The PvP devs NEED control over skills

The PvP devs NEED control over skills

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Posted by: Dr Patrik.3642

Dr Patrik.3642

Please Anet,

If you want this game to have ANY sort of serious competition you need to give the PvP developers control over skills. The current system of the PvP developers suggesting changes to the skill balance team hasn’t worked thus far and I doubt it ever will. Now I know they said that they are looking into skill splitting but that’s not enough. Let the developers whose focus is PvP balance it. I’m not saying let them completely redesign skills, just let them change the numbers on them or tweak the functionality a tiny bit. Skills will then still resemble the versions in the other game modes, but they will be able to be much more balanced in PvP.

No one in PvP cares that the skills are the same as they are in PvE and WvW if they are forced to play miserable OP builds if they want to be competitive. Nobody wants entire trait lines and utility skill types that are completely useless only to have a few skills, weapons, and trait lines that are OP and are required to play the class. There are already heaps of posts about people quitting PvP because of imbalance and even “pro” players saying PvP is a joke. This game’s combat system has SO much potential to make it great and as someone who loves this game its truly depressing to see it go to waste.

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Posted by: GhostAirborne.6872

GhostAirborne.6872

Fine as is right now

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Posted by: Dr Patrik.3642

Dr Patrik.3642

Fine as is right now

Please explain how these are fine.

-the OVERWHELMING number of passives on every class
-the lack of build diversity
-elementalist pretty much getting deleted from PvP as it has no other build options
-condi spam faceroll chronomancer
-Reapers that can put insane condi damage while still being a tanky hp pool.
-passive tank bruiser scrapper that is almost unkillable 1v1 (assuming the scrapper isnt completely brain dead)
-Bristleback and Smokescale being the only used ranger pets
-perma evade condi thief
-condi warrior with insane condi damage and passives and regen for days
-dps DH trapper with heals and blocks like a bunker
-Revenants with evades and blocks on almost everything

But nope! PvP is fine. (sarcasm)

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Posted by: Sorel.4870

Sorel.4870

I don’t think we should blame the common balance for everything you listed there. Keep in mind that the balance team, with HoT, had mostly pvp in mind when designing the new professions (scrapper presence on point, daredevil finishers and CC, reaper damage mitigation, etc…).

However, there is some truth in what you say. The most obvious proof is the amulet removal. If GW2 was pvp only, cleric would never have been removed. Grouch said himself that the amulet was removed because it was a factor he had direct control about, while naturally the better solution would have been a nerf to ele sustain, or at least to ele team support. But that’s up to the balance team.

I’ve always been sceptical about this “separated balance” issue, but this made me wonder. I don’t know Anet’s internal politics, so I don’t know how the balance team works, but Grouch’s post certainly suggested that the pvp team doesn’t have total control over balance, which is problem.

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Posted by: Omega Zoa.3859

Omega Zoa.3859

Fine as is right now

Please explain how these are fine.

-the OVERWHELMING number of passives on every class
-the lack of build diversity
-elementalist pretty much getting deleted from PvP as it has no other build options
-condi spam faceroll chronomancer
-Reapers that can put insane condi damage while still being a tanky hp pool.
-passive tank bruiser scrapper that is almost unkillable 1v1 (assuming the scrapper isnt completely brain dead)
-Bristleback and Smokescale being the only used ranger pets
-perma evade condi thief
-condi warrior with insane condi damage and passives and regen for days
-dps DH trapper with heals and blocks like a bunker
-Revenants with evades and blocks on almost everything

But nope! PvP is fine. (sarcasm)

Spoken like someone who never touched Rev, as a rev we got nerfed into the ground, and now we are bugged galore.

As for ele, try experimenting a LITTLE, don;t just auto go to metabattle, try new things, from what i seen ele is still in a ok spot, just not god mode anymore.

“Might makes Right” – the ability to commit an act is sufficient justification to do it.

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Posted by: OneKlicKill.4285

OneKlicKill.4285

Fine as is right now

Please explain how these are fine.

-the OVERWHELMING number of passives on every class
-the lack of build diversity
-elementalist pretty much getting deleted from PvP as it has no other build options
-condi spam faceroll chronomancer
-Reapers that can put insane condi damage while still being a tanky hp pool.
-passive tank bruiser scrapper that is almost unkillable 1v1 (assuming the scrapper isnt completely brain dead)
-Bristleback and Smokescale being the only used ranger pets
-perma evade condi thief
-condi warrior with insane condi damage and passives and regen for days
-dps DH trapper with heals and blocks like a bunker
-Revenants with evades and blocks on almost everything

But nope! PvP is fine. (sarcasm)

Spoken like someone who never touched Rev, as a rev we got nerfed into the ground, and now we are bugged galore.

As for ele, try experimenting a LITTLE, don;t just auto go to metabattle, try new things, from what i seen ele is still in a ok spot, just not god mode anymore.

Revs are in a great spot (yeah bugs suck). They are top tier atm.

Everyone keeps saying “oh just keep experimenting I’m sure ele are fine” how long till you guys finally understand that we’ve been experimenting this entire time most of us never wanted to be a kittening bunker heal bot. We’ve been experimenting for a season now. But we got nerfed across the board what build that wasn’t viable last season would become viable with flat nerfs everywhere??

And your right ele is an okay spot but everyone else is at demi-god or God tier level in comparison…

Please skill/trait split and give control to the PvP team. Karl is fucking killing us

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Posted by: Omega Zoa.3859

Omega Zoa.3859

Fine as is right now

Please explain how these are fine.

-the OVERWHELMING number of passives on every class
-the lack of build diversity
-elementalist pretty much getting deleted from PvP as it has no other build options
-condi spam faceroll chronomancer
-Reapers that can put insane condi damage while still being a tanky hp pool.
-passive tank bruiser scrapper that is almost unkillable 1v1 (assuming the scrapper isnt completely brain dead)
-Bristleback and Smokescale being the only used ranger pets
-perma evade condi thief
-condi warrior with insane condi damage and passives and regen for days
-dps DH trapper with heals and blocks like a bunker
-Revenants with evades and blocks on almost everything

But nope! PvP is fine. (sarcasm)

Spoken like someone who never touched Rev, as a rev we got nerfed into the ground, and now we are bugged galore.

As for ele, try experimenting a LITTLE, don;t just auto go to metabattle, try new things, from what i seen ele is still in a ok spot, just not god mode anymore.

Revs are in a great spot (yeah bugs suck). They are top tier atm.

Everyone keeps saying “oh just keep experimenting I’m sure ele are fine” how long till you guys finally understand that we’ve been experimenting this entire time most of us never wanted to be a kittening bunker heal bot. We’ve been experimenting for a season now. But we got nerfed across the board what build that wasn’t viable last season would become viable with flat nerfs everywhere??

And your right ele is an okay spot but everyone else is at demi-god or God tier level in comparison…

Hue, yes great spot, Apply any condis on revs and they melt in seconds, “but run mallyx” yeah sure a few seconds of resistance does not do much with the constant condis being thrown around.

I guess its a thing where we think our respective classes are weak, you think ele is weak but rev is in a “great” spot and i think the other way around, ele may not be in a “great spot” but neither is rev.

“Might makes Right” – the ability to commit an act is sufficient justification to do it.

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Posted by: Dr Patrik.3642

Dr Patrik.3642

Spoken like someone who never touched Rev, as a rev we got nerfed into the ground, and now we are bugged galore.

As for ele, try experimenting a LITTLE, don;t just auto go to metabattle, try new things, from what i seen ele is still in a ok spot, just not god mode anymore.

Well this is funny cause rev is actually my main. The reason why when playing rev all the blocks and dodges don’t feel broken is that everyone else (minus poor ele) has an insane amount of stuff to use as well. If most/all of those things I’ve listed get changed except rev, it would be to strong. Hopefully that makes a bit more sense now. As for the myriad of rev bugs, that’s a whole other issue as they aren’t intended, and should get fixed, where as the points I made are things that chosen to be put into the game.

As for ele it has the magi bunker build that makes it work in the same way warrior had gunflame back in season 1 and season 2. It works to an extent but it not optimal at all. Also, don’t even try to bring up s/f burst, that has so many flaws it’s not even funny.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

They won’t do it because “it would be too confusing for new players” <<< i still get a laugh from this one irl.

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Galtrix.7369

Galtrix.7369

Fine as is right now

Please explain how these are fine.

-the OVERWHELMING number of passives on every class
-the lack of build diversity
-elementalist pretty much getting deleted from PvP as it has no other build options
-condi spam faceroll chronomancer
-Reapers that can put insane condi damage while still being a tanky hp pool.
-passive tank bruiser scrapper that is almost unkillable 1v1 (assuming the scrapper isnt completely brain dead)
-Bristleback and Smokescale being the only used ranger pets
-perma evade condi thief
-condi warrior with insane condi damage and passives and regen for days
-dps DH trapper with heals and blocks like a bunker
-Revenants with evades and blocks on almost everything

But nope! PvP is fine. (sarcasm)

Condi-spam faceroll Chronomancer? I main a Chronomancer and I can tell you I don’t deal nearly the amount of damage as other classes. Literally the only reason a Chronomancer exists in PvP is to distract the other team until your teammates can kill them. That, or you can use blink and quickness to capture points and then vanish away when the enemy approaches.

[~Galtrix~] [~Level 80 Elementalist~] [~GoM~]

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Posted by: OneKlicKill.4285

OneKlicKill.4285

Fine as is right now

Please explain how these are fine.

-the OVERWHELMING number of passives on every class
-the lack of build diversity
-elementalist pretty much getting deleted from PvP as it has no other build options
-condi spam faceroll chronomancer
-Reapers that can put insane condi damage while still being a tanky hp pool.
-passive tank bruiser scrapper that is almost unkillable 1v1 (assuming the scrapper isnt completely brain dead)
-Bristleback and Smokescale being the only used ranger pets
-perma evade condi thief
-condi warrior with insane condi damage and passives and regen for days
-dps DH trapper with heals and blocks like a bunker
-Revenants with evades and blocks on almost everything

But nope! PvP is fine. (sarcasm)

Spoken like someone who never touched Rev, as a rev we got nerfed into the ground, and now we are bugged galore.

As for ele, try experimenting a LITTLE, don;t just auto go to metabattle, try new things, from what i seen ele is still in a ok spot, just not god mode anymore.

Revs are in a great spot (yeah bugs suck). They are top tier atm.

Everyone keeps saying “oh just keep experimenting I’m sure ele are fine” how long till you guys finally understand that we’ve been experimenting this entire time most of us never wanted to be a kittening bunker heal bot. We’ve been experimenting for a season now. But we got nerfed across the board what build that wasn’t viable last season would become viable with flat nerfs everywhere??

And your right ele is an okay spot but everyone else is at demi-god or God tier level in comparison…

Hue, yes great spot, Apply any condis on revs and they melt in seconds, “but run mallyx” yeah sure a few seconds of resistance does not do much with the constant condis being thrown around.

I guess its a thing where we think our respective classes are weak, you think ele is weak but rev is in a “great” spot and i think the other way around, ele may not be in a “great spot” but neither is rev.

Actually at expo release I dropped ele for Rev. I kittening had a blast playing Rev (I really liked mace are bummer it’s not too viable now) , because I hated (and still hate) what the tempest spec and Hot has done to ele as a class.

Yes, I agree rev have have a weakness to conditions but the difference is they can flat out just avoid the application with their numerous hard migatiom if they are playing well. Their burst is kittening insane. There is no doubt they are top tier right now in the meta, you can quote me on this in a few weeks or at the end of the season or however long it takes for you to be convinced.

Please skill/trait split and give control to the PvP team. Karl is fucking killing us

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Posted by: ZoroDaOtter.3859

ZoroDaOtter.3859

the OVERWHELMING number of passives on every class

IMO, this is most likely the result of our skill system. When you only have 10 active skills, the only way to make a character do more is to stack on passives.

Reapers that can put insane condi damage while still being a tanky hp pool.

Reapers have to debilitate you/face-tank everything. They have no blocks, little to no heals outside of skill 6, and no extra endurance regeneration traits. They sustain by making sure you do little as damage as possible and face-tanking the rest.

dps DH trapper with heals and blocks like a bunker

DPS Guardians (and by extension DH) have always been this way. They were designed to sustain via blocks and heals and die when you catch them with no CD’s. But yea, the trap heal could use some adjustment, don’t think any other heal in the game has base ~9k heal with a 1.25 HP ratio.

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

So there was no meat on the OP so I’ll go with this one.

-the OVERWHELMING number of passives on every class

How many classes actually have overwhelming passives? Most of the time they have a relatively limited pool. Can we have a specific example of which builds have ‘overwhelming passives’?

-the lack of build diversity

But build diversity was at its highest point in the previous patch with 8 builds considered to be Meta quality.

-elementalist pretty much getting deleted from PvP as it has no other build options

This is a reaction after two weeks. It is difficult to take this complaint seriously with such a short timeframe.

-condi spam faceroll chronomancer

If condi spam is an issue why not run more condi clears?

-Reapers that can put insane condi damage while still being a tanky hp pool.

But the tanky hp pool doesn’t save them against their counters.
If condi spam is an issue why not run more condi clears?

-passive tank bruiser scrapper that is almost unkillable 1v1 (assuming the scrapper isnt completely brain dead)

Then why not +1 them? They aren’t exactly the zippiest class.

-Bristleback and Smokescale being the only used ranger pets

And they did a big stack of buffs to the other pets in the last patch.

-perma evade condi thief

Defensive thief builds run out of fuel if you know how to play against them and you don’t feed them initiative/vigor by spamming attacks at them while they dodge.

-condi warrior with insane condi damage and passives and regen for days

Warriors are dependent on a specific set of cooldowns, and they are reliant on boons. Corrupt or steal their boons to defeat them.

-dps DH trapper with heals and blocks like a bunker

DPS DH has a specific series of defensive cooldowns and if you can survive their cooldowns they will quickly run out of immunity windows and you can blow them up when their defenses are down. They are also very vulnerable to boonflip, especially unblockable Corrupt Boon, and any effect that grants Unblockable.

-Revenants with evades and blocks on almost everything.

Again, specific windows to their evades and blocks. It’s gonna get really boring just constantly saying that you should learn when their vulnerable windows are… But you should learn when their vulnerable windows are.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

ZoroDaOtter gw1 had only 8 skills, no passives and was really slow paced (you couldnt even jump) yet i always felt the combat system was really deep. So i dont think having only 10 active skills is a problem perse.

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Posted by: Hooglese.4860

Hooglese.4860

Agreed. I mean OPs specific reasons for why are misguided af but his hearts in the right place.

PvPs mechanics/style/strategy to win are fundamentally different then PvEs. pvps benefits deeply from moving quickly, sustaining against cc, conditions are extremely useful and being able to sustain/support teammates is what makes builds meta instead of just good. PvE is largely just maximising damage done to a nearly stationary target and maybe bringing one or two dedicated support chars; no enemies can do conditions to the extent players need to self cleanse for PvE, but PvP requires it because if you can’t youre dead. They couldn’t be more different. Giving the PvP team control over PvP skill balance would fix this. It makes no sense that they don’t because PvP team should be in control of PvP, but they aren’t.

PvP
revenant – Hoogles Von Boogles
Mesmer – hoogelz

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Posted by: Dr Patrik.3642

Dr Patrik.3642

You brought up some good points so I’m going to add some detail to what I said

Passives:
For this I’m talking about the traits that are worded like this:
-activate some hard damage mitigation when struck below the health threshold
-gain stability and/or break stun when cc’d
-gain protection or cc your foe when cc’d
-cure X number of condis when you have X or more condis on you
This is the game playing for you when you mess up or get outplayed. It takes away from the player that outplayed you and puts you back in a even fight just because you chose a trait to have. Also, they are everywhere and all the classes have them. Here is an example of what I’m talking about, just scroll down to “Traits with effects based on character’s health” as not all, but most of those are offenders.
Link: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health
(This links to only some of the passives as there are far more that aren’t on this list)

Lack of build diversity:
Look at metabattle, every class only has one build under meta except ele and dh. Now I think dh medi trapper should be meta but hey, I don’t control metabattle. Back in pre HoT every class had multiple builds.
Warrior: Shoutbow, Hammer/Greatsword Power, Axe/Shield Greatsword Power
Guardian: Burn, Medi Burst
Ranger: Sword/Dagger Shortbow Condi, Longbow Power
Thief: Dagger/Pistol Burst, Sword/Dagger Power, Pistol/Dagger Condi
Engineer: Pistol/Pistol Condi Kits, Pistol/Shield Condi Kits, Celestial Rifle
Elementalist: Dagger/Dagger Celestial, Dagger/Dagger Zerker, Scepter/Focus Burst
Mesmer: PU Condi, Greatsword Shatter Burst
Necromancer: Power Necro, Condi Necro, Minionmancer

Elementalist:
They heavily nerfed the only ele build that was viable (granted it was a bit to strong and deserved a nerf IMO) and didn’t really buff anything else. There is nothing for ele to experiment with. I used to main ele so believe me, I’ve tried to make it work.

Mesmer:
This is the build I have been using to farm easy wins and it has been SUPER easy. Just spawn a bunch of clones, press your shatters, refresh shatter with signet, press shatters again. It does way to much damage for how tanky it is and how much damage mitigation it has with distortion, blocks, teleports, and moa.

Necromancer:
This example I was very hesitant to include but I wanted to equally represent all classes as to avoid coming off as having a strong bias. I realize that having a large health pool is part of the way the necromancer works but with HoT, the number of stacks of condis the necromancer can pump out is insane. It is supposed to be lots of damage OVER TIME to out sustain your opponent, not do as much DPS as a marauder build but with condis instead. This is the least broken class in my opinion so don’t take this as urgent as the others.

Engineer:
Just look at the scrapper trait line, passives galore. That with the damage reduction gyro, low cd damage mitigation from hammer, and the elixir S at 25% hp + recharge heal skills all while being able to do really good damage makes this class over the top. Also they do have lots of mobility with superspeed, hammer 3, aboutface + elixergun 4, and rampage. However, right now if all they did was remove the passive elixir s + heal recharge on 25% hp AND buff some of their active skills they would be just fine.

Ranger:
I know they just buffed all the base ranger pets but have you ever seen anyone use them? No. Maybe the odd person that is trying them out or just wants to be different is but in general all rangers use the same 2 pets. Also, the pets have independent stats so the ranger can go full bunker and still have insane damage with its pets. This is something that I think should be changed. However, I am not a ranger main so I am open to being convinced of the opposite.

Thief:
This is another one I was hesitant to include but I did for the same reason as necromancer. The perma evade condi thief is a bit to much reward for the effort required IMO but it’s not that bad. So I can see some people disagreeing with this.

Warrior:
They have insane regen, insane condi pressure with only having to use a few skills, and loads of resistance. Not every class can strip boons so I guess if your part of the majority of class that can’t then oh well, your screwed. Also, that only helps if your condi, cause you cant strip adrenal health or healing signet. This just gives WAY to much reward for almost no effort.

Guardian:
Yes they rely on cd’s to stay alive, but they don’t run out, I’ve tanked 3 people on marauder dh trapper for mins at a time and never ran out of cd’s to save me. With the blocks, huge heals, and cc they can just chain it together to make any competent player almost unkillable.

Revenant:
Yes they aren’t permanently blocking/evading and there are gaps but that doesn’t mean its not to strong. They can whiff so many blocks and evades and still have enough to avoid the burst of most classes. The reason it’s not to bad right now is that spamming condis is super effective so they almost have to have as many evades/blocks as they do. So this is more for if all the others get toned down, then this should as well. BTW, I know when a rev is vulnerable, I main rev and I have beaten some really good revs with it. I just know when a class is objectively to strong, even when its my main.

Hopefully this better outlines why it is so important that the PvP devs get the ability to balance skills.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

To be fair, main issue is elite specs. They were made really strong on purpose (to promote sales) and now we have never ending powercreep :/ Worst part, since players in raids rely on elites we will never see them get really in-line with core builds.

All is Vain~
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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

Omg I never though about it before we can use all for shatters 4 times in a row without stopping. It would take serious timing but it would go f5—>f1—>f2—>f3—>f4—> signet of Illusion (SoI)—>f1—>f2—>f3—>f4-f5-f1—>f2—>f3—>f4—>(SoI)—>f4-1-f1—>f2—>f3—>f4 that’s insane I feel like a player might not make it to f4 a couple times but it it is possible with rearranged keybindings. This is insane especially with blind on shatter/heal on shatter either or.

Edit just tried it. And it is possible to do this it is VERY difficult manually. But that being said 18 shatters in a row. May be more useful in PvE because I am not sure if it is possible to use the combo flawlessly in pvp. (Thats 18 instant blinds over 5 seconds not including damage)

Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game

(edited by Zelulose.8695)

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Posted by: Seyiwaji.4082

Seyiwaji.4082

just a question why do you still play?
My wife quited and never loged in again. I play less and less and i am fed up.
But you still play and complain why?

Seriously at this point, there is no need to open the same thread over and over and again and again.
This is beyond help. You are fed up? do like everybody who could not stand it quited.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Omg I never though about it before we can use all for shatters 4 times in a row without stopping. It would take serious timing but it would go f5—>f1—>f2—>f3—>f4—> signet of Illusion (SoI)—>f1—>f2—>f3—>f4-f5-f1—>f2—>f3—>f4—>(SoI)—>f4-1-f1—>f2—>f3—>f4 that’s insane I feel like a player might not make it to f4 a couple times but it it is possible with rearranged keybindings. This is insane especially with blind on shatter/heal on shatter either or.

Edit just tried it. And it is possible to do this it is VERY difficult manually. But that being said 18 shatters in a row. May be more useful in PvE because I am not sure if it is possible to use the combo flawlessly in pvp. (Thats 18 instant blinds over 5 seconds not including damage)

Seen top mes doing something like that, maybe not 18 shatters but close enough.

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Lucred.1802

Lucred.1802

Spoken like someone who never touched Rev, as a rev we got nerfed into the ground, and now we are bugged galore.

As for ele, try experimenting a LITTLE, don;t just auto go to metabattle, try new things, from what i seen ele is still in a ok spot, just not god mode anymore.

Well this is funny cause rev is actually my main. The reason why when playing rev all the blocks and dodges don’t feel broken is that everyone else (minus poor ele) has an insane amount of stuff to use as well. If most/all of those things I’ve listed get changed except rev, it would be to strong. Hopefully that makes a bit more sense now. As for the myriad of rev bugs, that’s a whole other issue as they aren’t intended, and should get fixed, where as the points I made are things that chosen to be put into the game.

As for ele it has the magi bunker build that makes it work in the same way warrior had gunflame back in season 1 and season 2. It works to an extent but it not optimal at all. Also, don’t even try to bring up s/f burst, that has so many flaws it’s not even funny.

I main a Rev. While I certainly don’t feel like it doesn’t have a place in the meta I’m also not seeing where we have “a block or dodge on every ability”.
-the same 2 dodge rolls everyone else has, except we don’t have any abilities that grant us back endurance (unlike thief, mes, warr)
-shield 5, except unlike every other class with a shield block we can’t move during it and it doesn’t block knockbacks/stuns like scrapper shock field, guard traps, mes float, etc.
-riposting shadows, which costs half our energy, is only usable in our squishiest stance, doesn’t break out of guard traps/ele float, and is bugged to where it doesn’t actually restore any endurance
That’s it for blocks and dodges. That’s less than basically every other class. And we don’t have any invulns. And our Glint heal is broken/bugged at the moment to where condi damage doesn’t provide any extra healing, it just negates it, and only heals off direct damage.

If you’re trying to imply the evade that’s supposed to be built into unrelenting assault, the skill doesn’t work half the time and the other half it only kinda works and you can still be hit during it (IE, the evade part doesn’t trigger). And that’s assuming it doesn’t decide to go love on a barrel or get you stuck in a wall or drop you through the world to your death.

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Posted by: Dr Patrik.3642

Dr Patrik.3642

Spoken like someone who never touched Rev, as a rev we got nerfed into the ground, and now we are bugged galore.

As for ele, try experimenting a LITTLE, don;t just auto go to metabattle, try new things, from what i seen ele is still in a ok spot, just not god mode anymore.

Well this is funny cause rev is actually my main. The reason why when playing rev all the blocks and dodges don’t feel broken is that everyone else (minus poor ele) has an insane amount of stuff to use as well. If most/all of those things I’ve listed get changed except rev, it would be to strong. Hopefully that makes a bit more sense now. As for the myriad of rev bugs, that’s a whole other issue as they aren’t intended, and should get fixed, where as the points I made are things that chosen to be put into the game.

As for ele it has the magi bunker build that makes it work in the same way warrior had gunflame back in season 1 and season 2. It works to an extent but it not optimal at all. Also, don’t even try to bring up s/f burst, that has so many flaws it’s not even funny.

I main a Rev. While I certainly don’t feel like it doesn’t have a place in the meta I’m also not seeing where we have “a block or dodge on every ability”.
-the same 2 dodge rolls everyone else has, except we don’t have any abilities that grant us back endurance (unlike thief, mes, warr)
-shield 5, except unlike every other class with a shield block we can’t move during it and it doesn’t block knockbacks/stuns like scrapper shock field, guard traps, mes float, etc.
-riposting shadows, which costs half our energy, is only usable in our squishiest stance, doesn’t break out of guard traps/ele float, and is bugged to where it doesn’t actually restore any endurance
That’s it for blocks and dodges. That’s less than basically every other class. And we don’t have any invulns. And our Glint heal is broken/bugged at the moment to where condi damage doesn’t provide any extra healing, it just negates it, and only heals off direct damage.

If you’re trying to imply the evade that’s supposed to be built into unrelenting assault, the skill doesn’t work half the time and the other half it only kinda works and you can still be hit during it (IE, the evade part doesn’t trigger). And that’s assuming it doesn’t decide to go love on a barrel or get you stuck in a wall or drop you through the world to your death.

You missed a few things so let me help you out.

Rev damage mitigation:
1. Unrelenting Assault – Yes, it does bug out sometimes but it has gotten better since the July 26th patch where it was completely broken. Now, at least for me, it works every time if I don’t have quickness.
2. Crystal Hibernation – Yes, you cant move but it’s a 3 second block with a big heal attached to it.
3. Warding Rift – A 2 second block every time you switch to staff.
4. Surge of the Mists – Not only dose this evade you, but it also does a lot of damage and eats through stability making multiple stability stacks required to not get cc’d by this skill.
5. Riposting Shadows – a Spammable stun break that restores endurance and clears cripple, chill , and immobilize. Also, it only costs 30 energy which is less than a third of the total.
6. Infuse Light – Immune to all damage and heal from it.
7. (Optional) Soothing Bastion – Another Crystal Hibernation.

So there is a lot, and IF most/all of the other classes get addressed, then these should be looked at as well.

Edit: I don’t know where you got the “a block or dodge on every ability” quote but both the person I was responding to and I never said that. Also, falsely quoting someone is incredibly dishonest and greatly discredits your argument. That is pretty disgusting behavior.

(edited by Dr Patrik.3642)

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Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

Spoken like someone who never touched Rev, as a rev we got nerfed into the ground, and now we are bugged galore.

As for ele, try experimenting a LITTLE, don;t just auto go to metabattle, try new things, from what i seen ele is still in a ok spot, just not god mode anymore.

Well this is funny cause rev is actually my main. The reason why when playing rev all the blocks and dodges don’t feel broken is that everyone else (minus poor ele) has an insane amount of stuff to use as well. If most/all of those things I’ve listed get changed except rev, it would be to strong. Hopefully that makes a bit more sense now. As for the myriad of rev bugs, that’s a whole other issue as they aren’t intended, and should get fixed, where as the points I made are things that chosen to be put into the game.

As for ele it has the magi bunker build that makes it work in the same way warrior had gunflame back in season 1 and season 2. It works to an extent but it not optimal at all. Also, don’t even try to bring up s/f burst, that has so many flaws it’s not even funny.

I main a Rev. While I certainly don’t feel like it doesn’t have a place in the meta I’m also not seeing where we have “a block or dodge on every ability”.
-the same 2 dodge rolls everyone else has, except we don’t have any abilities that grant us back endurance (unlike thief, mes, warr)
-shield 5, except unlike every other class with a shield block we can’t move during it and it doesn’t block knockbacks/stuns like scrapper shock field, guard traps, mes float, etc.
-riposting shadows, which costs half our energy, is only usable in our squishiest stance, doesn’t break out of guard traps/ele float, and is bugged to where it doesn’t actually restore any endurance
That’s it for blocks and dodges. That’s less than basically every other class. And we don’t have any invulns. And our Glint heal is broken/bugged at the moment to where condi damage doesn’t provide any extra healing, it just negates it, and only heals off direct damage.

If you’re trying to imply the evade that’s supposed to be built into unrelenting assault, the skill doesn’t work half the time and the other half it only kinda works and you can still be hit during it (IE, the evade part doesn’t trigger). And that’s assuming it doesn’t decide to go love on a barrel or get you stuck in a wall or drop you through the world to your death.

You missed a few things so let me help you out.

Rev damage mitigation:
1. Unrelenting Assault – Yes, it does bug out sometimes but it has gotten better since the July 26th patch where it was completely broken. Now, at least for me, it works every time if I don’t have quickness.
2. Crystal Hibernation – Yes, you cant move but it’s a 3 second block with a big heal attached to it.
3. Warding Rift – A 2 second block every time you switch to staff.
4. Surge of the Mists – Not only dose this evade you, but it also does a lot of damage and eats through stability making multiple stability stacks required to not get cc’d by this skill.
5. Riposting Shadows – a Spammable stun break that restores endurance and clears cripple, chill , and immobilize. Also, it only costs 30 energy which is less than a third of the total.
6. Infuse Light – Immune to all damage and heal from it.
7. (Optional) Soothing Bastion – Another Crystal Hibernation.

So there is a lot, and IF most/all of the other classes get addressed, then these should be looked at as well.

Edit: I don’t know where you got the “a block or dodge on every ability” quote but both the person I was responding to and I never said that. Also, falsely quoting someone is incredibly dishonest and greatly discredits your argument. That is pretty disgusting behavior.

SotM can only remove 1 stack of stability. Stability can only be removed 1 stack every 0.75s .

Also everything on Rev is balanced around having this amount of active mitigation.
A simple evidence of this is the overall lack of self healing, even in the healing focused legend (Ventari). Therefore you can’t remove much of it without killing anything but shiro/glint.

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari

(edited by Varezenem.2813)

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Posted by: Jourdelune.7456

Jourdelune.7456

I don’t think we should blame the common balance for everything you listed there. Keep in mind that the balance team, with HoT, had mostly pvp in mind when designing the new professions (scrapper presence on point, daredevil finishers and CC, reaper damage mitigation, etc…).

However, there is some truth in what you say. The most obvious proof is the amulet removal. If GW2 was pvp only, cleric would never have been removed. Grouch said himself that the amulet was removed because it was a factor he had direct control about, while naturally the better solution would have been a nerf to ele sustain, or at least to ele team support. But that’s up to the balance team.

I’ve always been sceptical about this “separated balance” issue, but this made me wonder. I don’t know Anet’s internal politics, so I don’t know how the balance team works, but Grouch’s post certainly suggested that the pvp team doesn’t have total control over balance, which is problem.

I am not sure that I would trust a team with “feeling” of removing options (amulet) when the balanced team did the nerf to Ele sustain in the first place.

Balanced team did the job on PVP feedback team. Then PVP team decide to remove Cleric from feeling. Now bunker support build are dead. We are in a real bruisers only archetype meta.

I know everybody love Sales people, but since I am an IT guy with math grades… I know that usually, Sales chose to make people happy, while IT make rules to keep things “balanced”.

HoT OP spec is to make more Sales. Remember?

It would be better to have the balanced team communicating with us, then letting the Sales guyz doing it while they blame the math guyz that did their job….

The only decent player in Anet staff is Grouch and he always play bruiser like build.

Dal Aï Lhama (Tempest), Dal Lahu Akbar (DH), Lord Dhal of Dharma (Scrapper) 12k+ spvp games.
Former Team Captain of ggwp (ESL weekly), GLHF (AG), MIST[CORE] spvp alliance guild.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GuildWars2PvPTeams/

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Posted by: Aza.2105

Aza.2105

They won’t do it because “it would be too confusing for new players” <<< i still get a laugh from this one irl.

So anet is saying all new players are stupid and have difficulty learning if a skill works differently in pvp. Wow that is just sad.

Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10

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Posted by: Jourdelune.7456

Jourdelune.7456

Spoken like someone who never touched Rev, as a rev we got nerfed into the ground, and now we are bugged galore.

As for ele, try experimenting a LITTLE, don;t just auto go to metabattle, try new things, from what i seen ele is still in a ok spot, just not god mode anymore.

Well this is funny cause rev is actually my main. The reason why when playing rev all the blocks and dodges don’t feel broken is that everyone else (minus poor ele) has an insane amount of stuff to use as well. If most/all of those things I’ve listed get changed except rev, it would be to strong. Hopefully that makes a bit more sense now. As for the myriad of rev bugs, that’s a whole other issue as they aren’t intended, and should get fixed, where as the points I made are things that chosen to be put into the game.

As for ele it has the magi bunker build that makes it work in the same way warrior had gunflame back in season 1 and season 2. It works to an extent but it not optimal at all. Also, don’t even try to bring up s/f burst, that has so many flaws it’s not even funny.

I main a Rev. While I certainly don’t feel like it doesn’t have a place in the meta I’m also not seeing where we have “a block or dodge on every ability”.
-the same 2 dodge rolls everyone else has, except we don’t have any abilities that grant us back endurance (unlike thief, mes, warr)
-shield 5, except unlike every other class with a shield block we can’t move during it and it doesn’t block knockbacks/stuns like scrapper shock field, guard traps, mes float, etc.
-riposting shadows, which costs half our energy, is only usable in our squishiest stance, doesn’t break out of guard traps/ele float, and is bugged to where it doesn’t actually restore any endurance
That’s it for blocks and dodges. That’s less than basically every other class. And we don’t have any invulns. And our Glint heal is broken/bugged at the moment to where condi damage doesn’t provide any extra healing, it just negates it, and only heals off direct damage.

If you’re trying to imply the evade that’s supposed to be built into unrelenting assault, the skill doesn’t work half the time and the other half it only kinda works and you can still be hit during it (IE, the evade part doesn’t trigger). And that’s assuming it doesn’t decide to go love on a barrel or get you stuck in a wall or drop you through the world to your death.

You missed a few things so let me help you out.

Rev damage mitigation:
1. Unrelenting Assault – Yes, it does bug out sometimes but it has gotten better since the July 26th patch where it was completely broken. Now, at least for me, it works every time if I don’t have quickness.
2. Crystal Hibernation – Yes, you cant move but it’s a 3 second block with a big heal attached to it.
3. Warding Rift – A 2 second block every time you switch to staff.
4. Surge of the Mists – Not only dose this evade you, but it also does a lot of damage and eats through stability making multiple stability stacks required to not get cc’d by this skill.
5. Riposting Shadows – a Spammable stun break that restores endurance and clears cripple, chill , and immobilize. Also, it only costs 30 energy which is less than a third of the total.
6. Infuse Light – Immune to all damage and heal from it.
7. (Optional) Soothing Bastion – Another Crystal Hibernation.

So there is a lot, and IF most/all of the other classes get addressed, then these should be looked at as well.

Edit: I don’t know where you got the “a block or dodge on every ability” quote but both the person I was responding to and I never said that. Also, falsely quoting someone is incredibly dishonest and greatly discredits your argument. That is pretty disgusting behavior.

Good points, you need to post that into the REV forum, so the balanced team got some feedback from that.

PVP boards have so much spam going on, that it’s hard to follow if you don’t sit on it, really.

Dal Aï Lhama (Tempest), Dal Lahu Akbar (DH), Lord Dhal of Dharma (Scrapper) 12k+ spvp games.
Former Team Captain of ggwp (ESL weekly), GLHF (AG), MIST[CORE] spvp alliance guild.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GuildWars2PvPTeams/

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Posted by: Burtnik.5218

Burtnik.5218

Spoken like someone who never touched Rev, as a rev we got nerfed into the ground, and now we are bugged galore.

As for ele, try experimenting a LITTLE, don;t just auto go to metabattle, try new things, from what i seen ele is still in a ok spot, just not god mode anymore.

Well this is funny cause rev is actually my main. The reason why when playing rev all the blocks and dodges don’t feel broken is that everyone else (minus poor ele) has an insane amount of stuff to use as well. If most/all of those things I’ve listed get changed except rev, it would be to strong. Hopefully that makes a bit more sense now. As for the myriad of rev bugs, that’s a whole other issue as they aren’t intended, and should get fixed, where as the points I made are things that chosen to be put into the game.

As for ele it has the magi bunker build that makes it work in the same way warrior had gunflame back in season 1 and season 2. It works to an extent but it not optimal at all. Also, don’t even try to bring up s/f burst, that has so many flaws it’s not even funny.

I main a Rev. While I certainly don’t feel like it doesn’t have a place in the meta I’m also not seeing where we have “a block or dodge on every ability”.
-the same 2 dodge rolls everyone else has, except we don’t have any abilities that grant us back endurance (unlike thief, mes, warr)
-shield 5, except unlike every other class with a shield block we can’t move during it and it doesn’t block knockbacks/stuns like scrapper shock field, guard traps, mes float, etc.
-riposting shadows, which costs half our energy, is only usable in our squishiest stance, doesn’t break out of guard traps/ele float, and is bugged to where it doesn’t actually restore any endurance
That’s it for blocks and dodges. That’s less than basically every other class. And we don’t have any invulns. And our Glint heal is broken/bugged at the moment to where condi damage doesn’t provide any extra healing, it just negates it, and only heals off direct damage.

If you’re trying to imply the evade that’s supposed to be built into unrelenting assault, the skill doesn’t work half the time and the other half it only kinda works and you can still be hit during it (IE, the evade part doesn’t trigger). And that’s assuming it doesn’t decide to go love on a barrel or get you stuck in a wall or drop you through the world to your death.

You missed a few things so let me help you out.

Rev damage mitigation:
1. Unrelenting Assault – Yes, it does bug out sometimes but it has gotten better since the July 26th patch where it was completely broken. Now, at least for me, it works every time if I don’t have quickness.
2. Crystal Hibernation – Yes, you cant move but it’s a 3 second block with a big heal attached to it.
3. Warding Rift – A 2 second block every time you switch to staff.
4. Surge of the Mists – Not only dose this evade you, but it also does a lot of damage and eats through stability making multiple stability stacks required to not get cc’d by this skill.
5. Riposting Shadows – a Spammable stun break that restores endurance and clears cripple, chill , and immobilize. Also, it only costs 30 energy which is less than a third of the total.
6. Infuse Light – Immune to all damage and heal from it.
7. (Optional) Soothing Bastion – Another Crystal Hibernation.

So there is a lot, and IF most/all of the other classes get addressed, then these should be looked at as well.

Edit: I don’t know where you got the “a block or dodge on every ability” quote but both the person I was responding to and I never said that. Also, falsely quoting someone is incredibly dishonest and greatly discredits your argument. That is pretty disgusting behavior.

1. Its working even better when you have confusion on yourself.
2. Crystal hibernation has big heal? 2k is big for you? Hahaha, sword offhand over trash shield anyday anytime
3. Literally this block and SOTM is everything staff has. Its another rather trash weapon which consumes tons of energy. Its neither good for dps nor support, its used mostly due to block
4. See 3
5. “Cost only 30 energy” you o realize that after a swap we have 50 energy and we wont reach 100 energy.. like never? At best you can cast it 2x in a row at the cost of not using anything but autoatk
6. At the cost of healing skill. Useless ability vs anyone with brain. Dont even get me started on trash Shiro heal that can be reflected ignoring other issues with it.
7. Terrible af trait, it does more harm than good since the nerf to heal from shield 5.

Just to note, warrior shield is superior to rev shield. There is literally no comprasion whatsoever. Lower cd’s, 2 sec stun, 3 sec mobile block..
Something else?

Salt, salt, moar salt. So salty like fries from McDonald!
Playing Smite since mid s2, f broken gw2.

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Posted by: BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

They won’t do it because “it would be too confusing for new players” <<< i still get a laugh from this one irl.

I lol as well that the Devs think the average player is equivalent to a potato.

one thing they could implement in the game and force new players to do is idk a tutorial that explains things, but meh.

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Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

They won’t do it because “it would be too confusing for new players” <<< i still get a laugh from this one irl.

I lol as well that the Devs think the average player is equivalent to a potato.

one thing they could implement in the game and force new players to do is idk a tutorial that explains things, but meh.

From what I’ve seen I’d have to agree with the devs though….

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari

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Posted by: Jourdelune.7456

Jourdelune.7456

They won’t do it because “it would be too confusing for new players” <<< i still get a laugh from this one irl.

I lol as well that the Devs think the average player is equivalent to a potato.

one thing they could implement in the game and force new players to do is idk a tutorial that explains things, but meh.

I think the tutorial is not enough.

Too many players know what to do, but play for their Glory Score. (individual points on the map)

The Scoreboard should be better tune to get people playing the game properly. But it’s not.

Dal Aï Lhama (Tempest), Dal Lahu Akbar (DH), Lord Dhal of Dharma (Scrapper) 12k+ spvp games.
Former Team Captain of ggwp (ESL weekly), GLHF (AG), MIST[CORE] spvp alliance guild.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GuildWars2PvPTeams/

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

They won’t do it because “it would be too confusing for new players” <<< i still get a laugh from this one irl.

I lol as well that the Devs think the average player is equivalent to a potato.

one thing they could implement in the game and force new players to do is idk a tutorial that explains things, but meh.

From what I’ve seen I’d have to agree with the devs though….

Yeah, and now every class is pretty much on auto-pilot with passives and short CD instant defensives. LET’S BALANCE GAME FOR PEOPLE PLAYING WITH ONE TOE WHILE WATCHING NETFLIX!

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

They won’t do it because “it would be too confusing for new players” <<< i still get a laugh from this one irl.

I lol as well that the Devs think the average player is equivalent to a potato.

one thing they could implement in the game and force new players to do is idk a tutorial that explains things, but meh.

I think the tutorial is not enough.

Too many players know what to do, but play for their Glory Score. (individual points on the map)

The Scoreboard should be better tune to get people playing the game properly. But it’s not.

I never mentioned scoreboards or the like, my post was solely about Devs thinking players are too stupid to understand skills are split between gamemodes and one way to combat that would have an in depth tutorial that explained skills act differently between PvE/PvP/WvW

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Posted by: Dr Patrik.3642

Dr Patrik.3642

As for skill splitting, the developers have been doing that for a long time. Signet of Restoration on Ele and Cyclone Axe on Warrior are a few examples of skills that used to be split a long time ago but were made the same (usually to be the same as the better version). However, now they say that they have the tech to split skills in PvP, which is odd because they already did that. It seems to me like there is something they aren’t telling us about why they are so hesitant to split skills. Splitting skills just seems like such an obvious move to the community, so why isn’t it obvious to the developers? For so long the developers have refused to do it and been playing the “it’s to complicated for new players” card. Doing that seems like they are just playing dumb and they don’t want to make their actual reason(s) public.

If anyone has any info on this or developer statements about this I would love to be made aware of them if anyone would like to post a reply.

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Posted by: Varezenem.2813

Varezenem.2813

As for skill splitting, the developers have been doing that for a long time. Signet of Restoration on Ele and Cyclone Axe on Warrior are a few examples of skills that used to be split a long time ago but were made the same (usually to be the same as the better version). However, now they say that they have the tech to split skills in PvP, which is odd because they already did that. It seems to me like there is something they aren’t telling us about why they are so hesitant to split skills. Splitting skills just seems like such an obvious move to the community, so why isn’t it obvious to the developers? For so long the developers have refused to do it and been playing the “it’s to complicated for new players” card. Doing that seems like they are just playing dumb and they don’t want to make their actual reason(s) public.

If anyone has any info on this or developer statements about this I would love to be made aware of them if anyone would like to post a reply.

“We believe that most balance problems are more noticeable in specific game modes but affect all of them”-Karl? Reddit AMA 3/5 ?? (Can’t find the source)
“We are able to split skills with less effort than before”

This is the reason they gave as interpreted by me.

Exact quotes

We are not fully against skill splitting between the different game modes but it adds a lot of overhead to every balance and design decision. While it does give you another tool box it does lead to optimizing skills heavily for each game type which does make power creep.Its on the table and it’s something we may use in the future

-Iaiah Cartwright; mar 4 reddit

The Lesh Prince recently developed some tech that makes skill-splitting more feasible than it was previously – you’ll see some PvP (and PvE) splits in the next balance update. It’s important to understand that changes will still need to be global, but we’ll definitely have a bit more flexibility moving forward.

Keeping parity between modes when possible is important to us – but when it’s not feasible we’ll look at splits.

Senbu Ren[Wind]
Herald of Ventari

(edited by Varezenem.2813)

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Posted by: BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

They said they don’t want to confuse the players with splitting skills, aka players=potatoes.

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

You guys want to give balance responsibilities to the team that does matchmaking? :o

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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

If only we were given the options and able to vote on the changes.

Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game

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Posted by: Jourdelune.7456

Jourdelune.7456

You guys want to give balance responsibilities to the team that does matchmaking? :o

Yes, the Sales dept. are surely better to do that than the math guyz out there. Kappa.

Dal Aï Lhama (Tempest), Dal Lahu Akbar (DH), Lord Dhal of Dharma (Scrapper) 12k+ spvp games.
Former Team Captain of ggwp (ESL weekly), GLHF (AG), MIST[CORE] spvp alliance guild.
https://www.reddit.com/r/GuildWars2PvPTeams/

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Posted by: Spartacus.3192

Spartacus.3192

They said they don’t want to confuse the players with splitting skills, aka players=potatoes.

LOL i always thought that excuse was a joke. its responsibile for the ridculously restrictive mechanism of only allowing us to choose an amulet and rune for pvp. It no doubt was at partially responsible for the disastrous June 2015 patch of restricted trait choices.

Your typical average gamer -
“Buff my main class, nerf everything else. "