Guild Wars 2

How are you going to maintain the “shaving” philosophy with such infrequent updates? Or has the philosophy shifted, again, as it relates to balance?

I honestly believe the balance devs truly think this game is very balanced w/ regards to pvp and they secretly just wait to see us “counter the new meta”

Spirit rangers op? Nah, give it 3 months and the pvp’ers will figure out how to counter it. Necro op? Let’s remove 1 bleed stack and wait for them to figure out how to counter it. Warrior OP? Nah let’s give it 8 months and if they’re still OP at that point in time we will knock nerf heal sig by 8%…. maybe…

Honestly I’d rather see the oppossite happening. I’d love to see weekly changes that drastically effect the meta. Force us to adapt to new changes (See: FLUXES FROM GW1). Don’t force us to play the same stale meta on the same stale maps in the same stale game mode for 2 years. The only reason metas are even changing is because people are so bored of the current system and playing the same class X,XXX matches in a row.

Guild Wars 2 PvP hasn’t had a decent cut or trim in so long that it’s now a tangled and knotted mess. And instead of grabbing their razor max 2000 and diving straight in to fix this mess, Anet is simply choosing to wash and condition it with reward changes and a little maintenance patch. Sure, this might give PvP a little bit of shine again, but it won’t fix the real problems. Give it two weeks and those changes will begin to lose their fresh sparkle and people will once more see PvP for the greasy unkempt mess it really is.

Lux.7169:

I honestly believe the balance devs truly think this game is very balanced w/ regards to pvp and they secretly just wait to see us “counter the new meta”

Spirit rangers op? Nah, give it 3 months and the pvp’ers will figure out how to counter it. Necro op? Let’s remove 1 bleed stack and wait for them to figure out how to counter it. Warrior OP? Nah let’s give it 8 months and if they’re still OP at that point in time we will knock nerf heal sig by 8%…. maybe…

Honestly I’d rather see the oppossite happening. I’d love to see weekly changes that drastically effect the meta. Force us to adapt to new changes (See: FLUXES FROM GW1). Don’t force us to play the same stale meta on the same stale maps in the same stale game mode for 2 years. The only reason metas are even changing is because people are so bored of the current system and playing the same class X,XXX matches in a row.

You missed out thief, which is most OP of all and has about 3 different and all brokenly OP specs (at least)

This is one for the community coordinator. I don’t think it’s revealing too much to ask which philosophy they are working towards. Are the next round of updates, after the featured patch, going to be quick shaves or is it back to one patch a year?

If I shaved once every three to four months…..

more on topic, maintaining this new patch cycle and only doing minor changes to class balance doesn’t seem like it will work out very well. Especially if you don’t have a test server or at least dialogue about coming changes.

Samhayn.2385:

If I shaved once every three to four months…..

more on topic, maintaining this new patch cycle and only doing minor changes to class balance doesn’t seem like it will work out very well. Especially if you don’t have a test server or at least dialogue about coming changes.

If the balance patches are so infrequent, you cannot maintain a “shaving” philosophy. Let’s take a look at where we are currently. It will close to 8+ months, since the last major patch, and when the feature patch is released. With the pacing being this slow, this feature patch will have to have MAJOR changes to professions. You’re talking about huge changes that would essentially be equal to that of a major content patch/expansion from other MMO’s (being that’s what they wanted to mirror). So far, those “previews” are not major changes.

Pyriall.5027:

Samhayn.2385:

If I shaved once every three to four months…..

more on topic, maintaining this new patch cycle and only doing minor changes to class balance doesn’t seem like it will work out very well. Especially if you don’t have a test server or at least dialogue about coming changes.

If the balance patches are so infrequent, you cannot maintain a “shaving” philosophy. Let’s take a look at where we are currently. It will close to 8+ months, since the last major patch, and when the feature patch is released. With the pacing being this slow, this feature patch will have to have MAJOR changes to professions. You’re talking about huge changes that would essentially be equal to that of a major content patch/expansion from other MMO’s (being that’s what they wanted to mirror). So far, those “previews” are not major changes.

all true, we do need to see how huge a change the sigil and rune changes are but then again we have heard very little about them.

Pyriall.5027:

If the balance patches are so infrequent, you cannot maintain a “shaving” philosophy. Let’s take a look at where we are currently. It will close to 8+ months, since the last major patch, and when the feature patch is released. With the pacing being this slow, this feature patch will have to have MAJOR changes to professions. You’re talking about huge changes that would essentially be equal to that of a major content patch/expansion from other MMO’s (being that’s what they wanted to mirror). So far, those “previews” are not major changes.

I don’t think they have the resources to pull off a major change (or what most of the community would consider major) in such a short amount of time.

At the very least though, I expect the major Problems to be solved.

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

So you are saying you guys are finally going to nerf something like healing signet? And finally bring some real significant changes to the elementalist or are guys padding yourself in the back for bringing a 90 second Cd skill only to 75, while other higher armor classes have a more effective version?

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

Pretty easy to believe not much is going on considering the lack of feedback from the devs themselves…. I don’t understand what the point of keeping it all under wrap is… when will devs learn they need to collaborate with the player base in order to help with things like balancing?

We get very little to no feedback at all.
Theres a 40 page ranger CDI with an abysmal amount of feedback from developers.
The main reason why majority of the people reading the forums seriously believe anet is “not doing much” is because of the past history. Look at this game since release , what on earth makes you think the player base actually believes you guys are actually doing something in regards to some of these glaring issues?

how does it take 8 months to figure out healing sig needs a nerf?
or the very obvious broken class that is ranger since release?
broken stealth builds , broken condi

the community has given un measurable amount of feedback, not so much from anet side….

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

Bolded the interesting part. A while back, it was stated by a dev that the team DIDN’T want to wait for feature builds to apply balance, bug fix, and polish updates. That they would apply them when they were needed, and leave the “big patches” for the content updates.

Why has this been thrown into the fire?

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

I would think that the “mistake” would be to assume the patch will be done in a manner that represents what the players want, because common sense and past experience would dictate otherwise.

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

Allie, we know the next patch is going to be a major one, with a complete overhaul of the gear system as well as all the regular balancing.

However, you ARE still doing regular skill balancing alongside the bigger changes, so I’m wondering: have you really considered the wisdom of bundling a skill balance patch alongside such a drastic overhaul of the game? Won’t it be extremely difficult to see the effects of your skill balance when it comes alongside something as major and gamechanging as that?

I know your internal testing and certification process for new updates must be onerous, and that the twice-monthly schedule of the LW content has put a huge strain on it (especially with the last few massive chunks of content you’ve released). However, considering most of the more, ahem, “controversial” skills and traits have already been split into pvp versions, and you’ve expressed your willingness to do more splitting, I don’t see why minor regular skill balances have to be such a major undertaking that they can’t be integrated into your existing 2-week release schedule! After all, you used to have major bug fixing and polish releases every single week for months after release, so I assume you have the processes and the manpower in place to run such a schedule.

Bottom line, I don’t think a new balance patch every 4 months (last one was December 13, next one is in April!) justifies you using the present continuous tense when you speak of “balancing”: a lot of us feel abandoned, and it’s about more than just skill balancing – there are major bugs that haven’t been fixed in nearly a year! If releasing minor pvp patches is so much work that it’s impossible to do on a more frequent schedule, then maybe you guys should have a serious word with management and ask that the patch testing and certification process be redesigned before the last few pvpers finally quit.

“Allie Murdock.8152:
FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.
The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.
Thanks for the feedback "

It’s not about not sharing what you’re going to do, it’s more about taking you SO LONG to actually get anything done.

That’s the point.

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

What is the new balance philosophy? Are you guys going to go back to shaving or huge impactful changes? Do you believe that the once every 8 months will approach can sustain the “shaving” philosophy?

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

Are you balancing it Allie? I mean, truly, are you balancing it? Powerr the other day even said you guys were changing so much in this next build that you weren’t too sure how the balance would play out.

That tells me you aren’t actively balancing it. It tells me you are tossing everything in a blender and waiting to see what comes out.

I want my PvP to be a Chateaubriand, not meatloaf.

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

Can I ask why everything with the next change has been so hush-hush? We had so much great communication before the Dec 10th patch, it’s kind of a shame to be left in the dark now…

Maybe its not really shaving, but chiseling.

SkiTz.4590:

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

Pretty easy to believe not much is going on considering the lack of feedback from the devs themselves….

You are making it harder than it is. It is pretty easy to believe when certain classes have been out of the meta for nearly a year and half.

Telling us stuff is infinitely less important than doing stuff.

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

FYI we (at least I) don’t think that you guys aren’t doing much for pvp BUT we’d rather have constant updates with small changes and tweaks than having to wait 3+ months for the “huge update that fixes all”…

Big patches with allot of changes have high a risk of messing up, making skills classes extremely OP/UP in the blink of a eye thus making more harm then good to the game.
Even though you test things internally, you have to admit that sometimes things are not quite as you though they were…

With constant small updates you can actually see the effect of them in the game and “re-tweak” if necessary. Lower risk of messing up and if you do, we know that the next update is not months away and will digest it better.

Allie Murdock.8152:

FYI, we don’t think it’s balanced. That’s why we’re still balancing it.

The OP actually makes a good point, though. For this particular feature build, we have not shared much about what’s going on, we get that. Don’t mistake that with we’re not doing much, though.

Thanks for the feedback

People think you aren’t doing much, because you AREN’T doing much. Nobody’s “mistaking” anything. It’s months and months between tone deaf updates and you expect people to cut you some slack for the next one (whenever that is) based on what exactly? The complete lack of transparency and abysmal track record so far coupled with a deluge of accountability dodging posts filled with PR doublespeak, non answers, and thread locking?

Im not sure why everyone is so hurt about not getting a preview of the balance. I mean if you remember the last few previews, they didnt take our feedback anyway.

The october and dec balance patches had previews, between the preview and the final release barely anything changed .

That’s what I’ve been saying on some other threads.

The shaving balance philosophy is very underwhelming and unsatisfying when patches can take up to 4 months to release. It’s a cool philosophy for a monthly or 2-weekly balancing pass pacing, as it allows devs to slowly but safely adjust the meta and analyze the consequences, but because shaving is a very safe process and does not always brings enough results, having to wait 4 months for something like that will feel almost always underwhelming.

The previewed changes we know of so far would be perfect to be released the next patch following their confirmation. Slow, “safe” changes that would carefully adjust the meta into a more acceptable state, and hook us deeper into pvp while we wait for the feature patch.

Instead, Anet decided that those shaving adjustments had to be bundled with the big patch and not before, leaving pvp at its current, decaying state, and taking two big risks unnecessarily: the risk of those changes not being enough after such a long wait, and the risk of those changes being meaningless after whatever’s to come that can potentially change the entire meta.

Maybe Anet thinks that putting everything in a single update makes it more exciting? Well, then I’ll disagree in this specific case. Those small adjustments will be overshadowed and go mostly unnoticed in the tide of whatever massive changes that might come, but those very same small adjustments would be a preciosity to us all instead, if they were to come in earlier.

Hopefully, in the future, big feature patches and small balance shaving changes are not bundled together by any reason other than coincidence.

The so-called ‘shaving philosophy’. Shave a little off with no regards to where hair grows, how fast it grows, and whether or not a hair growth really seems appropriate in that location. And then mysteriously forget to shave for a few months, while using hair growth therapies in other months; while not checking whether those things fit the philosophy. For the time being, there is now a beard on the neck, scraped off skin on the cheeks, and gouged eyes from shaving eyelashes. Nose and ear hair has grown out of control because it can’t be gotten to by shaving. Hair on the head, which likely should have been clipped or trimmed, was shaved as well; which gives the outward appearance of a dying patient, instead of the combat depth and potential the game once had.

The point of this analogy being: you have plenty of different tools available to attempt a certain task, and not just an appealing sounding one that you make out to be your central tenet. (The razor should at least be paired with a mirror. And then some scissors and a comb.)

People might certainly have thought of this [one-size-fits-all] strategy as being “safe” or “conservative”, but ultimately, the current approach is nothing close to those things. Jokes aside about conservatives not cutting beards, and detailed analysis aside about whether that’s what those people really are (long beard and hair on men is seen in Japan as being a part of radical communist politics). Some people might even be irrationally telling themselves “The slow and steady approach has now been tried and proven to fail; it’s time for randomness and extreme measures”. But that would only be because they were never ‘shaving’ types of people in the first place; they always felt more comfortable being black-or-white and waiting for any chance to promote an opposite ideology. They were just looking for a moment to rationalize and justify it.

By the way, analysis in beta should have pointed out that “dodge” is at the center of the game’s defensive ‘core’, and that more tweaking needed to be done to meld strategy and action together around it. GW2 doesn’t have it’s primary defensive stat itemized aside from things that provide vigor. And “crowd control break” comes in second as a necessary defense; a position cemented by the ridiculous immobilize duration stacking buff and maps with cliffs, which don’t look anything like a shave. For that matter, Skyhammer doesn’t look like a shave either; it looks like a map where even more complex mechanics are added on to confuse players who don’t have a basic understanding of the game, and a map where veteran players know a sneaky pull or pushback is coming but have too many angles to worry about things coming from.

As an addendum, since this is not addressed to everybody, the main reason I even came to this overhyped game is because I know a F2P variant is the only type of video game that can hit e-sport potential. This game only fails because the people wanting it to succeed are outnumbered, and the company making it wants F2P to look terrible so people feel like subscription games and Pay2Win are the only solutions left in town. Make your own decisions about whether you want an environment where you can grow through niche competition designed to be fairer to you, or whether you just want to compete as yet another ‘industry entertainer’ and commercial for fancy graphics and time-occupying grinds.

It just happens that they would have to much work to split pve/wvw and spvp, because they dont have the resources to do it.

Otherwise it would be very easly fixed without bothering the cashcow players, but since it does you dont get the changes you need but the changes they can give without disturbing the players that actually give them profits.

I don’t think ANET has a philosophy since they keep changing their stances. Change can be good but when you have no direction then it’s bad.

I took a whole year off from the game and only came back 2 months ago and it’s sad and pathetic to see that the game has not improved much and even has gotten worse in other areas.

Infrequent balance updates are a killer. It makes for a stale game and it makes the player base feel like there’s nothing going on, which there isn’t. Why in the kitten stick are you tying balance updates to feature patches?