Guild Wars 2

Hiya!

Been loving PvP and was really looking forward to these new changes. I think there is a little issue in the Bronze division that I’m not sure Anet, or even the seasoned PvPers are really talking about.

I read a post where people were complaining about MMR and most people were responding that based on your skill level you will be able to move. They suggested working on communication, and working as a team so that you can win matches.

The big problem is, that as the entry area, so many of the players either are awful, have no idea what they are doing, or are trolls. There is no way to differentiate who is on the bottom because they quit matches, or are running around naked, from the people who are playing objectively and working to improve their skills.

Because of this, and not being able to roll in to PvP on teams, it really does seem that it will get harder and harder to get out of bronze as time goes on and the caliber of teammates you have continues to go lower.

In other words, the bulk of getting out of Bronze is largely luck of the draw.

Yes, its the same matchmaking up high, but the people who are playing even in silver know enough about the game to listen to each other, be polite, not quit, and so on. So, the higher up you go, the better team you are likely to get. In an essence it will become a better test of your skill the higher you go since the skill levels of everyone in a match will be closer together.

But down in Bronze, you are sitting there with people who decide to go get a snack instead of play, and you play 4 men down.

Yes, theoretically at some point the axe should swing back the other way. . .but then it isn’t about skill at all is it?

I’m not sure what the numbers are behind the scenes, but it would seem to me that Bronze division might need to be smaller, or give greater reward for wins and smaller for losses or something so people who are playing consistently can move up even if they get hit with a string of 5 teams of people who are just there to grind ascended gear.

((And it’s been happening. . .it’s actually incredibly frustrating.))

Thanks ANET for all you’ve done! I love the changes otherwise and plan to keep trying my heart out.

SHORT VERSION

You have problems if the place where all the NEW PEOPLE go, is the same place all the BAD PEOPLE go, and the only way for the NEW PEOPLE to get out, is to get really lucky, or learn to carry an entire team.

But…..new people don’t start in Bronze. Unless they had really bad placement matches. Anet stated new players would start with mmr of 1200, which puts them in silver.

Bardly.2571:

Hiya!

Been loving PvP and was really looking forward to these new changes. I think there is a little issue in the Bronze division that I’m not sure Anet, or even the seasoned PvPers are really talking about.

I read a post where people were complaining about MMR and most people were responding that based on your skill level you will be able to move. They suggested working on communication, and working as a team so that you can win matches.

The big problem is, that as the entry area, so many of the players either are awful, have no idea what they are doing, or are trolls. There is no way to differentiate who is on the bottom because they quit matches, or are running around naked, from the people who are playing objectively and working to improve their skills.

Because of this, and not being able to roll in to PvP on teams, it really does seem that it will get harder and harder to get out of bronze as time goes on and the caliber of teammates you have continues to go lower.

In other words, the bulk of getting out of Bronze is largely luck of the draw.

Yes, its the same matchmaking up high, but the people who are playing even in silver know enough about the game to listen to each other, be polite, not quit, and so on. So, the higher up you go, the better team you are likely to get. In an essence it will become a better test of your skill the higher you go since the skill levels of everyone in a match will be closer together.

But down in Bronze, you are sitting there with people who decide to go get a snack instead of play, and you play 4 men down.

Yes, theoretically at some point the axe should swing back the other way. . .but then it isn’t about skill at all is it?

I’m not sure what the numbers are behind the scenes, but it would seem to me that Bronze division might need to be smaller, or give greater reward for wins and smaller for losses or something so people who are playing consistently can move up even if they get hit with a string of 5 teams of people who are just there to grind ascended gear.

((And it’s been happening. . .it’s actually incredibly frustrating.))

Thanks ANET for all you’ve done! I love the changes otherwise and plan to keep trying my heart out.

None of that is true, get better at the game, and you will go up in rating. Even at the current pinnacle of ratings, ive seen even certain “pro” players barrate and harrass a new player, so saying at silver people start playing nicey nice is delusional at best. The more you play the more likely you are to find some one to duo with, on top of improving ur gameplay, if you are playing to improve that is.

Vicariuz.1605:

None of that is true, get better at the game, and you will go up in rating. Even at the current pinnacle of ratings, ive seen even certain “pro” players barrate and harrass a new player, so saying at silver people start playing nicey nice is delusional at best.

This is actually true. In Gold tier I had a team that just did not want to play that match. The end score was 20-500. They didn’t even try, they just sat in map chat joking away. Nothing you can do about random players, especially since we can’t pick our own teammates now.

Bardly.2571:

Hiya!

Been loving PvP and was really looking forward to these new changes. I think there is a little issue in the Bronze division that I’m not sure Anet, or even the seasoned PvPers are really talking about.

I read a post where people were complaining about MMR and most people were responding that based on your skill level you will be able to move. They suggested working on communication, and working as a team so that you can win matches.

The big problem is, that as the entry area, so many of the players either are awful, have no idea what they are doing, or are trolls. There is no way to differentiate who is on the bottom because they quit matches, or are running around naked, from the people who are playing objectively and working to improve their skills.

Because of this, and not being able to roll in to PvP on teams, it really does seem that it will get harder and harder to get out of bronze as time goes on and the caliber of teammates you have continues to go lower.

In other words, the bulk of getting out of Bronze is largely luck of the draw.

Yes, its the same matchmaking up high, but the people who are playing even in silver know enough about the game to listen to each other, be polite, not quit, and so on. So, the higher up you go, the better team you are likely to get. In an essence it will become a better test of your skill the higher you go since the skill levels of everyone in a match will be closer together.

But down in Bronze, you are sitting there with people who decide to go get a snack instead of play, and you play 4 men down.

Yes, theoretically at some point the axe should swing back the other way. . .but then it isn’t about skill at all is it?

I’m not sure what the numbers are behind the scenes, but it would seem to me that Bronze division might need to be smaller, or give greater reward for wins and smaller for losses or something so people who are playing consistently can move up even if they get hit with a string of 5 teams of people who are just there to grind ascended gear.

((And it’s been happening. . .it’s actually incredibly frustrating.))

Thanks ANET for all you’ve done! I love the changes otherwise and plan to keep trying my heart out.

The thing is that everything is just a running average so as long as you are better than most of the people around you, you should be able to advance. If you are striving to improve your game and getting better, you should be able to carry enough that you can win a high enough percentage of your games to improve. There will be lots of bad/useless players in bronze, however they will be on both sides, and as long as you can stomp the bads on the enemy team, you will win more than your fair share.

Consider the possibilities, if you actually are better than your rank says you are, then a team with 4 bad players + you should be able to beat a team of 5 bad players most of the time. Sometimes it might be 4 bad players + you against 4 bad players and someone at around your level, then the match is a toss up. It could also be 3 bad players you and someone around your level, against 5 bad players for an easy win. On average if you are better than the bads that surround you you will win quite a bit more than you lose and you should advance. Make no doubt you will still lose a lot, that is just part of solo qing in a competitive game. The only way to prove that you are as good as you think, is to get a statistically significant number of games that shows you winning more frequently then you should. Then you will move up the ranks until you are playing with people around your level.

So, how is this system supposed to be reflective of our actual skill then? I’m not really seeing it. When I logged on tonight to do placement matches the PvP lobby was packed and out of the 10 matches we had two people DC, one person curse and leave, and then two or three where people were just deathmatching in mid.

So I get placed in Bronze. There are some good people in Bronze who had the same problem, but we basically just keep trading wins and losses back and forth as we get paired up with people coming in with “Hi I’m new! How do we buy ascended gear? Do we get tickets if we win?”

Which is fine. . .but it doesn’t really seem to be working as intended given the way they said it would be ‘Skill’ based.

I’m deff not saying I’m right here. . .it just seems off to me.

Why not give additional (or less of a penalty) when someone gets all those top score things. . .wouldn’t -that- be more based on individual skill?

Well it is as skilled based as a solo queue ever will be. I mean, it’s a 5v5 team game with only solo/duo queue, you can’t account for class composition nor skill of the other 3-4 members of your team. Anet also said they’re not at a point where they can fairly factor in individual contribution into your mmr changes. So basically it is the mmr of your team vs mmr of enemy team, either you win or lose, and based on mmr variances you will go up or down so many points.

It is actually a much better system this season, just give it time to settle. Things always start off chaotic at the beginning of a season. My only gripe this season is the lack of a team queue.

Thanks for the responses. I’m going to keep working at it, just disheartening to work so hard to move up only to watch it melt away from a string of people rage quitting or who didn’t even do their build.

Hope it goes better for you. Only other thing I could suggest is if you keep getting several bad matches, take a break and come back to it later.

Yeah, my GF and I have been doing really well in unranked so it’s kind of disheartening to basically be seeing worse players than we are used to. Could be we just need to get used to this new group and figure out how to compensate. We really want to do well, love PVP in this game.

You guys need to relax. It’s only day 1 and it dropped while most collages and universities are running finals week. There are going to be a lot of good/bad players running their placement rounds for another week or so. You will get unlucky but you will get lucky too.

Stop thinking about small things and do big things, such as playing power war when you see a necro.

Also wait a few weeks to see how everything goes, first 2-3 days are always a mess, and even more with soft rating reset

Bardly.2571:

So, how is this system supposed to be reflective of our actual skill then? I’m not really seeing it. When I logged on tonight to do placement matches the PvP lobby was packed and out of the 10 matches we had two people DC, one person curse and leave, and then two or three where people were just deathmatching in mid.

So I get placed in Bronze. There are some good people in Bronze who had the same problem, but we basically just keep trading wins and losses back and forth as we get paired up with people coming in with “Hi I’m new! How do we buy ascended gear? Do we get tickets if we win?”

Which is fine. . .but it doesn’t really seem to be working as intended given the way they said it would be ‘Skill’ based.

I’m deff not saying I’m right here. . .it just seems off to me.

Why not give additional (or less of a penalty) when someone gets all those top score things. . .wouldn’t -that- be more based on individual skill?

It’s reflective of your “relative” skill, in a team, against a team. There is no magical algorithm to specifically target you and only you, when you are playing as a part of a greater entity. If that’s an issue for you, then come up with the solution yourself and present it. DC’s and ragers happen, often; getting grouped with them consecutively is an issue that Anet has indeed created. Anet failed in fostering a robust diverse PvP population, but I can say without a doubt (I do not often praise anet as noted by my post history) this season’s first HOURS, were infinitely more competitive, more fun, and more rewarding than ALL of the previous seasons combined, by a trillion times.

I’ve placed on 3 accounts so far, 2 of them at 1800+ and 1 at 1590 something (almost plat), that gold account was due to 2 DC’s (very similar to your experience). I was unhappy with that accounts placement, but it wasn’t WRONG. I lost 2 games, plain and simple; you know what I did then? I played another match, and made sure that I was carrying (perma camping far with portal). This is why you are being told it’s a L2P issue, you have every option available to you to outplay your opponents, it’s up to you to actually do it.

This is not bragging or talking down to you, my placement games were against teams like: Toker / Wakkey / Caed / Nos / kitten. Infinitely more difficult than anything bronze could dream of offering.

When you say “Skill,” what exactly are you defining it as in your own perception?

In addition I would add, WHEN you queue, is extremely important, ratings are incredibly volatile right now, and if you choose to gamble your ratings in off peak hour queues, you are doing so WILLINGLY. There is ALWAYS the option to queue dodge, it is (literally) insane to keep queuing into toxic groups both on your side as well as the enemy. Break the cycle and improve.

I believe in the system. I lost half of my 10 placement games due to facing players like kervv (Vermillion) and still was placed into Gold (MMR 1500) at the end. Now I am slowly creeping towards Platinum – on Power Reaper!

Just learn to carry your team!

Thanks for the feedback guys. I assumed there was something in the background I couldn’t see. I lost a little less than half my placement games and still ended up bronze, so I figured there was something else figuring in IE this being my first season.

I think it is less a L2P and more a Learn 2 Season Play. I’m not saying I’m amazing or anything but prior to this it has always felt like there was at least something I could do since the end of game scoreboard would show you numerically how you fared against opponents. I think I’m just a little resentful of playing blind like this.

Really though I am appreciating any feedback I can get. But I think my point still kinda stands overall that, as a rule, if you are being guided to solo q, and everyone in your division is noobs or bads, it really makes it far more volatile.

I’m not sure what it used to be like, but the harsh numbers I’m seeing when you loose in bronze make it seem kind of daunting. If in the previous system you didn’t lose progress up the chain for losses im not sure you are really seeing my point.

Sure in silver or gold you get scrubs and trolls. But as the system is designed eventually all of those people will be crowding bronze…so the entry level is going to be this giant pool of people who are terribad and who are new….those aren’t the same thing.

It seems like from what you all are saying the sorting hat was at least somewhat swayed by your past rating which, to my understanding, didn’t punish you for being on a sick team by potentially dropping you lower in the ranking?

Basically, getting out of Bronze is now, by design, a fight against the worst and the newest and since they can’t pick teams it feels like it’ll just get more daunting as more of the worst filter in from both sides. Bronze will be the Only one with this problem because the people moving from Bronze to silver will have had to basically been capable of carrying teams of noobs and trolls so consistently that I would guess they will probably be better than the people who are getting a boost from their previous experience?

Entry level shouldn’t always be done the way high level is done is my point I suppose

Bardly.2571:

I’m not sure what it used to be like, but the harsh numbers I’m seeing when you loose in bronze make it seem kind of daunting. If in the previous system you didn’t lose progress up the chain for losses im not sure you are really seeing my point.

Sure in silver or gold you get scrubs and trolls. But as the system is designed eventually all of those people will be crowding bronze…so the entry level is going to be this giant pool of people who are terribad and who are new….those aren’t the same thing.

It seems like from what you all are saying the sorting hat was at least somewhat swayed by your past rating which, to my understanding, didn’t punish you for being on a sick team by potentially dropping you lower in the ranking?

Basically, getting out of Bronze is now, by design, a fight against the worst and the newest and since they can’t pick teams it feels like it’ll just get more daunting as more of the worst filter in from both sides. Bronze will be the Only one with this problem because the people moving from Bronze to silver will have had to basically been capable of carrying teams of noobs and trolls so consistently that I would guess they will probably be better than the people who are getting a boost from their previous experience?

Entry level shouldn’t always be done the way high level is done is my point I suppose

Yeah this is true. If you’re in a lower division right now, best to keep your eyes open for one of the gems and try to duo with them. And also play your smartest of course, so they’ll want to.

Bardly.2571:

I’m not sure what it used to be like, but the harsh numbers I’m seeing when you loose in bronze make it seem kind of daunting. If in the previous system you didn’t lose progress up the chain for losses im not sure you are really seeing my point.

Sure in silver or gold you get scrubs and trolls. But as the system is designed eventually all of those people will be crowding bronze…so the entry level is going to be this giant pool of people who are terribad and who are new….those aren’t the same thing.

It seems like from what you all are saying the sorting hat was at least somewhat swayed by your past rating which, to my understanding, didn’t punish you for being on a sick team by potentially dropping you lower in the ranking?

Basically, getting out of Bronze is now, by design, a fight against the worst and the newest and since they can’t pick teams it feels like it’ll just get more daunting as more of the worst filter in from both sides. Bronze will be the Only one with this problem because the people moving from Bronze to silver will have had to basically been capable of carrying teams of noobs and trolls so consistently that I would guess they will probably be better than the people who are getting a boost from their previous experience?

Entry level shouldn’t always be done the way high level is done is my point I suppose

There is no problem with Entry level, no one starts in Bronze unless they tank their placement matches, if you are decent enough and/or have a decent teammate you won’t be stuck in Bronze, you seem to be under the assumption that everyone not in high tiers will be in bronze, this is not the case since people will always be moving up and down dynamically.

You can’t assign different rules between lower and upper tiers in the same rank structure, that does absolutely nothing for the health of the leagues.and if you or other people are in Bronze that will most likely mean you need to learn more about the strategies/mechanics and gives you the environment to pratice/learn in and theoretically you will all be near the same skill level. Once you improve your rating will increase and you will move forward this is how all competitive modes should be, yes it sucks that it is restricted to solo/duo since this is a 5v5 team gamemode design.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Bardly.2571:

I’m not sure what it used to be like, but the harsh numbers I’m seeing when you loose in bronze make it seem kind of daunting. If in the previous system you didn’t lose progress up the chain for losses im not sure you are really seeing my point.

Sure in silver or gold you get scrubs and trolls. But as the system is designed eventually all of those people will be crowding bronze…so the entry level is going to be this giant pool of people who are terribad and who are new….those aren’t the same thing.

It seems like from what you all are saying the sorting hat was at least somewhat swayed by your past rating which, to my understanding, didn’t punish you for being on a sick team by potentially dropping you lower in the ranking?

Basically, getting out of Bronze is now, by design, a fight against the worst and the newest and since they can’t pick teams it feels like it’ll just get more daunting as more of the worst filter in from both sides. Bronze will be the Only one with this problem because the people moving from Bronze to silver will have had to basically been capable of carrying teams of noobs and trolls so consistently that I would guess they will probably be better than the people who are getting a boost from their previous experience?

Entry level shouldn’t always be done the way high level is done is my point I suppose

There is no problem with Entry level, no one starts in Bronze unless they tank their placement matches, if you are decent enough and/or have a decent teammate you won’t be stuck in Bronze, you seem to be under the assumption that everyone not in high tiers will be in bronze, this is not the case since people will always be moving up and down dynamically.

You can’t assign different rules between lower and upper tiers in the same rank structure, that does absolutely nothing for the health of the leagues.and if you or other people are in Bronze that will most likely mean you need to learn more about the strategies/mechanics and gives you the environment to pratice/learn in and theoretically you will all be near the same skill level. Once you improve your rating will increase and you will move forward this is how all competitive modes should be, yes it sucks that it is restricted to solo/duo since this is a 5v5 team gamemode design.

That’s not quite true though is it because if you listen to some of the other people in bronze that won 7/10 of their games and some of the people in silver or gold who had a worse ratio they clearly grandfathered a lot of you all in. And since they did, all the experienced players are up in silver and beyond.

Again the issue is not that I don’t plan to “get good” the problem I’m trying to be forward is that having the entry level be the same place you send you trolls and rejects is an inherently bad idea when the only way out is via a win loss ratio.

I’m willing to just give it a chance and see how the numbers play out but when I’m winning three games with +25 each time then losing 4 games at -23 each in a division where winning or loosing is almost entirely a dice roll there really is very little hope.

I think the system is an improvement from all I’ve read and heard, I just see this as a single big glowing weak spot.

Bardly.2571:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Bardly.2571:

I’m not sure what it used to be like, but the harsh numbers I’m seeing when you loose in bronze make it seem kind of daunting. If in the previous system you didn’t lose progress up the chain for losses im not sure you are really seeing my point.

Sure in silver or gold you get scrubs and trolls. But as the system is designed eventually all of those people will be crowding bronze…so the entry level is going to be this giant pool of people who are terribad and who are new….those aren’t the same thing.

It seems like from what you all are saying the sorting hat was at least somewhat swayed by your past rating which, to my understanding, didn’t punish you for being on a sick team by potentially dropping you lower in the ranking?

Basically, getting out of Bronze is now, by design, a fight against the worst and the newest and since they can’t pick teams it feels like it’ll just get more daunting as more of the worst filter in from both sides. Bronze will be the Only one with this problem because the people moving from Bronze to silver will have had to basically been capable of carrying teams of noobs and trolls so consistently that I would guess they will probably be better than the people who are getting a boost from their previous experience?

Entry level shouldn’t always be done the way high level is done is my point I suppose

There is no problem with Entry level, no one starts in Bronze unless they tank their placement matches, if you are decent enough and/or have a decent teammate you won’t be stuck in Bronze, you seem to be under the assumption that everyone not in high tiers will be in bronze, this is not the case since people will always be moving up and down dynamically.

You can’t assign different rules between lower and upper tiers in the same rank structure, that does absolutely nothing for the health of the leagues.and if you or other people are in Bronze that will most likely mean you need to learn more about the strategies/mechanics and gives you the environment to pratice/learn in and theoretically you will all be near the same skill level. Once you improve your rating will increase and you will move forward this is how all competitive modes should be, yes it sucks that it is restricted to solo/duo since this is a 5v5 team gamemode design.

That’s not quite true though is it because if you listen to some of the other people in bronze that won 7/10 of their games and some of the people in silver or gold who had a worse ratio they clearly grandfathered a lot of you all in. And since they did, all the experienced players are up in silver and beyond.

Again the issue is not that I don’t plan to “get good” the problem I’m trying to be forward is that having the entry level be the same place you send you trolls and rejects is an inherently bad idea when the only way out is via a win loss ratio.

I’m willing to just give it a chance and see how the numbers play out but when I’m winning three games with +25 each time then losing 4 games at -23 each in a division where winning or loosing is almost entirely a dice roll there really is very little hope.

I think the system is an improvement from all I’ve read and heard, I just see this as a single big glowing weak spot.

When you say +25 and -23, do you mean the final scores are 475-500 or 500-477?

jonemirant.1653:

really?? new people place in silver to start??? I won 5/5 for my first 10 matches and i got placed in bronze……

Everyone was reset to silver with zero games played. I believe they said it wasn’t a total reset so that the very best players might be at tier 3 silver or gold and the people with no games ever might be at tier 1 silver, but I don’t know the details.

Once you start playing, starting in silver, things start counting, so you presumably lost to some poorly ranked teams and got bumped down in MMR.

Bardly.2571:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Bardly.2571:

I’m not sure what it used to be like, but the harsh numbers I’m seeing when you loose in bronze make it seem kind of daunting. If in the previous system you didn’t lose progress up the chain for losses im not sure you are really seeing my point.

Sure in silver or gold you get scrubs and trolls. But as the system is designed eventually all of those people will be crowding bronze…so the entry level is going to be this giant pool of people who are terribad and who are new….those aren’t the same thing.

It seems like from what you all are saying the sorting hat was at least somewhat swayed by your past rating which, to my understanding, didn’t punish you for being on a sick team by potentially dropping you lower in the ranking?

Basically, getting out of Bronze is now, by design, a fight against the worst and the newest and since they can’t pick teams it feels like it’ll just get more daunting as more of the worst filter in from both sides. Bronze will be the Only one with this problem because the people moving from Bronze to silver will have had to basically been capable of carrying teams of noobs and trolls so consistently that I would guess they will probably be better than the people who are getting a boost from their previous experience?

Entry level shouldn’t always be done the way high level is done is my point I suppose

There is no problem with Entry level, no one starts in Bronze unless they tank their placement matches, if you are decent enough and/or have a decent teammate you won’t be stuck in Bronze, you seem to be under the assumption that everyone not in high tiers will be in bronze, this is not the case since people will always be moving up and down dynamically.

You can’t assign different rules between lower and upper tiers in the same rank structure, that does absolutely nothing for the health of the leagues.and if you or other people are in Bronze that will most likely mean you need to learn more about the strategies/mechanics and gives you the environment to pratice/learn in and theoretically you will all be near the same skill level. Once you improve your rating will increase and you will move forward this is how all competitive modes should be, yes it sucks that it is restricted to solo/duo since this is a 5v5 team gamemode design.

That’s not quite true though is it because if you listen to some of the other people in bronze that won 7/10 of their games and some of the people in silver or gold who had a worse ratio they clearly grandfathered a lot of you all in. And since they did, all the experienced players are up in silver and beyond.

Again the issue is not that I don’t plan to “get good” the problem I’m trying to be forward is that having the entry level be the same place you send you trolls and rejects is an inherently bad idea when the only way out is via a win loss ratio.

I’m willing to just give it a chance and see how the numbers play out but when I’m winning three games with +25 each time then losing 4 games at -23 each in a division where winning or loosing is almost entirely a dice roll there really is very little hope.

I think the system is an improvement from all I’ve read and heard, I just see this as a single big glowing weak spot.

There was a Soft Mmr reset so everyone was brought closer to the 1200 Mmr which is the baseline for new accts and so on, so no one starts with a bronze Mmr even in the Placement matches unless their Mmr was extremely low.

It’s not based on a win/loss ratio thought it is based on beating people with similar/higher Mmr if you lose to them your loss in mmr is lower if you lose against a lower mmr player the loss is bigger, and the win will be smaller.

With Solo queue their is always randomness but the matchmaker is designed to put you with people of similar Mmr, no match maker can acct for human deviation with being a troll and so on.

Just play the season improve because 1 person can carry in some cases and two players teamed up can do so slightly easier, it isn’t perfect but it is possible. And you are under the assumption all trolls and such will be sent to Bronze which may not be the case they will more than likely be spread throughout all tiers of play.

Huskyboy.1053:

Bardly.2571:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Bardly.2571:

I’m not sure what it used to be like, but the harsh numbers I’m seeing when you loose in bronze make it seem kind of daunting. If in the previous system you didn’t lose progress up the chain for losses im not sure you are really seeing my point.

Sure in silver or gold you get scrubs and trolls. But as the system is designed eventually all of those people will be crowding bronze…so the entry level is going to be this giant pool of people who are terribad and who are new….those aren’t the same thing.

It seems like from what you all are saying the sorting hat was at least somewhat swayed by your past rating which, to my understanding, didn’t punish you for being on a sick team by potentially dropping you lower in the ranking?

Basically, getting out of Bronze is now, by design, a fight against the worst and the newest and since they can’t pick teams it feels like it’ll just get more daunting as more of the worst filter in from both sides. Bronze will be the Only one with this problem because the people moving from Bronze to silver will have had to basically been capable of carrying teams of noobs and trolls so consistently that I would guess they will probably be better than the people who are getting a boost from their previous experience?

Entry level shouldn’t always be done the way high level is done is my point I suppose

There is no problem with Entry level, no one starts in Bronze unless they tank their placement matches, if you are decent enough and/or have a decent teammate you won’t be stuck in Bronze, you seem to be under the assumption that everyone not in high tiers will be in bronze, this is not the case since people will always be moving up and down dynamically.

You can’t assign different rules between lower and upper tiers in the same rank structure, that does absolutely nothing for the health of the leagues.and if you or other people are in Bronze that will most likely mean you need to learn more about the strategies/mechanics and gives you the environment to pratice/learn in and theoretically you will all be near the same skill level. Once you improve your rating will increase and you will move forward this is how all competitive modes should be, yes it sucks that it is restricted to solo/duo since this is a 5v5 team gamemode design.

That’s not quite true though is it because if you listen to some of the other people in bronze that won 7/10 of their games and some of the people in silver or gold who had a worse ratio they clearly grandfathered a lot of you all in. And since they did, all the experienced players are up in silver and beyond.

Again the issue is not that I don’t plan to “get good” the problem I’m trying to be forward is that having the entry level be the same place you send you trolls and rejects is an inherently bad idea when the only way out is via a win loss ratio.

I’m willing to just give it a chance and see how the numbers play out but when I’m winning three games with +25 each time then losing 4 games at -23 each in a division where winning or loosing is almost entirely a dice roll there really is very little hope.

I think the system is an improvement from all I’ve read and heard, I just see this as a single big glowing weak spot.

When you say +25 and -23, do you mean the final scores are 475-500 or 500-477?

No I mean the points it gives you to move within the ranks. Like when I win I get between 30-25 points and when I lose I lose about 23-27 points….

So…I’m not sure how we can get upward mobility in bronze short of being on a hard winning streak with zero bad luck for a few weeks….which seems wrong since clearly everyone in silver and gold aren’t just winning every match.

I’d say you should be able to reliably move up if you are well above 50% win ratio right? But holding that in the dice roll of bronze is going bro be tougher and tougher as the bass funnel from both sides.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Once you improve your rating will increase and you will move forward this is how all competitive modes should be, yes it sucks that it is restricted to solo/duo since this is a 5v5 team gamemode design.

And there is the big problem with SoloQ

When you start in Bronze after the first 10 Games, you will have a really hard time to get up to Silber.

It’s really hard to improve, when the Team is not playing “with you”

And on the other side: You must be really lucky to get decent Player on your Team in Bronze

Bardly.2571:

Huskyboy.1053:

Bardly.2571:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Bardly.2571:

I’m not sure what it used to be like, but the harsh numbers I’m seeing when you loose in bronze make it seem kind of daunting. If in the previous system you didn’t lose progress up the chain for losses im not sure you are really seeing my point.

Sure in silver or gold you get scrubs and trolls. But as the system is designed eventually all of those people will be crowding bronze…so the entry level is going to be this giant pool of people who are terribad and who are new….those aren’t the same thing.

It seems like from what you all are saying the sorting hat was at least somewhat swayed by your past rating which, to my understanding, didn’t punish you for being on a sick team by potentially dropping you lower in the ranking?

Basically, getting out of Bronze is now, by design, a fight against the worst and the newest and since they can’t pick teams it feels like it’ll just get more daunting as more of the worst filter in from both sides. Bronze will be the Only one with this problem because the people moving from Bronze to silver will have had to basically been capable of carrying teams of noobs and trolls so consistently that I would guess they will probably be better than the people who are getting a boost from their previous experience?

Entry level shouldn’t always be done the way high level is done is my point I suppose

There is no problem with Entry level, no one starts in Bronze unless they tank their placement matches, if you are decent enough and/or have a decent teammate you won’t be stuck in Bronze, you seem to be under the assumption that everyone not in high tiers will be in bronze, this is not the case since people will always be moving up and down dynamically.

You can’t assign different rules between lower and upper tiers in the same rank structure, that does absolutely nothing for the health of the leagues.and if you or other people are in Bronze that will most likely mean you need to learn more about the strategies/mechanics and gives you the environment to pratice/learn in and theoretically you will all be near the same skill level. Once you improve your rating will increase and you will move forward this is how all competitive modes should be, yes it sucks that it is restricted to solo/duo since this is a 5v5 team gamemode design.

That’s not quite true though is it because if you listen to some of the other people in bronze that won 7/10 of their games and some of the people in silver or gold who had a worse ratio they clearly grandfathered a lot of you all in. And since they did, all the experienced players are up in silver and beyond.

Again the issue is not that I don’t plan to “get good” the problem I’m trying to be forward is that having the entry level be the same place you send you trolls and rejects is an inherently bad idea when the only way out is via a win loss ratio.

I’m willing to just give it a chance and see how the numbers play out but when I’m winning three games with +25 each time then losing 4 games at -23 each in a division where winning or loosing is almost entirely a dice roll there really is very little hope.

I think the system is an improvement from all I’ve read and heard, I just see this as a single big glowing weak spot.

When you say +25 and -23, do you mean the final scores are 475-500 or 500-477?

No I mean the points it gives you to move within the ranks. Like when I win I get between 30-25 points and when I lose I lose about 23-27 points….

So…I’m not sure how we can get upward mobility in bronze short of being on a hard winning streak with zero bad luck for a few weeks….which seems wrong since clearly everyone in silver and gold aren’t just winning every match.

I’d say you should be able to reliably move up if you are well above 50% win ratio right? But holding that in the dice roll of bronze is going bro be tougher and tougher as the bass funnel from both sides.

Again this is not a W/L ratio system it is a MMR driven system, if you win against players with Higher MMR the more points you receive if you lose the less points you lose now the exact opposite is true if you Win or Lose against lower MMR teams, you will gain less and lose More.

Feirin.5481:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Once you improve your rating will increase and you will move forward this is how all competitive modes should be, yes it sucks that it is restricted to solo/duo since this is a 5v5 team gamemode design.

And there is the big problem with SoloQ

When you start in Bronze after the first 10 Games, you will have a really hard time to get up to Silber.

It’s really hard to improve, when the Team is not playing “with you”

And on the other side: You must be really lucky to get decent Player on your Team in Bronze

Good thing this isn’t a pure Solo Queue system and it would be extremely foolish to not Queue up with a friend of decent skill, it’s amazing what two people working together can do in this game mode.

Bardly.2571:

So…I’m not sure how we can get upward mobility in bronze short of being on a hard winning streak with zero bad luck for a few weeks….which seems wrong since clearly everyone in silver and gold aren’t just winning every match.

I’d say you should be able to reliably move up if you are well above 50% win ratio right? But holding that in the dice roll of bronze is going bro be tougher and tougher as the bass funnel from both sides.

Nah if you belong above bronze it will be easier to get out as time goes on. The players that truly belong above the division will slowly move out as they end up being the only silver/gold/platinum/legendary-level player in the entire match, they’ll easily dominate and hand their team the win. And the players that actually belong in bronze but made it into silver will trickle back down. Basically your opponents will get easier as time goes on, so if you’re improving (including spending time practicing in dueling hotjoins to get better at combat) then you’ll win more and more often. Gotta practice though, only playing matches will improve your fighting skills more slowly.

jonemirant.1653:

really?? new people place in silver to start??? I won 5/5 for my first 10 matches and i got placed in bronze……

same… Apparently the first 3 games you play largely determine where you get placed, I got blowout games for those, with 100-200 scores so after that it was not a relevant anymore

I had bad luck with my placement matches and started in silver. Ever since i’ve been winning and losing 50/50. I got from silver 2 to silver 3 after a whole day of playing. Whenever I lose a game its’ -20, but when I win its +15. So it’s atm super hard for me to progress. But I guess Ill keep going..

The skill level in bronze is appalling.
I lose match after match against players that I dominate in 1v1 and 1v2 because some players in my team luck basic understanding of their class and combat in general.
80% of the time within 30 seconds from the start of an engagement at mid there will be at least 2 already downed from traps and aoe fields,they can’t dodge,they can’t use the topography and structures of the map to their advantage,they don’t know how to avoid a enemy dps spike.
I want to play a Necro I’m having a ton fun with it and I switched to my Ele because I have to babykitten my team.
I’m already bored.

And now you’re stuck there and can’t move, only if you get lucky with teams 10 times in a row. It’s really terrible. I had 2 dcs and a game with 3 power warrs on my team in placement. Ended up in bronze and no matter how well I play, if we lose I lose rating. Even if I were to solo their team five times while the rest of my team scratches their balls afk I still lose rating.

Whoever thought this was a good idea for a pug-based system really needs a good smack to wake him/her up.

That’s why I wanted to put it here…I know people who kicked out and placed higher right off aren’t seeing it but those of us in the bottom would maybe like to hear something that gives us hope. Cuz it really does seem like this will just get worse as the system filters more people down.

Bardly.2571:

That’s why I wanted to put it here…I know people who kicked out and placed higher right off aren’t seeing it but those of us in the bottom would maybe like to hear something that gives us hope. Cuz it really does seem like this will just get worse as the system filters more people down.

Bardly lol I already explained why it’s the exact opposite. If you’re too good for Bronze, as more bad people filter in and good people filter out, it will get easier for you to faceroll and get out faster. The system doesn’t hate you, there will always be bad people on the other team too.

Huskyboy.1053:

Bardly.2571:

That’s why I wanted to put it here…I know people who kicked out and placed higher right off aren’t seeing it but those of us in the bottom would maybe like to hear something that gives us hope. Cuz it really does seem like this will just get worse as the system filters more people down.

Bardly lol I already explained why it’s the exact opposite. If you’re too good for Bronze, as more bad people filter in and good people filter out, it will get easier for you to faceroll and get out faster. The system doesn’t hate you, there will always be bad people on the other team too.

Still just based on random luck. I’m not one of those people that start calling others “noobs” and shouting about “l2p” etc in team chat if we’re losing, I just keep going out and doing what I can to prevent it. But there are so many cases where you simply can’t, no matter how hard you try or how well you play. It’s really depressing when you feel like you’re having the game of a lifetime and then you see your teammates clump up at your close to take down 1 guy. And they all stand at the point to wait for cap as well…

Huskyboy.1053:

Bardly.2571:

That’s why I wanted to put it here…I know people who kicked out and placed higher right off aren’t seeing it but those of us in the bottom would maybe like to hear something that gives us hope. Cuz it really does seem like this will just get worse as the system filters more people down.

Bardly lol I already explained why it’s the exact opposite. If you’re too good for Bronze, as more bad people filter in and good people filter out, it will get easier for you to faceroll and get out faster. The system doesn’t hate you, there will always be bad people on the other team too.

Husky, I agree with you to a certain extent I’m just not sure if your understanding what we’re talking about. The numbers aren’t really adding up. At this rate if I win 7 games and lose 3 I’m looking at a net increase in rank of about 200 points. I could keep up a streak like that for a long time and still remain in bronze.

The problem is, because so many of the people you get paired with are completely new it’s really unlikely you can manage to maintain that sort of streak at all.

You guys say things will get better, but basically right now every match I’m having to explain how PvP even works to the people in my group. I can’t even be focusing on improving my skill or winning. And as people funnel down into the division from the natural losses in Silver we’ll be seeing a lot of those people who just lucked out adding to the group.

In other words, Bronze has an endless supply of low skill players and little opportunity for advancement because of it.

As for beating people with higher MMR , it’s already hard to win against a team of similar MMR down in Bronze because it’s all about how the new people do since it is kinda grouping everyone in bronze similarly. Maybe it would be easy for people who should be plat or gold to move out of, but for people who have the skill level for silver it’s basically almost a trap lol.

Like I said, willing to just play it out and see but as a numbers and comp models operations research guy this has all the trappings of trouble. Props to Anet for everything they have done with this so far and it really seems like maybe just

I’d really suggest duo queueing, if you have a decent partner you’ll do a lot better. I’ll be on later and we can duel so I can see where you’re at, though I’m not an amazing player myself. If I were you I’d play a high mobility profession (mesmer or thief ideally, shiro/glint rev also acceptable) and fly around capping or defending when possible. Other option is bunkering, DH obviously a good choice for that, if you do well then you’ll maintain at least one node all fight. At your level both teams are going to be terrible at rotations, so if you excel at that then I guarantee a higher than 50% win rate. How much higher than 50% I can’t say, but in Bronze you will make a much larger difference through your rotations than through fighting skill. That changes at higher levels.

I haven’t looked into the raw amounts by which your MMR increases/decreases, but it sounds like you’re seeing positive increases, just gotta keep it up. Also keep in mind why you play pvp; is it to reach some arbitrary MMR level? Is it to win each individual match? To get better? Focusing on that will make the journey more fun in spite of losses.

Just wanna drop in here too thanks to all for not just trashing me on this.

Huskyboy.1053:

lso keep in mind why you play pvp; is it to reach some arbitrary MMR level? Is it to win each individual match? To get better? Focusing on that will make the journey more fun in spite of losses.

There isn’t much fun in a game where you constantly see your teammates run in 1 by 1 into a group of 4 enemies and you lose with 2 points held because they just farmed kills for the win. Not much fun at all. That’s what happens at lower ratings.

Now that I’m home I think I can write a better response. I agree Husky, but there really is sort of a problem.

And to the answer that “Just find a Duo”, I agree that would work. . .however, if the answer to the new “Individual Skill Based” system is to pair up. . .then the system doesn’t work right?

It sounded like in the notes where would be times when we were playing against people of higher skill and that somehow if we managed to beat someone of a higher skill level with our massive troup of PvE ascended hunters we would get more points. . .are we talking like +700? Because otherwise it won’t really help much in the long run.

I know it sounds like I’m complaining, but it’s more of a curiosity. In the patch notes they made it sound like this was a test run for the new matchmaking system. . .I guess I’m wondering if this is as they intended. . .IE you will spend your entire first season in Bronze most likely, and Bronze will hold the bulk of the player base. If that’s the case then I suppose that makes sense. But if they intended to help matchmaking for the more seasoned players, they are shooting themselves in the foot by creating this bottom heavy trap.

I have a sinking feeling that if I was in Silver or Gold I would be winning and loosing about the same number of matches. . .since I could randomly end up on a good team or bad team just like in Bronze. . .so. . .what’s even the point of the matchmaking at all? Just give people individual rewards and let everyone matchmake together since there are no teams?

You are making an assumption that all Players are Bronze level, this is inherently a flawed way of thinking, the season literally started yesterday not everyone played, there is also a huge in flux of PvE players that don’t know the basics of playing PvP becaus new rewards and new content as soon as the mmrs start to actually reflect appropriately you will see the population spread out among the ranks. This happens when you do a soft reset of Mmr once everyone is spread out it will balance out and players will be place approximately to their skill, especially now that there are no safety nets and bottlenecks, a lot of players had an inflated sense of self skill due to previous seasons forcing everyone to ruby and higher so, the longer the season goes on the more you will see where you truly lie skill wise