Guild Wars 2

Hey!

I am here to discuss about how traits work for PvP and hold back build diversity in the PvP scene.

The ‘problem’
ArenaNet is making the game more deadly in PvP. This is not necessarily a bad thing. However the downside is that this forces us heavily into defensive lines. For example:
- Engineer: Inventions/Elixirs
- Elementalist: Earth/Water
- Warrior: Defense
- Mesmer: Inspiration
etc.

Being forced into certain trait lines holds back creativity and build diversity.

The ‘Philosophy’
I remember when elite specialisations were previewed. ArenaNet made a great logic in their trait lines where there would be seperate roles. For example the Berserker:
- Top line = raw damage
- Middle = condition damage
- Bottom= survivability

However we do not see this back in the core trait lines. Rather, they are designed around a certain role. For example, engineer’s trait line Firearms is focussed on increasing damage, wether it is through condi or raw. However their is barely any form of support or survivability.

The direction
Just as a disclaimer, I do not think I have the perfect solution and I realise very well that this might be a deeply rooted problem which isn’t fixed easily. However I think it could be healthy to at least suggest a direction to go in.

Trait lines should all offer a form of defense or support but also offense, all in a different matter. Trait lines however can still have a certain flavor. Not every trait line should be as good in defensive options as others, however they should offer at least some.

I would love to hear your opinions about this.
Please keep the discussion healthy

Greetings, Fvux.

Hello,

I discussed the same problem a short while ago in this topic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Discussion-the-trait-system/first#post6134657

The problem that you point out is a sincere one. The ’’solution’’ I came up with, is going back to (a version of) the old trait system. With that system you had more possibilities to mix up different defensive and offensive traits from different trait lines. You also could pick for example a Master trait in a Grandmaster spot, which reduces the problem of GMtraits that actually do not synergize very well with the rest of their traitline (for example the Reaper traitline). Forcing you fully into a traitline in the situation as it is nowadays does not stimulate any build differentiation, especially when almost everyone picks the new elite specialization as their first traitline. Then you only have 2 traitlines left, and it is almost always the case that only 1 or 2 out of the 5 other traitlines synergize with the elite specialization that you just chose. Conclusion: people always end up with nearly the same build.

PvE players would have a fit. You don’t really need to trait in defense for pve. As an example If you devoted the bottom trait line to survivability they would cry that you’re ruining their build diversity. They would probably be right. I agree with @HeadCrowned that the old trait system may be a better fix. Overall I’ve been able to find builds with the current trait system that work for me. I use 3 different builds. One for spvp one for wvw and one for pve.

Honestly, what you propose would solve a lot of balance issues and the traitlines themselves would feel less random and easier to put in perspective, but unfortunately it does require a lot of work. Added to this, I hope they might address the minor traits too. Depending on what you want to build, you’ll often be forced to take useless minor traits. They should be made to benefit any build.

PvE balance is non-existent and should never be an issue. You can always rebalance the encounters for them to be consistently challenging – you can’t do this with PvP and that’s why it should always take priority.

It’s obvious the game is quite a mess to balance with stats that feel more like a hindrance than a tool to build your profession around, condi requires one stat to be effective while power 3(for pvp), uneven health/armor and wonky/outdated weapons. Unless they invest resources into a real balance rework, Gw2 will never be taken seriously as an ESport/competitive game.

This might Fix how many classes abuse sustain. I wouldn’t mind seeing a change like this.

I mostly disagree with your suggestions. Actually very often, offensive traitlines contain defensive elements (for example, you could argue that for a thief, deadly art is a better defensive line than acrobatics). And the “class mechanics” line as well as elite spec line usually contain a mix of offense and defense.

And the results are hybrids. All the classes playing currently in PvP (except ele or thief) are playing hybrids. A lot of sustain, a lot of damage, a lot of control, a lot of support etc…. They are good at everything, little one man armies.

If people play defensively instead of offensively it is because they feel they get more benefits from the defensive traits. This is partly the fault of the “conquest” framework and also partly because those defensive traits are just too good to pass.

The one thing which I agree with you and yet not fully is the condition cleanse. Many of the defensive lines are mostly here to survive conditions (inspiration, alchemy). And this is just because of how unbalanced conditions are if not cleansed properly. But I would rather solve it by a redesign of conditions (my suggestion would be: damaging conditions cannot be cleansed, but are balanced the same way as power damage; condition cleanse only cleanse debuff like vuln, immob, blind, chill, etc… and hybrids like poison).

So each line should be clear: damage, condi, defense, support and class mechanics. Then the elite spec should have a clear role focus.
If you want a mix of offense and defense… well you have 3 lines to choose from, that should be enough, no?

In short, I want DPSer to die fast and not sustain outnumbered for as long as they do now. They should need offensive lines to get good damage, and those lines should be strong enough to be a good choice instead of defensive lines.

On the other hand, tanks should have low damage.

Opportunity cost!