Guild Wars 2

In my opinion, the SPVP “game modes,” if you want to call them that, are good in theory. For experienced players, there’s ranked. For intermediate players, there’s unranked. And for newer players, there’s practice. This system, in theory, allows players to play with others who fall into roughly the same skill categories that they do. This is good; it’s not all that fun for anyone if players of vastly different skill levels play against one another.

There are some problems in this area, such as newbie players joining ranked (and so costing their team a match) or highly skilled veteran players joining practice (and mowing down all the newbies who are just trying to learn the game). Some are jerks, while others legitimately made mistakes. It happens. And there’s no way to handle the trolls.

No, my biggest problem with practice is the spectating and team balance, and how they work together.

I recently got Champion Paragon and decided to move onto a different class that I have little experience in PVP with. So, I started playing in practice to “train” until I was good enough for unranked. The plan, then, was to further “train” in unranked until I was ready for ranked. Pretty straightforward.

However, there are a large percentage of players in practice who aren’t really there to play; they’re there to AFK, yank dailies and milk their reward tracks as quickly as possible before calling it quits for the day.

Because practice is fairly unstructured, there is no matchmaking; players are free to join an ongoing game and then pick a team. That’s one of the beauties of practice; new players can play constantly. However, because of this the teams are rarely even.

I hardly ever see 5v5 games. Games usually start as 3v3 or 4v3, sometimes working their way up to 5v4. If the teams are balanced at the start, players will spectate until one team has a clear advantage, then join that team. Either way, eventually one team will have a one player advantage over the other.

While it’s not impossible to win a 3v4 or a 4v5, it’s certainly difficult. And considering there’s no penalty in practice for leaving a match part way through, ragequitting is common. In my past 20-some matches, I have not once not seen a player on the losing team quit prematurely.

So here’s how it plays out: you have an unbalanced (3v4 or 4v5) match. The smaller team starts losing. Spectating players don’t join the smaller losing team. Eventually, one member of the losing team ragequits, bringing the teams to an even more unbalanced 2v4 or 3v5. This causes the game’s auto-balance to kick in, forcing one player from the larger team to go to the smaller team. Now that the teams have been forcibly balanced, a spectating player quickly grabs the now-open spot on the winning team.

The problems are:

-Auto-balance doesn’t ultimately end up balancing teams
-The bigger team wins
-AFK spectators can swoop in and grab a victory they didn’t deserve by intentionally not joining the smaller team and waiting until the larger team is forcibly downsized

This is frustrating regardless of which team you’re on. If you’re on the losing team, then you’ve spent all match playing down a player. Eventually, one of your own ragequits, forcing auto-balance and giving you a new player, which doesn’t end up mattering since one of the spectators just grabs the spot on the winning team anyway. Plus, now you have a teammate who doesn’t really want to be there getting all worked up over his team’s lack of skill. (Reminder: this is practice)

On the flip side, your team is winning, and eventually an unbalance is triggered. Every player is forced to volunteer to go to the losing team or else risk losing their “win” status. So suddenly I’m on the losing team, playing against my former teammates, and some spectator quickly grabs my spot to capitalize on all my hard work by grabbing an easy victory he didn’t deserve. And now I’m playing numbers down.

Of course there are other issues with practice and the free selection of teams (such as teams of 4 meta rangers against hashup teams of a guardian, an elementalist and an unskilled necro), but it’s the lurking players who want rewards without effort that bother me the most.

I don’t know an actual solution for this problem, or if there even can be one, but I figured I’d see if anyone else shares my frustration over this.

A few possible solutions would be to:
- Prevent “match spectators” from joining a game after the clock reaches 1min in the game, but do not prevent people coming from outside the game to join randomly,

- Force people to join randomly when they come from spectator (i.e. they cannot chose their side after the game has started),

- Generally, force people to join the lowest team

At least one of these must be easy to do.

To be honest, I feel that Hotjoin/Practice should be used for practice insofar only as to get familiar with the build’s skills, cooldowns and rotations. Finding a “proper” match in Hotjoin is all but impossible. Not only do you have Spectator Wars, as you mentioned, but even veteran players tend to play in ways they would not normally do in Unranked/Ranked, such as double capping, zerging etc. You’re better off playing Unranked for true practice in Conquest PvP.

Now, if we want to help fix the problem of Spectator Wars, here’s my suggestion:

If you pick “Random Team” when you join a match, you get a special buff that DOUBLES the rewards at the end of the match (capped at the winner’s normal reward). This means that if you picked a random team, and your team ended up losing, you’d still get the same rewards as if you’d lucked out onto the winning team anyway. This has the following benefits:

1. There is no incentive to hop teams. You’d get the same reward staying on your random original team as you would switching to the winning team. This discourages “Autobalance Wars”, where the person who gets autobalanced instantly quits or goes back into Spectate.

2. Because rewards are calculated based on the length of time someone is in the match, it encourages people to join the match at once instead of watching until it becomes clear which team is superior. This discourages waiting in Spectate and should thus help solve the issue of 4v5.

These changes means it’s most profitable to instantly hit “Random Team” the moment a match starts, and then see it out to the end, win or lose.

The important bit is to incentivise people to join random/losing teams. Simply forcing players to join the losing team will not work, for the following reasons:

1. If players cannot choose their team in Hotjoin, then these players would either immediately quit when they see they are on a losing team (resulting in the losing team still being understrength), or just AFK/do juuuust enough to avoid getting kicked. (Which I think would be an even worse feeling than being outnumbered. I’d rather be fighting valiantly in a 3v4, rather than having a 5v5 and knowing that 2 of my team mates are just sitting in base or running into the wall.)

2. If you then prevent these players from quitting on demand, making Hotjoin basically like Unranked, then all they will do is pile into Unranked (or even Ranked). After all, why play Hotjoin when you can do the exact same thing in Unranked for even more rewards, even if you lose? And then you’ll have hordes of “baddies”, AFKers and Daily hunters clogging up Unranked/Ranked and just making things miserable for the dedicated PvP’ers there.

I have a much simpler solution:

Remove dailies and track rewards from custom arenas.

Again, all that would do is push the Daily hunters/reward track grinders into Unranked/Ranked. What then? It’s not like you can kick them out; players have a right to play PvP, no matter how bad they are. You’re then stuck with bitter, angry PvP’ers who say these people shouldn’t be in Unranked/Ranked and dragging their matches down, and bitter, angry PvE’ers who say it’s ANet’s fault for taking away the place they could farm this stuff without bothering the PvP’ers and/or locking stuff behind RNG in PvE to the point where doing PvP is the only way to overcome it. Toxicity levels go up, verbal abuse reports probably also go up, and nobody’s happy.

Zaxares.5419:

Again, all that would do is push the Daily hunters/reward track grinders into Unranked/Ranked. What then? It’s not like you can kick them out; players have a right to play PvP, no matter how bad they are. You’re then stuck with bitter, angry PvP’ers who say these people shouldn’t be in Unranked/Ranked and dragging their matches down, and bitter, angry PvE’ers who say it’s ANet’s fault for taking away the place they could farm this stuff without bothering the PvP’ers and/or locking stuff behind RNG in PvE to the point where doing PvP is the only way to overcome it. Toxicity levels go up, verbal abuse reports probably also go up, and nobody’s happy.

It’s not about how bad the PvE’ers are it’s about how bad custom arenas are. If any of the Dev’s actually took the time to spend an hour or two looking at the matches there they would see that the PvE’ers don’t actually play very much, they spend the majority of the time sitting in the queue waiting for their chance to join when autobalance kicks in and they can get into the team with the most players and the huge lead – they wouldn’t be able to do that in unranked.

No, but I’m saying that the natural evolution of that would be players that join Unranked/Ranked matches and then just half-kitten it until they finally get into a match where their team is good enough to carry them. Players have always gravitated to whatever route gets them to their goal with the least amount of effort.

That’s why my suggestion was to change it so that in Hotjoin, if you choose to join Random, it doesn’t matter which team you join; you always end up “winning”. That would take away any incentive to swap teams or wait in Spectate.

I think we all agree on what the problem is – unfortunately those in charge of the game don’t seem to see it as a problem at all.

I completely agree that players will take the path of least resistance to their goals and as an aside (and an example of how broken/ignored custom arenas are) for some time now, the easiest way to register a ‘win’ in customs is to wait for an autobalance to occur and volunteer. It doesn’t matter what side you are on, if you click the volunteer button, you get the win reward and the volunteer bonus – win or lose. If however you are on the ‘winning’ team when an autobalance occurs and instead of volunteering you get kicked to the other team (which goes on to lose) you get nothing.

Someone needs to realize that custom arenas are where the vast majority of players are experiencing PvP and that sorting them out so that players are having a fair and enjoyable experience ultimately benefits everyone, as more of them are likely to actually start ‘playing’, learn and become better players.

Actually, you’re mistaken about the Autobalance thing. If you are the player to get autobalanced, you will automatically get a win credit + the winning team’s bonus, regardless of whether or not you volunteered. (I think a lot of players do not realise this, hence why they quit or go into Spectate after getting Autobalanced. They shouldn’t. It’s a pure win-win situation for you if you get autobalanced, unless you absolutely hate being on the “losing” team regardless.)

In contrast, volunteering for Autobalance will give you the 25 bonus rank points at the end of the match, but unless you were actually the person who got transferred over, you are not automatically entitled to the winner’s bonus at the end.

For example, say that Blue team is leading 100 – 50. There are 4 people on Blue team, 3 people on Red. One player ragequits from Red, leaving it 4-2.

Both Player A and Player B on Blue volunteer for Autobalance. Player A volunteered first and gets transferred over. Both Player A and Player B will get the 25 Autobalance bonus rank points at the end of the match.

Now, if Blue continues to lead and ends up winning, Player A will get the full winner’s payout because he got autobalanced. (Player B also gets the full payout because he was still on Blue, which won.)

BUT… If Red made a comeback and ended up winning (I’ve seen this happen many times, especially if the person who got autobalanced was actually the skilled player that was carrying the winning team), Player A would get the full payout because he’s on the winning team (AND was autobalanced), but Player B, still on Blue, only gets the loser’s payout because he wasn’t actually autobalanced over, despite getting the 25 rank point bonus.

Practice Mode might as well be renamed “Sabotage Mode”.

At the beginning of a match, players will join either team. As soon as a team begins losing, players immediately leave that team. This causes auto-balance to trigger, and players now in spectate either volunteer to join the losing team (for a guaranteed win), or wait for someone to get switched to take their place on the winning team.

Most players aren’t in practice mode to play. They’re in practice mode to win. And when players want to win, it doesn’t matter how they do it, so long as they do it.

In most of my matches in Practice Mode, not only do players leave their team constantly to trigger auto-balance, but once they’ve been switched, they refuse to play; after all, they’ve already won no matter the outcome.

Rules should be changed in standard Practice Mode servers. I see three options:

• Remove rewards. Practice is inconsequential. Whether you win or lose doesn’t matter, so long as you’ve learned from your experience.
  • Pro: Players are no longer able to abuse Practice Mode to get “free” rewards.
  • Con: These players are most likely to swarm Unranked and Ranked Arena instead.

• Normalize rewards. Winning or losing gives the same reward.
  • Pro: Players no longer have a reason to stack in the winning team.
  • Con: More players going AFK as soon as they have 5 points.

• Bring back personal rewards. The amount of points you get is directly related to your score.
  • Pro: Encourages players to do their best. Even if a team isn’t doing well, a player in that team still has a chance to get a relatively good reward depending on personal performance.
  • Con: Personal score would require a lot of revision and balancing to support all classes & builds, maps and game types.

The third is my favorite. Players have a tendency of making the game as miserable as they possibly can for others if it means personal gain for them. This isn’t something that can be overlooked.

I don’t have a complete solution, but I would suggest one change to alleviate a LOT of the problems.

Just change the “Profession Winner” daily to “Profession Participater”. As long as you play the whole match you get credit, win or lose. If you drop out to spectate even for a second mid-match, you don’t get it. If you don’t join the match within the first minute, you don’t get it.

Zaxares.5419:

Actually, you’re mistaken about the Autobalance thing. If you are the player to get autobalanced, you will automatically get a win credit + the winning team’s bonus, regardless of whether or not you volunteered. (I think a lot of players do not realise this, hence why they quit or go into Spectate after getting Autobalanced. They shouldn’t. It’s a pure win-win situation for you if you get autobalanced, unless you absolutely hate being on the “losing” team regardless.)

In contrast, volunteering for Autobalance will give you the 25 bonus rank points at the end of the match, but unless you were actually the person who got transferred over, you are not automatically entitled to the winner’s bonus at the end.

For example, say that Blue team is leading 100 – 50. There are 4 people on Blue team, 3 people on Red. One player ragequits from Red, leaving it 4-2.

Both Player A and Player B on Blue volunteer for Autobalance. Player A volunteered first and gets transferred over. Both Player A and Player B will get the 25 Autobalance bonus rank points at the end of the match.

Now, if Blue continues to lead and ends up winning, Player A will get the full winner’s payout because he got autobalanced. (Player B also gets the full payout because he was still on Blue, which won.)

BUT… If Red made a comeback and ended up winning (I’ve seen this happen many times, especially if the person who got autobalanced was actually the skilled player that was carrying the winning team), Player A would get the full payout because he’s on the winning team (AND was autobalanced), but Player B, still on Blue, only gets the loser’s payout because he wasn’t actually autobalanced over, despite getting the 25 rank point bonus.

Sorry to have to disagree – I assume that this is how it is supposed to work but this hasn’t been the case since the patch in December.

On numerous occasions recently, I have been autobalanced out to the losing team (after forgetting to press the volunteer button) and it does not count towards the daily ‘class win’. If you volunteer however, regardless of what team you are on – you get the class win.

At the moment you can be on the team with 2 players V 4 when autobalance occurs and if you volunteer to join your own losing team you get the win credit regardless of the end result. Please do go try and you will see I am correct.

I have no idea whether this is intentional or not.

Tom Gore.4035:

I don’t have a complete solution, but I would suggest one change to alleviate a LOT of the problems.

Just change the “Profession Winner” daily to “Profession Participater”. As long as you play the whole match you get credit, win or lose. If you drop out to spectate even for a second mid-match, you don’t get it. If you don’t join the match within the first minute, you don’t get it.

A very sensible idea. Also if rank points are going to be awarded then the win bonus needs to be removed.

You need to realize there is a LARGE amount of people participating in “pvp” who actually have no interest in PvP

These are the same players who go on champ trains and karma trains – They are interested in one thing and one thing only EASY REWARDS

It is a necessary evil – let them play with each other in practice mode

Narkodx.1472:

You need to realize there is a LARGE amount of people participating in “pvp” who actually have no interest in PvP

These are the same players who go on champ trains and karma trains – They are interested in one thing and one thing only EASY REWARDS

It is a necessary evil – let them play with each other in practice mode

I Agree – however that LARGE amount of people probably accounts for around 80% – 90% of the PvP Playerbase and they are participating solely in Custom arenas to get their EASY daily Rewards.

The problem is that what they get to ‘play’ is not an enjoyable balanced or fair PvP experience that might encourage them to come back learn, and there bye increase the VERY SMALL overall active PvP playerbase.

Why is PvP being developed from the top down? All the resources and efforts put into balance and matchmaking are being done for those VERY SMALL number of players taking part in unranked and ranked matches. Is it any wonder that the PvP playerbase is so small when the entry point for most players is being totally ignored and is a complete mess?

Instead of trying to endlessly tweak formulas to create fair matches for the very few, A little thought should be given to fixing the mode that the MANY play.

Daroon.1736:

Narkodx.1472:

You need to realize there is a LARGE amount of people participating in “pvp” who actually have no interest in PvP

These are the same players who go on champ trains and karma trains – They are interested in one thing and one thing only EASY REWARDS

It is a necessary evil – let them play with each other in practice mode

I Agree – however that LARGE amount of people probably accounts for around 80% – 90% of the PvP Playerbase and they are participating solely in Custom arenas to get their EASY daily Rewards.

The problem is that what they get to ‘play’ is not an enjoyable balanced or fair PvP experience that might encourage them to come back learn, and there bye increase the VERY SMALL overall active PvP playerbase.

Why is PvP being developed from the top down? All the resources and efforts put into balance and matchmaking are being done for those VERY SMALL number of players taking part in unranked and ranked matches. Is it any wonder that the PvP playerbase is so small when the entry point for most players is being totally ignored and is a complete mess?

Instead of trying to endlessly tweak formulas to create fair matches for the very few, A little thought should be given to fixing the mode that the MANY play.

It is definitely not 80 or 90% in custom arenas compared to unranked/ranked – in fact most of them probably play under 5 matches and go back to the karma train in EotM

These players are not interested in having fair matches – That is why they are in custom arenas playing auto-balance wars – getting easy rewards

Let them enjoy each others toxic company – I have no interest in improving their experience when they have no interest in actually PvPing

I would beg to differ.

In the absence of any ‘official’ figures, I would stick by my estimate that the total number of matches completed in any 24 hour period is around 80% custom arenas 15% unranked and 5% Ranked.

On your second point – Any player new to PvP is going to start in custom arenas, so their chances of finding a game that might actually encourage them to participate further, are very slim.

Aside from the fact that all they are likely to experience is the ‘autobalance wars’ you correctly describe – where are the tutorials? why isn’t there at least some effort being made to direct players into matches against opponents of similar experience and skill?

IMHO, All of the problems in unranked and Ranked would be alleviated if efforts were made to build larger playerbase.

Daroon.1736:

Sorry to have to disagree – I assume that this is how it is supposed to work but this hasn’t been the case since the patch in December.

On numerous occasions recently, I have been autobalanced out to the losing team (after forgetting to press the volunteer button) and it does not count towards the daily ‘class win’. If you volunteer however, regardless of what team you are on – you get the class win.

At the moment you can be on the team with 2 players V 4 when autobalance occurs and if you volunteer to join your own losing team you get the win credit regardless of the end result. Please do go try and you will see I am correct.

I have no idea whether this is intentional or not.

Hmm… I’ll have to test this sometime then. The version I described is the way it used to work. It’s possible that with the change to Dailies something got broken with the way Autobalance worked. (I wouldn’t have noticed any change since I ALWAYS volunteer for Autobalance, then stick on the losing team till its over.)

Although if players can volunteer to join their own losing team, I don’t necessarily see that as a bad thing if it encourages those players to stay, rather than quitting and generating more autobalance chaos.

I completely agree that anything that stops players quitting matches is a good thing but curiously enough a game earlier didn’t award me a class win after I thought I had volunteered from the 2v4 losing team so perhaps it has been fixed.

What would be nice would be some comment by a Dev on their take on the state of Customs and whether they intend to do anything about it – Sadly though, despite a few being quite active in the pvp forum – they only seem willing to participate in discussions about matchmaking formulas for un-ranked and ranked or upcoming balance changes.

Narkodx.1472:

You need to realize there is a LARGE amount of people participating in “pvp” who actually have no interest in PvP

These are the same players who go on champ trains and karma trains – They are interested in one thing and one thing only EASY REWARDS

It is a necessary evil – let them play with each other in practice mode

My idea above would in most cases restrict this “reward train” to exactly one game, without the need of team juggling to cheat yourself a “win”. Lots of frustration could be avoided for everyone if they didn’t need to win to get their daily.

Only other solution I can see to this is to go back to how it was and remove any and all PvE related rewards from PvP forever. Unfortunately that would practically kill the game mode short of the small and tenacious competitive crowd. Good or bad? Depends on who you ask, I would say.