Guild Wars 2

Disclaimer – This is based on my understanding of the ranked matchmaking system.

Consider these two matchmaking points

1 – A match will be made between players within a similar pip range
2 – These 10 players will be grouped based on their MMR

Because of point 2, there will in effect be an “A Team” and a “B Team” in every match.

The official reasoning for this is so good players will advance through the ladder quickly.

However, if a player loses a large number of games such that his MMR declines below the average for his pip range, he will always be grouped with the “B Team”.

In most games losing matches results in that player facing weaker opponents so he has an even match up. In the current league system there are points where you cannot be matched with weaker opponents (division thresholds etc).

What happens at this point is the player in question always faces a stronger team with a weaker one because his lower MMR. If the range of player skill is significant in a specific pip zone, the gap between the A and B teams will be large on average and will result in constant losses due to the matchmaking system. Every loss will lower this player’s MMR, and the lower MMR will result in even worse matchups, up until they are essentially unwinnable. This is the MMR hole.

I feel this is a fundamental flaw in the system and is contributing the the consistent one sided match ups I see in my progression through the leagues.

I suspect the same, but how to solve it ?

I belive they could only solve it , if they would randomize the 10 ppl they just found with this algorithm .
At least i would be worth a try, can’t get worse that it is now.

Beeing in the same random team over and over again, with the same 4 random ppl that you lose every match 500:<300 isn’t fun.

The games are so often decided before the gates even open, only because of this genius algorithm.

lvis.3824:

I suspect the same, but how to solve it ?

Go back to S1 matchmaking with anti smurfing mechanisms

Your understanding is wrong, because you still remember the S1 matchmaking.

In S1:
- Get 10 players.
- Sort them into teams, trying to balance MMR between the teams. Giving each team a mix of good and bad players.

In Season 2, the matchmaking doesnt do the “Get 10 players” part. Here’s how I read the algorithm:

- Find 5 players with similar MMR to each other, within pip range. Make them into a team. Repeat this step until all the teams are formed.

- Get 2 teams that are within the pip range (as calculated by the highest pip member), and form a match.

So in season 2, its not “Get 10 players and put the best 5 into one team and the worst 5 into the other.”, the system forms teams with similar MMR and pip range, and then forms matches.

So your opposing team could have a higher MMR, equal, or lower. If your MMR is average for your pip range, then your teammates will be average, and you’re most likely to get average opponents too.

The problem comes when your MMR is below average for your division. You’re teammates will also be below average for the division, but your opponents will most likely be average.

In a proper system (at higher divisions in GW2) you’ll lose pips and divisions (but you won’t lose much MMR because you’re facing higher MMR opponents).

This means, eventually you’ll lose divisions until your MMR is once again average for your division. You’ll be matched with the (crappy) players who have average MMR for that lower division, and your (crappy) opponents will also have similar MMR to you.
If you are a rare diamond in the rough & in ELO hell, this means you’re team has 1 better player (you) and probably 4 crappy teammates, versus 5 crappy players. So you’ll win, your MMR will improve, and you can gradually climb out of ELO hell.

The problem with GW2, is that you can’t lose divisions until you get past Ruby. So there are many players stuck on Ruby and below, who have below-average MMR for their division, who can’t go down any further.

This means there’s a pool of players who have below-average MMR for their division, who are often getting matched against teams with average MMR, causing the losing streaks and permanent ELO hell.

The solution is to allow for division loss all the way through the ladder. If you absolutely must have a grindy “training division”, then just leave Amber as it is. But Emerald and Sapphire should have the same rules as the rest of the league.

Rieselle.5079:

Your understanding is wrong, because you still remember the S1 matchmaking.

In S1:
- Get 10 players.
- Sort them into teams, trying to balance MMR between the teams. Giving each team a mix of good and bad players.

In Season 2, the matchmaking doesnt do the “Get 10 players” part. Here’s how I read the algorithm:

- Find 5 players with similar MMR to each other, within pip range. Make them into a team. Repeat this step until all the teams are formed.

- Get 2 teams that are within the pip range (as calculated by the highest pip member), and form a match.

---

So in season 2, its not “Get 10 players and put the best 5 into one team and the worst 5 into the other.”, the system forms teams with similar MMR and pip range, and then forms matches.

So your opposing team could have a higher MMR, equal, or lower. If your MMR is average for your pip range, then your teammates will be average, and you’re most likely to get average opponents too.

The problem comes when your MMR is below average for your division. You’re teammates will also be below average for the division, but your opponents will most likely be average.

In a proper system (at higher divisions in GW2) you’ll lose pips and divisions (but you won’t lose much MMR because you’re facing higher MMR opponents).

This means, eventually you’ll lose divisions until your MMR is once again average for your division.

The problem with GW2, is that you can’t lose divisions until you get past Ruby. So there are many players stuck on Ruby and below, who have below-average MMR for their division, who can’t go down any further.

This means there’s a pool of players who have below-average MMR for their division, who are often getting matched against teams with average MMR, causing the losing streaks.

The solution is to allow for division loss all the way through the ladder. If you absolutely must have a grindy “training division”, then just leave amber as it is. But Emerald and Sapphire should have the same rules as the rest of the league.

Firstly, solid post, I would add tho that you missed out a pretty important element in that when you lose a game your MMR lowers so worse teammates, then repeat.

Ryan.9387:

Disclaimer – This is based on my understanding of the ranked matchmaking system.

Consider these two matchmaking points

1 – A match will be made between players within a similar pip range
2 – These 10 players will be grouped based on their MMR

Because of point 2, there will in effect be an “A Team” and a “B Team” in every match.

The official reasoning for this is so good players will advance through the ladder quickly.

However, if a player loses a large number of games such that his MMR declines below the average for his pip range, he will always be grouped with the “B Team”.

In most games losing matches results in that player facing weaker opponents so he has an even match up. In the current league system there are points where you cannot be matched with weaker opponents (division thresholds etc).

What happens at this point is the player in question always faces a stronger team with a weaker one because his lower MMR. If the range of player skill is significant in a specific pip zone, the gap between the A and B teams will be large on average and will result in constant losses due to the matchmaking system. Every loss will lower this player’s MMR, and the lower MMR will result in even worse matchups, up until they are essentially unwinnable. This is the MMR hole.

I feel this is a fundamental flaw in the system and is contributing the the consistent one sided match ups I see in my progression through the leagues.

Exactly Shadow Shooter.

The system make it so, that the top 30% will have it easier if they SOLOQ than TeamQ the League.

To counter this FLAW they need to help low MMR players to get a way to raise their MMR.

So, after a 3 streak lost, they should put 1 low MMR with 4 high MMR players, so they can carry his MMR a bit.

But it would not be fair.

MMR vs MMR is the only way to let players improve their MMR. Sometime they wins, sometime they loose and the MMR will adapt. Actually, they can’t because they are always put in the B team for that queue time.

Either do it MMR vs MMR (skill based ranking system) or PIPS range vs PIPS range (grind based ranking system).

Doing it like S2 is completely wrong and it almost show that the top 20% paid Anet to make that change for them…

Jourdelune.7456:

Ryan.9387:

Disclaimer – This is based on my understanding of the ranked matchmaking system.

Consider these two matchmaking points

1 – A match will be made between players within a similar pip range
2 – These 10 players will be grouped based on their MMR

Because of point 2, there will in effect be an “A Team” and a “B Team” in every match.

The official reasoning for this is so good players will advance through the ladder quickly.

However, if a player loses a large number of games such that his MMR declines below the average for his pip range, he will always be grouped with the “B Team”.

In most games losing matches results in that player facing weaker opponents so he has an even match up. In the current league system there are points where you cannot be matched with weaker opponents (division thresholds etc).

What happens at this point is the player in question always faces a stronger team with a weaker one because his lower MMR. If the range of player skill is significant in a specific pip zone, the gap between the A and B teams will be large on average and will result in constant losses due to the matchmaking system. Every loss will lower this player’s MMR, and the lower MMR will result in even worse matchups, up until they are essentially unwinnable. This is the MMR hole.

I feel this is a fundamental flaw in the system and is contributing the the consistent one sided match ups I see in my progression through the leagues.

Exactly Shadow Shooter.

The system make it so, that the top 30% will have it easier if they SOLOQ than TeamQ the League.

To counter this FLAW they need to help low MMR players to get a way to raise their MMR.

So, after a 3 streak lost, they should put 1 low MMR with 4 high MMR players, so they can carry his MMR a bit.

But it would not be fair.

MMR vs MMR is the only way to let players improve their MMR. Sometime they wins, sometime they loose and the MMR will adapt. Actually, they can’t because they are always put in the B team for that queue time.

The only way you’ll always be in the B team is if you’re MMR is at the bottom of the barrel for the division/tier/pip-range that you’re in. If your MMR is anywhere close to average for your division/tier/pip-range, then sometimes you’ll be on the B team, and sometimes you’ll be on the A team. If you win more than you lose, then over time your MMR will increase.

The MMR hole happens when you lose even the close matches and the matches you were expected to win. It could also happen if you started the season with terrible MMR, but this just means that you repeatedly lost evenly matched games in Season 1 (which tried to balance the MMRs of both teams for a ~50% winrate).

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

Ryan.9387:

Disclaimer – This is based on my understanding of the ranked matchmaking system.

Consider these two matchmaking points

1 – A match will be made between players within a similar pip range
2 – These 10 players will be grouped based on their MMR

Because of point 2, there will in effect be an “A Team” and a “B Team” in every match.

The official reasoning for this is so good players will advance through the ladder quickly.

However, if a player loses a large number of games such that his MMR declines below the average for his pip range, he will always be grouped with the “B Team”.

In most games losing matches results in that player facing weaker opponents so he has an even match up. In the current league system there are points where you cannot be matched with weaker opponents (division thresholds etc).

What happens at this point is the player in question always faces a stronger team with a weaker one because his lower MMR. If the range of player skill is significant in a specific pip zone, the gap between the A and B teams will be large on average and will result in constant losses due to the matchmaking system. Every loss will lower this player’s MMR, and the lower MMR will result in even worse matchups, up until they are essentially unwinnable. This is the MMR hole.

I feel this is a fundamental flaw in the system and is contributing the the consistent one sided match ups I see in my progression through the leagues.

Exactly Shadow Shooter.

The system make it so, that the top 30% will have it easier if they SOLOQ than TeamQ the League.

To counter this FLAW they need to help low MMR players to get a way to raise their MMR.

So, after a 3 streak lost, they should put 1 low MMR with 4 high MMR players, so they can carry his MMR a bit.

But it would not be fair.

MMR vs MMR is the only way to let players improve their MMR. Sometime they wins, sometime they loose and the MMR will adapt. Actually, they can’t because they are always put in the B team for that queue time.

The only way you’ll always be in the B team is if you’re MMR is at the bottom of the barrel for the division/tier/pip-range that you’re in. If your MMR is anywhere close to average for your division/tier/pip-range, then sometimes you’ll be on the B team, and sometimes you’ll be on the A team. If you win more than you lose, then over time your MMR will increase.

The MMR hole happens when you lose even the close matches and the matches you were expected to win. It could also happen if you started the season with terrible MMR, but this just means that you repeatedly lost evenly matched games in Season 1 (which tried to balance the MMRs of both teams for a ~50% winrate).

That is not true since new players are awarded average MMR from the get go. Average MMR is not meaning much in that context. I used to have a win/loose ratio of around 55-60% before season 2 while playing non-meta and now it’s more like 45% while playing meta. And the more I loose the more are the probability I will loose regardless of my skill. I too often get players that clearly do not have enough experience in the game mode but made it this far.

If I play unranked or in a team of people with my skill level my win ratio goes up immediately. It’s to the point it’s obvious and can’t reasonably be attributed to bad luck. And the deeper you go in the hole the harder it gets to climb out. And the opposite is also true, Why did they wanted to cheese the match making algorithm this way is beyond me.

Two things. First, you are vastly exaggerating how fast your MMR could change significantly. If you are somone who is pretty experienced its going to take a LOT of winning or losing to budge your MMR in a meaningful way positively or negatively. Secondly, I do not believe your MMR takes a hit for losing to players with higher MMR then you have. Basically there is no MMR hole.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

Ryan.9387:

Disclaimer – This is based on my understanding of the ranked matchmaking system.

Consider these two matchmaking points

1 – A match will be made between players within a similar pip range
2 – These 10 players will be grouped based on their MMR

Because of point 2, there will in effect be an “A Team” and a “B Team” in every match.

The official reasoning for this is so good players will advance through the ladder quickly.

However, if a player loses a large number of games such that his MMR declines below the average for his pip range, he will always be grouped with the “B Team”.

In most games losing matches results in that player facing weaker opponents so he has an even match up. In the current league system there are points where you cannot be matched with weaker opponents (division thresholds etc).

What happens at this point is the player in question always faces a stronger team with a weaker one because his lower MMR. If the range of player skill is significant in a specific pip zone, the gap between the A and B teams will be large on average and will result in constant losses due to the matchmaking system. Every loss will lower this player’s MMR, and the lower MMR will result in even worse matchups, up until they are essentially unwinnable. This is the MMR hole.

I feel this is a fundamental flaw in the system and is contributing the the consistent one sided match ups I see in my progression through the leagues.

Exactly Shadow Shooter.

The system make it so, that the top 30% will have it easier if they SOLOQ than TeamQ the League.

To counter this FLAW they need to help low MMR players to get a way to raise their MMR.

So, after a 3 streak lost, they should put 1 low MMR with 4 high MMR players, so they can carry his MMR a bit.

But it would not be fair.

MMR vs MMR is the only way to let players improve their MMR. Sometime they wins, sometime they loose and the MMR will adapt. Actually, they can’t because they are always put in the B team for that queue time.

The only way you’ll always be in the B team is if you’re MMR is at the bottom of the barrel for the division/tier/pip-range that you’re in. If your MMR is anywhere close to average for your division/tier/pip-range, then sometimes you’ll be on the B team, and sometimes you’ll be on the A team. If you win more than you lose, then over time your MMR will increase.

The MMR hole happens when you lose even the close matches and the matches you were expected to win. It could also happen if you started the season with terrible MMR, but this just means that you repeatedly lost evenly matched games in Season 1 (which tried to balance the MMRs of both teams for a ~50% winrate).

That is not true since new players are awarded average MMR from the get go. Average MMR is not meaning much in that context. I used to have a win/loose ratio of around 55-60% before season 2 while playing non-meta and now it’s more like 45% while playing meta. And the more I loose the more are the probability I will loose regardless of my skill. I too often get players that clearly do not have enough experience in the game mode but made it this far.

If I play unranked or in a team of people with my skill level my win ratio goes up immediately. It’s to the point it’s obvious and can’t reasonably be attributed to bad luck. And the deeper you go in the hole the harder it gets to climb out. And the opposite is also true, Why did they wanted to cheese the match making algorithm this way is beyond me.

I think you’re describing what I just explained. You’re currently in a division/tier/pip-range where the average player is better than you. As a result, whichever team you’re on is likely going to lose more often than win. This isn’t bad luck, it’s statistics.

Since you can’t drop divisions/tiers, you’re stuck waiting for the average skill level of your division/tier to drop. This will happen over time because the higher-skilled players will move out of your pip-range (so you won’t see them anymore), and the ones left behind will be similarly situated to you. Once that happens (if it hasn’t already), you should be getting “fair” matchups, which you will need to win to improve your MMR.

As to your experience in Unranked, I believe Unranked tries to match the teams so that both teams have similar MMR. This means that your bad MMR is being balanced out by having better players on your team, who are then able to carry you to victory. So it makes sense that your winrate in Unranked is going to be higher.

brannigan.9831:

Two things. First, you are vastly exaggerating how fast your MMR could change significantly. If you are somone who is pretty experienced its going to take a LOT of winning or losing to budge your MMR in a meaningful way positively or negatively. Secondly, I do not believe your MMR takes a hit for losing to players with higher MMR then you have. Basically there is no MMR hole.

Sorry but I say things as there are. That you believe it or not is going to be up to you. When looking at the numbers of matches played BEFORE season 2 I had more wins than losses (about 55%). No, the situation has reversed (45%). I’m not speaking of MMR here, but merely of the # of wins you can see compared to the # of matches you have played.

ResJudicator.7916:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

Ryan.9387:

Disclaimer – This is based on my understanding of the ranked matchmaking system.

Consider these two matchmaking points

1 – A match will be made between players within a similar pip range
2 – These 10 players will be grouped based on their MMR

Because of point 2, there will in effect be an “A Team” and a “B Team” in every match.

The official reasoning for this is so good players will advance through the ladder quickly.

However, if a player loses a large number of games such that his MMR declines below the average for his pip range, he will always be grouped with the “B Team”.

In most games losing matches results in that player facing weaker opponents so he has an even match up. In the current league system there are points where you cannot be matched with weaker opponents (division thresholds etc).

What happens at this point is the player in question always faces a stronger team with a weaker one because his lower MMR. If the range of player skill is significant in a specific pip zone, the gap between the A and B teams will be large on average and will result in constant losses due to the matchmaking system. Every loss will lower this player’s MMR, and the lower MMR will result in even worse matchups, up until they are essentially unwinnable. This is the MMR hole.

I feel this is a fundamental flaw in the system and is contributing the the consistent one sided match ups I see in my progression through the leagues.

Exactly Shadow Shooter.

The system make it so, that the top 30% will have it easier if they SOLOQ than TeamQ the League.

To counter this FLAW they need to help low MMR players to get a way to raise their MMR.

So, after a 3 streak lost, they should put 1 low MMR with 4 high MMR players, so they can carry his MMR a bit.

But it would not be fair.

MMR vs MMR is the only way to let players improve their MMR. Sometime they wins, sometime they loose and the MMR will adapt. Actually, they can’t because they are always put in the B team for that queue time.

The only way you’ll always be in the B team is if you’re MMR is at the bottom of the barrel for the division/tier/pip-range that you’re in. If your MMR is anywhere close to average for your division/tier/pip-range, then sometimes you’ll be on the B team, and sometimes you’ll be on the A team. If you win more than you lose, then over time your MMR will increase.

The MMR hole happens when you lose even the close matches and the matches you were expected to win. It could also happen if you started the season with terrible MMR, but this just means that you repeatedly lost evenly matched games in Season 1 (which tried to balance the MMRs of both teams for a ~50% winrate).

That is not true since new players are awarded average MMR from the get go. Average MMR is not meaning much in that context. I used to have a win/loose ratio of around 55-60% before season 2 while playing non-meta and now it’s more like 45% while playing meta. And the more I loose the more are the probability I will loose regardless of my skill. I too often get players that clearly do not have enough experience in the game mode but made it this far.

If I play unranked or in a team of people with my skill level my win ratio goes up immediately. It’s to the point it’s obvious and can’t reasonably be attributed to bad luck. And the deeper you go in the hole the harder it gets to climb out. And the opposite is also true, Why did they wanted to cheese the match making algorithm this way is beyond me.

I think you’re describing what I just explained. You’re currently in a division/tier/pip-range where the average player is better than you. As a result, whichever team you’re on is likely going to lose more often than win. This isn’t bad luck, it’s statistics.

Since you can’t drop divisions/tiers, you’re stuck waiting for the average skill level of your division/tier to drop. This will happen over time because the higher-skilled players will move out of your pip-range (so you won’t see them anymore), and the ones left behind will be similarly situated to you. Once that happens (if it hasn’t already), you should be getting “fair” matchups, which you will need to win to improve your MMR.

As to your experience in Unranked, I believe Unranked tries to match the teams so that both teams have similar MMR. This means that your bad MMR is being balanced out by having better players on your team, who are then able to carry you to victory. So it makes sense that your winrate in Unranked is going to be higher.

With all due respect, I must insist on my disagreeing with you and your reasoning. If I was sub average in my division I would most often describe the enemy as stronger than me as the reason we loose and I would not bother posting here since I’d have no problem with better players beating me.

It’s really obvious to anybody looking into several of the matches that the problem has more to do with our team than it has to do with the opponent. I even had opponents that would sometimes pm me after a match to tell me they felt sorry for me.

Your theory of good players eventually leaving is absurd to me since I’ll still be stuck with baddies till the season end anyway no matter what specifically BECAUSE they can’t loose pips before ruby and none of us who are stuck together eternally can get win streaks. And by the time the so called “better players” are gone, several of which I know and have played with, my MMR will have suffered a lot “proving” that I belong in the trash resulting in getting yet more garbage which will likely result in garbage results.

Look, I’m glad you didn’t had to live through this but I’m a bit tired of your kind of ppl that simply refuse to hear what is said to them and insist on overwriting stuff they have no idea of since they were not there and are obviously not on the receiving end of the phenomenon. I get it that you do not want ppl to cheapen your glory, and it’s not my goal, but…

EDIT: I also want to point out that I have proposed SEVERAL times in several threads for you geniuses loud mouths that I’m willing to let ppl supervised by ANET play on my account to see what I have to play with and what you have to carry. I mean, what more can I do?

some possible solutions:
-if you lose by 100 points or less, you dont lose a pip.
-if you lose by 100 points or more, you gain a staggered loss. the second staggered loss will result in a pip. you cannot regain a staggered loss until you win (twice?) again.
-you also gain a staggered loss if one of your team mates d/c’s, one of your team mates is afk for (1/4?) or more of the total match time, if you are teamed with 2 or more of players in a lower division then you, and after (5?) losses.

Stand The Wall.6987:

some possible solutions:
-if you lose by 100 points or less, you dont lose a pip.
-if you lose by 100 points or more, you gain a staggered loss. the second staggered loss will result in a pip. you cannot regain a staggered loss until you win (twice?) again.
-you also gain a staggered loss if one of your team mates d/c’s, one of your team mates is afk for (1/4?) or more of the total match time, if you are teamed with 2 or more of players in a lower division then you, and after (5?) losses.

For me the most obvious solution is to remove any of the so called ladder safe guards. This way, no new/inexperienced players with average and low MMR will end-up in higher divisions with legit rubies while being considered “equal”. If they are low skill they should remain in lower divisions not be guaranteed to reach upper average division (ruby) if they grind for it or are lucky on team draws.

As it is, lower ruby can be hell on Tyria for ppl whose MMR his average or lower. Removing the safe guards would help prevent this cluster kitten.

Making teams randomly within a pip range would also avoid the system cheesing the results favorably or unfavorably. I’m not saying make ppl fight other of their caliber only like past season. I say, random. Let the central limit theorem do it’s job. If you are better and therefore capable of carrying greater weight you will all things being equal climb faster while the less skillful will remain stuck behind. Stop pampering high MMR people while crippling low ones. The ladder will only get more prestige and legitimacy out of this while being fairer.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

Ryan.9387:

Disclaimer – This is based on my understanding of the ranked matchmaking system.

Consider these two matchmaking points

1 – A match will be made between players within a similar pip range
2 – These 10 players will be grouped based on their MMR

Because of point 2, there will in effect be an “A Team” and a “B Team” in every match.

The official reasoning for this is so good players will advance through the ladder quickly.

However, if a player loses a large number of games such that his MMR declines below the average for his pip range, he will always be grouped with the “B Team”.

In most games losing matches results in that player facing weaker opponents so he has an even match up. In the current league system there are points where you cannot be matched with weaker opponents (division thresholds etc).

What happens at this point is the player in question always faces a stronger team with a weaker one because his lower MMR. If the range of player skill is significant in a specific pip zone, the gap between the A and B teams will be large on average and will result in constant losses due to the matchmaking system. Every loss will lower this player’s MMR, and the lower MMR will result in even worse matchups, up until they are essentially unwinnable. This is the MMR hole.

I feel this is a fundamental flaw in the system and is contributing the the consistent one sided match ups I see in my progression through the leagues.

Exactly Shadow Shooter.

The system make it so, that the top 30% will have it easier if they SOLOQ than TeamQ the League.

To counter this FLAW they need to help low MMR players to get a way to raise their MMR.

So, after a 3 streak lost, they should put 1 low MMR with 4 high MMR players, so they can carry his MMR a bit.

But it would not be fair.

MMR vs MMR is the only way to let players improve their MMR. Sometime they wins, sometime they loose and the MMR will adapt. Actually, they can’t because they are always put in the B team for that queue time.

The only way you’ll always be in the B team is if you’re MMR is at the bottom of the barrel for the division/tier/pip-range that you’re in. If your MMR is anywhere close to average for your division/tier/pip-range, then sometimes you’ll be on the B team, and sometimes you’ll be on the A team. If you win more than you lose, then over time your MMR will increase.

The MMR hole happens when you lose even the close matches and the matches you were expected to win. It could also happen if you started the season with terrible MMR, but this just means that you repeatedly lost evenly matched games in Season 1 (which tried to balance the MMRs of both teams for a ~50% winrate).

That is not true since new players are awarded average MMR from the get go. Average MMR is not meaning much in that context. I used to have a win/loose ratio of around 55-60% before season 2 while playing non-meta and now it’s more like 45% while playing meta. And the more I loose the more are the probability I will loose regardless of my skill. I too often get players that clearly do not have enough experience in the game mode but made it this far.

If I play unranked or in a team of people with my skill level my win ratio goes up immediately. It’s to the point it’s obvious and can’t reasonably be attributed to bad luck. And the deeper you go in the hole the harder it gets to climb out. And the opposite is also true, Why did they wanted to cheese the match making algorithm this way is beyond me.

I think you’re describing what I just explained. You’re currently in a division/tier/pip-range where the average player is better than you. As a result, whichever team you’re on is likely going to lose more often than win. This isn’t bad luck, it’s statistics.

Since you can’t drop divisions/tiers, you’re stuck waiting for the average skill level of your division/tier to drop. This will happen over time because the higher-skilled players will move out of your pip-range (so you won’t see them anymore), and the ones left behind will be similarly situated to you. Once that happens (if it hasn’t already), you should be getting “fair” matchups, which you will need to win to improve your MMR.

As to your experience in Unranked, I believe Unranked tries to match the teams so that both teams have similar MMR. This means that your bad MMR is being balanced out by having better players on your team, who are then able to carry you to victory. So it makes sense that your winrate in Unranked is going to be higher.

With all due respect, I must insist on my disagreeing with you and your reasoning. If I was sub average in my division I would most often describe the enemy as stronger than me as the reason we loose and I would not bother posting here since I’d have no problem with better players beating me.

It’s really obvious to anybody looking into several of the matches that the problem has more to do with our team than it has to do with the opponent. I even had opponents that would sometimes pm me after a match to tell me they felt sorry for me.

Your theory of good players eventually leaving is absurd to me since I’ll still be stuck with baddies till the season end anyway no matter what specifically BECAUSE they can’t loose pips before ruby and none of us who are stuck together eternally can get win streaks. And by the time the so called “better players” are gone, several of which I know and have played with, my MMR will have suffered a lot “proving” that I belong in the trash resulting in getting yet more garbage which will likely result in garbage results.

Look, I’m glad you didn’t had to live through this but I’m a bit tired of your kind of ppl that simply refuse to hear what is said to them and insist on overwriting stuff they have no idea of since they were not there and are obviously not on the receiving end of the phenomenon. I get it that you do not want ppl to cheapen your glory, and it’s not my goal, but…

EDIT: I also want to point out that I have proposed SEVERAL times in several threads for you geniuses loud mouths that I’m willing to let ppl supervised by ANET play on my account to see what I have to play with and what you have to carry. I mean, what more can I do?

Helseth actually asked A.net if he could play using your account. A.net said no.

The next best thing is for you to post several videos of your gameplay so people can see what you’re going through. The problem with simply stating that your team is holding you back is that we’ve all seen (and been teamed with) players who think they’re carrying their team when they’re not even fulfilling their roles.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

For me the most obvious solution is to remove any of the so called ladder safe guards. This way, no new/inexperienced players with average and low MMR will end-up in higher divisions with legit rubies while being considered “equal”.

this is a legitimate concern, however none of my solutions deal with that so im not sure why youre trying to argue with me. all of my solutions deal only with repetitive losses, not wins.

ResJudicator.7916:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

Ryan.9387:

Disclaimer – This is based on my understanding of the ranked matchmaking system.

Consider these two matchmaking points

1 – A match will be made between players within a similar pip range
2 – These 10 players will be grouped based on their MMR

Because of point 2, there will in effect be an “A Team” and a “B Team” in every match.

The official reasoning for this is so good players will advance through the ladder quickly.

However, if a player loses a large number of games such that his MMR declines below the average for his pip range, he will always be grouped with the “B Team”.

In most games losing matches results in that player facing weaker opponents so he has an even match up. In the current league system there are points where you cannot be matched with weaker opponents (division thresholds etc).

What happens at this point is the player in question always faces a stronger team with a weaker one because his lower MMR. If the range of player skill is significant in a specific pip zone, the gap between the A and B teams will be large on average and will result in constant losses due to the matchmaking system. Every loss will lower this player’s MMR, and the lower MMR will result in even worse matchups, up until they are essentially unwinnable. This is the MMR hole.

I feel this is a fundamental flaw in the system and is contributing the the consistent one sided match ups I see in my progression through the leagues.

Exactly Shadow Shooter.

The system make it so, that the top 30% will have it easier if they SOLOQ than TeamQ the League.

To counter this FLAW they need to help low MMR players to get a way to raise their MMR.

So, after a 3 streak lost, they should put 1 low MMR with 4 high MMR players, so they can carry his MMR a bit.

But it would not be fair.

MMR vs MMR is the only way to let players improve their MMR. Sometime they wins, sometime they loose and the MMR will adapt. Actually, they can’t because they are always put in the B team for that queue time.

The only way you’ll always be in the B team is if you’re MMR is at the bottom of the barrel for the division/tier/pip-range that you’re in. If your MMR is anywhere close to average for your division/tier/pip-range, then sometimes you’ll be on the B team, and sometimes you’ll be on the A team. If you win more than you lose, then over time your MMR will increase.

The MMR hole happens when you lose even the close matches and the matches you were expected to win. It could also happen if you started the season with terrible MMR, but this just means that you repeatedly lost evenly matched games in Season 1 (which tried to balance the MMRs of both teams for a ~50% winrate).

That is not true since new players are awarded average MMR from the get go. Average MMR is not meaning much in that context. I used to have a win/loose ratio of around 55-60% before season 2 while playing non-meta and now it’s more like 45% while playing meta. And the more I loose the more are the probability I will loose regardless of my skill. I too often get players that clearly do not have enough experience in the game mode but made it this far.

If I play unranked or in a team of people with my skill level my win ratio goes up immediately. It’s to the point it’s obvious and can’t reasonably be attributed to bad luck. And the deeper you go in the hole the harder it gets to climb out. And the opposite is also true, Why did they wanted to cheese the match making algorithm this way is beyond me.

I think you’re describing what I just explained. You’re currently in a division/tier/pip-range where the average player is better than you. As a result, whichever team you’re on is likely going to lose more often than win. This isn’t bad luck, it’s statistics.

Since you can’t drop divisions/tiers, you’re stuck waiting for the average skill level of your division/tier to drop. This will happen over time because the higher-skilled players will move out of your pip-range (so you won’t see them anymore), and the ones left behind will be similarly situated to you. Once that happens (if it hasn’t already), you should be getting “fair” matchups, which you will need to win to improve your MMR.

As to your experience in Unranked, I believe Unranked tries to match the teams so that both teams have similar MMR. This means that your bad MMR is being balanced out by having better players on your team, who are then able to carry you to victory. So it makes sense that your winrate in Unranked is going to be higher.

With all due respect, I must insist on my disagreeing with you and your reasoning. If I was sub average in my division I would most often describe the enemy as stronger than me as the reason we loose and I would not bother posting here since I’d have no problem with better players beating me.

It’s really obvious to anybody looking into several of the matches that the problem has more to do with our team than it has to do with the opponent. I even had opponents that would sometimes pm me after a match to tell me they felt sorry for me.

Your theory of good players eventually leaving is absurd to me since I’ll still be stuck with baddies till the season end anyway no matter what specifically BECAUSE they can’t loose pips before ruby and none of us who are stuck together eternally can get win streaks. And by the time the so called “better players” are gone, several of which I know and have played with, my MMR will have suffered a lot “proving” that I belong in the trash resulting in getting yet more garbage which will likely result in garbage results.

Look, I’m glad you didn’t had to live through this but I’m a bit tired of your kind of ppl that simply refuse to hear what is said to them and insist on overwriting stuff they have no idea of since they were not there and are obviously not on the receiving end of the phenomenon. I get it that you do not want ppl to cheapen your glory, and it’s not my goal, but…

EDIT: I also want to point out that I have proposed SEVERAL times in several threads for you geniuses loud mouths that I’m willing to let ppl supervised by ANET play on my account to see what I have to play with and what you have to carry. I mean, what more can I do?

Helseth actually asked A.net if he could play using your account. A.net said no.

The next best thing is for you to post several videos of your gameplay so people can see what you’re going through. The problem with simply stating that your team is holding you back is that we’ve all seen (and been teamed with) players who think they’re carrying their team when they’re not even fulfilling their roles.

He asked for MY account? I’m giving all legal go and agreement ANET need for this to happen.

As for me posting vid of my matches I’m not outright against even if I’m not rigged for it ATM. However, let’s be honest a second here, I trust your fairness on the matter as much as I would Donald Trump. If I post only one vid I’ll be accused of cherry picking, which is legit, and if I posts several at which point will it be enough to make you see that as imperfect as I can be my teammate are often the problem, while the enemy isn’t really stronger than me at all.

It is all good and fair to say you have heard many say they were carrying when they were not but it doesn’t make the facts and arguments posted as to what was problematic go away. Your attitude is just to dismiss all that you don’t like without proofs and put everything back on the players. It is all I see from your kind so far. And that despite players reaching higher level clearly admitting something was suspicious but on the other side of the same medal.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

For me the most obvious solution is to remove any of the so called ladder safe guards. This way, no new/inexperienced players with average and low MMR will end-up in higher divisions with legit rubies while being considered “equal”.

this is a legitimate concern, however none of my solutions deal with that so im not sure why youre trying to argue with me. all of my solutions deal only with repetitive losses, not wins.

I wasn’t trying to argue. I merely sought to add more.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

Ryan.9387:

Disclaimer – This is based on my understanding of the ranked matchmaking system.

Consider these two matchmaking points

1 – A match will be made between players within a similar pip range
2 – These 10 players will be grouped based on their MMR

Because of point 2, there will in effect be an “A Team” and a “B Team” in every match.

The official reasoning for this is so good players will advance through the ladder quickly.

However, if a player loses a large number of games such that his MMR declines below the average for his pip range, he will always be grouped with the “B Team”.

In most games losing matches results in that player facing weaker opponents so he has an even match up. In the current league system there are points where you cannot be matched with weaker opponents (division thresholds etc).

What happens at this point is the player in question always faces a stronger team with a weaker one because his lower MMR. If the range of player skill is significant in a specific pip zone, the gap between the A and B teams will be large on average and will result in constant losses due to the matchmaking system. Every loss will lower this player’s MMR, and the lower MMR will result in even worse matchups, up until they are essentially unwinnable. This is the MMR hole.

I feel this is a fundamental flaw in the system and is contributing the the consistent one sided match ups I see in my progression through the leagues.

Exactly Shadow Shooter.

The system make it so, that the top 30% will have it easier if they SOLOQ than TeamQ the League.

To counter this FLAW they need to help low MMR players to get a way to raise their MMR.

So, after a 3 streak lost, they should put 1 low MMR with 4 high MMR players, so they can carry his MMR a bit.

But it would not be fair.

MMR vs MMR is the only way to let players improve their MMR. Sometime they wins, sometime they loose and the MMR will adapt. Actually, they can’t because they are always put in the B team for that queue time.

The only way you’ll always be in the B team is if you’re MMR is at the bottom of the barrel for the division/tier/pip-range that you’re in. If your MMR is anywhere close to average for your division/tier/pip-range, then sometimes you’ll be on the B team, and sometimes you’ll be on the A team. If you win more than you lose, then over time your MMR will increase.

The MMR hole happens when you lose even the close matches and the matches you were expected to win. It could also happen if you started the season with terrible MMR, but this just means that you repeatedly lost evenly matched games in Season 1 (which tried to balance the MMRs of both teams for a ~50% winrate).

That is not true since new players are awarded average MMR from the get go. Average MMR is not meaning much in that context. I used to have a win/loose ratio of around 55-60% before season 2 while playing non-meta and now it’s more like 45% while playing meta. And the more I loose the more are the probability I will loose regardless of my skill. I too often get players that clearly do not have enough experience in the game mode but made it this far.

If I play unranked or in a team of people with my skill level my win ratio goes up immediately. It’s to the point it’s obvious and can’t reasonably be attributed to bad luck. And the deeper you go in the hole the harder it gets to climb out. And the opposite is also true, Why did they wanted to cheese the match making algorithm this way is beyond me.

I think you’re describing what I just explained. You’re currently in a division/tier/pip-range where the average player is better than you. As a result, whichever team you’re on is likely going to lose more often than win. This isn’t bad luck, it’s statistics.

Since you can’t drop divisions/tiers, you’re stuck waiting for the average skill level of your division/tier to drop. This will happen over time because the higher-skilled players will move out of your pip-range (so you won’t see them anymore), and the ones left behind will be similarly situated to you. Once that happens (if it hasn’t already), you should be getting “fair” matchups, which you will need to win to improve your MMR.

As to your experience in Unranked, I believe Unranked tries to match the teams so that both teams have similar MMR. This means that your bad MMR is being balanced out by having better players on your team, who are then able to carry you to victory. So it makes sense that your winrate in Unranked is going to be higher.

With all due respect, I must insist on my disagreeing with you and your reasoning. If I was sub average in my division I would most often describe the enemy as stronger than me as the reason we loose and I would not bother posting here since I’d have no problem with better players beating me.

It’s really obvious to anybody looking into several of the matches that the problem has more to do with our team than it has to do with the opponent. I even had opponents that would sometimes pm me after a match to tell me they felt sorry for me.

Your theory of good players eventually leaving is absurd to me since I’ll still be stuck with baddies till the season end anyway no matter what specifically BECAUSE they can’t loose pips before ruby and none of us who are stuck together eternally can get win streaks. And by the time the so called “better players” are gone, several of which I know and have played with, my MMR will have suffered a lot “proving” that I belong in the trash resulting in getting yet more garbage which will likely result in garbage results.

Look, I’m glad you didn’t had to live through this but I’m a bit tired of your kind of ppl that simply refuse to hear what is said to them and insist on overwriting stuff they have no idea of since they were not there and are obviously not on the receiving end of the phenomenon. I get it that you do not want ppl to cheapen your glory, and it’s not my goal, but…

EDIT: I also want to point out that I have proposed SEVERAL times in several threads for you geniuses loud mouths that I’m willing to let ppl supervised by ANET play on my account to see what I have to play with and what you have to carry. I mean, what more can I do?

Helseth actually asked A.net if he could play using your account. A.net said no.

The next best thing is for you to post several videos of your gameplay so people can see what you’re going through. The problem with simply stating that your team is holding you back is that we’ve all seen (and been teamed with) players who think they’re carrying their team when they’re not even fulfilling their roles.

He asked for MY account? I’m giving all legal go and agreement ANET need for this to happen.

As for me posting vid of my matches I’m not outright against even if I’m not rigged for it ATM. However, let’s be honest a second here, I trust your fairness on the matter as much as I would Donald Trump. If I post only one vid I’ll be accused of cherry picking, which is legit, and if I posts several at which point will it be enough to make you see that as imperfect as I can be my teammate are often the problem, while the enemy isn’t really stronger than me at all.

It is all good and fair to say you have heard many say they were carrying when they were not but it doesn’t make the facts and arguments posted as to what was problematic go away. Your attitude is just to dismiss all that you don’t like without proofs and put everything back on the players. It is all I see from your kind so far. And that despite players reaching higher level clearly admitting something was suspicious but on the other side of the same medal.

That’s the thing — you haven’t posted any facts. Facts would be videos that you post, which other people could then view and evaluate. Refusing to provide videos because you think they won’t convince the other side is like saying “I have super secret evidence proving I’m right but I won’t share it with anyone.”

Besides, you shouldn’t have to worry about whether I’m fair because my opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The point of posting the videos is (presumably) to show the Devs what you’re going through. What I think of the videos is not going to affect how the devs change things for Season 3.

ResJudicator.7916:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

ResJudicator.7916:

Jourdelune.7456:

Ryan.9387:

Disclaimer – This is based on my understanding of the ranked matchmaking system.

Consider these two matchmaking points

1 – A match will be made between players within a similar pip range
2 – These 10 players will be grouped based on their MMR

Because of point 2, there will in effect be an “A Team” and a “B Team” in every match.

The official reasoning for this is so good players will advance through the ladder quickly.

However, if a player loses a large number of games such that his MMR declines below the average for his pip range, he will always be grouped with the “B Team”.

In most games losing matches results in that player facing weaker opponents so he has an even match up. In the current league system there are points where you cannot be matched with weaker opponents (division thresholds etc).

What happens at this point is the player in question always faces a stronger team with a weaker one because his lower MMR. If the range of player skill is significant in a specific pip zone, the gap between the A and B teams will be large on average and will result in constant losses due to the matchmaking system. Every loss will lower this player’s MMR, and the lower MMR will result in even worse matchups, up until they are essentially unwinnable. This is the MMR hole.

I feel this is a fundamental flaw in the system and is contributing the the consistent one sided match ups I see in my progression through the leagues.

Exactly Shadow Shooter.

The system make it so, that the top 30% will have it easier if they SOLOQ than TeamQ the League.

To counter this FLAW they need to help low MMR players to get a way to raise their MMR.

So, after a 3 streak lost, they should put 1 low MMR with 4 high MMR players, so they can carry his MMR a bit.

But it would not be fair.

MMR vs MMR is the only way to let players improve their MMR. Sometime they wins, sometime they loose and the MMR will adapt. Actually, they can’t because they are always put in the B team for that queue time.

The only way you’ll always be in the B team is if you’re MMR is at the bottom of the barrel for the division/tier/pip-range that you’re in. If your MMR is anywhere close to average for your division/tier/pip-range, then sometimes you’ll be on the B team, and sometimes you’ll be on the A team. If you win more than you lose, then over time your MMR will increase.

The MMR hole happens when you lose even the close matches and the matches you were expected to win. It could also happen if you started the season with terrible MMR, but this just means that you repeatedly lost evenly matched games in Season 1 (which tried to balance the MMRs of both teams for a ~50% winrate).

That is not true since new players are awarded average MMR from the get go. Average MMR is not meaning much in that context. I used to have a win/loose ratio of around 55-60% before season 2 while playing non-meta and now it’s more like 45% while playing meta. And the more I loose the more are the probability I will loose regardless of my skill. I too often get players that clearly do not have enough experience in the game mode but made it this far.

If I play unranked or in a team of people with my skill level my win ratio goes up immediately. It’s to the point it’s obvious and can’t reasonably be attributed to bad luck. And the deeper you go in the hole the harder it gets to climb out. And the opposite is also true, Why did they wanted to cheese the match making algorithm this way is beyond me.

I think you’re describing what I just explained. You’re currently in a division/tier/pip-range where the average player is better than you. As a result, whichever team you’re on is likely going to lose more often than win. This isn’t bad luck, it’s statistics.

Since you can’t drop divisions/tiers, you’re stuck waiting for the average skill level of your division/tier to drop. This will happen over time because the higher-skilled players will move out of your pip-range (so you won’t see them anymore), and the ones left behind will be similarly situated to you. Once that happens (if it hasn’t already), you should be getting “fair” matchups, which you will need to win to improve your MMR.

As to your experience in Unranked, I believe Unranked tries to match the teams so that both teams have similar MMR. This means that your bad MMR is being balanced out by having better players on your team, who are then able to carry you to victory. So it makes sense that your winrate in Unranked is going to be higher.

With all due respect, I must insist on my disagreeing with you and your reasoning. If I was sub average in my division I would most often describe the enemy as stronger than me as the reason we loose and I would not bother posting here since I’d have no problem with better players beating me.

It’s really obvious to anybody looking into several of the matches that the problem has more to do with our team than it has to do with the opponent. I even had opponents that would sometimes pm me after a match to tell me they felt sorry for me.

Your theory of good players eventually leaving is absurd to me since I’ll still be stuck with baddies till the season end anyway no matter what specifically BECAUSE they can’t loose pips before ruby and none of us who are stuck together eternally can get win streaks. And by the time the so called “better players” are gone, several of which I know and have played with, my MMR will have suffered a lot “proving” that I belong in the trash resulting in getting yet more garbage which will likely result in garbage results.

Look, I’m glad you didn’t had to live through this but I’m a bit tired of your kind of ppl that simply refuse to hear what is said to them and insist on overwriting stuff they have no idea of since they were not there and are obviously not on the receiving end of the phenomenon. I get it that you do not want ppl to cheapen your glory, and it’s not my goal, but…

EDIT: I also want to point out that I have proposed SEVERAL times in several threads for you geniuses loud mouths that I’m willing to let ppl supervised by ANET play on my account to see what I have to play with and what you have to carry. I mean, what more can I do?

Helseth actually asked A.net if he could play using your account. A.net said no.

The next best thing is for you to post several videos of your gameplay so people can see what you’re going through. The problem with simply stating that your team is holding you back is that we’ve all seen (and been teamed with) players who think they’re carrying their team when they’re not even fulfilling their roles.

He asked for MY account? I’m giving all legal go and agreement ANET need for this to happen.

As for me posting vid of my matches I’m not outright against even if I’m not rigged for it ATM. However, let’s be honest a second here, I trust your fairness on the matter as much as I would Donald Trump. If I post only one vid I’ll be accused of cherry picking, which is legit, and if I posts several at which point will it be enough to make you see that as imperfect as I can be my teammate are often the problem, while the enemy isn’t really stronger than me at all.

It is all good and fair to say you have heard many say they were carrying when they were not but it doesn’t make the facts and arguments posted as to what was problematic go away. Your attitude is just to dismiss all that you don’t like without proofs and put everything back on the players. It is all I see from your kind so far. And that despite players reaching higher level clearly admitting something was suspicious but on the other side of the same medal.

That’s the thing — you haven’t posted any facts. Facts would be videos that you post, which other people could then view and evaluate. Refusing to provide videos because you think they won’t convince the other side is like saying “I have super secret evidence proving I’m right but I won’t share it with anyone.”

Besides, you shouldn’t have to worry about whether I’m fair because my opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The point of posting the videos is (presumably) to show the Devs what you’re going through. What I think of the videos is not going to affect how the devs change things for Season 3.

There is nothing “super secret” about the matter at this point. I think I can say I’m not alone to have witnessed what I described. I’m willing to let my account be played so the only different variable in the equation would be the player.

My reluctance to download, install, and record several games I play in the context of this forum has nothing to do with me wanting to keep anything secret or I wouldn’t be willing to let others play my account. However, I’ve seen enough such threads to know how this is going to be twisted and that is something nobody can hardly hold against me.

Anyway, if it’s for ANET dev then anytime they want they can have access to my account to test it. I’m willing and will sign whatever consent they want. I kinda have my dose of people arguing in bad faith is my problem. If you can’t see where there is a danger in the current system for people of average and low MMR knowing what is public knowledge it has more to do with you not wanting to than me making stuff up.

The idea for match making this season actually works as intended if you begin play on day one of a season opening, keep playing about 10 matches a day and don’t skip any days of play. However, the idea for match making this season is broken and completely dysfunctional concerning players who begin play late in the season or who aren’t able to play often.

Let’s say you were Legendary division during season 1 or even Diamond. If you had logged in and played all day during the first day of season 2 and each day after, you would have been able to ride the rofl stomp match making wave while all of the other players of your MMR were still with you in the early divisions “this means the match making would be working as intended and will place you in stronger teams to quickly put you back where you should be”. But if you were unable to log in for the first two weeks of season 2 or only able to run a couple matches day, you will eventually find yourself stuck in the Ruby division with only Ruby level MMRs to que with, while the others of your actual MMR have transcended back to Diamond/Legendary. This means that you will be in contestation vs. these many possible situational problems that Ruby level MMRs make, that Legendary players do not, as you try to climb out of the Ruby hell: “the first division where you can lose tiers due to bad matches”

• Rolling teams of: Warriors, DHs, Thieves, Mesmers vs. a better meta stack.
• Players refusing to swap or plainly not knowing how to play more than one class.
• Players insisting on playing that Warrior because they are working on achievements.
• Players making detrimental errors in rotations that throw a match instantly.
• Players that simply refuse to listen to any common sense what so ever.

These situational problems heavily decide match outcomes. No matter how good of a player you are or how hard you can carry, no one can carry a team of: Warrior, DH, Thief, Mesmer against: Rev, Rev, Tempest, Reaper or a team of players who refuse to listen to common sense /t chat calls.

The above Ruby hell situations are something that high MMR players who began play on day one, rarely had to experience if they experienced at all, as they rode the MMR wave with others of their high MMR. This means that they end up back in late Diamond/early Legendary, where players are much more reasonable and match outcomes end up being much more skill based than “situational factor based” because players who are good, that try hard, are willing to swap and generally play for wins before achievements/dailies.

The point being is: that a good player who began his run a bit late in season 2 is heavily punished with this current match making. He should eventually be able to climb back to his old positioning but it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than if he would have been able to ride the MMR wave from day 1. A good player who began play on day 1 and kept up in progression with others of his actual MMR will not nearly as often be expected to carry a match of bad players as the good player who began play late, who is now stuck in Ruby hell. The good Ruby player will be expected to carry teams of intermediates almost each and every match, through their bad decisions in builds played and apathy towards communication, something that we all know is exceedingly difficult to do in GW2. Most of the time he won’t be able to do it and his match outcomes will not be decided by his ability to carry a team or the actual skill of his team mates in general, no his match outcomes will be like a gamble, majorly decided upon which team has the better comp. This will ultimately damage his MMR and keep good players in bad places.

• This is where the real MMR hole exists. It is the Ruby division specifically.
• The real answer? We need to completely remove the pip division system and return to an actual MMR system again and do it right next time.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

The idea for match making this season actually works as intended if you begin play on day one of a season opening, keep playing about 10 matches a day and don’t skip any days of play. However, the idea for match making this season is broken and completely dysfunctional concerning players who begin play late in the season or who aren’t able to play often.

Let’s say you were Legendary division during season 1 or even Diamond. If you had logged in and played all day during the first day of season 2 and each day after, you would have been able to ride the rofl stomp match making wave while all of the other players of your MMR were still with you in the early divisions “this means the match making would be working as intended and will place you in stronger teams to quickly put you back where you should be”. But if you were unable to log in for the first two weeks of season 2 or only able to run a couple matches day, you will eventually find yourself stuck in the Ruby division with only Ruby level MMRs to que with, while the others of your actual MMR have transcended back to Diamond/Legendary. This means that you will be in contestation vs. these many possible situational problems that Ruby level MMRs make, that Legendary players do not, as you try to climb out of the Ruby hell: “the first division where you can lose tiers due to bad matches”

• Rolling teams of: Warriors, DHs, Thieves, Mesmers vs. a better meta stack.
• Players refusing to swap or plainly not knowing how to play more than one class.
• Players insisting on playing that Warrior because they are working on achievements.
• Players making detrimental errors in rotations that throw a match instantly.
• Players that simply refuse to listen to any common sense what so ever.

These situational problems heavily decide match outcomes. No matter how good of a player you are or how hard you can carry, no one can carry a team of: Warrior, DH, Thief, Mesmer against: Rev, Rev, Tempest, Reaper or a team of players who refuse to listen to common sense /t chat calls.

The above Ruby hell situations are something that high MMR players who began play on day one, rarely had to experience if they experienced at all, as they rode the MMR wave with others of their high MMR. This means that they end up back in late Diamond/early Legendary, where players are much more reasonable and match outcomes end up being much more skill based than “situational factor based” because players who are good, that try hard, are willing to swap and generally play for wins before achievements/dailies.

The point being is: that a good player who began his run a bit late in season 2 is heavily punished with this current match making. He should eventually be able to climb back to his old positioning but it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than if he would have been able to ride the MMR wave from day 1. A good player who began play on day 1 and kept up in progression with others of his actual MMR will not nearly as often be expected to carry a match of bad players as the good player who began play late, who is now stuck in Ruby hell. The good Ruby player will be expected to carry teams of intermediates almost each and every match, through their bad decisions in builds played and apathy towards communication, something that we all know is exceedingly difficult to do in GW2. Most of the time he won’t be able to do it and his match outcomes will not be decided by his ability to carry a team or the actual skill of his team mates in general, no his match outcomes will be like a gamble, majorly decided upon which team has the better comp. This will ultimately damage his MMR and keep good players in bad places.

• This is where the real MMR hole exists. It is the Ruby division specifically.
• The real answer? We need to completely remove the pip division system and return to an actual MMR system again and do it right next time.

You’ve nailed it and I am your perfect example.
Games played: 4400+
Season one: Didn’t play at all based on feedback. Spend time with new elites across 8 professions.
Season 2: Started late and only play 3-4 games every 5 days.

I white washed opponents from amber all the way to last tier sapphire. At that stage I moved away from the game and only got in a scarce handful of matches over 7-8 days. I was often surrounded by similar players. legendary/champion status..got swap to alts easily, would change runes sigils accordingly.

However after my some absence I am now teamed with players who refuse to communicate, constantly push far and lose..and I have even had 4 players stand on home at the start of the match.

So why has my team mates so dramatically dropped?

I have not been playing, yet they have grinded to be within pip range of me. I am no Pvp god, or even dazzling..but I don’t do unwise plays. So now they are within pip range of me, but their MMR is worse than mine. Hence my MMR attracts better teams for me to play and them to struggle with.

The best solution is that emerald and sapphire can lose pips/tiers and divisions.

This way grinders won’t eventually push themselves into divisions and tiers where they are no longer competitive and just canon fodder for opponents.

How can we even know what effect a win or loss will have on the MMR because no one will show us what the actual MMR numbers are. At the end of season 1 there was talk about showing how the teams were matched and reasoning at the end of a match.

That was scrapped in favor of secrecy and powerlevelling high MMR players.

Read patch notes about how the MMR algorithm works.

I’d also like to add that the MMR algorithm itself doesn’t possess anything wrong in it’s programming. The problems all stem from a lack of programming. The MMR algorithm does not identify current meta build aspects of the game. Thus it does not consider the difference in power/effectiveness between one build and another. This is what is largely responsible for bad match making and why matches often feel “like a gamble” concerning who and what you get in your team. It may be placing similar MMRs with similar MMRs but it has no recognition within it’s programming to see that it is putting Team A “Warrior, Warrior, DH, Thief, Mesmer” against Team B “Revenant, Revenant, Tempest, Reaper, Scrapper”.

The MMR algorithm is working but it needs to be able to sight in more factors such as the above example if they ever want it to do a truly good job of adjucating match placements. That and division should have nothing to do with match placement as grinding rewards division, not skill. Actual MMR should have everything to do with match placement.

Whatever is done for season 3 I want to see this:

Hard Reset Everyone’s MMR at the beginning of the season.

Dirtyrascal.1023:

Whatever is done for season 3 I want to see this:

Hard Reset Everyone’s MMR at the beginning of the season.

Specially if they insist on making teams based on MMR. I won’t even consider trying S3 if they do not reset it and still make teams the way they do it now. Not going to waste my time.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Read patch notes about how the MMR algorithm works.

I’d also like to add that the MMR algorithm itself doesn’t possess anything wrong in it’s programming. The problems all stem from a lack of programming. The MMR algorithm does not identify current meta build aspects of the game. Thus it does not consider the difference in power/effectiveness between one build and another. This is what is largely responsible for bad match making and why matches often feel “like a gamble” concerning who and what you get in your team. It may be placing similar MMRs with similar MMRs but it has no recognition within it’s programming to see that it is putting Team A “Warrior, Warrior, DH, Thief, Mesmer” against Team B “Revenant, Revenant, Tempest, Reaper, Scrapper”.

The MMR algorithm is working but it needs to be able to sight in more factors such as the above example if they ever want it to do a truly good job of adjucating match placements. That and division should have nothing to do with match placement as grinding rewards division, not skill. Actual MMR should have everything to do with match placement.

You see no problem with new players given average MMR?

New players are not always “new players”. In fact, many new accounts are alt accounts purchased by veteran high MMR players. If new accounts all started with the lowest possible MMR, do you have any idea how easy it would be to exploit the league leaderboards with a team of 5 alt accounts being played by veteran players, who are ripping through their first 30 games played with wins that look like 500-0, 500-20? They’d get placed in the top 10 without ever needing to face a team that was anywhere even near their actual skill level.

Due to the reality of such match manipulation, placing new accounts with an average MMR is the only way to go.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

New players are not always “new players”. In fact, many new accounts are alt accounts purchased by veteran high MMR players. If new accounts all started with the lowest possible MMR, do you have any idea how easy it would be to exploit the league leaderboards with a team of 5 alt accounts being played by veteran players, who are ripping through their first 30 games played with wins that look like 500-0, 500-20? They’d get placed in the top 10 without ever needing to face a team that was anywhere even near their actual skill level.

Due to the reality of such match manipulation, placing new accounts with an average MMR is the only way to kitten

then reset mmr for everyone at the beginning of a season.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

New players are not always “new players”. In fact, many new accounts are alt accounts purchased by veteran high MMR players. If new accounts all started with the lowest possible MMR, do you have any idea how easy it would be to exploit the league leaderboards with a team of 5 alt accounts being played by veteran players, who are ripping through their first 30 games played with wins that look like 500-0, 500-20? They’d get placed in the top 10 without ever needing to face a team that was anywhere even near their actual skill level.

Due to the reality of such match manipulation, placing new accounts with an average MMR is the only way to go.

I understand why they do it. I however see a big problem when its really new players that are considered equal to you and you have 1k+ matches more than them.