The Plight of the Condi Engi

The Plight of the Condi Engi

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Posted by: ellesee.8297

ellesee.8297

Yes I know this is long but what else am I going to do during 20 minute queue times? Slay golems? #golemlivesmatter

Before specializations the only viable Engis were explosives Engis because the only offensive weapons the Engineer had were its explosive kits. Explosives, well only grenades really, performed well in both condi and power builds because the Explosives line was tailored to both condi and power builds. However the specialization system converted the Explosives tree into a pure power based line. With the only worthwhile offensive weapons being the explosive kits and the huge condi nerf to the Explosives tree, condi Engis took a huge hit that it still to this day has not recovered from.

Most of the condi traits were relegated to the Firearms line. That’s perfectly fine except, again, the only offensive weapons the Engineer has are its explosive kits and the explosives line is just absolutely useless for a condi build. The Firearms line beefs up the pistols, which is nice, and the Flamethrower, except the Flamethrower is a pretty terrible primary offensive weapon and Juggernaut doesn’t do anything to address this issue and it competes with Incendiary Powder anyway. Its main attacks, the 1 and 2, are purely power based. There’s just no consistent condition damage and even in a power build, the kit is quite trash. Its only strength in a condition build is the toolbelt, which has such an obscene cooldown in comparison to other powerful burst attacks like the Revenant Precision Strike which does some crazy amount of damage with just a 5 second cooldown, or a Guardian’s Whirling Wrath which has a 10 second cooldown, or even a Reaper’s Executioner’s Scythe/Soul Spiral combo which is 30 seconds. The Flamethrower’s Incendiary Ammo has a whopping 50 second cooldown for a skill where you need to land multiple hits to reach its full effect and can be negated with any kind of condition clear, all of which have a shorter cooldown than Incendiary Ammo. And so with the introduction of the specialization system, the only viable offensive kits were stripped away from the condi Engi and we did not receive any compensation.

So with the explosive kits and the Flamethrower out of commission, what does the condi Engi really have in its offensive loadout? Flame Turret? Rocket Boots? Turrets and Gadgets are some of the worst abilities in the game. Slick Shoes, the only viable gadget, was nerfed to oblivion. Turrets were nerfed to oblivion. The part that really gets me is that this type of action is the norm for Anet dating back over a decade to the Guild Wars 1 days.

Smiter’s Boon from GW1 patch notes: “We recognize that the changes to this skill will essentially remove it from play. In the future, we may consider whether or not there is an incarnation of this skill that would be viable but balanced. For now, we do not expect it to see serious use.”
It remained useless until GW1 died. Please balance these skills instead of just removing them from the game but I suppose that’s a topic for another thread.

The introduction of Scrapper did not help condi Engis at all. The tree is essentially useless for a condi build. It doesn’t introduce a a worthwhile condi weapon and the tree is too defensive when a condi Engi’s issue is its lack of offensive power. Bulwark Gyro would probably be the only gyro worth taking in a condi build if you take Scrapper but that’s only because the Bulwark Gyro and Rise are just overpowered. 50% damage reduction that stacks with protection… who came up with that idea?

Anyway so how do we fix these issues? Well for starters I think the Bomb Kit should be converted into a power kit to reflect its new power based trait line. The Bomb Kit is a heavy conditions kit but what do you take in the adept tier of the explosives line that would benefit a condi bomb build? Grenadier? Useless. Fall damage trait? Very useless. +5% damage? Useless. Do you not take the explosives line and lose the amazing fuse timer reduction? The vulnerability as a cover condi? It just doesn’t work. I’d increase the power damage of Fire Bomb by a hefty amount. Fire Bomb would pulse power damage each tick instead of burning (essentially a melee range Lava Font) and Concussion Bomb should apply a 1/4 second daze instead of confusion. And I’d remove the cooldown on Evasive Powder Keg for good measure. It’s not as if Engineers are loaded with dodges like Thieves are (and by the way Thieves have no cooldown on their on dodge trait Uncatchable). Engineer Vigor has been nerfed to oblivion and Thermobaric Detonation is one of the biggest jokes of a grandmaster trait in the entire game so at least that would get a buff. Nobody would use it still but meh. Baby steps.

I believe Flamethrower should be converted entirely into a condition kit to reflect its trait line or at least a hybrid kit with a condi focus. I think the burst burning should be toned down a lot and have the kit apply moderate, more consistent burn pressure. I think there should be fewer hits in the cone auto attack to prevent you from taking even more damage than you dish out against retal. Flame Jet’s cone mechanic should be reworked so that if you are fighting someone who’s maybe 2 feet higher than you on a ramp, it would actually hit them instead of shooting into the ground. Flame Blast should apply 1 stack of burning and detonating Flame Blast should apply 2 stacks of burning and the power damage it deals should be toned down. Incendiary Ammo should apply 2 stacks of burning on your next two attacks with a 30 second cooldown.

The game needs more build diversity and the Engineer is no exception. Having a worthwhile condi build would help that end. That’s it friends. Thanks for reading.

PS: Yes, part of this is because I am salty that I spent all that time crafting HOPE and never get to use it.

#1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
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(edited by ellesee.8297)

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Posted by: Ranael.6423

Ranael.6423

Really long post, I must admit I don’t fully agree, but maybe I may have not fully understood…

About explosives The line will be totally useless for condi when shrapnel will be gone. But for now, the rapid application of bleed through grenade+shrapnel makes the kit and the trait a really good condi combo. There is a basic 20% CD reduction on bombs which are supposed to be the melee condi kit. The only issue here is shrapnel in fact because it favors grenade for bleed/cripple application, making the kit mandatory in pretty much every situation. The trait should be either 50 % for every explosion skill (meaning not counting every single grenade) or 100 % with a 3-5 sec ICD. On top of this, pistol AA should be an explosion. Of course, as being melee, bombs could see some love like Rev mace if shrapnel would not be changed. Melee condi should logically be higher than ranged condi in term of damage….

Flamethrower has never been a condi kit but rather something more hybrid, with cc, blind, flaming zone…. something that is never perfect but always useful. Sure Napalm is pretty strong for non mobile target (aka Raid) but that is the only real condi damage. In comparison to IA, Rocket kick is better. I’m not saying this kit should remain the same, but if condi were raised, it would loose a lot of control not not become OP… unless you make it the next Espec weapon and in that case it’s OK to be OP.

Scrapper and condi Yes, you are right, there is few to win by being scrapper and using condi. Well there is one poison field on the purge gyro and applied force can be useful but that’s pretty much it. On the other side, condi specs are always a bit more defensive(unless you are Berserker) and Scrapper adds so much defence that giving some condi option would have been crazy. But still it is a bit sad.

Turrets and gadgets Yes they are not on par with the rest, turret should apply more condi or be put on steroid for support, but I tend to prefer option one since they are now so fragile. Gadget are generally more on the defence side (escape, cc, blind immunity) and their dedicated trait is not well tuned I think. But generally if a utility is not a kit, it will have issue be really useful, just because kits are much more versatile than any utility. You forgot Elixirs, but one could talk hours about Elixir R (and maybe C).

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Posted by: Razor.9872

Razor.9872

You can use Shredder gyro in combo with Purge gyro’s poison field for tons of poison bolts.

Edit: especially when placed right above a stationary target

NSPride <3

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Posted by: Sins.4782

Sins.4782

The biggest hit to condi engi with the explosives/firearms split was the loss of accelerent-packed turrets imo. With offhand pistol being mandatory for damage you no longer have a good way to keep people off of you, at best you’ll have air blast’s glitchy conal knockback for defensive CC and that’s it. Not that APT would help all that much now anyways, seeing as they nerfed healing turret’s cast time (which of course hurt core engi a lot more than scrapper, which has consistent stability uptime).

I’ve always wanted to see Flamethrower as more of a hybrid oriented option, preferably with some cover conditions like torment or cripple added to detonate flame blast, air blast, and smoke vent. The #1 is still preventing it from being good at damaging condi application on its own though, and I kind of want to see the cast time and number of hits scaled down, and the burning application scaled down to a lesser extent to make it more reliable.

Weirdly enough bomb kit can actually work in a power role right now, thanks to scrapper’s broken defenses giving you enough staying power in teamfights to see the damage actually make a difference. It’s probably still not optimal though, seeing as it competes directly with blast gyro, which provides more sustain & stability as well as a stunbreak and better decap potential. Big ol’ bomb into glue bomb is still hilariously fun in teamfights on small points though.

Explosions definitely does need an overhaul. The adept tier is a joke, the ICD on explosive powder keg/thermobaric is a joke, and siege rounds feels almost as kitten mandatory for mortar use as the old grenadier did for nades. Not that the new grenadier is all that much better anyway. Ditching the falling damage trait and glass cannon, or merging them into minor traits, and then giving us 2 proper adept choices would be a good start, as well as getting rid of the ridiculous ICDs on dodge bombs.

Something definitely needs to be done with our offhand options as well. The new blowtorch when traited is 100% mandatory for condi builds, and the vast majority of the damage on pistol/pistol is in that one single skill, and that needs to change. That combined with hammer being the superior defensive option means shield never sees use, which is pretty sad (I really want to use my flameseeker prophecies). They still haven’t fixed the shield trait to apply its protection after the skill finishes either, which is where it’s needed, not during the kitten block. If that gets changed, pistol damage distribution gets fixed, and hammer gets the nerfs it deserves, shield might see the light of day again. Or I might just be dreaming.

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

You can use Shredder gyro in combo with Purge gyro’s poison field for tons of poison bolts.

Edit: especially when placed right above a stationary target

sounds like a great way to get a big fat target on your head from people who know that you are suicidal by taking both of those utilities at the same time.

JQ: Rikkity
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Posted by: ellesee.8297

ellesee.8297

Taking two utility slots for one combo that doesn’t even do a lot of damage isn’t a sound strategy. If you were to use Shredder Gyro, the obvious choice would be to use it on FT’s Napalm field for burning. However since the only way to get a decent amount of burning is to have the target stand literally on top of the fire field and whirling for the duration, and it is impossible for you to place the napalm, then the shredder, then swap to pistols to Glue Shot and hope to have your target still on the whirling, it’s just not even worth mentioning. Absolutely useless.

Taking explosives is not good for condi builds anymore. First there is no master tier condi trait for a grenade build so you’re not getting full value out of the trait line. Second, condi builds need Firearms so you’d be running two offensive trait lines effectively rendering you squish as fudge! Your last tree would have to be Alchemy. Every single Engineer build is pigeonholed into Alchemy if you hope to last more than 5 seconds against anyone. It is the only tree with any form of condi removal and is the tree that beefs up all your viable abilities that actually remove condis: Elixir Gun, Mortar, Elixir C and other elixirs. The necessity for Alchemy also hurts build diversity but that’s a topic for another thread.

#1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
#1 Frandliest person NA!
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(edited by ellesee.8297)

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Posted by: ellesee.8297

ellesee.8297

Plz condi Engi needs sum luv.

#1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!
#1 Frandliest person NA!
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Posted by: Shaogin.2679

Shaogin.2679

I don’t know, according to most here on the forums, it seems condi builds are brainless, lazy builds that can be played while afk. While of course, power builds require extreme skill and timing and coordination, and are clearly the only builds that should exist in sPvP.

But yeah, I’m all for Flamethrower being a condi-dedicated kit. I hate how all our kits have power and condi attacks mixed in to them. I mean having a hybrid kit or two is cool and all, but every single one of them, geez.

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