healing + vigor. More dodges. You land some hits? Get him to 10% and he goes into MIST FORM! Have you survived 25+ seconds of invulnerable berserker GS axe/shield warrior? I hope so, because pretty soon all his CDs will be ready again. IMO it’s as scary as any meta build. Like a thief that traded stealth for invulnerability.

That warrior build is just another build with some changes. And you’re missing 2 trait points. If you create a build yourself it is 100% likely it will just be a variation of an older build.

SobeSoul.6910:

That warrior build is just another build with some changes. And you’re missing 2 trait points. If you create a build yourself it is 100% likely it will just be a variation of an older build.

yea but who cares? the point is these builds are not considered meta and I’m saying it’s only because none of the small group of elite players play it, and it’s NOT because it isn’t viable.

the problem is that this build does not bring much team support, especially compared to shoutbow. It lacks the sustain of shoutbow. The sustain you do get is from abilities that either have longer CD’s than shoutbow(defiant stance, endure pain, shield block) or cause you to be unable to apply pressure (mist, block, GS #5). Someone smart would just kite you/bait your blocks/stances until you have burned all of your CD’s then swiftly kill you or force you to bail.

You still have to worry about what you’re trading off with using builds like the warrior build. Things like that don’t have much team support. You can stray away from meta builds, but you cannot stray too far away from roles meta builds encompass.

For instance if the standard comp is Shoutbow, Ele, Engie, 2 DPS. Then that warrior would either be taking up a DPS spot or you’re giving up some team support.

SobeSoul.6910:

You still have to worry about what you’re trading off with using builds like the warrior build. Things like that don’t have much team support. You can stray away from meta builds, but you cannot stray too far away from roles meta builds encompass.

For instance if the standard comp is Shoutbow, Ele, Engie, 2 DPS. Then that warrior would either be taking up a DPS spot or you’re giving up some team support.

so let’s say this warrior build replaced a thief. just as fast. not as sneaky, but can stand for up to 25 seconds tanking on a node invulnerably…. a thief can’t just burst freely like that.

Solstice.1097:

SobeSoul.6910:

That warrior build is just another build with some changes. And you’re missing 2 trait points. If you create a build yourself it is 100% likely it will just be a variation of an older build.

yea but who cares? the point is these builds are not considered meta and I’m saying it’s only because none of the small group of elite players play it, and it’s NOT because it isn’t viable.

Pretty much…

Abjured is going to be running power necro now – no one would say that it is “meta” but since he is a top tier player on a top tier team it will become “meta”

The best players create the “meta” not the solo q heroes – that should be obvious

BUT at the same time the top tier players choose certain builds for a reason – They are usually optimized for a certain ROLE on the team that they are attempting to execute

So yes not every build is viable but there are builds that are viable right now that are not meta and that is simply due to the players not using them

You really think no one has ever tried defiance stance chain invulnerability with double endure pain and shield?…:|

choucs.4507:

You really think no one has ever tried defiance stance chain invulnerability with double endure pain and shield?…:|

i just dont think anyone ever considered it meta, and that people would call it stupid if you tried it because it isn’t meta, and that’s stupid. lol XD

I’m with the OP on this. I think that build could be viable with the proper team support. It would actually probably fit into the comp I’ve been messing with recently where we basically go 3 point defenders/decappers and 2 full burst (although instead of a warrior we run medi thief or s/f ele thief) but the warrior could replace the medi pretty easily if the burst was on par.

The idea being if you have a team properly setting you up for slam dunks, then you should capitalize on it. So if an engie kept setting up CC’s and immobs and making the target blow a couple CD’s and dodges before the war got there, then he could set him up for the burst and given the OP’s description I don’t see how this is much less viable than any other meta comp. The difference being that the current meta is focused on bruisers, but it’s actually moving toward duo-burst comps b/c of WTS.

All in all, I agree with the OP. People tend to only run what the top tier players run, but if the top tier players ran other builds they would still be at the top, but perhaps those other builds would not be as efficient at winning, or perhaps they would expand the horizons of the current meta in pvp.

+1 in support of more creative builds in tpvp. Tired of seeing the same 7 builds in every match.

Solstice.1097:

choucs.4507:

You really think no one has ever tried defiance stance chain invulnerability with double endure pain and shield?…:|

i just dont think anyone ever considered it meta, and that people would call it stupid if you tried it because it isn’t meta, and that’s stupid. lol XD

I agree that people calling it stupid that you tried it because it isn’t meta is stupid but as choucs said, plenty have tried the defiance stance chain/endure pain shield route and it just isn’t really viable. So you can’t take dmg for awhile, you’re also not dishing out damage during mist/blocks or providing support. This is a very selfish build but I’m sure it would work decently in solo q.

Solstice.1097:

SobeSoul.6910:

You still have to worry about what you’re trading off with using builds like the warrior build. Things like that don’t have much team support. You can stray away from meta builds, but you cannot stray too far away from roles meta builds encompass.

For instance if the standard comp is Shoutbow, Ele, Engie, 2 DPS. Then that warrior would either be taking up a DPS spot or you’re giving up some team support.

so let’s say this warrior build replaced a thief. just as fast. not as sneaky, but can stand for up to 25 seconds tanking on a node invulnerably…. a thief can’t just burst freely like that.

Well, ya, teams do it. Look at oRng. They replaced mesmer with mediguard and it worked out for them. My point was more or less that you can use other builds but in doing so you have to balance your team out still. Unless you want some polarized DPS heavy team that probably wouldn’t be too effective overall. Not so much if you’re just running around in solo queue, because without voice comms a lot of team support goes out of the window, so you can use a lot of various builds that aren’t centered around team support.

Hachiman.2470:

Solstice.1097:

choucs.4507:

You really think no one has ever tried defiance stance chain invulnerability with double endure pain and shield?…:|

i just dont think anyone ever considered it meta, and that people would call it stupid if you tried it because it isn’t meta, and that’s stupid. lol XD

I agree that people calling it stupid that you tried it because it isn’t meta is stupid but as choucs said, plenty have tried the defiance stance chain/endure pain shield route and it just isn’t really viable. So you can’t take dmg for awhile, you’re also not dishing out much damage or providing support. This is a very selfish build but I’m sure it would work decently in solo q.

idk thief is a selfish role usually and this would basically be a replacement. thief does have some support in SR but what else really? Warrior hard-rezzing with defiant stance? CLEAVE MORE PLZ!

Solstice.1097:

The competitive tier of players in this game is small. The number of builds is huge. There are lots of builds that are 100% viable in top-tier play that we have not SEEN in top tier play yet.

There are an incredibly amount of build options in this game. Your class, weapons, amulet, sigils, runes, traits, heal, utilities, and elite combine to make billions of possibilities. The top tier of players, however, is maybe a couple dozen of each class at best. They can prove that certain builds ARE good, but it’s much too small a group to prove that other builds AREN’T good.

.

Your first few paragraphs and title make this topic sound like it was touching a hot button issue in the community but then I noticed it was actually all about you from the beginning.

All that potential….. wasted.

Dirame.8521:

Solstice.1097:

The competitive tier of players in this game is small. The number of builds is huge. There are lots of builds that are 100% viable in top-tier play that we have not SEEN in top tier play yet.

There are an incredibly amount of build options in this game. Your class, weapons, amulet, sigils, runes, traits, heal, utilities, and elite combine to make billions of possibilities. The top tier of players, however, is maybe a couple dozen of each class at best. They can prove that certain builds ARE good, but it’s much too small a group to prove that other builds AREN’T good.

.

Your first few paragraphs and title make this topic sound like it was touching a hot button issue in the community but then I noticed it was actually all about you from the beginning.

All that potential….. wasted.

lol wut? i shouldn’t have stated the example was my idea then… i should have just said here is an example like something i’ve seen work. the point did need an example though so you’re just nit-picking.

Well you stated it before, if you replace thief with this then you are losing the mobility. While GS is good mobility, its not close to the mobility of thief, especially after the changes they’ve made to porting. I agree with some of your argument in that more options need to be available but I doubt this type of build would be one that is as viable as current warrior builds. Not to say that other professions can’t have builds that may become or are viable but the example as a replacement for warrior meta fell short.

Hachiman.2470:

Well you stated it before, if you replace thief with this then you are losing the mobility. While GS is good mobility, its not close to the mobility of thief, especially after the changes they’ve made to porting. I agree with some of your argument in that more options need to be available but I doubt this type of build would be one that is as viable as current warrior builds. Not to say that other professions can’t have builds that may become or are viable but the example as a replacement for warrior meta fell short.

It’s situational like pretty much everything else. Certain matchups it might fall a bit short and other matchups it will really shine and kick kitten . The classes that shut down thieves would have trouble against this warrior.

DPS Warrior is actually not a joke. DPS Warr is actually better than Thief/MediGuard/Mesmer when ganking slick shoes Cele Engi or Shoutbows for example.

http://www.twitch.tv/blacktruth009/c/6269321
http://www.twitch.tv/blacktruth009/c/6259903

Warrior is one of the few classes which can completely negate Quickness (Which is still good with the class if played as DPS) trade-off therefore having ridiculous cleave if you know how to land 1/2 casting time stuns and 130 range. Warrior is also one of the few DPSers that can stand on a point for more than a few seconds compared to Thief and Mesmer for example, which means Warrior as a DPS can allow your team to stand off point for a bit and then re-engage.

The problem with DPS Warrior is that it can’t abuse vertical axis teleport so it has no mobility, it doesn’t have better escapes either, and it’s DPS isn’t the most reliable DPS to land to down someone in the first place. But this is balanced by the fact that they can face-tank focus fire as a DPS AND can cleave downed bodies better.

P.S People calling Warrior low skill floor low skill cap just because of shoutbow are stupidly ignorant and has never played chain CC DPS Mace/Shield + Axe/Mace before.

There is some truth to this. People were playing condi survival ranger since before SotF was introduced, but it only became ‘meta’ when ROM played it in a tourney about 6 months ago…

That said, I think the OP is confusing viable builds with roles. The meta only has about 3-4 viable roles at best, and each class only has 2-3 builds that fit into one of those roles.

So the total number of combinations is bigger than what we see, but not that big.

Solstice.1097:

Dirame.8521:

Solstice.1097:

The competitive tier of players in this game is small. The number of builds is huge. There are lots of builds that are 100% viable in top-tier play that we have not SEEN in top tier play yet.

There are an incredibly amount of build options in this game. Your class, weapons, amulet, sigils, runes, traits, heal, utilities, and elite combine to make billions of possibilities. The top tier of players, however, is maybe a couple dozen of each class at best. They can prove that certain builds ARE good, but it’s much too small a group to prove that other builds AREN’T good.

.

Your first few paragraphs and title make this topic sound like it was touching a hot button issue in the community but then I noticed it was actually all about you from the beginning.

All that potential….. wasted.

lol wut? i shouldn’t have stated the example was my idea then… i should have just said here is an example like something i’ve seen work. the point did need an example though so you’re just nit-picking.

I wish I was just nit-picking. But if you are actually being genuine about the whole deal, then cool.

It just felt like this was a “my build works guys, you gotta try it” thread.

Yes rom was playing condi ranger before tarcis played shoutheal in tourney, then he went back to warrior and played shoutheal instead.

The Meta will always be from players in Tournament play. Hybrid Guardian would be meta if Tage ran that instead of a Hammer build. The funny thing is, if that team had any type of ranged classes, Tage wouldn’t have gone hammer.

It’s just the nature of the beast. People want credibility for certain builds… seeing something “work” in tournament play doesn’t mean it’ll work everywhere else but people take it as, “Ok, it can work in high competitive play against that team comp.”

That’s all meta means.

This thread is wrong. Seriously if you think people lack creativity then go play one of your sick unknown specs vs some meta specs and get back to me. All the builds are so finely tuned and truely do totally BROKEN stuff. To be viable you need to do broken stuff.

I have made necro specs with amazing synergy and where everything makes sense. But it gets trashed because the meta builds are just beyond synergy and “decent”. They are OP. Invent a build and then when you fight against slick shoes engi lets see who is better 1v1, who has more downed state cleave, who has more team fight aoe, who has more healing support, who has more ability to spike and 100—→0 someone.

To be viable currently you need to have a broken spec.

Lordrosicky.5813:

This thread is wrong. Seriously if you think people lack creativity then go play one of your sick unknown specs vs some meta specs and get back to me. All the builds are so finely tuned and truely do totally BROKEN stuff. To be viable you need to do broken stuff.

I have made necro specs with amazing synergy and where everything makes sense. But it gets trashed because the meta builds are just beyond synergy and “decent”. They are OP. Invent a build and then when you fight against slick shoes engi lets see who is better 1v1, who has more downed state cleave, who has more team fight aoe, who has more healing support, who has more ability to spike and 100—->0 someone.

To be viable currently you need to have a broken spec.

Not really true.

Celery engies can get roasted by burnguards. Condi rangers can also pwn them as well. Neither are in the meta currently.

Meta builds aren’t the end all be all builds for 1v1ing.

Summary:
Don’t blindly follow builds you see top-players using in tournaments. You should look at why they use them. Often times you’ll see them tweak those builds for solo queue or when facing particular opponents. There are decisions that are made and it is best to understand those decisions and how best to make them rather than simply copying the resulting builds.

The meta is realistically “the most played build due to how easy and effective it is”

Look at shoutbow, the slick shoes utility and 16-20 second gear shield, Elementalists in general other than staff maybe, and Guardian in general specially when oRNG beat abjured with a Hammer Guard.

Certain things will not make it into the “meta” because they are hard to play such as DPS Warrior. Like you will probably get away 1 spamming people with frenzy chop, but that can only get you so far if you’re bad at landing slow stuns and chain CC’ing people from 100-0 anyways.

I think, there exist a general misunderstanding, what “meta build” means. That there are “meta – builds” doesn’t mean, that there arent any good alternatives or that these meta-builds are neccessary op. For example turret engi is an op build, but is not a meta build.

There are several reason, what makes a meta build a meta build. The most important factor you already mentioned, it must be an often played build among teams which battle for the sake of the esport spirit (esl). From a very dominant build you can often derive the meta buils option.
For example: d/d is atm a very dominant build, you even face on a regurlarly bases 2 d/d ele in one team, and it is even imaginable, to have 3 d/d eles in your team (same as hambow back in the older days.).
D/D Ele is a mobile bunker-dd, which can do decent damage when unnoticed or against inexperienced players, but in the most cases he shines in 1 vs 1 attrition fights and more small scale fights. For big scale fights the addition of another cele class (engineer or ele) improves his value exponential.
From this follows, that having something similar to him improves his performence in all aspects of the match (Just from this aspect follows, that the second member of your meta comb is something similar to the d/d cele ele (meaning a sustain d/d with support: cele engi, Offguard, another d/d ele or staff or whatever cele ele (s/f ele doesn’t harmonize well with cele though).
From the dominent presence of d/d – ele it follows that certain builds are supoptimal: all builds who have medium up to big problems with cele Ele. Here can be a difference between top teams and not so good players, since for them more specs might be not viable against d/d-ele (e.g. Mesmer). Because I am myself not a top player I can only assume, that here lies the reason for the preference of the shout bow over the hambow. The shoutbow also fills the role we conluded above that we need it in our meta comb.
the next step for guessing the meta is to look at all the possible speccs, which do well with d/d-ele. Since it has a burst possibility (pretty unique as bunker) it combines well with shatter mesmer/thief/power necro and other burst speccs.
Since d/d-ele neither combines good with condition nor is weak against it, condition classes are not meta.
The last step would be the overall consequences: with the dominance of the d/d ele (remember this is just an example, for the meta it just matters that it is a very popular class in top teams, it has not neccessarly to be because it is op) there is a reasonable shift towards power. This plus there is a natural tendancy in this meta to run several support bunker dps, the bunker guardian gets less value, especially if everyone is mobile on its own accept the bunker guardian. (However I think there is a meta build for bunker guardians too, just that nobody tried yet to adjust the old bunker build to the new meta: less condition removal, more damage).

For example a meta group could be: D/D Ele, Thief, Mesmer, SHout Warrior, Medi Guard.

A meta group among weaker players (not top esl players) could be something like: D/D Ele, Cele Engi, Shout Warrior, Medi Guard, D/D Ele.

BlackTruth.6813:

DPS Warrior is actually not a joke. DPS Warr is actually better than Thief/MediGuard/Mesmer when ganking slick shoes Cele Engi or Shoutbows for example.

http://www.twitch.tv/blacktruth009/c/6269321
http://www.twitch.tv/blacktruth009/c/6259903

Warrior is one of the few classes which can completely negate Quickness (Which is still good with the class if played as DPS) trade-off therefore having ridiculous cleave if you know how to land 1/2 casting time stuns and 130 range. Warrior is also one of the few DPSers that can stand on a point for more than a few seconds compared to Thief and Mesmer for example, which means Warrior as a DPS can allow your team to stand off point for a bit and then re-engage.

The problem with DPS Warrior is that it can’t abuse vertical axis teleport so it has no mobility, it doesn’t have better escapes either, and it’s DPS isn’t the most reliable DPS to land to down someone in the first place. But this is balanced by the fact that they can face-tank focus fire as a DPS AND can cleave downed bodies better.

P.S People calling Warrior low skill floor just because of shoutbow are stupidly ignorant and has never played chain CC DPS Mace/Shield + Axe/Mace before.

Yup that quickness endure pain frenzy axe auto spam is next level kitten man. DONT FORGET DAT RAMPAGE.

I disagree. The build OP described is very easy to kite and easy to beat with conditions. If you are a good player you will take no damage from it.

Also, top players are top players because of the builds they use. Celestial trio (war/engi/ele), and faceroll s/d thief are meta because they are the strongest build, that’s all. I would say turret engineer is there too, but it’s actually counterable so that doesn’t make it viable for top level play.

I also disagree. How many times do we see a top-tier player just…. switch builds to something different? And then they win, and it becomes meta, even though nothing was patched or changed. The build did not become stronger, just more popular. META = popular but not every viable build is going to be popular when there are so many builds and so few top players.

Also top players like to stick to meta builds because teams shift around a lot, and it’s a lot easier to adapt into new teams when your build is familiar already.

The thing is it takes a lot of effort and practice and studying to reach a build’s potential, and very few people do it on their own – most people just copy.

The issue with Spvp is yes the competitive players makeup a small fraction of overall player, but they make up majority of those that actively do Spvp. Thats why the queue’s are all kinds of screwed up and there is no separation between solo and group and after 2 mins it says kitten it and puts everyone in the same pool regardless of MMR.

You’ll go up against the top tier players a lot and they’ll destroy you.

Solstice.1097:

SobeSoul.6910:

That warrior build is just another build with some changes. And you’re missing 2 trait points. If you create a build yourself it is 100% likely it will just be a variation of an older build.

yea but who cares? the point is these builds are not considered meta and I’m saying it’s only because none of the small group of elite players play it, and it’s NOT because it isn’t viable.

it’s not PvE
this is PvP where u can use build who ppl dont use in PvE (bunker, heal support, conditions)
PvE meta is zerk build based for high phisical dps and that is the current meta
on PvP u can use all build (guardian spirits weapon, engy turrets, war condition, ele signet, ecc) and it is just ppl who know how to play that build who make difference
in short meta on PvP there wasn’t any specific
if u see high ranked ppl with a build, we can say that: “they practice that build with team and know what to do to maximize it”

warriors could really use a master tier new trait that reduces stances recharge time by 20% ..

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

warriors could really use a master tier new trait that reduces stances recharge time by 20% ..

No

jportell.2197:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

warriors could really use a master tier new trait that reduces stances recharge time by 20% ..

No

ah hi there jportell, i can see that you are still around here.

and why not?

since berzerker stance will be nerfed (replaced with resistance boon) and stability is already nerfed as well, plus the new revenant profession will be able to strip boons very easily, it only make sense to reduce the recharge time of stances.

plus balanced stance is still not a true stance since it only give boons one shot.

Anet logic:
- If something is good and works well, need to be changed.

I disagree.

There are multiple roles that generally must be filled in order to be successful in GW2 PvP:

• Support
• DPS
• Bruiser

There are also sub categories that include:

• Conditions
• Control
• Speedster

If your build does not excel at any of these categories, it’s probably not viable. Why did we see Shoutbow become a thing? It’s because Guardian support just doesn’t bring as much to the table when D/D Eles and Cele Rifle Engis bring enough boons and healing on their own to where you don’t really need the kind of support that a shout Guard brings.

I can’t think of any other build that brings the amount of condi cleanse, healing, might stacking, and vigor that Shoutbow has.

A S/D teef has the ability to quickly burst down a target, and also retreat if things go bad. MediGuard brings DPS and potentially some support as well depending on your setup. Now, if the port changes actually work, there might be some openings because the mobility aspect of both might be diminished. I know the GS/LB build i use can beat both of those builds 1v1 and I also have comparable speed, in fact if they get the port changes to actually work I’ll probably be faster than most teefs while also not having to retreat as much.

When it comes to bruisers though, you just can’t beat Celestial D/D Eles and Rilfe Engis. They both have decent damage and decent sustain and the damage comes from multiple sources. What makes these builds strong is a mix of multiple problems encompassing anything from traits, sigils, and Cele itself. I don’t mind Cele existing but it should be a master-of-none rather than the good-at-all it currently is. I think on the Engi side (which i am more familiar with than the Ele side) is that with Cele and a traited Tool Kit along with Slick Shoes you have decent regen in addition to the ability to blast heal using both your skills and your teammates in addition to a block that not only has a long duration but also a fairly short CD.

When I play Engi I generally just feel like the complete package. I have perma swiftness and a rifle skill that can act as a way to escape. I have either a low CD stun break that also gives me the ability to knock someone down for several seconds or I have a kit that also has a stun break, and great team support. With EG 1 you can keep any zerk at bay with a lot of Weakness.

In order to balance Engi there would need to be multiple small shaves to several different things. From what i can tell Ele is the same. I don’t want these classes removed from the meta, I just want other classes to have a spot on a team.

In conclusion, the meta is the meta for a reason. Once players discover a build that does a particular role better than any of the alternatives, they’re going to use it till a better option is found. It’s possible that there’s a build out there that does what the current meta does better. If that happens, then players will gravitate towards it. This isn’t about popularity, it just means that a better build was found. Shoutbow is a good example, it existed in theory for a while but it didn’t see much use until other Warrior builds were nerfed and MediGuard was buffed. Right now, the Holy Celestial Trinity does things better than most any other build out there. Where there’s room for change lies in the Zerker Roamer role. There’s also the possibility of discovering a strong counter-meta, but I haven’t seen anything that’s good enough to warrant replacing one of the Trinity.

This is really ranty but the point is that the meta is a real thing that will always develop in a competitive game. Any changes means that something more effective has probably been found. Anyone who takes a game seriously will probably not let their own preferences keep them from running the most effective build. As someone who isn’t super serious, I don’t always run the meta, but I try to at least run something that is good at multiple roles. I’m not going to run Static Discharge Engi because I know for a fact that S/D Teef is just better. However, I may run GS/LB Warrior because it is on about the same level imo.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Once players discover a build that does a particular role better than any of the alternatives, they’re going to use it till a better option is found.

This. All it takes is for one top player to swap out a utility and use it effectively and BAM! it’s now “meta” That’s what I mean – the meta is not a real thing in and of itself, it’s determined by the player’s themselves. Players don’t play builds because they are “meta” – the builds are “meta” because players play them. It’s easy to get that backwards.

What I am really getting at with this topic is if you see someone on your team with a unique build you shouldn’t flame and shame them and get all upset about it. This happens too much. Some of these “unusual” builds will really surprise you but if you just give up from the start or assume the player is bad, then you aren’t even giving them a fair chance to prove their viability (because you aren’t supporting them as a teammate).

The meta is a comfortable place to fall back on, but it isn’t the end-all for viability of builds.

For whole past year, all Anet does is nerf Power damage and buff Condition damage.

Condition Wars 2.

So much for balance and brains.

Tao.5096:

For whole past year, all Anet does is nerf Power damage and buff Condition damage.

Condition Wars 2.

So much for balance and brains.

must have a different view than from where I’m sitting.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

jportell.2197:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

warriors could really use a master tier new trait that reduces stances recharge time by 20% ..

No

ah hi there jportell, i can see that you are still around here.

and why not?

since berzerker stance will be nerfed (replaced with resistance boon) and stability is already nerfed as well, plus the new revenant profession will be able to strip boons very easily, it only make sense to reduce the recharge time of stances.

plus balanced stance is still not a true stance since it only give boons one shot.

sorry, but Mesmers need way more help than warriors to be viable in top tiers, and so does Necro.

Rome.7124:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

jportell.2197:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

warriors could really use a master tier new trait that reduces stances recharge time by 20% ..

No

ah hi there jportell, i can see that you are still around here.

and why not?

since berzerker stance will be nerfed (replaced with resistance boon) and stability is already nerfed as well, plus the new revenant profession will be able to strip boons very easily, it only make sense to reduce the recharge time of stances.

plus balanced stance is still not a true stance since it only give boons one shot.

sorry, but Mesmers need way more help than warriors to be viable in top tiers, and so does Necro.

Mesmers aren’t too bad. What they need is for bunkers to return to the meta. Mesmers are the best anti-bunker IMO, but there are no bunkers right now, so Mesmers aren’t really needed.

Also, they have a little TOO much trouble vs thieves. I think consume plasma should be nerfed. But it’s very rare to see thief vs mesmer where the outcome is based purely on builds – usually the better player wins that fight.

For some reason I read the title just like: “THAT ENGI IS A SPY!”

Solstice.1097:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Once players discover a build that does a particular role better than any of the alternatives, they’re going to use it till a better option is found.

This. All it takes is for one top player to swap out a utility and use it effectively and BAM! it’s now “meta” That’s what I mean – the meta is not a real thing in and of itself, it’s determined by the player’s themselves. Players don’t play builds because they are “meta” – the builds are “meta” because players play them. It’s easy to get that backwards.

What I am really getting at with this topic is if you see someone on your team with a unique build you shouldn’t flame and shame them and get all upset about it. This happens too much. Some of these “unusual” builds will really surprise you but if you just give up from the start or assume the player is bad, then you aren’t even giving them a fair chance to prove their viability (because you aren’t supporting them as a teammate).

The meta is a comfortable place to fall back on, but it isn’t the end-all for viability of builds.

But the majority of the time these “unique” builds are probably weaker than the meta. If someone joins and says “don’t worry gueis my p/d trap teef got dis” you probably know you’re in for a bad game. I wouldn’t complain about a modified Hambow Warrior or a pure condi engi because both of those are solid builds. It’s when people throw crap together “for the lols” and play ranked games is when people get rightfully angry.

META builds are made up by a higher intellectual crew of top tier players that has the brain to theory craft. Your build is not viable. Even with a team build around your build (like mesm/thief), mesmer/thief, are just better. it’s conquest.

Some builds such as Signet of Fury for example is just absolute garbage. You literally crippled your team considering Frenzy is a much better choice or zerker stance or even stomp.

Like some people literally play bad builds that are legitimately bad because they have no idea what the other utilities do. In which case, you may as well say don’t flame “new players” though that is a hard task to accomplish.

Then you get the people from the Warrior forums who think shoutbow is the only viable build yet fails to “improve” further. Which goes back to that point where “meta” just translates into “effective for zero effort” such as shoutbow. This doesn’t only mean the Warrior forums are at fault though, other people are too.

And then you get the “sleeper” builds which people think are troll builds but are actually strong builds for when you are good at the game. The same people who call “sleeper builds” troll are probably too accustomed to see-ing the world as flat even though it’s been proven that the world is round. Probably talentless too because they only play easy mode and make opinions off of that.

TL;DR actually read my abstract.

Chukree.1756:

META builds are made up by a higher intellectual crew of top tier players that has the brain to theory craft. Your build is not viable. Even with a team build around your build (like mesm/thief), mesmer/thief, are just better. it’s conquest.

Lol if I somehow “knew” what the next new meta build will be, and I said it right here right now that X build is viable, the same people would say no it isn’t Y is better.

until a top player used it and then they would all be like “yea it’s meta ofc”

In most games meta is not required.

Actually meta is NEVER required.

Meta just means it performs the best at the current time. Sure you can do ok with build x, but meta build y does much more. Sure a good player can use non meta build x and get somewhere, but how far could you have gotten with meta build y?

there’s distinct differences. Also meta is more revolved around teamplay. Using soloq completely destroys any notion of meta

BlackTruth.6813:

Some builds such as Signet of Fury for example is just absolute garbage. You literally crippled your team considering Frenzy is a much better choice or zerker stance or even stomp.

Like some people literally play bad builds that are legitimately bad because they have no idea what the other utilities do. In which case, you may as well say don’t flame “new players” though that is a hard task to accomplish.

Then you get the people from the Warrior forums who think shoutbow is the only viable build yet fails to “improve” further. Which goes back to that point where “meta” just translates into “effective for zero effort” such as shoutbow. This doesn’t only mean the Warrior forums are at fault though, other people are too.

And then you get the “sleeper” builds which people think are troll builds but are actually strong builds for when you are good at the game. The same people who call “sleeper builds” troll are probably too accustomed to see-ing the world as flat even though it’s been proven that the world is round. Probably talentless too because they only play easy mode and make opinions off of that.

TL;DR actually read my abstract.

I’ve done the same with a condi/power/prec build which can 1v1 and 1v2, but i have no idea if it would work in competitive and team play environment, i have not tested it, but know its gotten me about a 65% win in unraked just testing(which probably means nothing either, cuz soloq)